Jump to content

Foiling F-Boats


Recommended Posts

It's probably a combination of boredom from not sailing much due to the pandemic, plus online coverage of the America's Cup, Vendee Globe, and Jules Verne Trophy, but this all has me curious about the plausibility of full foiling kits for Farrier/Corsair boats. I mean there's a full foiling kit for the Laser, so why not?

There is a lifting foil kit for the F-85SR/F-82R on the F-Boat Store, but it's not a full foiling kit. 

It looks like the Ultime's have T-foils on the main hull and rudders, plus L-foils on the amas. There's obviously a ton of complexity with these boats that would be infeasible to translate directly a Farrier/Corsair kit, but what about something like this:

  • T-foil on main dagger board with wand-style elevator control (like Moth or Laser kit)
  • Fixed T-foil on rudder (again, like Moth or Laser kit)
  • Fixed L or C foils on amas (like F-85SR/F-82R kit)
  • Possibly fixed T-foils on aft end of amas to increase stability and/or reduce pressure on rudder?

This may be a really dumb idea, but I do take some comfort that it's at least not as dumb as this.

Flame away!!!

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Kinda like this one.

Cheekee Monkee Development

 


2005 PHRF -42

 

November of 2004, we broke the starboard AMA right off, see Round the County story. We had four all new carbon AKAs designed and engineered by Ian Farrier, fabrication took place at Lonestar Multihills in Brownsville, Texas. This significantly strengthened the boat and reduced the weight by 85 pounds. Dave Calvert designed and built a new big roached main sail for the boat and are now racing with our lowest ever rating.

 


2003/2004 PHRF -39

 

After consulting with Ian Farrier, we removed all of the stock interior and replaced it with a carbon/nomex interior. Chart table, nav station, instrument pod starboard side. Cooler and micro galley port side. A pipe berth was installed port and starboard in the main cabin.

The forward cabin was blocked off with a carbon nomex bulkhead and a new environmentally friendly carbon/nomex head has been fabricated and installed. Access is through the foredeck hatch.

The stock aluminum bowsprit has been replaced with a carbon tube bowsprit and a new bow pulpit was designed to support it. An 85 gallon water ballast system for the transom of the main hull was installed (adds about 800 lbs). This is to prevent the boat from flipping over in high winds sailing downwind.

The forward cockpit well was removed and a new carbon structural bulkhead was installed between the aft AKA mounting pads on the main hull.

The main hull features a full length longitudinal stringer on both sides to provide hull rigidity after having removed the interior liners and bulkheads. The main hull was skinned with carbon for additional strength.

Lifting foils by Waterat have been added to the port and starboard Amas, here were are having a hard time getting the foils to drop down into the case after installation. Much sanding was required.

Net supports beams are now all carbon as I broke the 30' mast from my A Cat almost exactly in half on Labor Day in 2003.

The stock dagger board has been replaced with a new light weight, high tech, high aspect ratio dagger board that has been designed by Larry Tuttle at Water Rats in California. You can see how high it sticks up through the deck in the photo.

New PBO Navtec standing rigging was installed.

The boat was weighed with the sails, rigging and the required sailing gear to meet PIYA Category I safety requirements on board. The boat weighed 4,180 pounds. The boat lost about 200 lbs this time. Since we began in 95, the boat has lost a total of 650 lbs.


2002/2003 PHRF -21

Just in time for Swiftsure 2003, the Cheekee Monkee was sporting a main hull extended from 30’ 10” to 33’ LOA. We also replaced the stock transom hung kick up rudder with a custom transom hung dagger board style rudder much like you see on an F-25C. This rudder and assembly was designed and built by Waterat.

Changed from an 8 HP Honda to a 6 HP 2 cycle Johnson Outboard (-25 lbs).


1999/2000 PHRF -12

Upgraded the standing rigging to Kevlar from Navtec and added hydraulic cap shroud tensioners to cant the mast from side to side about 6 degrees each way.


