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Mizzen staysail question


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Ok I should go & look this up myself, but I am sure someone here would love to show their superior knowledge in much less time than it would take me to follow all of the possible leads..

Doing the Launceston to Hobart this year,  (assuming I can still get into Tas by Monday arvo).  Ride is a 1959 S&S yawl, too pretty to turn down.  This is my 1st time offshore on a split rig & there is a risk that I may spend some time as "bowman on the back rig"

I am old enough to remember tacking staysails to the rail when running square on IOR boats,  and know that this is now frowned upon by the rule makers,  (not really an issue as who runs square in less than  about 35 nowadays anyway).  This boat has a mizzen staysail & it just struck me that the rule about flying headsails from the centreline may not apply to the little mast down the back.

Anyone regularly sail a split rig who has researched this?

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1 hour ago, DRIFTW00D said:

 mt_logo_display.phpWINDROSE     660Ashok Mani

SS 48, Winner Admirals Cup 1961. Sweet ride. Go Fast!

mt_photo.php?boid=12067

 

 

Make sure you take a shovel to fill in the hole in the ocean you're digging.

(Actually a very sweet looking ride  But with that split backstay and the dodger, I'm not sure how you'd rig a staysail to weather.)

 

This is how the big boys did it.

th-1.jpeg

yysw273532.jpg

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That was my thought too.  I haven't been onboard yet,

Was just concerned that IRC says that headsails need to be tacked on the centre line,  not to the rail like IOR allowed.

If this continues to the little mast staysail will be of much less use. And finding a strong enough tack point may become an issue.

And yes she is pretty,  main reason for doing the trip,  along with the fact that that it was Chas (from Tas) that was throwing invites to a bunch of old mates.

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10 hours ago, TUBBY said:

Ok I should go & look this up myself, but I am sure someone here would love to show their superior knowledge in much less time than it would take me to follow all of the possible leads..

Doing the Launceston to Hobart this year,  (assuming I can still get into Tas by Monday arvo).  Ride is a 1959 S&S yawl, too pretty to turn down.  This is my 1st time offshore on a split rig & there is a risk that I may spend some time as "bowman on the back rig"

I am old enough to remember tacking staysails to the rail when running square on IOR boats,  and know that this is now frowned upon by the rule makers,  (not really an issue as who runs square in less than  about 35 nowadays anyway).  This boat has a mizzen staysail & it just struck me that the rule about flying headsails from the centreline may not apply to the little mast down the back.

Anyone regularly sail a split rig who has researched this?

 

Don’t know the rules 

staysails like the windward rail 

Mainmast backstay  is an issue to consider

 

D45F071F-16C7-4B0F-BA2E-3C2A8768CE25.jpeg

97D6BB13-BE87-4351-AC67-D041803A07EE.jpeg

0A6849B1-29BD-4756-9408-B8A3B76371FB.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Al Paca said:

Backstay not a problem. Tack should be on the cabin top, outboard. Maybe that midships fair lead in the topsides. 

Do you mean the hawse hole?  Pretty sure thoe aren;t designed for uplift.

 

I can't see if there's a triatic stay on that NZL1 with the blue kites.  That can be a nice solution to the main backstay/mizzen staysail problem..  

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57 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

I can't see if there's a triatic stay on that NZL1 with the blue kites.  That can be a nice solution to the main backstay/mizzen staysail problem..  

New Zealand Endeavour did not have a triactic (a stay between the top of the Main and the top of the Mizzen).  It did have a "mizzen forestay," which ran from the top of the mizzen (which was basically a Volvo 60 mast) down to about 5 feet astern of the traveler; we actually flew the mizzen stay sail #3 and #4 off of that.  The other mizzen stay sails (#1 #2 and #2VL) were on furlers and tacked to weather most of the time, as were the reaching and running mizzen spinnakers which we referred to (perhaps incorrectly) as mizzen gennakers.

10 minutes ago, Al Paca said:

Yeah. Great photos. Passage doing a reported 23 knots there. Rex Banks driving. 

Rex Banks -- Top Ten Coolest Guys Ever.

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Mizzen staysails are not headsails, are they?  Though IRC has been mentioned,  are we sure what rule/class the OP's boat is sailing in? Entry list doesn't show the classes.https://www.topyacht.com.au/db/kb/entrants_display.php?EventID=1326  The NOR calls for IRC, ORCi,  or AMS. https://l2h-dssinc.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-L2H-Notice-of-Race-FINAL.pdf Rules on mizzen staysails are probably similar for all three, but you need to look at the fine print to make sure. It isn't likely they'd want to race in IRC with a S&S leadmine, but who knows? 

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Mizzen staysails seem to fall into a black hole as far as the IRC and RRS are concerned.  IRC recognizes that they exist.  Their rule 21.1.4 requires that they be declared, and IRC's  section A6-Sails-Headsails  includes measurements LLY and LPY  (longest luff length and longest luff perpendicular) for them.  According to the IRC definition in section A5 Headsail, however, since the mizzen staysail is not flown from the foremost mast, they are not headsails.  IRC rule 21.3 does call for sails to be sheeted according to RRS rule 50, which states that headsails have be be tacked on or close to the centerline.  Rule 50 does not mention mizzen staysails, and since the IRC doesn't consider them headsails, it would seem that you can tack the thing wherever you think it will do the most good. Just don't use an outrigger. Good luck!  

