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Diesel Bug and Marine 16 treatment - is it working?


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1 hour ago, IStream said:

Trying to explain why magnetic fuel treatment won't work is just yelling at the tide. This was the original 20th century mass-market conspiracy theory and it's evergreen. All those Qanon poseurs are just Johnny Come Latelies.

Take two fish tanks full of algae. Throw a magnet in one and come back a week later and compare :rolleyes:

There is also the guys that have algae, get a magnet, put in a valve, and run their fuel pump 24/7 valved to return the fuel to the tank, and say LOOK IT WORKED :rolleyes: Yeah, constantly running fuel through the primary filter does help, but helps just as much with no magnet :lol:

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I am a bit worried about responding because this subject does seem to goad some posters into calling me names . It seems to affect their equanimity in some way that I am not using magnets, removing th

I post this in a light hearted way   I think I did not even deserve to be (french)  toasted    I was merely  sharing the unfolding of an experiment I am uniquely positioned to carr

Has the flaming stopped yet?  

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37 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

My desk features a cow magnet on the upper shelf, left side. Zero algae, none. Ergo they work.

Best proof I've ever heard.

You can also store your fuel inside a crystal pyramid, but it has to perfectly aligned with the signs of the Zodiac

The you have the people who put magnets in their shoes.........

FB- Doug

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58 minutes ago, Scrambler said:

Hire the fuel polishing guy and change your oil filters a couple times more and you’ll worry about something else.  I think polishing 32 gallons was under $200 (easy access to tank).   It was cheap peace of mind.

32 gallons =~ 121 litres

So the polishing cost $1.65 per litre.

Dec 2020 average diesel price in Maine was $0.67, which is only 40% of the polishing cost

So if you had given away the old diesel and bought the same amount of new diesel, it would have cost $81.07, saving $119

 

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On 12/27/2020 at 9:54 AM, TwoLegged said:

32 gallons =~ 121 litres

So the polishing cost $1.65 per litre.

Dec 2020 average diesel price in Maine was $0.67, which is only 40% of the polishing cost

So if you had given away the old diesel and bought the same amount of new diesel, it would have cost $81.07, saving $119

 

Not even close to the same thing. A good fuel polisher uses a very high pressure pump compared to what you could DIY that will knock a lot of crap loose and filter it out.

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On 12/24/2020 at 8:12 PM, Ajax said:

So, I took my 5-ton truck and bought 2 tons of palletized fuel in a single trip, at a per-ton discount. By my estimates so far, 2 tons will be barely enough. I might end up running to the store for a week's worth of pellets in April.

I am happy to be living in Brittany where we get mild winters... Here I design from time to time "eco house" and a typical 120-150m2 (1200-1500 sqft) family dwelling can be heated with a stere of dry wood (very roughly a 1/3rd of a cord) for the whole winter. To be completely honest it isn't everybody's house as typically the insulation for these is 370mm of straw or 300mm of wood fibre and the façades are designed so that winter low elevation sun warms up the house.

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Bit of an update on the diesel bug experiment which is more interesting than I would have thought

I have had some marvelous Christmas sails round the estuary.  The engine is ahppy at less than half revs - at higher revs it fuklturates up and down a bit.

 

I added 45 litres of diesel plus 50mm of Marine 16 Biocide to the tank last  week. There was an easterly blowing for a bit so at the peak of the ebb the moorings were getting a bit of chop - enough to agitate the tank.

 

The small variations in revs started to increase a bit.  My son, who lives on a canal boat and has lived with elderly boat diesels for ten years, said that it sounds more like an air leak on the low pressure side of the pump - a suggestion made up thread by one intelligent forumite.  My son asked if I had disturbed any of the connections and of course I had.

I also mentioned up thread about the erratic  changes in the fuel line from imperial to metric - which makesd the connections a bit of a challenge at times.

I unbolted the entire  filter assembly from the bulkhead and brought it up to deck level to clean everything up. The threads were pretty mankie, the compression washers a tad rusty in spots. Not ideal for sealing diesel in and air out. 

I now have a morbid fascination with diesel filters and I eagerly dismantled filter number 4

This is what the top of the fuel  filter looked like - a few strands of black gunge that looked like wet cat poo

S5950001.jpg

I ran a can opener around the rim and, I confess, the inside was pretty ugly - worse than I had expected

S5950002.jpg

 

clearly the microbial debris is on the move

S5950003.jpg

the previous filter, 50 litres earlier,  before looked really clean

S5860002.jpg

 

 

I  brought the imperial filter assembly back to the shed and cleaned it up, the threads were pretty filthy.   Some of the compression washers were tired, everything was torqed down to  buggery - thread sealer had been used with gay abandon . I am awalking in another man's shoes here.

 

I cleaned the threads up, replaced the compression washers, replaced the filter, put everythging back together  and the engine ran very well in all revs - I think I must have had an air leak around the filter somewhere - three weird connectors plus a blank to choose from - probably an own goal as I have been fertling around the filter for a while now.

 

I collected all the  fuel from the filter and let it settle for half an hour

this is what it looks like

S5950005.jpg

the dark stuff at the bottom flows very freely, swirl the jam jar a bit and it moved with the diesel.  I think it would flow down a fuel line rather than block it.

