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38 minutes ago, Redreuben said:

That’s crazy, so having the right foils for the conditions is based on what you knew 5 days ago ? That’s bullshit. 

If you take a step back and think about ETNZ's performance in Bermuda it makes a little more sense.  Despite Stingray's protestations about freak weather, one of the reasons ETNZ won was because their foils spanned the greatest range giving them a huge advantage over OR and Artemis in the two-race days where conditions changed between race 1 and 2.  The AC is ultimately a design contest and the class rule writers wanted to avoid a situation where teams optimised different foils for every couple of knots of wind speed.  By limiting teams to 6 foils and imposing the advance declaration they're trying to steer teams towards designing all round foil packages. I quite like the approach as it forced teams to think long and hard about each and every foil before attaching it to the boat.

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Having a race like that is why the committee was correct in postponing the race so many times. I think that the race was worth the wait.  Cheers to the Race Committee!

Semi Final Race 1 book is open - hit like for an AM win, dislike for LRPP.  Don’t sit on the fence now!

Funny when I click on the cup site I get this:

Posted Images

41 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

The heat is on Barker tomorrow. I'm looking forward to whether he rises to the challenge or starts to buckle under pressure? 

 

Deano seems stressed, he is not relaxed in anyway shape or form..... almost like he's trying too hard??? Body language leads to those observations..... my excuse is am a fat bastard....

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8 hours ago, Rudder_NZ said:

Such hostility. Its not the only explination but it is plausible and good sportsmanship to some extent. If something breaks on another boat and you have a spare I would consider it good sportsmanship to sell them your spare so they can race. 

I think its a bit strange if it is true and the defender is helping the challenger but a deal that is beneficial to both teams is fine. 

Memo to self... don’t post when pissed. Sorry, got a bit carried away but we have put up with quite a lot of negativity thus far (admittedly justified at the time!).

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1 hour ago, Redreuben said:

That’s crazy, so having the right foils for the conditions is based on what you knew 5 days ago ? That’s bullshit. 

I think the intention was for designers to aim for more all-purpose foils.

When you think of a foil around 2 body-lengths and a bit long, by 1-2 cubits wide, which have to lift 7.8 tonnes of boat+crew, that's quite a technological challenge. It takes something like 12 odd weeks to construct one, so it's not just expensive but also time intensive.

The teams are limited to just 6 foils (ie 3 sets).

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Fuck. What a snooze fest that was, without wind.

it's like long distance driving, or towing a trailer, with a BEV. As painful as a bloody wet week.

Still. Another pretty impressive outing for, Rita, Well done INEOS Team UK.

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5 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Hey- where are the guys up the mast looking for pressure?

you miss the memo ??

to save windage they now stuff a bloke up the mast before stepping it

if you look close you can see their eyes and nose at the top

got a video of the guy from S+S getting into position here

https://www.facebook.com/marjan.dimitrijevic.94/videos/835014043955029/

 

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9 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Fuck. What a snooze fest that was, without wind.

it's like long distance driving, or towing a trailer, with a BEV. As painful as a bloody wet week.

Still. Another pretty impressive outing for, Rita, Well done INEOS Team UK.

As an ETNZ supporter with fuck all on the line, I kinda enjoyed it.

The fluky conditions that allowed intermittent foiling when a team could find wind made it a bit interesting.

AM was down 750m in two minutes in R2, but even a lead like that was dubious right until the end. And the 45m time limit added some interest around whether INEOS could finish.

More interesting than 6 legs of 100% foiling, bouncing down the boundaries, and which is all over in 20mins. 

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13 minutes ago, DA-WOODY said:

you miss the memo ??

to save windage they now stuff a bloke up the mast before stepping it

if you look close you can see their eyes and nose at the top

got a video of the guy from S+S getting into position here somewhere 

 

They'll be stuck in there until their regatta is over. Get fed through a straw. The smell in March when they get to shower will be epic.

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1 minute ago, 3to1 said:

what'd the limeys do to find speed?

Fixed the foils that were suffering deformation, was mentioned again in comms, potentially with Mercedes input and manufacturing to get it turned around so fast

pkud the rig mast and sails etc. 
 

or if you believe the tin foil idiots, they just did a deal with the kiwis and that sorted it.. 

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3 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Fixed the foils that were suffering deformation, was mentioned again in comms, potentially with Mercedes input and manufacturing to get it turned around so fast

pkud the rig mast and sails etc. 
 

or if you believe the tin foil idiots, they just did a deal with the kiwis and that sorted it.. 

A new main has a bit to do with IMO

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2 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

The heat is on Barker tomorrow. I'm looking forward to whether he rises to the challenge or starts to buckle under pressure?

