Jump to content

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 8.2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Having a race like that is why the committee was correct in postponing the race so many times. I think that the race was worth the wait.  Cheers to the Race Committee!

Semi Final Race 1 book is open - hit like for an AM win, dislike for LRPP.  Don’t sit on the fence now!

Please just stick to the facts and not your opinion.  You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how this all works.  The flu is down because of all the hand washing, social distancing, mask wearing,

Posted Images

4 minutes ago, Rushman said:

Time for some video analysis...

A friend has just sent me a text... he claims there was a spot near the port foil “creasing” during lap 2 that he noticed

(he has years of boat building experience)

At 2:31.00 in the video below, the port foil arm starts to drop down on its own before presumably someone noticed it and raised it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwwGdeOZKxc&feature=emb_logo

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Poor prick. He seems a top bloke and sure as shit doesn't deserve this crap.

Nothing a conservative mark rounding given Amways handy lead wouldn’t have solved.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Good video.  But what I noticed was Barker asked the question about the rounding midway down.  He wasn't answered then they got distracted discussing where the pressure was.  Then very quickly the mark comes up and the have a rushed discussion about it.  

They should have made the decision much sooner and set themselves up for it.  The last thing Barker says was "I've lost the rudder".

Yes it seems like both first Barker and later Goodison were having second thoughts, unclear if TH replied, but the decision seemed to get a bit lost.

At the time of capsize despite being dramatic it didn't look especially damaging. Just rewatched the end of the international stream and none of the commentators were concerned about serious boat damage until it came back up. Read immediately pointed out the boat was taking on lots of water and then... they finished the broadcast.

Striking video. Helming that manoeuvre from the leeward side, rather him than me.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Indio said:

At 2:31.00 in the video below, the port foil arm starts to drop down on its own before presumably someone noticed it and raised it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwwGdeOZKxc&feature=emb_logo

Hmmmm, interesting one that.

It seems jerky as they raise it, you would think there would be hydraulic valves in place to stop it coming down via cylinder leakage or the like.  Perhaps you have to manually engage the solenoid valve to keep the foil up and this was not done? 

I used to work in hydraulics but I daresay the lift/lower system on these foils are a fair bit more complex that your standard excavator boom!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's like they were all talking to each but not listening to one another.  Dean clearly asked for guidance on the mark rounding a good distance out and was ignored, then before you know it they're at the mark and panic sets in.   Even if it's a long-ish rebuild for Patriot, I hope Defiant is ready for the team to sail as the afterguard needs to refine their processes if they want to make it to the AC.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm hearing reports that the foil arm support structure on the port side failed with the impact and the damage tore open the hull. 

If this is the case, then it's indeed the saddest of days for this team. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, mezaire said:

Hmmmm, interesting one that.

It seems jerky as they raise it, you would think there would be hydraulic valves in place to stop it coming down via cylinder leakage or the like.  Perhaps you have to manually engage the solenoid valve to keep the foil up and this was not done? 

I used to work in hydraulics but I daresay the lift/lower system on these foils are a fair bit more complex that your standard excavator boom!!

If it was lowering on its own due to leakage across the pistons, you'd expect it to be a slow drift, not the steady lowering before it was raised. A seal failure would explain the steady lowering, which would also result in an inability to hold load when they needed it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Oh fuck, you mean the old terminal right near the cup bases?

If so, that was quick.

Was it towed or placed on a barge?

Towed. There's a few boats around it. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Rushman said:

Leg 5, Foxtel feed with KR and NO commentary

 

I just watched that again and compared it to the other side, looks pretty much the same.

Plus you'd think that they would have so many censors everywhere that if the hull creased like that, they would know about it!

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Indio said:

If it was lowering on its own due to leakage across the pistons, you'd expect it to be a slow drift, not the steady lowering before it was raised. A seal failure would explain the steady lowering, which would also result in an inability to hold load when they needed it.

Yeah you're right.  Probably operator or software error then

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, eurochild said:

At the time of capsize despite being dramatic it didn't look especially damaging. Just rewatched the end of the international stream and none of the commentators were concerned about serious boat damage until it came back up. Read immediately pointed out the boat was taking on lots of water and then... they finished the broadcast.

Curious about that decision.

Perhaps if the commentators had noticed this:

36355784_AMbits.thumb.png.834fd87be71dbf4347e65190a074d3d0.png

If it floats, it's carbon sandwich, so likely a chunk of hull.

It's also just visible here before they wend over, immediately after they crashed back down:

1047818268_AMbits1.thumb.png.3e75614d6548dd8fa57f74128b21dc1b.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Indio said:

 

If true, the entire foil arm assembly is a supplied item - was LR responsible for it?

But if it was the bonding to the hull that failed not the arm, is that OD supplied?

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, sailman said:

How much could a Code 0 possibly weigh and why aren’t they using them in the light air?