I was surprised that this latest filter had stopped more dirt than the previous one - but I had added more Marine 16, more diesel and the tank had been given a pretty good shaking by easterly wind against tide through the moorings.

I re-assembled everything clean and gently torqued. Bled the system , transformed myself into Mr Anal to clean everything up and fired her up

The engine is now running very well again at all revs with a new filter.

 

 

The capricious nature of the mix of imperial and metric in the fuel supply system is going to an ongoing problem

This evening I hit ebay

I have now ordered 8mm rubber tubing, jubillee clips, in line filters, retaining clips, an inline tap and a racor 500 type top loading filter. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/482720-Racor-Type-FG500-Diesel-Filter-Water-Separator-Fuel/281903899186?epid=1853831503&hash=item41a2c82232:g:0W8AAOSwEaReedBT

I intend to replace the whole fuel system between the tank and the engine.

However, there is not much room to play with and all works are carried out while laying face down across the top of the  engine bay

20201113-100818.jpg

The cutlass gland pump, the steering flex,   the electric pump for the taylor heater and the weed trap for the cooling water intake are all fighting for the same bit of real estate.

 

I admit that the increase in debris between filter 3 and filter four was a set back - beating this thing is not going to be easy, however, as long as I can carry on sailing though the winter I am  happy to let the  marine 16 biocide experiment run until the spring. 

 

Dylan

 

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I think you're turning the corner on this problem... well done.

We haven't taken our boat out in rough weather for a while, need to get it out and slosh the fuel around really well before I change the filter again (annual maintenance).

FB- Doug

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If you move things round so it’s easy to get to the top of the new “Racor” filter your life will turn a corner....

Installed two of those in the Valiant, they work fine.

I left the original real Racor rebuilt and in the locker, in case one of the  fake ones plays up, no problems to date.

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Just now, olaf hart said:

If you move things round so it’s easy to get to the top of the new filter your life will turn a corner....

Same logic I moved my oil filter. Just because some idiot put it in a particular place doesn't mean I have to leave it there.

FKT

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The aftermarket  CAV agglomerator filter heads have the arrows going the wrong way. Fuel should flow down the middle, turn to flow up the element dumping water and other foreign crud on the way. Plumbing this way will also give you new threads to deal with. Originally olives with running nuts were used on most of these and tails are available. 

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You actually are too big on the new Racor. The R120 size would be more appropriate. Sizing matters, as the large system depend on swirling the fuel in the lower level to assist the water dropping out. That 500 series is rated for up to 60 GPH. At the low level of your small engine, the swirl will not be achieved The small unit is for a max of 15 GPH, which is more than ample for your donk.

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3 minutes ago, longy said:

You actually are too big on the new Racor. The R120 size would be more appropriate. Sizing matters, as the large system depend on swirling the fuel in the lower level to assist the water dropping out. That 500 series is rated for up to 60 GPH. At the low level of your small engine, the swirl will not be achieved The small unit is for a max of 15 GPH, which is more than ample for your donk.

I have the R110A because it was originally mounted in the engine compartment. Same flow rate, and it might make the insurers happier.

110A.jpg?w=252&ssl=1

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3 minutes ago, longy said:

You actually are too big on the new Racor. The R120 size would be more appropriate. Sizing matters, as the large system depend on swirling the fuel in the lower level to assist the water dropping out. That 500 series is rated for up to 60 GPH. At the low level of your small engine, the swirl will not be achieved The small unit is for a max of 15 GPH, which is more than ample for your donk.

R120 is the cheaper/less convenient screw on filter style - like the CAV filters he already has. 500 series is the smallest of the "good racors" and will work fine even at small flowrate.

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Don't you still end up with a bunch of diesel to deal with, and an empty filter to prime? On the 500 you remove the top, replace the filter element, then put the cap back on - no draining or priming to worry about. 

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When the lower section clogs up, which can happen over time (or from sucking in lumps, like Dylan has been) you have to remove the entire clear bowl to get it clean. I've had to do this 7 -9 times (different boats) and it is a slow, messy job. With the small filters, everything comes apart for easy cleaning

The check valves in the larger units clog easily, stopping all flow. If you are closer to rated performance, there is more suction, which can move the snot past the valve, allowing it to be spun out or filtered out, neither of which will shut down all flow.

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1 hour ago, andykane said:
1 hour ago, longy said:

You actually are too big on the new Racor. The R120 size would be more appropriate. Sizing matters, as the large system depend on swirling the fuel in the lower level to assist the water dropping out. That 500 series is rated for up to 60 GPH. At the low level of your small engine, the swirl will not be achieved The small unit is for a max of 15 GPH, which is more than ample for your donk.

R120 is the cheaper/less convenient screw on filter style - like the CAV filters he already has. 500 series is the smallest of the "good racors" and will work fine even at small flowrate.

I agree... what you lose with low flow not providing a swirl, you gain with just plain settling. The important thing is to be able to check for water at the bottom of the bowl... sometimes you'll get wet sludge, that's good to get out too but you gotta be careful cleaning and closing the drip valve. But you want good access and the ability to put a cup under it.