 

It’s coming quite clear that the tacticians job is super important. It’s most probably not fair to just blame Deano , but also Terry needs to have a hard look at himself. 

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5 hours ago, bgytr said:

Why does US have those torpedoes at the foil junctions?  Seems like they're nothing but drag.

Gotta put 1 ton of ballast somewhere. I think i read the foils have to weigh somewhere between 1 & 1.5 tons.

 

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5 hours ago, bgytr said:

Why does US have those torpedoes at the foil junctions?  Seems like they're nothing but drag.

Gotta put 1 ton of ballast somewhere. I think i read the foils have to weigh somewhere between 1 & 1.5 tons.

3 hours ago, trt131 said:

Shit are you an Umpire, I must have missed that after all you have only mentioned it about fifty times.

Sorry, how else could i put in context why  would be pacing planing Elliots in a powerboat? Open to suggestions!

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5 hours ago, bgytr said:

Why does US have those torpedoes at the foil junctions?  Seems like they're nothing but drag.

Gotta put 1 ton of ballast somewhere. I think i read the foils have to weigh somewhere between 1 & 1.5 tons.

3 hours ago, trt131 said:

Shit are you an Umpire, I must have missed that after all you have only mentioned it about fifty times.

Sorry, how else could i put in context why  would be pacing planing Elliots in a powerboat? Open to suggestions!

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2 hours ago, Zeusproject said:

Deal has been done for Ineos to be COR apparently and will help ETNZ if eliminated early 

May tie in with Sir Biggus Dickus and Nick Haemorrhoid paying a visit to ETNZ just before Xmas. Likely that the visit paid dividends as to foil setup etc among other things. 

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8 hours ago, snaerk said:

POTUS interruptus?

 

FIFY

No, you corrected it wrong. A lot of people make that mistake, but an onshore pressure gradient slows or even stops a sea breeze forming, an offshore breeze helps the sea breeze form and strengthens it. The key is that a sea breeze has and needs an offshore circulation at altitude to allow the onshore element at sea level to form properly. 

See any decent book on the subject, but I also had it drummed in by GB Olympic coach (no I wasnt olympian, but he also trained offshore team)

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8 hours ago, snaerk said:

POTUS interruptus?

 

FIFY

No, you corrected it wrong. A lot of people make that mistake, but an onshore pressure gradient slows or even stops a sea breeze forming, an offshore breeze helps the sea breeze form and strengthens it. The key is that a sea breeze has and needs an offshore circulation at altitude to allow the onshore element at sea level to form properly. 

See any decent book on the subject, but I also had it drummed in by GB Olympic coach (no I wasnt olympian, but he also trained offshore team)

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Given both boats gave up a half a leg lead at various points the lesson seems to be “hang in there anything can happen of course with more wind it’s a different game. 
Im loving it, especially the Ineos comeback. 

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1 hour ago, shanghaisailor said:

Gotta put 1 ton of ballast somewhere. I think i read the foils have to weigh somewhere between 1 & 1.5 tons.

 

Looks like the version without the torpedoes may be a bit faster, no?

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15 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

North Head is a small volcano (about 50 of them in Auckland) about 180 feet high.  So it creates eddies in the wind from the west but it also tends to hug or channel to the right.  Rangitoto the big volcano Island accentuates this effect.  You also have a tidal effect as where the course was yesterday a lot of water flows in and out of the inner harbour.  A huge area to drain and flood beyond the harbour Bridge too.

 

That's helpful, thanks. Also thanks rh3000.

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So what your saying is local knowledge wins, fair call. Any local knowledge on the defender ?

(im not being a smart arse I don’t know )

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10 hours ago, XPRO said:

In longer races you take less risks , keep the dog on the leash/chain and avoid any messes. In short races you may not  have that option especially if the other team is backed into a corner , if you don’t have boat speed , you better let the dog off the chain...his words not mine.

 

Oh OK thanks, that makes sense. Other than the "dog leash" metaphor, which is terrible. Not yours, I realise. 

On the subject of dogs, mine, who likes to watch television, joined me on the sofa at stupid o'clock this morning during race 1. However after 5 minutes she decided it was boring, curled up and went back to sleep. Proving she sometimes has more sense than I do.

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7 hours ago, trt131 said:

Shit are you an Umpire, I must have missed that after all you have only mentioned it about fifty times.

a) you can't fucking count; b) what have you done to put back into our sport; c) what is wrong with being reasonably proud of what you are helping an emerging sailing nation to achieve; d) one mention every approx 140+ posts or around 1.5 a year is hardly snowing mentions about umpiring & e)good sarcasm takes intelligence - go troll someone else.

