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Having a race like that is why the committee was correct in postponing the race so many times. I think that the race was worth the wait.  Cheers to the Race Committee!

Semi Final Race 1 book is open - hit like for an AM win, dislike for LRPP.  Don’t sit on the fence now!

Funny when I click on the cup site I get this:

Posted Images

21 minutes ago, waterboy42 said:

It will be interesting if there is any criticism of Race Management choosing possibly the most exposed Course option despite the sea state and unstable forecast...

Everything was well within the range of allowable conditions. Deano & co. just royally screwed up

deanomyson.thumb.png.87de2638bf8f0c3abc7c286c25d0ccd4.png

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Even the best make mistakes, just that the best at anything are trusted with more important or harder decisions, so when they get it wrong the consequences tend to be worse.

Anyone on here never made a mistake in a sailing race? Only those who've never raced.

Looks the me more the fault of the system than any individual anyway. Awareness and decision making are impared when the tactician is looking down rather than out

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1 hour ago, Manfred said:

You can read it in #11878, that someone heart someone to say, the FCS batterie dropped through the hull... If not „fake news“ this could be a good reason. On impact, these things can fly if not sealed bomb proof. 

I hope that ^ is based on more than just my postulation...

5 hours ago, nav said:

New batteries please, and some straps this time

 

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With regards to fault,  sure there didn't sound like a good decision making process leading up to the rounding and they picked a difficult option.  Yet they nearly pulled it off and I think the blame can get shared around a little bit:

  • Barker tacked, said he'd hold course a little, then gave a nice 3 count into the bear away.  But then he didn't wait for a clear call that the runner was OK before the bear away. Steering from the correct side might have allowed him to see the running still on, but then it's not his job to look up at the main, especially at 35kn accelerating to 40
  • Whoever does the runners should have shouted out that the runner had not yet been let go after the tack.  If they were having a problem they should have shouted hold hold hold
  • The main trimmer should have been looking at the sail and also seen the runner still on, so he could have shouted hold hold hold.
  • You'd reckon the systems on board would be recording the runner tension, so they could even of had an automatic system that gave an alarm if both runners were on.

So their normal procedures should include calls and/or system to always wait for the runners swap to be complete after a tack and before a bear away.   At least one or two crew other than the helm should have known the runner was on and yelled HOLD.    

It is never one thing, nor one person, when there is a stuff up like this.  Bad decision, bad procedures, bad execution and nobody noticed.

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, jaysper said:

Best race thus far by a fucking country mile.

It's been somewhat overshadowed by the AM capsize and damage but I agree,  INEOS v LR was a really exciting race. They look evenly matched and hope we're going to see a lot more of that. Also hoping that AM can make it back, even if only for the semis, if not then we're going to be a bit short of racing. Looks likely INEOS and LR will fight it out to be in the cup match but if AM do get back I wouldn't completely rule them out, they certainly have boat speed.

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15 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

You might get to see some actual racing this afternoon, LC. That would be pretty exciting, no?

Yeah not so much.

Wind picks up and you get one tight race, then the wind pics up again and we get to watch Deano screw up yet again and a really expensive boat blowup.  Not going to buff out.

 

 

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The fact that people are still trying to convince others that its exciting should tell you something. I have no doubt they’ll be back sailing sooner than later. Also sounds like a lot of people underestimate how hard it is to control a flying boat.  

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1 hour ago, sfigone said:

With regards to fault,  sure there didn't sound like a good decision making process leading up to the rounding and they picked a difficult option.  Yet they nearly pulled it off and I think the blame can get shared around a little bit:

  • Barker tacked, said he'd hold course a little, then gave a nice 3 count into the bear away.  But then he didn't wait for a clear call that the runner was OK before the bear away. Steering from the correct side might have allowed him to see the running still on, but then it's not his job to look up at the main, especially at 35kn accelerating to 40
  • Whoever does the runners should have shouted out that the runner had not yet been let go after the tack.  If they were having a problem they should have shouted hold hold hold
  • The main trimmer should have been looking at the sail and also seen the runner still on, so he could have shouted hold hold hold.
  • You'd reckon the systems on board would be recording the runner tension, so they could even of had an automatic system that gave an alarm if both runners were on.