Ideally match the rated flow to the filter rating, but they only make certain sizes.  ;)

FB- Doug

 

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

S5950002.jpg

This is just plain nasty. That is a ton of gunk. Keep lots of filters on hand, and do think about scrubbing the inside of the tank.

it is surprisingly horrible - and my confidence wobbled a bit when I saw how bad it was........

an optimist would say that the state of the filter is  a good thing if it means that the marine 16 is  moving  the gunk from the tank walls  to the filter and that the fuel is still flowing - even with the gunk

 

a pessimist will correctly point out that I have no idea how much more there is to come down the turnpike - there could be lbs of the stuff yet to arrive

I will continue the experiment for a bit longer as it allows me to carry on sailing and not remove the engine to get to the tank.

 

I think about cunning - sometimes unworkable -  plans for scrubbing the tank nearly every day

- often while out on the boat, while walking the dog, riding the bike. I have watched youtube videos on tank scrubbing while Jill is watching the third series of the Crown

I am still on the optimist side of the equation

 

D

 

 

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4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I agree... what you lose with low flow not providing a swirl, you gain with just plain settling. The important thing is to be able to check for water at the bottom of the bowl... sometimes you'll get wet sludge, that's good to get out too but you gotta be careful cleaning and closing the drip valve. But you want good access and the ability to put a cup under it.

Ideally match the rated flow to the filter rating, but they only make certain sizes.  ;)

FB- Doug

 

Altho I cannot find (Parker-Hannifin site is not good) any reference to HOW these filters work, I DO remember reading that the swirling action was crucial to allowing micro particles of water to coalesce & get large enuff to fall out of the fuel 

 

7529_BRO_Fuel_Filtration.pdf (parker.com)  See page 11

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5 hours ago, longy said:

Altho I cannot find (Parker-Hannifin site is not good) any reference to HOW these filters work, I DO remember reading that the swirling action was crucial to allowing micro particles of water to coalesce & get large enuff to fall out of the fuel 

 

7529_BRO_Fuel_Filtration.pdf (parker.com)  See page 11

Yes, you're entirely correct about that. Great reference!

The good filter/separators have a very fancy little turbine-like thingie which swirls the flow (the fuel spins, not the thingie) against the outer sides of the separator bowl. The idea is that centrifugal force (yes yes, there's no such thing, but more people know that term than understand angular acceleration) pushes all the water, which is heavier, together where it falls to the bottom.

But at low flow, gravity does the same thing. The big problem comes when a slug of water accumulated in the bottom of the tank and fills up the filter/separator. Some of them have a float valve that shut off (personally I hate those). But the poor filter can't make fuel appear magically when all it gets is dirty water. Yes there's more fuel coming! This is when being able to drain the bowl quickly and relatively easily becomes critical.

FB- Doug

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15 hours ago, dylan winter said:

it is surprisingly horrible - and my confidence wobbled a bit when I saw how bad it was........

an optimist would say that the state of the filter is  a good thing if it means that the marine 16 is  moving  the gunk from the tank walls  to the filter and that the fuel is still flowing - even with the gunk

 

a pessimist will correctly point out that I have no idea how much more there is to come down the turnpike - there could be lbs of the stuff yet to arrive

I will continue the experiment for a bit longer as it allows me to carry on sailing and not remove the engine to get to the tank.

 

I think about cunning - sometimes unworkable -  plans for scrubbing the tank nearly every day

- often while out on the boat, while walking the dog, riding the bike. I have watched youtube videos on tank scrubbing while Jill is watching the third series of the Crown

I am still on the optimist side of the equation

 

D

 

 

I have wondered about putting a handful of 1/2" ball bearings in the tank...should clean the bottom, if nothing else.

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8 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I have wondered about putting a handful of 1/2" ball bearings in the tank...should clean the bottom, if nothing else.

That would certainly help with the cleaning.    But unless there's a clear path to retrieval of the ball bearings, the rattling will eventually drive you mad.

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4 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

That would certainly help with the cleaning.    But unless there's a clear path to retrieval of the ball bearings, the rattling will eventually drive you mad.

You could use a magnet if the tank is aluminum or plastic.

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1 minute ago, slap said:
7 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

That would certainly help with the cleaning.    But unless there's a clear path to retrieval of the ball bearings, the rattling will eventually drive you mad.

You could use a magnet if the tank is aluminum or plastic.

And if you had access to the tank ... which Dylan doesn't.

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16 hours ago, longy said:

Altho I cannot find (Parker-Hannifin site is not good) any reference to HOW these filters work, I DO remember reading that the swirling action was crucial to allowing micro particles of water to coalesce & get large enuff to fall out of the fuel 

Eh, I don't think so. It's marketing. We had a Yanmar 3GM and a Racor 500. It collected LOTS of water. I'm sure the fuel flow was so slow (~2 G/Hr) that no swirling takes place. The volume of the filter bowl is big enough for water to separate from oil just due to gravity during its time in the filter. 

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Have to agree with Zonker, if you look at the flow rating of most bowl style racors the application is usually nowhere close.  About the only spinning to get water out is a centrifuge.  You can get water stripping paper elements, they work quite well and are common in hydraulics as a redundant filtering.  Also see them on mid size OEM engines.  I would use in series with a micron element, but a bowl style racor is still hands down the best.

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Dylan

For what its worth, I removed the engine from my boat a couple of years ago.  I worried a lot that winter but in the end  the whole process was quite straight forward and went surprisingly well.

Cheers

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12 minutes ago, py26129 said:

Dylan

For what its worth, I removed the engine from my boat a couple of years ago.  I worried a lot that winter but in the end  the whole process was quite straight forward and went surprisingly well.