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Thinking about the races yesterday, I don't really think that what we saw, is what the AC75 is about. They're high performance boats, but drifting around in 3kts of wind is not high performance. I think the city courses are too inconsistent in light airs. There might 7 or  8 kts at the start, but it's certainly not consistent across the course - as we saw. In light airs they should race out on the gulf, where hopefully there will be less course bias, more consistent breeze, and not so much of a minefield.

Can you imagine if those races were in the actual Cup match? The Cup being decided by lottery drift? I wouldn't want to win it that way, and certainly wouldn't want to lose it that way. A very poor dividend for those boats. There needs to be less emphasis on the stadium courses in the light airs - where it might be great for the spectators, but not good sailing.

I think those races should have been cancelled and rescheduled. They didn't look or feel right whatsoever. Who the hell is going to want to spend a $100 million+ to be sent home in races like that? It's not tenable. Grant needs to have a chat with Ian, and rethink where they race. I think the lower wind limit is just okay, but it has to be consistent across the course, and not so fucking patchy.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Thinking about the races yesterday, I don't really think that what we saw, is what the AC75 is about.

The AC is a competition that combines design skills, sailings skills and legal fees.   Yesterdays racing was absolutely about all of those: which boat can get onto the foils better, which crew can find/keep the pressure better and Ineos had to sail with their old out-haul and main because of a protest!

Light air sailing can be really skilful and can reward good strategy.  I found the racing riveting and just listening to the onboard was worth it.

Also not that often these boats were doing 12kn of boat speed in 8kn of breeze, which many classes would think is pretty good, yet often they chose to use that speed to sail with negative VMG to place themselves in front of the next gust.

The losing boat on days like that often says "it was just a lottery", but I know good sailors that are really good at winning such lotteries more often than not!

Good sailing and good viewing.  There will be windy days as well.

  

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

 

Can you imagine if those races were in the actual Cup match? The Cup being decided by lottery drift? I wouldn't want to win it that way, and certainly wouldn't want to lose it that way. A very poor dividend for those boats. There needs to be less emphasis on the stadium courses in the light airs - where it might be great for the spectators, but not good sailing.

I think those races should have been cancelled and rescheduled. They didn't look or feel right whatsoever. Who the hell is going to want to spend a $100 million+ to be sent home in races like that? It's not tenable. Grant needs to have a chat with Ian, and rethink where they race. I think the lower wind limit is just okay, but it has to be consistent across the course, and not so fucking patchy.

Great observation. I’ll take it a little farther. These boats, this format, is dead wrong for the AC. They might be the coolest kids on the school bus, but absolutely no one is going to want to blow north of 100 million for this. Think about the next match...does anyone really think that there will be any more than three challengers for the next cycle? 

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I'm with those that enjoyed yesterday. Very tense even when UK (who I am supporting of course) were well in lead because I knew it could easily change.

There is luck in those conditions (there always is, but more so) but good sailors keep looking and trying when others blame luck. It was telling that TH said it was a lottery but when asked he agreed Giles was tactful but didn't say yes.

FWIW some of my most memorable races were in extraordinary light stuff. Great fun

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14 minutes ago, Vin said:

They might be the coolest kids on the school bus, but absolutely no one is going to want to blow north of 100 million for this.

A winning campaign today is always going to spend that sort of money - regardless of the class. They need to get some value for their money. Not spend the dosh on a high performance boat, but get knocked out in a drifting contest. That just doesn't seem right to me, and won't encourage entrants. Not a lot has to change, just move the light air races to a more consistent venue, not the minefield of the inner harbour. We had great regattas in 2000/2003, but they were out in the Gulf. The obsession with stadium racing, showing off Auckland and the inner harbour, is what's killing it.

35 minutes ago, sfigone said:

 Yesterdays racing was absolutely about all of those: which boat can get onto the foils better, which crew can find/keep the pressure better

They weren't even sticking to their own racing parameters. The breeze was too patchy. I don't mind a race at the bottom of the range, but it's got to be the same or similar throughout the course. It clearly wasn't that yesterday.

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9 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

It may have been, but I don't recall AM ever using any large foils. They seem to have taken the same tack as NZ, with a narrow high speed foil for all conditions.

I thought GB just outclassed them in strategy/ability... they managed to find the puffs more often.

Ineos made much better calls than AM but speed makes an intelligent skipper

I think that among the different factors the foils choice is the major one. Does TNZ and AM have 3 identical sets of foils all conditions ? I doubt it, but I don't know.

We have to wait for a race with wind to know if the choice of foils they made before the race had an impact or not. Hopefully today. With 6 race courses it should be possible to choose the one with the "right" wind conditions.