1998/1999 PHRF -21

The first set of major changes: Removed the rubber bumpers from the main hull and the AKAs (-200 lbs), , faired the AKA's and changed to an 8 HP Honda outboard (-50 lbs).

Sold the old 40' rig, sails, instruments, everything! Installed a new 45' tall carbon rotating mast from Forespar, installed a new deck mounted carbon boom from Forespar (-100 lbs), all new sails from Calvert Sails. Overall the boat lost 350 pounds in weight.


1997/1998 PHRF +32

The first minor changes, changed from the original under hung rudder to the new stock transom hung kick up rudder (-50 lbs), added the "Mike Leneman" pushpit/mast support bracket, added a fully battened blade jib from Calvert Sails, installed the new stock F-31R 7' aluminum bow sprit and ordered a new spinnaker. As I was still a cruiser in my own mind, we added a 50 gallon built in cooler.


1995/1996

Took delivery of our new cruising multi-hull. Loaded the boat down with all the appropriate cruising features which included a 30 liter built in gas tank, a 15 HP Honda electric start outboard engine, a built in 2 burner propane stove and propane system to power the stove and the BBQ.

Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Fat Point Jack said:

Kinda like this one.

That's a cool boat!

I think it's only partly foiling though, like the F-85SR/F-82R kit, Carbon Credit, and Taniwha (formerly Jailbreak). 

For full foiling I think you'd need the T-foil on the dagger board and rudder, but I suspect the dagger board case would need substantial reinforcements to withstand the much higher torqueing loads.

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Fat Point Jack said:

How hard is it to make a one off work before you get a chance to get scared?

How long is a piece of string?..... Reinforce the hull... Build tools and parts for a t rudder and cassette, two asymmetric boards and trunks, and install the trunks. The tooling cant be cheap stuff as it wouldn't survive building the parts.  And i don't think that there is much on the shelf you can modify.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

I can see why you'd want to have a semi-foiling F. Going full foiling makes everything much harder, complicated, risky.

This is invaluable from somebody with experience in such matters!

It would certainly take things up to the next level, require precise weight control etc. 

The stakes are also much more manageable for non-billionaires with a smaller craft (e.g. beach cat).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes dumb idea. 
Corsair/Farriers are designed and built as cruiser racers. That means hull shape, weight and build schedule/ strength are at the opposite end of the spectrum to foilers. The serious attempts at generating lift and not even foiling were strongly advised against by Ian Farrier. He reluctantly agreed to build some float C boards for the 85/82 crowd with the express instructions to lift them progressively as the wind increased. I’ve seen the results of that advice not being followed. 
Foiling requires a whole range of new sailing skills and a much higher level of expertise than most F boat crews possess. Better off starting from scratch with a purpose designed boat, a large bank balance you are prepared to lose and a willingness to crash a lot and break a lot of gear. 
COVID dreaming is good but probably better directed towards mermaids on deserted beaches. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sail(plane) said:

Wasnt Ian planning a foiling version of the F22? I dont remember if it was full foiling or not

Yes he was, he made the offer to a friend for that F22 but he decided wisely to stick for the normal F22 others he had now no F22 by now. His boat was finished after Ian passed away.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting,  from a m 32 and mama tried, what else is there?

M32's have  defective masts, other than that it doesn't get any better, and mama tried was near perfect other than needing a minor? Overhaul.

 value in a 20ft cat?   no family invited.

 my flagged boat is the semi foiling, carbon f32srx in Australia. She appears to be a deal, price dropped $50k, and light, but sitting on the market would raise  questions.

Large or small crew, small cabin, dry sail, big foils, stupid fast

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, WetnWild said:

Yes dumb idea. 
Corsair/Farriers are designed and built as cruiser racers. That means hull shape, weight and build schedule/ strength are at the opposite end of the spectrum to foilers. The serious attempts at generating lift and not even foiling were strongly advised against by Ian Farrier. He reluctantly agreed to build some float C boards for the 85/82 crowd with the express instructions to lift them progressively as the wind increased. I’ve seen the results of that advice not being followed. 
Foiling requires a whole range of new sailing skills and a much higher level of expertise than most F boat crews possess. Better off starting from scratch with a purpose designed boat, a large bank balance you are prepared to lose and a willingness to crash a lot and break a lot of gear. 
COVID dreaming is good but probably better directed towards mermaids on deserted beaches. 