So their normal procedures should include calls and/or system to always wait for the runners swap to be complete after a tack and before a bear away.   At least one or two crew other than the helm should have known the runner was on and yelled HOLD.    

It is never one thing, nor one person, when there is a stuff up like this.  Bad decision, bad procedures, bad execution and nobody noticed.

 

 

 

 

The runner is irrelevant. The main hardly ever passes the centreline,  never near the rail. The point is you cant just tack, reach off and gybe in high wind speeds on any performance boat.  Ask any 49er crew. You have to get downwind as soon as possible. DB just slowly bore away and got dumped. 

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I am not to sure if the runner was in fact the issue. I think it was at max ease.

If you look at the aerial footage you see that AM starts to bear away but then stops bearing away and straightlines in the middle of the power zone. When the puff hits, there is nowhere to go.  The sheet, traveller and the runner are at max ease and then the boat gets heeled and thus in trouble. The problem is that the boat isn't designed to reach at 90TWD so max ease is not much ease at all. So no good in a puff at 90TWD

If they continued their turn there wouldn't have been an issue.

Now, the question is if they stopped turning because DB really liked the numbers in the powerzone ;) or they couldn't turn further because of the power in the main or the rudder stalling. If that happened the turn wasn't quick enough.

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1 minute ago, underperformer said:

Now, the question is if they stopped turning because DB really liked the numbers in the powerzone ;) or they couldn't turn further because of the power in the main or the rudder stalling. If that happened the turn wasn't quick enough.

Turn wasn't quick enough and then the rudder lost grip.

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8 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

The runner is irrelevant. The main hardly ever passes the centreline,  never near the rail. The point is you cant just tack, reach off and gybe in high wind speeds on any performance boat.  Ask any 49er crew. You have to get downwind as soon as possible. DB just slowly bore away and got dumped. 

I agree nothing to do with runners.  Those that bang on about them don't have much clue about how these boats work.

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7 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

The runner is irrelevant. The main hardly ever passes the centreline,  never near the rail. The point is you cant just tack, reach off and gybe in high wind speeds on any performance boat.  Ask any 49er crew. You have to get downwind as soon as possible. DB just slowly bore away and got dumped. 

Boom over centreline is one thing but depowering the rig with twist through the mid leech and head is entirely another. 
 

if it couldn’t open (it couldn’t hence the image of it distorting the mid leech) then CofE is sat up high with a powered rig when you don’t want it too 

ask your 49er crew to bear away with no Cunningham when fully lit up and see if they think it’s a good idea. 
 

 

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18 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Turn wasn't quick enough and then the rudder lost grip.

My contention is that indeed the semi-exposed vertical rudder stalled. But then, comparing with classic catamarans in the death zone that capsize/go down the mine, the great difference is the presence of the stabilator which, beleve it or not, was still working and greatly pulling the stern down since the balancing thrust of the sail had disappeared - hence the sky jump

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3 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

I'm tending to go with the "battery" suggestions, especially considering the shape of the hole. Years ago I bought a heavy duty 120AHr 12v battery for my off-road setup - it weighed 33 kg. Size was of a "large" car battery. The size of the hole suggests something that could easily weigh 4 times more, as a very rough guess.

By way of comparison here's a pic of the cant system, although without the accumulators etc:

image.png.8e7e0ab31545f0991b191a7e3c5c484a.png

Speculation on my part of course - with a dash of hopeful thinking thrown in.

Surely they will use lithium batteries... A couple of orders of magnitude lighter than the examples you give.

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11 hours ago, RobG said:

Someone mentioned fothering… word of the day.

Heh.  I thought the same thing.  I suppose a plastic sail makes as good a fothering mat as cotton/canvas with a bunch of fuzzies sticking out of it...

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So why is the tack and bear away in big breeze the wrong move vs bear away.  It would seem that the tack would get you into a slower mode which should help in the bear down.  Looking at the replay it looks like they were almost all the way down when the rudder broke loose which caused the round up.