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I'm not taking anything from today's racing, the weather was so fucking hard that the race was won by the tacticians and not the engineers. In conditions like these, better tactics (and a bit of luck!) will almost always win against a faster boat in conditions like these. I challenge anyone to argue or oppose this. 

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1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

I'm with those that enjoyed yesterday. Very tense even when UK (who I am supporting of course) were well in lead because I knew it could easily change.

There is luck in those conditions (there always is, but more so) but good sailors keep looking and trying when others blame luck. It was telling that TH said it was a lottery but when asked he agreed Giles was tactful but didn't say yes.

FWIW some of my most memorable races were in extraordinary light stuff. Great fun

It was Dean who made the offhand remark in the immediate on board post race interview "That was a lottery ...not sure we should be racing in those conditions" or words to that effect.   In the later press conference , Terry was asked if he agreed with Deans comment.  Terry said it was a lottery .  Then  Giles was asked the same question if he agreed with Dean and TH that it was a lottery, and I thought his answer was very tactful (not wanting to rub it in for AM) and accurate. He said something along the lines that all sailboat racing contained an element of unpredictable and chance, a lottery element if you like,  but tactically one played the odds. Today was more unpredictable and lottery like than some and they focused on linking together the breeze as best they could. 

Terry later contradicted himself by saying a large part was due to the boat finding it harder to get on its foils than competitors.  

So taking Terry at his word, and from watching, I think the boat was less adept at getting on foils than the other two and they they did not link the puffs quite as well.

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41 minutes ago, Raptorsailor said:

I'm not taking anything from today's racing, the weather was so fucking hard that the race was won by the tacticians and not the engineers. In conditions like these, better tactics (and a bit of luck!) will almost always win against a faster boat in conditions like these. I challenge anyone to argue or oppose this. 

Absolutely agree with two equivalent boat in light wind and different pressure on the race course, I am sure you have been racing in that conditions, I personnally enjoy it.

Not if one boat can fly with 1 or 2 kts less wind with an immediate differential of 30 kts.

So, 3 criteria : 1) the tactic 2) the lottery 3) the foil, the most important of the 3 IMO.

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8 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

A big reason why they lost both races today is they fucked up tactically. An early entry was as good a free kick as you can give off the start line...

A lot of the blame has to go to Terry and not all with Dean.  You know he has a lot of influence in the strategy during the race as Dean is helming the boat.  He picked the left in the very first race against UK.  They could not find the wind anywhere in the races while the other boats sailed back and forth (even at negative VMG) just to keep up on the foils.  They missed timed the entry, they tacked away from the wind pocked that NO saw on the course, etc...   Both UK and LR said it was so much more work for the grinders during the light winds because they had to constantly build pressure to pump the sail and such to get up and to stay foiling.  AM just seemed to drift without much grinding while in displacement mode, not the same effort at UK or LR.  Is that because Dean and TH are old school sailors and not real experienced foilers?

Very frustrating.  You spend a $100 million to develop a boat that can fly around, but you spend all your time in the race floating like a fishing bobber.

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3 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Very frustrating.  You spend a $100 million to develop a boat that can fly around, but you spend all your time in the race floating like a fishing bobber.

I thinking the same way when watching the race.

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Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

I thinking the same way when watching the race.

It's not what we want to see. I believe it does damage to the public image of the class. 

It could have been avoided. 

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FFS. Have you even sailed? Happens all the fucking time! Yesterday’s races were a perfect example of how to spot the breeze and join them together to manage the race course. That was sailing. And that was entertainment. It was enthralling! 

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

FFS. Have you even sailed? Happens all the fucking time! Yesterday’s races were a perfect example of how to spot the breeze and join them together to manage the race course. That was sailing. And that was entertainment. It was enthralling! 

I get the desire for some peeps to always want plenty of breeze as it guarantees consistent performance.

However, as long as the race can conclude then so what if it is flukey?

Even though I hate these boats, I agree that racing like this can still be enthralling.

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Its kind of like Offshore sailing. The boats are designed and built for the big breeze and big waves of the Southern Ocean, yet they can be becalmed in the Doldrums for days. One boat may have had a 100 mile lead, only to have the fleet compress in the doldrums and the race reset and start all over again.

Same with the 100 footers in the Sydney Hobart. They can also build up a massive lead only to have the breeze completely die off and have the race start all over again. That's sailing. Whether inshore or offshore. Just because you build a boat for one condition doesn't mean you forget how to sail in a different condition, or blame the Race Committee or the event when you get another condition.