Cheekee Monkey separated their amas from their akas flying two hulls with a partially lifting foil so Ian was right!

My sense is that full foiling boats are kind of like the helicopters of the sea - fixed wing experience is helpful but it's really a whole new ball game. 

I'm really quite pleased with the performance of the F-82R, and especially how well-mannered it is when pushed hard, and I don't want to wreck that. It's also quite weight-sensitive, so adding 150lbs for even the partially foiling kit is not particularly appealing, since it's the light air performance that is the weakest, and adding weight and foils is not going to help that. 

Also, getting an entry-level foiler like an S9 is cheaper and easier than even getting the parts to get an F-boat partially foiling. 

Any good suggestions for deserted beaches with mermaids?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Only semi-foiling experience here, but I'm sure a foiling Farrier or Corsair tri is technically achievable. But as others have said, almost certainly not worth it. I'm guessing you would add at least 150lbs to the boat. You would have a high takeoff speed and it would be downwind only. You would be slower all the time in light wind. Slower all the time upwind. And maybe only faster off the wind in moderate to strong breezes.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I owned Cheekee Monkee from  2006 through 2011 when I purchased it (originally with a partner) and two years later owned it solo.  I continued t sail her for an additional 3 years after I sold her to a new owner.  It was a great boat and well conceived by Kim Alfreds (at great expense).  We continued her development, sometimes out of necessity and some from creativity.  She was a "semi foiler" and a very capable offshore boat with real accommodations including 2 pipe berths, small galley top and nav table.  60% of the boat was customized and reinforced as well as lightened from her original weight of 4400 plus lbs to around 3600 by the time I sold her.  If you really wanted a semi foiler or full foiler and didn't have the opportunity to buy someone  else's experiment at a deep discount, you'd be better off starting from scratch.  Cheekee wasn't easy to maintain, the boat was under extraordinary load and I worked really hard to stay ahead of things to keep it fresh and going strong.  Fortunately I am a very capable rigger, pretty good at fixing shit and have a good friend who was able to help me with repairs and stuff that was over my skis.  Our race program included races from around the buoys to 600 nm.  I am not aware of any full foilers in 33' or less that can handle that range in a full range of sea state which has to be considered when deciding whether to fully foil or not.  If your choice is buoys, flat seas and <20-25 kts of wind full foiling might make some sense.  If that is the choice, don't fully foil a farrier.   If you want offshore capable maybe semi foil, but you will still spend a fortune on a conversion.  BTW, I had CNC machined foil molds for Cheekee and we had to build three foils during my ownership due to breakage.....at a cost of $2,000 plus per foil.  C foils are a whole other level of torture and I have no idea what they cost.  

Loved the boat, bought her for 10,000 less than I sold my prior stock F-31 for.  Wouldn't trade the experience and loved almost every minute of it.

  • Like 9
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, multihuler said:

 my flagged boat is the semi foiling, carbon f32srx in Australia. She appears to be a deal, price dropped $50k, and light, but sitting on the market would raise  questions.

Large or small crew, small cabin, dry sail, big foils, stupid fast

 

I think I know the boat you speak of I think, she has had a bit of bad luck, in Hamilton Island was struck broke an Ama and was holed. Maybe proving the point that foiling, even semi on a Farrier isn't a great idea she has also capsized in Geelong

https://www.hamiltonislandraceweek.com.au/media-releases/multi-mayhem-at-audi-hamilton-island-race-week-201

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ref breaking off the ama - did that with the T-35 bec of assymetric daggers on the floats - at 10kn+  upwind - that was too much - but there was some weak spots that gave away... But - T-foils on the amas - wouldt give so much torque on the construction - , more pure  lifting  - that is easier to deal with. Ref. AC now - it is basically T-foils. Then you could use both foils to get out of water - maybe all   the time with both - Moth - style control.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/18/2020 at 5:51 PM, gspot said:

It's probably a combination of boredom from not sailing much due to the pandemic, plus online coverage of the America's Cup, Vendee Globe, and Jules Verne Trophy, but this all has me curious about the plausibility of full foiling kits for Farrier/Corsair boats. I mean there's a full foiling kit for the Laser, so why not?