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35 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I agree nothing to do with runners.  Those that bang on about them don't have much clue about how these boats work.

Outeridge mentioned the runner in the commentary and I fancy he knows a thing or two about AC boats and 49ers.

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On a cat we have the main centered downwind but we ease the traveller during the bear away, I don't know about the AC75 but I am sure Nathan knows.

Interesting too, we have seen a couple of AC75 capsizing with the jib eased while in strong conditions we often keep maximum tension to depower it,

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10 hours ago, Afrayedknot said:

And your math is wrong... 

 

ineo on 6 if AM doesn’t sail. 
LR on 4 if AM doesn’t sail. 

Yours too, I think.

If AM forfeits all 4 of next week's races, and Ineos wins all 4 of theirs, it ends
-- ineos with 8
-- LR with 4

(there are 3 points on the table in each of the 4 three-race round-robins)

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10 minutes ago, sailman said:

So why is the tack and bear away in big breeze the wrong move vs bear away.  It would seem that the tack would get you into a slower mode which should help in the bear down.  Looking at the replay it looks like they were almost all the way down when the rudder broke loose which caused the round up.

Nope in HP boats that can't beam reach in above 15 kts fast is your friend either setting up for the bearaway or gybeing - when going fast your (tiny) rudder can command more grip lower cl) and you can steer quickly and decisively through the "danger zone" and off downwind. Coordination of sheeting of sails and heel also v important.

I think other AC teams here have said that they'd sail nd get themselves sorted for 10 seconds at least after a tack before going for bearaway in big breeze.

My sense is that if it was a less chaotic manoeuvre they could have got away with the runner being on.

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15 minutes ago, sailman said:

So why is the tack and bear away in big breeze the wrong move vs bear away.  It would seem that the tack would get you into a slower mode which should help in the bear down.  Looking at the replay it looks like they were almost all the way down when the rudder broke loose which caused the round up.

Contrary, the faster you go the safest because you have less pressure on the rig.

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8 hours ago, Swanno said:

Amazing they kept it afloat.

I wonder if something internally became dislodged and sent through? I would have thought the slam would push the hull inwards and not smash a rectangle out.

Each of the Torqeedo 48-5000 Battery packs powering the foil arm hydraulics weighs 36.5kgs - that's quite a missile if it dislodged during impact.

Dimensions (L x H x B) 506 mm x 224 mm x 386 mm

image.png.8b378cf6172d1b8a07d04c5fd1ef8a0b.png

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9 hours ago, underperformer said:

I don’t think anyone can pay me enough money to make me go thru a hole that small into a sinking boat. 

Agreed.

If it goes down, you're fucked.

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8 minutes ago, Indio said:

Each of the Torqeedo 48-5000 Battery packs powering the foil arm hydraulics weighs 36.5kgs - that's quite a missile if it dislodged during impact.

image.png.8b378cf6172d1b8a07d04c5fd1ef8a0b.png

One of those going free off Campbells Bay. As is, where is.

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9 minutes ago, Indio said:

Each of the Torqeedo 48-5000 Battery packs powering the foil arm hydraulics weighs 36.5kgs - that's quite a missile if it dislodged during impact.

Dimensions (L x H x B) 506 mm x 224 mm x 386 mm

image.png.8b378cf6172d1b8a07d04c5fd1ef8a0b.png

Yes. 35kg at 25 knots to zero means 107kn on impact (10 tonnes), equals a neat rectangular hole!

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Was anyone else really unimpressed with the coverage and their decision to move away from the action once the race had been called?

TVNZ went back to Toni Street in the studio talking about how excited she was - before Patriot was righted, and then went to the 6PM news slot. 

The YouTube stream showed Patriot being righted but being obviously crook and sitting way too low in the water. However they still pulled away from the coverage and wound-up the stream. 

F1 has an hour-long post-show for pretty much this exact reason - I was stunned someone didn't think to just carry on the stream, instead of pulling it in the midst of the most dramatic moment of the event. 

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22 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Outeridge mentioned the runner in the commentary and I fancy he knows a thing or two about AC boats and 49ers.