No croo ahed ov ~jib trak, to minimyz risk ov becuming sooshi

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mezaire said:

I just watched that again and compared it to the other side, looks pretty much the same.

Plus you'd think that they would have so many censors everywhere that if the hull creased like that, they would know about it!

I can’t view it again on Foxtel Go but he was watching the crease get worse after first noticing it on leg 2

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Indio said:

 

If true, the entire foil arm assembly is a supplied item - was LR responsible for it?

I dunno. 

I have heard from another person that the team will make a statement early tomorrow morning. It's not looking good. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Once again:

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, RobG said:

Perhaps if the commentators had noticed this:

36355784_AMbits.thumb.png.834fd87be71dbf4347e65190a074d3d0.png

If it floats, it's carbon sandwich, so likely a chunk of hull.

You can see it (I assume it's the same piece) a second or so after slamming back down (bobs up near stern). Must be the same piece the RIB offloaded earlier. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Poor prick. He seems a top bloke and sure as shit doesn't deserve this crap.

He keeps holding his hand up, and he's well paid for it.

Maybe it's time he quit.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, RobG said:

Perhaps if the commentators had noticed this:

36355784_AMbits.thumb.png.834fd87be71dbf4347e65190a074d3d0.png

If it floats, it's carbon sandwich, so likely a chunk of hull.

It's also just visible here before they wend over, immediately after they crashed back down:

1047818268_AMbits1.thumb.png.3e75614d6548dd8fa57f74128b21dc1b.png

I saw that when watching it live (The top pic) but dismissed it as too far away from the boat.

Watching back now I think you're right, you can see it float away in slowmo that the 2nd pic is taken from

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, mezaire said:

Watching Live Sail Die live coverage and as they lifted AM I saw a shadow which would of been about 2-3m in front of the port foil, which looked like a hole!

 

Could be an easy fix then :ph34r:

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Rushman said:

Any idea what could have caused that?

How far in front of the foil is it?

The assumption is (I think) that it is the fwd support for the foil that ripped the hull apart!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Fixing the carbon will be relatively easy compared to the complete re wire that they will need. I guess they will need to change every thing inside as the salt will make it unreliable. I hope they can pull it off. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Not an easy fix 

E19EADF9-B9A2-46B9-BB69-2C4E9CC428A0.jpeg

:blink:

Holy shit... 

I hope this can be repaired! 

I can't really visualise why this hole damage would have happened... It all seemed quite gentle. Why would an opening appear there? 

How close is its the foil arm axis? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jesus, impressive job by AM (and everyone that helped) to get that back to the dock and on the cradle.  With a hole that size it should be at the bottom of the gulf right now.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

:blink:

Holy shit... 

I hope this can be repaired! 

I can't really visualise why this hole damage would have happened... It all seemed quite gentle. Why would an opening appear there? 

How close is its the foil arm axis? 

I recon 7.5 tonnes moving at 45mph dropping out of the sky onto a flat hard surface should do it.

especially when you add in the compressive load that went through the foil arm and up onto the hull before the hull hit.

if the FCS isn’t fucked/moved in its mounting I would be very surprised 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, NSP said:

Jesus, impressive job by AM (and everyone that helped) to get that back to the dock and on the cradle.  With a hole that size it should be at the bottom of the gulf right now.

That's what I thought would happen. In the next photo you can see the water streaming in with the weigth of ballast in the foils dragging it down.
138326057_257061772442358_4263876502405415560_o.thumb.jpg.22dd588bfbc0181a1d0c9ab8906ae8da.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, hoom said:

Jebus.

Thats cracked forward, aft, above & below the hull.

They are gonna need to get Defiant back into working order.

They could rebuild a section on the original mold and fly it out to NZ 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Rushman said:

@JALhazmat... yep, that is fooked!!

Kiwi boat builder... “yeh, nah.. should of let it sink”

You can see where the fibres have stripped off diagonally from the skin all the way to the top sides 

thats an enormous job.

BAR in Bermuda was nothing like that bad a d they opened a 25ft hole to repair it. This is way bigger 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing they kept it afloat.

I wonder if something internally became dislodged and sent through? I would have thought the slam would push the hull inwards and not smash a rectangle out.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Swanno said:

Amazing they kept it afloat.

I wonder if something internally became dislodged and sent through? I would have thought the slam would push the hull inwards and not smash a rectangle out.

If you watch the footage of the crash you can see the bit of carbon hull come clear of the stern just after touchdown and then see it floating 50m away or so.  Assuming this is the same piece being unloaded in the earlier pic.

I'm assuming it is where a fwd support arm for the foil is attached to the hull, or even just fwd of that position..  The huge force aft on the foil, forced the support arm through the hull and then the water pressure tore it away!!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Indio said:

I think it'll be repaired as everyone pitches in to help. 5 days..