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Just keeping track of overall race results although I think that 

                      

AM vs LR        1 : 1 in ACWS   0:1 in Prada.   Over both series AM is losing 1:2 vs LR

AM vs INUK    2:0 in ACWS   0:2 in Prada. Over bot series AM is 2:2 draw vs UK   

Over both series against all challengers  AM is  3:4

LR vs INUK      2:0                   0:1           Over both series LR is up 2:1 vs UK                                                                     

LR vs AM          1:1                   1:0           Over both series LR is up 2:1 vs AM     

Over both series LR is up 4:2 against the other challengers

INUK is a tale of  two cities, down 0:4 in ACWS and up 3:0 in Prada  so 3:4 but momentum has completely changed.    

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I find myself in a strange situation. I'm a staunch, long time and loyal Team NZ supporter. Always have been, always will be. But I find myself in a position where 1) I want the Brits to go through as Challenger, and if that happens, while I want Team NZ to successfully defend, I actually wouldn't mind if the Brits won it too.

It would be the first time the Brits would have ever won it. The way they have completely turned their campaign around in such a short time, and the fact that Ben is determined to win it to take it back to Britain with everything it would mean to the country. The UK has huge maritime tradition, and taking the Cup back to the UK would be a huge achievement after 170 years.

Yes, I want the Cup to stay in NZ for another cycle, but if we lose it, the only other team I would be happy with losing it to is the Brits.

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The wind limit of 6.5kts was agreed with all the syndicates seems just about right.

Very edgy, requiring a real test of sailing and design. Yes, it does make a potential lottery as DB and TH claimed, but we have all been there,  racing when it suddenly goes light. It makes for some really tense moments requiring great patience and concentration. At various times each side of the course seems to get a little puff and then it just as quickly dissolves. For those in the lead it is an agonising wait as you fear and see your hard earned lead disappear in a blink (just like the safety car in F1). For those dumped at the back it is your great chance of glory. Yes, sometimes it does work out for the rearguard,  but over time somehow there are always the same names at the front. 

Fortunately over the period of the Cup between now and March we are unlikely to see too many days like today and the proper order of the world will be established. 

However a few days like today will be a reminder to all, sailors and observers, just how complex and difficult and frustrating and nail biting and exciting (yes!) boat racing can be.  

Even though Shirley might have been giggling a bit as each team tried to get back onto the foils. It was almost nervousness as she has been plenty of times in the same situation on her way to gold.

Yes, a minimum of even 7kts would probably eliminate a day like today plus of course setting a time limit less than 45 minutes. 

As it is I am happy to spend the extra 20 minutes experiencing the agony on the water, tensely waiting for the magical 16kts on the speedo and feeling all the tension and elation of the crews.

And remember that they are not playing in a weekday evening club race when they can come back next week.  This is their lives, their careers and all there hopes and all the glory and high stakes of the very pinnacle of yacht racing. 

The spectacle of the most extreme, technically advanced and difficult to sail yachts in the world wallowing in the water with their arms outstretched and the crews wandering around in bemusement and frustration is not a pretty sight. But, then suddenly like a swan flapping its wings on the water struggling to gain flight, they are back on the foils in excess of 30 knots. Absolutely magnificent and mesmerising to watch.

The, hopefully, few light wind days can only add to the whole spectacle that makes the AC one of the most "absorbing" sporting contests in the world. 

It had my attention and I guess most of us on SA and beyond. And we won't know how TNZ will handle it, though I am sure they will be concentrating on lighter winds as is forecast in March, or so they say.

P.S  posted on another thread!

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How slow does it have to be to give up a knot or two of full flight speed to be able to fly 1 minute longer?

No doubt every design team has made that determination and are all in the same place, with the possible exception of ETNZ which has kept trying Zeros of different sizes.

SHC

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

I find myself in a strange situation. I'm a staunch, long time and loyal Team NZ supporter. Always have been, always will be. But I find myself in a position where 1) I want the Brits to go through as Challenger, and if that happens, while I want Team NZ to successfully defend, I actually wouldn't mind if the Brits won it too.

It would be the first time the Brits would have ever won it. The way they have completely turned their campaign around in such a short time, and the fact that Ben is determined to win it to take it back to Britain with everything it would mean to the country. The UK has huge maritime tradition, and taking the Cup back to the UK would be a huge achievement after 170 years.

Yes, I want the Cup to stay in NZ for another cycle, but if we lose it, the only other team I would be happy with losing it to is the Brits.

As with you, I have a strong preference for ETNZ to retain the cup.

However, I have no preference for which team goes through to challenge for the cup.

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Light wind has always been a part of sailing. Always was. Always will be. It's not better, or worse, just different. The wind limits are the same for everyone & were publicised well in advance. Even in displacement mode these boats are not really slow. The choice between VMG to the mark, or reaching for Vmax to foil in marginal conditions is another tactical minefield which adds interest. 

It's all good. Relax & enjoy the racing. 