Maybe he does know a bit about AC boats - he certainly knows how to fall off them.

In my opinion AM chose a maneuver but for a number of reasons didn't fully commit to it.  Some of those reasons were systems failures in terms of communication.  You can't do anything half arsed on these boats.  I think Burling has been quoted as saying that it's full throttle or you fuck up.  

In my opinion the runners argument is a red herring.  I reckon AM and to a lesser extent INEOS because of their main setup have less capability to depower than LR and ETNZ.  That is the rigid boom and shorter traveller range of AM narrows the margin of error and so if you do something you have to go for it and nail it.  If you have a disagreement or confusion onboard then you aint going to nail it regardless of what you are doing with your runners.

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1 minute ago, NorthofSouth said:

Was anyone else really unimpressed with the coverage and their decision to move away from the action once the race had been called?

TVNZ went back to Toni Street in the studio talking about how excited she was - before Patriot was righted, and then went to the 6PM news slot. 

The YouTube stream showed Patriot being righted but being obviously crook and sitting way too low in the water. However they still pulled away from the coverage and wound-up the stream. 

F1 has an hour-long post-show for pretty much this exact reason - I was stunned someone didn't think to just carry on the stream, instead of pulling it in the midst of the most dramatic moment of the event. 

Tend to agree - the immediate post match analysis has been very poor.  Although I can't quite understand why for two hours I watched the Live Sail Die Facebook stream.  The young lady doing the commentary on that feed did a "it looks promising" job but you only had to look at the questions on this forum to understand that it was an opportunity missed in terms of mainstream broadcasting.

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On the battery theory, doesn't add up to me....

Firstly if it was a battery being thrown fwd, then you think the hole would be right in the bow as where the hole is would of only been a glancing blow.

Secondly, the boat didn't actually go from 45 knots to zero that quickly at all.  If you watch the footage they still have the speed of AM showing and she is still doing 11 knots when the hull touches back down.

 

Just my thoughts 

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I know there is a view that the hole was fro. In to out, but I don't know what was done when fothering etc so that could be misleading. 

I just wondered if anyone has seen all of the port foil because with the boat coming down onto that, half of it could have easily bounced off the water and gone straight up through the boat.

No evidence, just a question

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13 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Yes. 35kg at 25 knots to zero means 107kn on impact (10 tonnes), equals a neat rectangular hole!

Can one of y'all please put some yellow lines around a picture of the hole, estimate its dimensions and compare them to the dimensions of the specified battery? It could end a lot of speculation. (It is beyond my capabilities.)

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Nice piece by Magnus..

Patriot’s Together

It was drama of the highest order that stands up to anything that we have seen in Formula 1 or any other high-octane equipment sport. The American Magic capsize yesterday, however, showed another side of the America’s Cup and it’s a quality that sailors recognise worldwide and a code that every racing sailor signs up to. It is the Fundamental Rule 1.1 of sailing in the International Racing Rules and states: “A boat or competitor shall give all possible help to any person or vessel in danger.”

1610881348000-4.jpg?w=1024 ©Ricky Wilson / Stuff.co.nz

As Patriot capsized, immediately an armada of chase boats was on the scene and this was quickly followed up superbly by all of the race teams lending every possible piece of support, equipment and manpower that they could muster to save the wounded American yacht. The New Zealand Fire Brigade came in with pumps and the Coastguard was on hand to lend assistance. Collectively, miraculously, everyone pulled together in American Magic’s hour of need and stabilised the lifeless, helpless, carbon goliath as it drifted holed and direction-less on the tide.

Amidst the shock and sheer sadness of the situation, it was also one of the most magnificent sights of human compassion and determination that I have seen in the America’s Cup and all credit to every single person who battled so tenaciously to save the vessel.

So often we get whooped-up into the rivalry of the Cup that it’s easy to forget that real people with real human feelings are involved. At one level this game is a cut-throat business played out by ruthless billionaires and swashbuckling athletes at the peak of their testosterone. But when it comes to it, it’s a human endeavour and remarkable when you get to see the Cup community come together as one. The sight of Pete Burling from Emirates Team New Zealand arriving on the scene and helping out folding sails says it all. This was the moment to put team dynamics and egos to one side and just throw everything at the unfolding, fast-moving situation. Brilliant.