Maybe the kiwis will hoist their boat one up into their shoulders and March the boat around to the American base singing “Slice of Heaven”.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

I recon 7.5 tonnes moving at 45mph dropping out of the sky onto a flat hard surface should do it.

especially when you add in the compressive load that went through the foil arm and up onto the hull before the hull hit.

if the FCS isn’t fucked/moved in its mounting I would be very surprised 

I agree it was probably the highest speed jump and capsize seen so far. 

Slam loads are notoriously difficult to design for as designers are guestimating the load case... 

IMOCAs are also struggling to make the composite structures work in such loading scenarios 

Othet teams will probably think about their bow section stiffening.. 

 

As someone mentioned above, the section taken out to enable repair is usually quite a big bigger than the hole... 

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the support structure around the foil arm bearing has braces running forward and aft, isn't it likely the forward brace was punched out through the hull as the foil arm is wrenched backwards during the crash down? This would also twist the whole center of the boat, with stress at right angles to the exposed carbon lines

edit: mezaire says the same thing above

Edited by asw456
more info
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, asw456 said:

If the support structure around the foil arm bearing has braces running forward and aft, isn't it likely the forward brace was punched out through the hull as the foil arm is wrenched backwards during the crash down? This would also twist the whole center of the boat, with stress at right angles to the exposed carbon lines

edit: mezaire says the same thing above

If this is true.. where is the brace now?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree there was massive loading on the foil - yet there 'appears' to have been no movement at/around the bearing itself which you would have to expect if the supporting structure failed.

So then you have the port side slam/deceleration...

Video from Stuff... 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/123974194/americas-cup-american-magic-boat-seriously-damaged-in-dramatic-capsize

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Horn Rock said:

Wow, that's a huge hole. Surprised they got the boat back. Things aren't looking good for our American friends unfortunately.

Very hard for them because over the three races today Prada was faster upwind in both races vs the frackers (even though they lost the lead in the first with the wind shift and the win in the second) and then Magic was faster than Prada in the last race. So extrapolating plenty to play and two weeks should be time enough. 

I wonder if the other three teams will step in to help repairs. Ben I think was the only one to help TNZ in Bermuda though was that after he had been knocked out?

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Assuming AM doesnt show up until the semi final.......then the RR will consist of two more races between LR and Ineos.

If LR wins both races than it will be a dead heat tie

Both boats will be 6:2 and Each will have beaten the other 2 times, so I guess they will have to have a 3rd race,

On the other hand, Ineos only has to win one of the two races and they advance to final. 

Haven

t read the SIs but likely in a dead heat the winner of the last race sailed would proceed - would have to check though

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Rushman said:

If this is true.. where is the brace now?

Just my thoughts, but if the support joined the hull just aft of the hole, it might of caused the hull to flex out and the weak point that gave way was at the front of the hole.

Then as they touched down the water pressure at 30 odd knots then tore the piece out of the hull.

Similar to when a boat looses it's keel from a hard grounding, often the structural failure is more than a metre fore/aft of the keel.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, mezaire said:

Just my thoughts, but if the support joined the hull just aft of the hole, it might of caused the hull to flex out and the weak point that gave way was at the front of the hole.

Then as they touched down the water pressure at 30 odd knots then tore the piece out of the hull.

Similar to when a boat looses it's keel from a hard grounding, often the structural failure is more than a metre fore/aft of the keel.

Hopefully there will be a full report released tomorrow

Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, eric e said:

am1sm.jpg

Has anyone seen any video footage or photo of AM whilst she was on her side that showed the extent of that hole before it was made bigger by the divers cutting whatever they cut away or was the hole below the waterline even when capsized? Obviously there was water coming in before they righted her so maybe the hole was below the waterline.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Assuming AM doesnt show up until the semi final.......then the RR will consist of two more races between LR and Ineos.

If LR wins both races than it will be a dead heat tie

Both boats will be 6:2 and Each will have beaten the other 2 times, so I guess they will have to have a 3rd race,

On the other hand, Ineos only has to win one of the two races and they advance to final. 

Haven'' t read the SIs but likely in a dead heat the winner of the last race sailed would proceed - would have to check though

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

a bit of thread drift but while browsing youtube i saw "The Challenge Mini Series". I saw this back in the 80's and is a dramatised story of Alan Bond's AC attempt.  reckoned at the time to be well researched and reasonably accurate it might help the Monday to Thursday AC withdrawal symptoms.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Haven'' t read the SIs but likely in a dead heat the winner of the last race sailed would proceed - would have to check though

 

Correct, someone else already checked. If AM skips the remaining RR and LR wins both remaining races against Ineos, then and only then do they go directly to the final.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

So extrapolating plenty to play and two weeks should be time enough. 

Assuming it's going to need a new FCS. I wonder if that system is installed before the deck is bonded to the hull?

Link to post
Share on other sites