There is a lifting foil kit for the F-85SR/F-82R on the F-Boat Store, but it's not a full foiling kit. 

It looks like the Ultime's have T-foils on the main hull and rudders, plus L-foils on the amas. There's obviously a ton of complexity with these boats that would be infeasible to translate directly a Farrier/Corsair kit, but what about something like this:

  • T-foil on main dagger board with wand-style elevator control (like Moth or Laser kit)
  • Fixed T-foil on rudder (again, like Moth or Laser kit)
  • Fixed L or C foils on amas (like F-85SR/F-82R kit)
  • Possibly fixed T-foils on aft end of amas to increase stability and/or reduce pressure on rudder?

This may be a really dumb idea, but I do take some comfort that it's at least not as dumb as this.

Flame away!!!

 

Don't forget to strengthen the beams too

 

Then take a massive handicap hit

 

Get extra crew on board to run the foils

 

Then only foil for 5% of race time 

 

Carry more drag and weight for the other 95%!

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't do this to an F or C boat.  Not worth it and would require massive re-engineering and reinforcement for little or no overall (across range of conditions and courses) gain.  And at the end of the day and huge cost your resale value would be minimal.  If you want full foiling go buy a boat designed and built specifically for  that.  Will cost you less and get you more that trying to convert an F or C boat (both great boats/brands for what they are designed and built to do).

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an Fboat and my benchmark for performance upgrades has always been the Seacart 30.

The Seacart 30 does not use lifting foils (I am aware of 2 that have been modified.. but these are exceptions).

Would adding foils to an fboat make it as fast or faster than a Seacart?  Would the cost of adding foils to an fboat (+ boat value) exceed the purchase price for a 2nd hand Seacart? 

I always wondered what the cheekee monkee line honours programme would have looked like if they didn't move to foils and focussed on light high volume carbon floats and T rudders.

Adding foils to an fboat not designed around them is always going to be a tough and expensive learning curve.  But don't get me wrong.. I have followed cheekee monkee for a long time and have been inspired by that programme..

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, can-UK said:

Thats a great write up.

Agreed, great write up.  BTW Cheekee ended up with new lighter beams, we built a new, lighter wing mast 2.5 feet taller than stock with masthead screacher and kites, rig canting and adjustable rake.  The end result was clearly not how one would do it if starting from scratch.  Couldn't beat a well sailed stock sea cart 30 which I agree is a great benchmark.  One thing we had going for us though was the ability to rig and launch from trailer to sailing in a little over 2 hours.  Based on the number of events we did over a pretty wide area this was a huge deal for me.  

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, multihuler said:

So, that means the F32 Carbon Credit for sale in oz built around the foils, and tiny cabin doesnt work?

If you want to  critique you could at least look it up 

 

It doesn't work. It did win a national title against other boats that had never achieved a 3rd in a nationals. Beautifully built but massive design flaws. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

IMHO past a certain point, foils are a massive liability. Essentially, anything you can right on your own, anything that capsizing / pitchpoling violently firmly is a serious matter. At certain speeds/swells/conditions, stopping is a mission.

Fly as high as you dare on a moth/wasp/ufo. Go wild on an acat, it's super light. People get hurt on a Nacra 17. Weights and loads in a TF10 give me real pause. The foiling G4 is glorious dangerous folly.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

4 hours ago, cynophobe said:

It doesn't work. It did win a national title against other boats that had never achieved a 3rd in a nationals. Beautifully built but massive design flaws. 

I think it's hugely telling that the semi-foiling boats haven't just walked away with the titles.