Cheers

Are you going to reinstall it at some point?

 

 

:ph34r:

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Racor turbine series will certainly provide great filtration but how much fuel flow returns to the tank to continue the clean up process? If its mostly leakoff from injectors then it will take a long time to do anything.  The 500FG & 500MA did come with 2 micron elements from new in the past which is way to fine for your purpose, 30 would be better . Would respectfully suggest running all this contaminated fuel through your diesel heater onboard which will be less fussy and run a portable tank for the engine. When the boat tank is empty dose, clean and syphon out dose again then when confident all is clear hook back up to the engine. The bug has acids as a byproduct that can be hard on injection components. Happy sailing

 

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6 hours ago, dylan winter said:

Youtube fed me this video

The bloke is removing gunge with a Trowell

i hope mine is not as bad

I also hope it's nowhere near as bad.

But the problem is that unless and until you have actually been able to visually inspect the inside of the tank, you will never know for certain whether the tank is genuinely clean as a whistle, or whether there are still vast lumps of crud which have not yet been dislodged.

Is there any way that you can get some sort of endoscope in there?  A quick search suggests that there are viable endoscopes available for less than £50.

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9 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

And if you had access to the tank ... which Dylan doesn't.

If the fuel fill hose has a fairly direct path to the tank, a magnet on a line, dropped through the filler, might (or might not) work.

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1 hour ago, slap said:

If the fuel fill hose has a fairly direct path to the tank, a magnet on a line, dropped through the filler, might (or might not) work.

there's a lotta ifs in that chain.

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12 hours ago, py26129 said:

Dylan

For what its worth, I removed the engine from my boat a couple of years ago.  I worried a lot that winter but in the end  the whole process was quite straight forward and went surprisingly well.

Cheers

I can get my engine out of the engine room and sitting in the cockpit working solo in about 45 minutes. I have a straight shot with the main halyard and it fits right out. With the manifold, alternator, and starter off it weighs about 240 pound maybe???

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57 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I can get my engine out of the engine room and sitting in the cockpit working solo in about 45 minutes. I have a straight shot with the main halyard and it fits right out. With the manifold, alternator, and starter off it weighs about 240 pound maybe???

Sounds like you are well-practised.  How long did it take the first time?

The first time I had to dismantle my Honda suitcase generator, it took me ten hours to get it taken apart and reassembled.  Those things are packed tight, so there was endless cross--checking with Youtube videos and blog write-ups.

By the fourth time, it was a relaxing 30-minute job.

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17 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Sounds like you are well-practised.  How long did it take the first time?

The first time I had to dismantle my Honda suitcase generator, it took me ten hours to get it taken apart and reassembled.  Those things are packed tight, so there was endless cross--checking with Youtube videos and blog write-ups.

By the fourth time, it was a relaxing 30-minute job.

Probably 4 hours the first time. Lots of nuts and bolts that hadn't been touched in decades!

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15 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Probably 4 hours the first time. Lots of nuts and bolts that hadn't been touched in decades!

Are you well-practised with engines generally?

If I had to do a task like that, I'd be very jittery about every step of the operation ... and would only start after at least four works of triple-checking that my lifting gear was solid enough and sufficiently foolproof that I wasn't going to drop the heavy engine through some chunk of the fibreglass.

So for anything big I hide my spanners and boiler suit, put on a nice smile, and find a spanner-man to do it.

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58 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Sounds like you are well-practised.  How long did it take the first time?

The first time I had to dismantle my Honda suitcase generator, it took me ten hours to get it taken apart and reassembled.  Those things are packed tight, so there was endless cross--checking with Youtube videos and blog write-ups.

By the fourth time, it was a relaxing 30-minute job.

I'll probably regret asking this but why would you need to dismantle a famously-reliable Honda generator four times?

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57 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Are you well-practised with engines generally?

If I had to do a task like that, I'd be very jittery about every step of the operation ... and would only start after at least four works of triple-checking that my lifting gear was solid enough and sufficiently foolproof that I wasn't going to drop the heavy engine through some chunk of the fibreglass.

So for anything big I hide my spanners and boiler suit, put on a nice smile, and find a spanner-man to do it.

I rebuilt an MG and a Porsche with my own hands, so I don't have wrench-phobia. Also the number of marine mechanics who know anything at all about Atomic 4s is vanishingly small, the only thing they will do is point at it, scream HELP IT WILL EXPLODE DANGER DANGER please write me a check for $20,000 and I'll have you a new engine in there :rolleyes: If you want the engine fixed right, you are fixing it yourself. Fortunately they are simple engines and not hard to work on, but like every engine if it is a raw water cooled version the salt water eventually rots it beyond repair and out it comes.

 

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45 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I rebuilt an MG and a Porsche with my own hands, so I don't have wrench-phobia

I guessed you had prior skills, but that sounds to me like very skilled.  Several leagues beyond I'd contemplate undertaking.  I presume that Dylan has more mechanical skill than I do ('cos my skills are pretty abysmal and deployed with great reluctance only under the duress of no way of getting anyone else to fix it) ... but from what I read of his approach, he doesn't seem to be someone who makes a habit of rebuilding machinery, let alone of actively enjoying it.  (No offence intended, Dylan, and sorry if I misunderstood you). 