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^^^ Whiners! Never happy....

Patchy: "It's a lottery".

Steady: "It's a parade"

Too high, too low, too dangerous, too boring - I know better, why the hell don't I get to make all the decisions :blink:

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10 hours ago, Piet56 said:

Deano seems stressed,

 

His track record is one of making unforced errors when it counts.  He "usually" does well enough to win the challenger series, and then loses in the actual Cup.  This year he's not even doing that well in the run-up....  

I don't understand why he has a job.

 

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This is a fucking joke. ETNZ comes up with a cool new design, but decides to force it to race in conditions an old IOR maxi could probably beat it. On top of that they make it a huge pain in the ass to even watch if you’re not in the right country, despite that lying cunt who runs the syndicate bragging about how it’d be free to everyone. I feel bad for the good folks from New Zealand. They deserved a better effort. 

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5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Thinking about the races yesterday, I don't really think that what we saw, is what the AC75 is about. They're high performance boats, but drifting around in 3kts of wind is not high performance. I think the city courses are too inconsistent in light airs. There might 7 or  8 kts at the start, but it's certainly not consistent across the course - as we saw. In light airs they should race out on the gulf, where hopefully there will be less course bias, more consistent breeze, and not so much of a minefield.

Can you imagine if those races were in the actual Cup match? The Cup being decided by lottery drift? I wouldn't want to win it that way, and certainly wouldn't want to lose it that way. A very poor dividend for those boats. There needs to be less emphasis on the stadium courses in the light airs - where it might be great for the spectators, but not good sailing.

I think those races should have been cancelled and rescheduled. They didn't look or feel right whatsoever. Who the hell is going to want to spend a $100 million+ to be sent home in races like that? It's not tenable. Grant needs to have a chat with Ian, and rethink where they race. I think the lower wind limit is just okay, but it has to be consistent across the course, and not so fucking patchy.

It was like watching an entire F1 race under safety car.  

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Really think the rule requiring sails to be stored on deck needs to be reviewed if we keep these boats for the next cycle.

It makes it far too punitive from a drag perspective to carry Code 0s or alternate jibs which would make the light air races a lot more interesting.

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Anyone of these three boats can still be the challenger, the Prada cup is a long slog with plenty of opportunity even for the two boats that have to duke it out in the semifinals.

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33 minutes ago, Monkey said:

This is a fucking joke. ETNZ comes up with a cool new design, but decides to force it to race in conditions an old IOR maxi could probably beat it. On top of that they make it a huge pain in the ass to even watch if you’re not in the right country, despite that lying cunt who runs the syndicate bragging about how it’d be free to everyone. I feel bad for the good folks from New Zealand. They deserved a better effort. 

No need to feel sorry for us, Monkey. We are pretty happy so far thanks. A bit more wind would be helpful, though.

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6 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Thinking about the races yesterday, I don't really think that what we saw, is what the AC75 is about. They're high performance boats, but drifting around in 3kts of wind is not high performance. I think the city courses are too inconsistent in light airs. There might 7 or  8 kts at the start, but it's certainly not consistent across the course - as we saw. In light airs they should race out on the gulf, where hopefully there will be less course bias, more consistent breeze, and not so much of a minefield.

Can you imagine if those races were in the actual Cup match? The Cup being decided by lottery drift? I wouldn't want to win it that way, and certainly wouldn't want to lose it that way. A very poor dividend for those boats. There needs to be less emphasis on the stadium courses in the light airs - where it might be great for the spectators, but not good sailing.

I think those races should have been cancelled and rescheduled. They didn't look or feel right whatsoever. Who the hell is going to want to spend a $100 million+ to be sent home in races like that? It's not tenable. Grant needs to have a chat with Ian, and rethink where they race. I think the lower wind limit is just okay, but it has to be consistent across the course, and not so fucking patchy.

While the boats are clearly designed for optimal performance in medium breeze, the boats and crews still need to be able to sail in light conditions too. Many said these boats would not be able to sail in displacement mode, and they were completely wrong. We all want to see the boats consistently flying around for the whole race, every race, but the conditions don't always provide for it, and thats sailing, and it takes just as much skill to fly the boats as it does to find breeze in a light air race, and connect the dots better than your competitor.

I would actually be completely fine with it happening in the Cup match because everyone is in the same boat (excuse the pun). I don't think those races should have been cancelled simply because the boats don't look good. We had one race cancelled just before the last leg even though one boat was comfortably foiling, and it cost the team the Cup.

If there is flexibility for the races to be completed in the timeframe as there clearly was yesterday, than let it go. 