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Thanks Paul,

That was my initial thought too.  But as someone who usually only has one stick to put the rags on I hadn't thought too seriously about it.

I was hoping that someone on here used one of these regularly and would have the answer to hand.  Not too many yawls in regular IRC racing I guess.

But she is too pretty & has too much history to pass up a ride when I wasn't doing the Sydney Hobart, as specially with blokes like Chas & his mates aboard.

Now all we need is some breeze from aft of the beam to try it out.

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You may not have much to worry about.  The skipper probably knows where he likes it to go.  The luff wire may be a set length, and to get it hoisted tight, the tack will have to be in a certain place.  There may not be a toerail to attach it to - allowing you to vary the tack along the length- only stanchion bases or padeyes. The fun comes with sheeting it.  We hoisted a staysail once and found that it worked best in terms of boatspeed, adding about .25 knots,  by having it luffing for about half its length.  Tightening the sheet to fill the sail reduced speed by .25 knots.  Taking it down reduced speed by .25 knots. Letting the entire sail luff reduced speed by .25 knots.  It was an ongoing two-day experiment. 

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On 12/18/2020 at 8:31 PM, slug zitski said:

 

 

 

0A6849B1-29BD-4756-9408-B8A3B76371FB.jpeg

 

ACTAEA.    Bermuda 40   VERY modified.   Has won all the major East Coast/Chesapeake Races.   Got to trim Mizzen on her for a race a few years ago which was pretty cool as we only flew the #3 jib and the mizzen.  Gusts in the 40's.

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38 minutes ago, sailordave said:

 

ACTAEA.    Bermuda 40   VERY modified.   Has won all the major East Coast/Chesapeake Races.   Got to trim Mizzen on her for a race a few years ago which was pretty cool as we only flew the #3 jib and the mizzen.  Gusts in the 40's.

What sort of mods?

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What happened Tubby? image.thumb.png.329ddec1ba2b59e73c46b31e4e4c0bf7.png

Edit:

Sorry to read this 

"Retirement.
At 13:00, the Windrose skipper advised that they were retiring from the race as a precautionary measure after identifying some issues of concern with the boat.
They are returning to Beauty Point without assistance and all are well.
Bad luck to the Windrose crew."
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On 12/20/2020 at 5:56 AM, PaulK said:

You may not have much to worry about.  The skipper probably knows where he likes it to go.  The luff wire may be a set length, and to get it hoisted tight, the tack will have to be in a certain place.  There may not be a toerail to attach it to - allowing you to vary the tack along the length- only stanchion bases or padeyes. The fun comes with sheeting it.  We hoisted a staysail once and found that it worked best in terms of boatspeed, adding about .25 knots,  by having it luffing for about half its length.  Tightening the sheet to fill the sail reduced speed by .25 knots.  Taking it down reduced speed by .25 knots. Letting the entire sail luff reduced speed by .25 knots.  It was an ongoing two-day experiment. 

Never oversheet a staysail.  

But the general rule of thumb with staysails and bloopers is that you gain .25 knot when you set it and you gain .25 knot when you take it down.  You can see how following this to the logical conclusion might thoroughly tire out the bowman.  Thus keeping the owner's daughter safe.  Thus the enthusiasm for staysails among the afterguard.

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On 12/18/2020 at 8:31 PM, slug zitski said:

0A6849B1-29BD-4756-9408-B8A3B76371FB.jpeg

 

20 hours ago, sailordave said:

 

ACTAEA.    Bermuda 40   VERY modified.   Has won all the major East Coast/Chesapeake Races.   Got to trim Mizzen on her for a race a few years ago which was pretty cool as we only flew the #3 jib and the mizzen.  Gusts in the 40's.

Very cool setup, lotsa slot effects going on, would be a bitch in variable conditions!

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On 12/26/2020 at 10:05 PM, ALL@SEA said:

What happened Tubby? image.thumb.png.329ddec1ba2b59e73c46b31e4e4c0bf7.png

Edit:

Sorry to read this 

"Retirement.
At 13:00, the Windrose skipper advised that they were retiring from the race as a precautionary measure after identifying some issues of concern with the boat.
They are returning to Beauty Point without assistance and all are well.
Bad luck to the Windrose crew."

+1 What broke? Bump

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On 12/18/2020 at 9:39 AM, TUBBY said:

Ok I should go & look this up myself, but I am sure someone here would love to show their superior knowledge in much less time than it would take me to follow all of the possible leads..

Doing the Launceston to Hobart this year,  (assuming I can still get into Tas by Monday arvo).  Ride is a 1959 S&S yawl, too pretty to turn down.  This is my 1st time offshore on a split rig & there is a risk that I may spend some time as "bowman on the back rig"

I am old enough to remember tacking staysails to the rail when running square on IOR boats,  and know that this is now frowned upon by the rule makers,  (not really an issue as who runs square in less than  about 35 nowadays anyway).  This boat has a mizzen staysail & it just struck me that the rule about flying headsails from the centreline may not apply to the little mast down the back.