So I understand Dylan's reluctance to dismantle everything.  For someone who doesn't enjoy fettling and isn't well-practised in it, this removal would be a big task. Sadly, I fear that something like that is going to be needed to get his new boat to the point of having a fuel system which he knows to be clean and reliable.

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Just now, TwoLegged said:

I guessed you had prior skills, but that sounds to me like very skilled.  Several leagues beyond I'd contemplate undertaking.  I presume that Dylan has more mechanical skill than I do ('cos my skills are pretty abysmal and deployed with great reluctance only under the duress of no way of getting anyone else to fix it) ... but from what I read of his approach, he doesn't seem to be someone who makes a habit of rebuilding machinery, let alone of actively enjoying it.  (No offence intended, Dylan, and sorry if I misunderstood you). 

So I understand Dylan's reluctance to dismantle everything.  For someone who doesn't enjoy fettling and isn't well-practised in it, this removal would be a big task. Sadly, I fear that something like that is going to be needed to get his new boat to the point of having a fuel system which he knows to be clean and reliable.

When faced with the exact same situation on a friends boat that would have required an engine removal AND cutting the tank out of fiberglass, we thought about it, looked at it, realized said friend used the motor for getting a few miles out of his creek to sail and not much else, and said "F THAT" and installed a new 10 gallon tank someplace else. 10 gallons was like a 2 month supply for him and it worked perfectly.

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14 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

When faced with the exact same situation on a friends boat that would have required an engine removal AND cutting the tank out of fiberglass, we thought about it, looked at it, realized said friend used the motor for getting a few miles out of his creek to sail and not much else, and said "F THAT" and installed a new 10 gallon tank someplace else. 10 gallons was like a 2 month supply for him and it worked perfectly.

Good solution for that usage.  But it's not really an option for Dylan, is it?

He wants this boat to propel a heavy motorsailer long distances around the rugged Scottish coast, with big seas and some serious tideraces.  10 gallons might not get him very far.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

I guessed you had prior skills, but that sounds to me like very skilled.  Several leagues beyond I'd contemplate undertaking.  I presume that Dylan has more mechanical skill than I do ('cos my skills are pretty abysmal and deployed with great reluctance only under the duress of no way of getting anyone else to fix it) ... but from what I read of his approach, he doesn't seem to be someone who makes a habit of rebuilding machinery, let alone of actively enjoying it.  (No offence intended, Dylan, and sorry if I misunderstood you). 

So I understand Dylan's reluctance to dismantle everything.  For someone who doesn't enjoy fettling and isn't well-practised in it, this removal would be a big task. Sadly, I fear that something like that is going to be needed to get his new boat to the point of having a fuel system which he knows to be clean and reliable.

 

50 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Good solution for that usage.  But it's not really an option for Dylan, is it?

He wants this boat to propel a heavy motorsailer long distances around the rugged Scottish coast, with big seas and some serious tideraces.  10 gallons might not get him very far.

I would rather sail than fettle  that is for sure. I do not mind a  bit of varnishing or painting but fettling engines gives me very little happiness - so the longer I can keep on sailing and at the same  time persuade myself that the marine 16 chemistry is slowly solving the  problem then I will carry on with the winter sailing.

If thing do not impreoove  then I think I will set up a high volume 12 volt fuel scrubber and see if I can remove more gunge.  The fuel filler pipe comes from the stern bench down to the tank - where it enters after an elegant right angle.  This would allow me to hang upside down in the stern locker and joggle the suction end of a filter system into as many corners as I can get it to.

I will do that in March. I am currently using about 50  litres of fuel a month so I have 100 litres to run around the sytem before then.

If that still does not work then it is plan C which is to attack the boat and the tank with a jig saw and get access to the tank.

 -  perhaps a hatch in the floor of the cockpit. I am not keen on this plan as I have lived with floor hatches.  Mine needed replacing as it lived in a place where it got a lot of hard knocks and also was a bit of a toe stubber.

 

I could do the 10 litre  jerry can trick - that would get me five to seven hours of motoring - which is enough to get by on.

 

The last image of that filter was a bit of a shame -  deffo a step backwards.   When I saw how bad it was I tidied up, got in the dinghy, rowed home and then took the labrador for a walk. She is a good listener - but  seldom comes up with a good solution of her own - she helps  me to put things in perspective.

 

the tank had been topped up and was almost full when we got an easterly through the moorings. Not as rough as the north sea but still good enough to shake stuff  around - so it is being loosened.

When I replace the fuel lines and fit a top loading filter  then changing filters will be much quicker, cheaper and less messy affair.. This plan will work okay as long as I do not get any fuel pipe blockages - although the stuff coming down the tubes seems to be pretty free flowing. 

The engine has only actually stopped completely just the first time in the dark just off Cromer 

since then, in the run up to replacing filters  and the rev fluctuations generally start at the top end of the revs and drop by ten per cent of so before coming back 

these symptoms  last for about half an hour beofre the engine slows to  sustainable revs just above tickover.  So far,  an engine stopping problem has not yet just emerged out of the blue with a sudden stop..  So that will give me time to either quickly swap a top loading filter or fire hp the Tohatsu  with its 4 knots through the water.

Dylan

PS - I  counted 200 avocets on the estuary  over christmas - plus there are lapwings, knots, geese, 60 curlew, teal,  widgeon and between six and eight adolescent seals that have been kicked out of the main colony on the walton backwaters. None of these are visible from the boatyard.