Do we just do away with sailing just because the boats don't look any good in displacement, or because they look better flying than sailing? When you learn to sail, or when you get back to the basics of sailing, its about finding the wind and managing the conditions during a given race. Its about getting your head out of the boat and looking around at where the breeze is. The Brits and Italians clearly did that better than the Americans who once they got behind, in both races, instead of looking for the breeze, sat and waited until something came to them. The British were pro active in what they did. Thats what skilled sailing is all about.

 

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We have watched all the racing so far. Love how the commentary guys/gals try to make it exciting. Yeah one boat is doing 2kts and the other 36kts.

Even with decent wind, one boat takes off and we get to watch it sail around by itself. Lots of  high powered lenses to make it seem like the racing is closer than it is.

Hoping for better in the weeks to come.

Love the foils because that is what I use with my kites. 

 

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42 minutes ago, Monkey said:

This is a fucking joke. ETNZ comes up with a cool new design, but decides to force it to race in conditions an old IOR maxi could probably beat it. On top of that they make it a huge pain in the ass to even watch if you’re not in the right country, despite that lying cunt who runs the syndicate bragging about how it’d be free to everyone. I feel bad for the good folks from New Zealand. They deserved a better effort. 

Comanche would've got her butt kicked in those conditions.

Its free for us! Can't help it overseas providers want people to pay for it.

Its free to air, and freely available on You Tube.

Thats what Dalton promised.

This is a spectacular event delivering on everything it has promised so far.

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For USA types, If you want to plan ahead, NBC Sports is covering the races next Th through Sat. like this week.  Central Standard Time 11:30pm-1:30am. Friday 8-10pm.  Saturday 11pm-1am.

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57 minutes ago, Monkey said:

This is a fucking joke. ETNZ comes up with a cool new design, but decides to force it to race in conditions an old IOR maxi could probably beat it. On top of that they make it a huge pain in the ass to even watch if you’re not in the right country, despite that lying cunt who runs the syndicate bragging about how it’d be free to everyone. I feel bad for the good folks from New Zealand. They deserved a better effort. 

Some recent revelation that agreements put in place for AC35 by RC may have carried over to AC36. Maybe do some reading into that?

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13 hours ago, Zeusproject said:

Deal has been done for Ineos to be COR apparently and will help ETNZ if eliminated early 

I really believed NYYC would be CoR in AC37 if ETNZ defends successfully, but after they called a meeting of high-brow YCs and presumptuously stating a return to non-foiling monohulls before the Match, I guess Dalts changed his mind:D

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11 minutes ago, An Interested Non-Sailor said:

Wouldn’t it take away a fair portion of the “lottery” effect if they stayed with 6 legs and the time limit rather than shorten the race after it had started.

Yesterday both races would have been abandoned (as was a CC race) - would that have been a bad outcome?

Shortening a race is standard practice for pretty much all forms of course racing. The RC in this case actually call that shortening significantly earlier than usual, which makes the shortening less of a lottery. 

The most impressive thing I saw yesterday was how quickly INEOS would commit to displacement and not force foiling if they didn't think they would get up. Avoiding negative VMG and sailing in the correct mode to the next puff is important. The difference between this and standard displacement racing is the reward for sailing better tactically is a 20kts speed delta as opposed to a 2kts one.

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Thinking about the races yesterday, I don't really think that what we saw, is what the AC75 is about. They're high performance boats, but drifting around in 3kts of wind is not high performance. I think the city courses are too inconsistent in light airs. There might 7 or  8 kts at the start, but it's certainly not consistent across the course - as we saw. In light airs they should race out on the gulf, where hopefully there will be less course bias, more consistent breeze, and not so much of a minefield.

Can you imagine if those races were in the actual Cup match? The Cup being decided by lottery drift? I wouldn't want to win it that way, and certainly wouldn't want to lose it that way. A very poor dividend for those boats. There needs to be less emphasis on the stadium courses in the light airs - where it might be great for the spectators, but not good sailing.

I think those races should have been cancelled and rescheduled. They didn't look or feel right whatsoever. Who the hell is going to want to spend a $100 million+ to be sent home in races like that? It's not tenable. Grant needs to have a chat with Ian, and rethink where they race. I think the lower wind limit is just okay, but it has to be consistent across the course, and not so fucking patchy.

Nailed it!!!! 

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2 hours ago, NZL4EVER said:

Any predictions for today? 

Mine there will be a capsize.... 

I predict GB and AM to win. That is based on hope as much as analysis, but 

GB looking good and have tended to be strong in higher winds even before they better.

AM aren't as bad as their 0-3 record suggests so they will won at some point. 

But more from hope because that will mean GB would only need to win 2 more to guarantee top spot in the RRs and thus the bye

 

 

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Anyone who has sailed in Auckland has been screwed (or screwed others) by patchy harbour winds, it's simply a result of the topography.