Anyone regularly sail a split rig who has researched this?

I see you guys retired! DNF? What happened to the boat?

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On 12/26/2020 at 2:30 PM, Bristol-Cruiser said:

What sort of mods?

Moved the chainplate, re-sculpted the keel from what I was told, added an inner forestay.   Won the 2014 Newport/Bermuda race overall.  Had 18 sails on board/8 crew.  Last night out the boat I was on and about 60 others were in a parking lot NW of Bermuda.  ACTAEA just kept on sailing, caught up.  As we were finishing in a rain squall the next day I saw them on AIS and told the crew I think they just won this thing.  Yep.

Nice folks.  Finished dead last in their first N/B in the 90's

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22 minutes ago, sailordave said:

Moved the chainplate, re-sculpted the keel from what I was told, added an inner forestay.   Won the 2014 Newport/Bermuda race overall.  Had 18 sails on board/8 crew.  Last night out the boat I was on and about 60 others were in a parking lot NW of Bermuda.  ACTAEA just kept on sailing, caught up.  As we were finishing in a rain squall the next day I saw them on AIS and told the crew I think they just won this thing.  Yep.

Nice folks.  Finished dead last in their first N/B in the 90's

18 sails and 8 crew. I guess everyone got a couple of sails to sleep with. I would choose a couple of spinnakers. Cruising long distances on a 45, it start to get crowded when we had four onboard. Most of the time just the admiral and I. We had lots of places to put spare sails.

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On 12/30/2020 at 2:02 AM, DRIFTW00D said:

I see you guys retired! DNF? What happened to the boat?

Standard old planked boat issue,  a little too much ocean on the inside.

Withdrew before it could be an issue.  40+ was coming from the west later when our only real option if our problem got bad would also be in the west.

Seamanship over bravado.  Just occasionally, the answers are easy even if unpleasant!

Sorry Customs House,  but I will be there next year to help with your rum oversupply.

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Ya been there done that! The old girls dry out, flex and can leak like chicken coops.  
 

 My brother was racing on the wood Wind Dancer aka INTREPID US-22 in the 1985 BYC Mac (38 to 45 kn TWS,  32 degrees wind chill, for 28 hours in big seas). They were 30 + miles off the northern shore of Lake Huron after the Cove Island Buoy turn, in a WNW wind with a 90 + mi fetch in deep, cold, blue water. They had to call the USCG for a bigger pump that day. And a tow. The crew were all pumping and bailing water after the rudder post broke. The rudder fell out and left hole in the bottom the size of the rudder shaft in the bottom. They were “bailing with everything that held water, right down to Tea Cups”. The sailing Captain shoved a custom made plug for just such a occurrence  (rules: all through the hull holes shell have a tapered plugs to fit all holes and attached to in the area of the through hull fitting they fit) into to the hole to slow the water down. With free board down , the USCG Crash Boat and crew saved the day after a Mayday Call was put out by Heartage.

  He said “All the crew were seasick that day and were cured of their seasickness when the rudder broke and they got to work saving the boat.”  He gave up offshore Great Lakes Racing that day. When he gets on anyone’s boat to go out on the lake he carries his own Life Jacket with him.

Any decision made in the interest of SAFETY is a good one

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  • 1 month later...

To the OP's question, depending on the geometry of the staysail, tack it somewhere to weather.  If it's small, at the aft end of the jib track.  A bigger one can go further forward, to the rail, even as far forward as the mainmast, or nearly.

Halyard goes to leeward of the mizzen backstay, and sheet it via a block dangling off the end of the mizzen boom. 

A 3:1 tackle with a cam cleat on the tack, and a snapshackle on the bottom end is a good idea, so you're not constantly adjusting the halyard.  It also makes it much easier to strike it when you gybe, and re-set it afterwards.  Two sheets are good too - they can both go through the same block under the end of the mizzen boom.

And get the sailmaker to sew a 5 foot length of heavy chafe cloth, or even leather, round the luff where it touches the backstay.

Last, get the prettiest girl aboard to help you set and trim it.  This I've found works quite nicely.  

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On 2/11/2021 at 4:49 AM, P_Wop said:

To the OP's question, depending on the geometry of the staysail, tack it somewhere to weather.  If it's small, at the aft end of the jib track.  A bigger one can go further forward, to the rail, even as far forward as the mainmast, or nearly.

Halyard goes to leeward of the mizzen backstay, and sheet it via a block dangling off the end of the mizzen boom. 

A 3:1 tackle with a cam cleat on the tack, and a snapshackle on the bottom end is a good idea, so you're not constantly adjusting the halyard.  It also makes it much easier to strike it when you gybe, and re-set it afterwards.  Two sheets are good too - they can both go through the same block under the end of the mizzen boom.

And get the sailmaker to sew a 5 foot length of heavy chafe cloth, or even leather, round the luff where it touches the backstay.

Last, get the prettiest girl aboard to help you set and trim it.  This I've found works quite nicely.  

All good knowledge...Legend Status for the last line of advice!

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