 

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Dude - you are eventually going to spend MORE money on fuel filters than a fuel polisher would charge you. You could possibly have enough goo to clog 10 filters or 20 or 50 :o

BTW - I have it easy with birds, they hang out on the breakwater about 1200 feet from my slip:

image.png.9631a00497c4854cb6687e919044c06c.png

image.png.676a62966bbe9052ddff48aa9276cd8c.png

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3 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

Local man wants 200 quid for the job

Filters are 8 quid a pop

I am on filter number 5

D

 

I would do the 200 in a heartbeat. You are already 40 in and have a potentially long future of messy filter changing and engine failures ahead of you. That is a bargain if it clears everything up and if it doesn't your chemical scheme REALLY isn't going to.

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On 12/31/2020 at 4:38 PM, dylan winter said:

it is surprisingly horrible - and my confidence wobbled a bit when I saw how bad it was........

an optimist would say that the state of the filter is  a good thing if it means that the marine 16 is  moving  the gunk from the tank walls  to the filter and that the fuel is still flowing - even with the gunk

 

a pessimist will correctly point out that I have no idea how much more there is to come down the turnpike - there could be lbs of the stuff yet to arrive

I will continue the experiment for a bit longer as it allows me to carry on sailing and not remove the engine to get to the tank.

 

I think about cunning - sometimes unworkable -  plans for scrubbing the tank nearly every day

- often while out on the boat, while walking the dog, riding the bike. I have watched youtube videos on tank scrubbing while Jill is watching the third series of the Crown

I am still on the optimist side of the equation

 

D

 

 

You are seeing this crud on the top of the filter as it is plumbed incorrectly, all should collect in the glass bowl or on the bottom of this spiral wound filter media. Top should be clean.

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8 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

If thing do not impreoove  then I think I will set up a high volume 12 volt fuel scrubber and see if I can remove more gunge.  The fuel filler pipe comes from the stern bench down to the tank - where it enters after an elegant right angle.  This would allow me to hang upside down in the stern locker and joggle the suction end of a filter system into as many corners as I can get it to.

That option sounds good, in that you have a path to fuel scrubbing without cutting things apart.  But KIS and the others may be right that hiring a fuel polisher would be cheaper and more effective.

Your woes have prompted me do some googling, and two key things I found are that

  1. quayside supplies of diesel are often of poorer quality than road diesel, due to lower turnover and sometimes to it being transported in dodgy barges.  There may be a case for where possible buying diesel in jerrycans from road filling stations, to avoid the drama of the recontamination which several posters in other forums reported.
    (That's what I do with my tractor, 'cos it's mostly just used as a giant wheelbarrow and my consumption isn't high enough to justify bulk deliveries to a tank where it could grow bugs and someone might steal the fuel.  I adopted this approach simply 'cos it was cheaper to set up, but in time I realised that it had other virtues)
  2. Plenty of posters claim that installing a permanently-mounted homemade fuel-polishing system may be neither complex nor expensive: a pump, a few filters, and some piping.  If you have space somewhere to install such a setup, you could have a permanent solution to let you polish the fuel every week, and catch any recurring problems before the dirty fuel gets anywhere near your engine.
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7 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

You are seeing this crud on the top of the filter as it is plumbed incorrectly, all should collect in the glass bowl or on the bottom of this spiral wound filter media. Top should be clean.

image.png.c7190438df9e40b0f5ffc3b33a9ecdd4.png

I have seen some filters with the in/out ports labeled backwards!

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12 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

image.png.c7190438df9e40b0f5ffc3b33a9ecdd4.png

I have seen some filters with the in/out ports labeled backwards!

These CAV filters are different to a standard pleated filter that flow mostly from the outside in. They are spiral wound and should flow from the bottom up, you can see the construction in some of the shots that Dylan put up when he dismantled it. A simple fix to plumb correctly that will give longer filter life. Put a restriction gauge in the system and only change on that not visual will get the best life from these filters.

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8 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

You are seeing this crud on the top of the filter as it is plumbed incorrectly, all should collect in the glass bowl or on the bottom of this spiral wound filter media. Top should be clean.

I hope not......

it would be good if it is though

 

I re-assembled the filter  it the way it was fitted as that is where the copper pipes lead to

, the mix of imperial and metric suggests that there has been quite a bit of fiddly diddly by elderly owners going on down in the intimate bowells of my engine orifice

I shall look very carefully

 

D

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1 hour ago, dylan winter said:

I hope not......

it would be good if it is though

 

I re-assembled the filter  it the way it was fitted as that is where the copper pipes lead to

, the mix of imperial and metric suggests that there has been quite a bit of fiddly diddly by elderly owners going on down in the intimate bowells of my engine orifice

I shall look very carefully

 

D

You will find that the arrows cast into the housing are incorrect, this was discovered years ago but they still make the generic/aftermarket ones incorrectly. How does water get into the glass bowl if it is plumbed as per the arrows?

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6 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

You will find that the arrows cast into the housing are incorrect, this was discovered years ago but they still make the generic/aftermarket ones incorrectly. How does water get into the glass bowl if it is plumbed as per the arrows?

The arrows on the casting are wrong!!!!!!

Are you sure of this?