Having said that,  save the rangi channel courses for days with a decent breeze, and on light days sail elsewhere. 

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I respect Terry and Dean. But damn they have a shitty attitude right now. INEOS had huge problems last month, but they look good now and I am not sure if LR or AM can beat them in any conditions. Really looking forward to watching the racing in heavy wind this evening! Announcing, graphics and information about how the boats are doing against each other has been pretty great, IMO. I think Kenny, Shirley, and Nathan are pretty great at presenting this stuff.

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There’s a lot of grumbling about those races. Have you guys never had similar? It’s sailing... it happens and it’s how you deal with it that counts. I actually enjoyed watching it as it was tense. Have some great memories of races in the Solent of drifters (generally because we smashed it of course!).

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Just now, The Main Man said:

There’s a lot of grumbling about those races. Have you guys never had similar? It’s sailing... it happens and it’s how you deal with it that counts. I actually enjoyed watching it as it was tense. Have some great memories of races in the Solent of drifters (generally because we smashed it of course!).

I agree.  I can't remember a lengthy regatta that I was sailing in that didn't have at least one race that didn't turn into a drifter or where ALL the races were completed.

AM dropped the ball day 1 AND day 2.  The other teams played smarter and appeared to have better boats for the job.  I'm really surprised that Barker's "local knowledge" didn't give him an advantage.

I think someone else has mentioned it in a post but in those types of conditions that were experienced yesterday you have to concede boat speed and VMG to make sure you stay within the areas of pressure.  Make more tacks and gybes to stay there than you would normally do.  INEOS did that brilliantly.

Barker and Hutch went searching rather than staying in the zones of pressure for as long as they could.  These boats sail out of the wind quicker than they sail into it!  They stuffed both starts and should have used their local knowledge and stayed in the right-hand half of the course and clawed their way up the glass.  Instead, in my opinion, they were stuck in the "we have a faster boat we just need to find pressure to sail it in no matter where it is."

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23 minutes ago, kenergy said:

Anyone who has sailed in Auckland has been screwed (or screwed others) by patchy harbour winds, it's simply a result of the topography.

Topography both above AND below the water.  LOL it cracks me up watching all those spectator goons sitting over Bean Rock and its associated reef!

I've been in a couple of club races where everyone is trying to get as close to North Head as possible to pick up the flick round.  Twice the helmsman has misjudged it and driven the keel into the sand/mud on the Devonport side.

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The right foil is making the difference and teams have to chose it 5 days before the race, OTOH locals also say that conditions may very much differ depending on the chosen course, for once I agree with Horn Rack that yesterday should have been sailed on the ocean ones,

So, a bit far fetched, but we can say that IM decision about the race course partly decides the winner. So,

1) what criteria are used to chose the race cours  ? lower wind ? max wind ? closer to the limit ? number of persons watching ?

2) why didn't he chose an ocean race yesterday ?

3) it's supposed to be windy today, what course ? why ?

How can the teams decide in advance the right set of foils when they don't know which wind conditions will be CHOSEN by IM ?

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These low wind days with these boats are a cluster F.  I know low winds are common in typical sailing, but these boats are not typical sailboats.  We all discussed the major disadvantage of falling off the foils, but most of us were talking about boat handling errors or major design deficiencies.  Yes, I am an AM fan and they really did a poor job of reading the wind, but that is not why I am complaining.  

It is like you went to go see an airplane race, but because of fog they all had to stay on the ground and ran around a track on their wheels.  We talk about how the excitement of foiling boats will bring in new fans, what do you think the casual fans is saying about those races?  The races should have been called off.   It is like running a F1 race with flat tires.  

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11 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

No, you corrected it wrong. A lot of people make that mistake, but an onshore pressure gradient slows or even stops a sea breeze forming, an offshore breeze helps the sea breeze form and strengthens it. The key is that a sea breeze has and needs an offshore circulation at altitude to allow the onshore element at sea level to form properly. 

See any decent book on the subject, but I also had it drummed in by GB Olympic coach (no I wasnt olympian, but he also trained offshore team)

Nz has the convergence where the pressure gradient allows a sea breeze to push across the entire island in a couple of hours. I posted the rasp showing the west sea breeze pushing the east breeze out to sea and forming the convergence over the course. Overall pressure gradient influences the position of the.line of convergence. In Auckland as the convergence passes the wind stops and a dead dull heat sets in. For cross country gliding this line produced world records as the air goes straight up forming a distinct cloud line. Also probably gave the name, "the land of the long white cloud", Aotearoa. The nz rasp " regional aero soaring profile", is a high resolution grid forecast that visualizes light air days well.

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