5 hours ago, REW said:

Agreed, great write up.  BTW Cheekee ended up with new lighter beams, we built a new, lighter wing mast 2.5 feet taller than stock with masthead screacher and kites, rig canting and adjustable rake.  The end result was clearly not how one would do it if starting from scratch.  Couldn't beat a well sailed stock sea cart 30 which I agree is a great benchmark.  One thing we had going for us though was the ability to rig and launch from trailer to sailing in a little over 2 hours.  Based on the number of events we did over a pretty wide area this was a huge deal for me.  

Also telling that Cheekee Monkey still couldn't beat a stock Seacart 30. I bet Cheekee Monkey would have been just as successful without the foils.

I've talked to a couple of semi-foiling boat owners (not F-boats but similar size range), and when I asked about their foils, they both answered "Ummm...yeah...the canting mast works really well!".  That's why I was musing about full-foiling (e.g. T-foil on daggerboard) because I'm not aware of anybody ever trying that on a smaller tri. 

12 hours ago, can-UK said:

I have an Fboat and my benchmark for performance upgrades has always been the Seacart 30.

The Seacart 30 does not use lifting foils (I am aware of 2 that have been modified.. but these are exceptions).

The Seacart 30 is an amazing boat, but the ability to sail an F-boat from the trailer is a huge logistical advantage A T-foil on the daggerboard would certainly introduce some trailering challenges, thereby eliminating the logistical advantage of an F-boat.

4 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

IMHO past a certain point, foils are a massive liability. Essentially, anything you can right on your own, anything that capsizing / pitchpoling violently firmly is a serious matter. At certain speeds/swells/conditions, stopping is a mission.

Martin makes an excellent point and in the end, even if you could make it work, you may not even be allowed to compete in your favourite events with a full-foiling boat for safety reasons. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

SeaCart 30 vs Carbon Credit; the SC30 is much lighter - and very stiff - but look at the floats - the typical F-floats that also this CC has is made for safety - not speed - also the main hull has som design features that is about safety , due to the market the F-boats has - not speed. The SC30 is made just for speed and for expert sailors. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, cynophobe said:

It doesn't work. It did win a national title against other boats that had never achieved a 3rd in a nationals. Beautifully built but massive design flaws. 

Could You please unveil those design flaws.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, REW said:

Agreed, great write up.  BTW Cheekee ended up with new lighter beams, we built a new, lighter wing mast 2.5 feet taller than stock with masthead screacher and kites, rig canting and adjustable rake.  The end result was clearly not how one would do it if starting from scratch.  Couldn't beat a well sailed stock sea cart 30 which I agree is a great benchmark.  One thing we had going for us though was the ability to rig and launch from trailer to sailing in a little over 2 hours.  Based on the number of events we did over a pretty wide area this was a huge deal for me.  

Also telling that Cheekee Monkey still couldn't beat a stock Seacart 30. I bet Cheekee Monkey would have been just as successful without the foils.

I've talked to a couple of semi-foiling boat owners (not F-boats but similar size range), and when I asked about their foils, they both answered "Ummm...yeah...the canting mast works really well!".  That's why I was musing about full-foiling (e.g. T-foil on daggerboard) because I'm not aware of anybody ever trying that on a smaller tri. 

 

Cheekee was markedly faster with foils than without unless wind speed under 6 to 7 knots.  beyond righting moment they really helped the boat to weather (faster closer).  we carried a masthead screacher upwind that would have blown us sideways without the foils. Reaching and offwind at 10 knots of boat speed plus the foils were fast and also allowed more sail area at higher wind speeds.

The struggle was that the rating guys never like a bunch of mods, so the rating was punitive.  Even though I chaired the regional rating group, I recused myself regarding my own boat.  I don't blame them.  When you take a a stock boat that is a known quantity and modify the daylights out of it it becomes an insurmountable challenge for a PHRF type rating system.  The sum of 3 second increments for a bunch of mods doesn't equal the final reality.

The Seacart has a higher rig, more sail area, more float buoyancy forward and lower displacement....by alot.  Good formula!

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...