Seems astonishing

d

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1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

You will find that the arrows cast into the housing are incorrect, this was discovered years ago but they still make the generic/aftermarket ones incorrectly. How does water get into the glass bowl if it is plumbed as per the arrows?

The water passes through,  only the particles are retained in the filter. that's how the Lucas type agglomerating filters work.  The fuel correctly enters at the top, water is passed and agglomerated by the filter element and is retained in the bowl.

I prefer the Racor/Parker turbine filter setup which retains dirt crud and water before passing through the filter. I think you are getting confused with that setup.

 

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5 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

You will find that the arrows cast into the housing are incorrect, this was discovered years ago but they still make the generic/aftermarket ones incorrectly. How does water get into the glass bowl if it is plumbed as per the arrows?

Seriously?!!???!  I find this beyond absurd.  But I think I came across a previous owner  who ‘knew’ this years (many) ago.  Did a delivery that was having the same type issues on a boat that had ‘original’ fuel in the tanks.  The owner threw a couple ‘extra’ filters of a different type on the boat ‘just in case’. After using the couple spares already on board, I resorted to the other style of filter and headed into Newport, OR where I bought a case of filters.  In putting back the original filter housings, I discovered that the hoses wouldn’t fit.  Turns out they had been running the fuel backwards into the filter.  Once I rectified that problem, I finished the trip with a full case of spare filters minus the one new one I had used.  Filters don’t like to run backwards....

 

On another note:  On my 41’ cruising cat, I specified dual fuel filters so that I could bypass a plugged one immediately and change out the other filter at my convenience.  Came in handy once when I had a clogged filter while underway.  The good news was that it didn’t happen at an in opportune time and I had this setup on both engines.  Strongly recommend.

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47 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I like to see what it is catching:

image.png.73d8386dfa74e2896c5166386f6a01e5.png

On the subject of Racor filters, does anyone believe the metal 'heat shield' that sits around the bowl on the marine version (e.g. the 500MA model) serves any useful purpose other than regulatory compliance? It seems to me that the shield would do F-all in an engine room fire and it just makes visual inspection of the bowl more awkward.

image.png.80cb63cc69c0e1d51852f9c2a62f35ac.png

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Just thinking aloud here Dylan but have you tried this  little experiment with the contaminated diesel:

1. take a couple of jars of the contaminated diesel making sure to get some of the gunk that's collected in the filter.

2. pour a litte of the Marine 16 into one jar.

3. Close the tops and shake both jars to simulate rocking about on the North Sea/ mooring

4. let both jars settle for a time

5. see what happens to the gunk

6. then go and clean your tank

 

All the best

R

 

on a more useful level, as you may remember I had terrible diesel bug in my first Mirror...... I cleaned it out by getting a small pump that attached to the end of a drill, a couple of lenghts of 1/2" garden hose and some jubilee clips. I poked one end of the hose into the tank via the filler... like you have it was the only way in... and sucked out as much as i could into a spare 25ltr container all the while jiggling the hose about to stir up the gunk that had settled at the bottom of the tank. LOads of crud came out... I let the 'decanted' diesel settle for a couple of days and then , reversing the process, pumped the clean element of the diesel back into the tank....againg agitating the hose as much as possible to try and stir up as much crubbage in the tanks as I could. I cleaned the 25ltr container and repeated the process maybe 4, 5 or 6 times. In the end no more gunk came out, not saying there was none left in the tank but no more came out. Changed both filters, refilled with fresh clean diesel and no more problems... I have to say that I had brought the boat ashore while I was doing this so it was quite a bit easier than doing it on your mooring.

 

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do

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10 hours ago, MikeJohns said:

The water passes through,  only the particles are retained in the filter. that's how the Lucas type agglomerating filters work.  The fuel correctly enters at the top, water is passed and agglomerated by the filter element and is retained in the bowl.

I prefer the Racor/Parker turbine filter setup which retains dirt crud and water before passing through the filter. I think you are getting confused with that setup.

 

The water passes through the filter, interesting? Next time you have one of these filters apart have a good look at how they work then you may want to make comment. The fuel should turn to drop the water (heavier than diesel) and some of the debris in the fuel in the glass bowl,  to do this is must go down the inside of the filter and then up through the element, remember this is not a pleated element like most filters. You believe what you want to, that is your right but you may learn from the experience of others?

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6 hours ago, Veeger said:

Seriously?!!???!  I find this beyond absurd.  But I think I came across a previous owner  who ‘knew’ this years (many) ago.  Did a delivery that was having the same type issues on a boat that had ‘original’ fuel in the tanks.  The owner threw a couple ‘extra’ filters of a different type on the boat ‘just in case’. After using the couple spares already on board, I resorted to the other style of filter and headed into Newport, OR where I bought a case of filters.  In putting back the original filter housings, I discovered that the hoses wouldn’t fit.  Turns out they had been running the fuel backwards into the filter.  Once I rectified that problem, I finished the trip with a full case of spare filters minus the one new one I had used.  Filters don’t like to run backwards....

 

On another note:  On my 41’ cruising cat, I specified dual fuel filters so that I could bypass a plugged one immediately and change out the other filter at my convenience.  Came in handy once when I had a clogged filter while underway.  The good news was that it didn’t happen at an in opportune time and I had this setup on both engines.  Strongly recommend.

Yes totally absurd, carry on as you were!

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How about making your own “settling jar” and plumbing it before the CAV filter, just a big airtight jar with a couple of hoses sealed into the lid, the intake goes close to the bottom, the outlet about half way up.

The solid crud would collect in the jar and you just unscrew it and empty it, refill the jar and screw the lid back on.

Filter would last much longer.

Anyone seen a commercial version of this? There must be something used for tractors and trucks and that sort of thing.

As an aside, is there anything that “ dissolves” crud on the bottom of a tank?  Dylan could run the engine on an old 20 litre outboard tank with an extra inlet for the fuel return while a dissolving solution slowly cleans his main tank out with agitation on the mooring, then drain out the crap and refill it with clean diesel.

I wonder if petrol would work, or toluene or something like that.

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On 1/1/2021 at 7:03 AM, TwoLegged said:

I also hope it's nowhere near as bad.

But the problem is that unless and until you have actually been able to visually inspect the inside of the tank, you will never know for certain whether the tank is genuinely clean as a whistle, or whether there are still vast lumps of crud which have not yet been dislodged.

Is there any way that you can get some sort of endoscope in there?  A quick search suggests that there are viable endoscopes available for less than £50.

+ 1 for the endoscope. (Ok, maybe I am biased :) ). 

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I was sucked into the CAV filter rabbit hole last night, after the comments on reversing the flow.

Looks like the biodiesel people are doing it to extend filter life, but they don’t have water problems in their fuel. It is possible for water to make it through the filter into the injectors if flow is reversed.

The agglomerator ones are supposed to run as advertised, with flow from the top down like Mike Johns advised, and there is also an issue with different aftermarket filter cartridges. The originals are spiral wound, and some aftermarket ones are pleated, just to confuse us more.

My take on the whole story is to replace my last one with another Racor and use up the remaining CAV filters on a portable fuel cleaning setup.

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11 hours ago, dylan winter said:

I am not  casting doubt On this revelation

But

I  am unable to find evidence of this on the web

D

Dylan, take my advice as you see fit. It was my attempt to assist in this situation from many years of experience, just because it is not on the internet doesn’t mean it doesn’t have some truth to it. Humour me by tracing the fuel flow through the filter the next time you have it apart, why would the design have all the crud dropped into the top when there is a collection method before the filter? Not as sophisticated as the Racor but similar in that the fuel is directed in a way to drop crud and water prior to the element to increase the life of the element. The genuine 7111-296 CAV elements are very good, down to 5 micron, through the spiral wrap design have a large surface area. Happy sailing 

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6 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

On the subject of Racor filters, does anyone believe the metal 'heat shield' that sits around the bowl on the marine version (e.g. the 500MA model) serves any useful purpose other than regulatory compliance?

No, I doubt it is useful. Been haunting the dollar stores for a small s.s. mixing bow to use on ours. (Racor wants silly money for one)

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If you search for how CAV filters work on the YBW Forum there is a snip from an old CAV manual that says I am totally wrong. I stand corrected but will leave my filter as is as it works.

 

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2 minutes ago, Zonker said:

No, I doubt it is useful. Been haunting the dollar stores for a small s.s. mixing bow to use on ours. (Racor wants silly money for one)

Our local Salvation Army store has all sorts of those, cheap.

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41 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

If you search for how CAV filters work on the YBW Forum there is a snip from an old CAV manual that says I am totally wrong. I stand corrected but will leave my filter as is as it works.

Thank you, Horse.  I admire the integrity of someone who researches their own contested claim, and then posts their own retraction.  

i had no particular interest in the filter-flow-direction question ... but your post makes me feel better about the world.  

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19 hours ago, olaf hart said:

How about making your own “settling jar” and plumbing it before the CAV filter, just a big airtight jar with a couple of hoses sealed into the lid, the intake goes close to the bottom, the outlet about half way up.

The solid crud would collect in the jar and you just unscrew it and empty it, refill the jar and screw the lid back on.

Filter would last much longer.

Anyone seen a commercial version of this? There must be something used for tractors and trucks and that sort of thing.

As an aside, is there anything that “ dissolves” crud on the bottom of a tank?  Dylan could run the engine on an old 20 litre outboard tank with an extra inlet for the fuel return while a dissolving solution slowly cleans his main tank out with agitation on the mooring, then drain out the crap and refill it with clean diesel.

I wonder if petrol would work, or toluene or something like that.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sediment-Bowl/293690643596?hash=item446153948c:g:XGkAAOSwJGRfNtIB

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Glass-Sediment-Bowl-Fuel-Filter/224001313066?hash=item342784c92a:g:3lQAAOSwCppei0yZ

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Sediment-Bowl-Assembly-for-Case-International-370832R91/143897153890?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20201210111314%26meid%3D3fccabc1cfb44b5494b9680ab60f4f36%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D133616900967%26itm%3D143897153890%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithDarwoV3BBEV2b&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851

Plenty of these to be found, search on "sediment bowl".

Also look for one of these or similar: https://www.amazon.com/Seesi-Endoscope-Waterproof-Inspection-Semi-Rigid/dp/B07PBF6DX5/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=endoscope&qid=1609693697&sr=8-6

You might be able to see what is down there.

In the end this will turn into days and days screwing around spending 199 quid to avoid paying the cleaner truck 200 quid.
 

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