1610881348000-5.jpg?w=1024 ©Ricky Wilson / Stuff.co.nz

Patriot was some 10 miles out from the safety of the base and with the light fading this was no easy task. Getting the boat to shore in one piece was a feat of seamanship and a very long, slow process. Thankfully she’s ashore now, early on Monday morning and the damage can be assessed and the sailors can rest. You can’t help but feel for the Americans. This weekend has been so tough and so demoralising for everyone involved. The hopes of a nation and the hopes of the fabulous and esteemed New York Yacht Club were on their shoulders and yesterday they were performing so magnificently in the actual race that this is such a hard blow to take.

My hope is that the team can get racing again and rise from the ashes, phoenix-like, from the depths of not only the Hauraki Gulf but despair. They have twelve days to the start of the Prada Cup semi-final series, I am praying for their sakes that it is enough time to effect the repairs and get back out there. What a story that would be.

1610881348000-3.jpg?w=1024 ©Ricky Wilson / Stuff.co.nz

Thankfully nobody was injured. The capsize was heart-stopping. Literally in the space of a few seconds, I think we ran through every possible emotion as watchers from 12,000 miles away. At first peel-off I genuinely thought they could save it. Then, almost in slow-motion, you could see the leeward runner jamming and as the boat catapulted out of the water like a Polaris missile, there was feint hope of saving the situation. I had my hands in the air then across my mouth, willing for the best but the inevitable capsize was a really hard watch. The situation that then unfolded was unbearable.

Thank you to my readers for messaging links to view the situation unfold as the UK feed cut off and the official Prada Cup YouTube channel went off air. And a big shout out and well done to the excellent Live, Sail, Die Channel for streaming late into the evening on Instagram and Facebook as they miraculously kept their phone batteries from dying out on the water – great effort guys.

This is the hardest moment for American Magic. It’s a real test of everything the syndicate stands for and believes in. Everyone wants to see you back.

The story doesn’t end here.

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9 minutes ago, mezaire said:

On the battery theory, doesn't add up to me....

Firstly if it was a battery being thrown fwd, then you think the hole would be right in the bow as where the hole is would of only been a glancing blow.

Secondly, the boat didn't actually go from 45 knots to zero that quickly at all.  If you watch the footage they still have the speed of AM showing and she is still doing 11 knots when the hull touches back down.

 

Just my thoughts 

The  battery wasn't thrown forward, but sideways when the hull fell down on its side form 5 or 6 meters height

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20 minutes ago, mezaire said:

On the battery theory, doesn't add up to me....

Firstly if it was a battery being thrown fwd, then you think the hole would be right in the bow as where the hole is would of only been a glancing blow.

Secondly, the boat didn't actually go from 45 knots to zero that quickly at all.  If you watch the footage they still have the speed of AM showing and she is still doing 11 knots when the hull touches back down.

 

Just my thoughts 

It launched up in the air at over 20 knots and crashed down to earth on its side. 

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These grabs from the Day3 Highlights video::

Photo1 - Patriot on its still moving forward on its side, with no sign of damage:1557183316_Patriotholed1.thumb.JPG.8ee4017cc25433db2f8af17219182cd6.JPG

Photo 2 shows shards of carbon fibre where the hole is, after the video freezes for a few seconds:1597631921_Patriotholed.png.a3bf1ec487a3516d31ca87c4c5e6423c.png

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1 minute ago, Indio said:

These grabs from the Day3 Highlights video::

Photo1 - Patriot on its still moving forward on its side, with no sign of damage:1557183316_Patriotholed1.thumb.JPG.8ee4017cc25433db2f8af17219182cd6.JPG

Photo 2 shows shards of carbon fibre where the hole is, after the video freezes for a few seconds:1597631921_Patriotholed.png.a3bf1ec487a3516d31ca87c4c5e6423c.png

Ouch.

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10 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

It launched up in the air at over 20 knots and crashed down to earth on its side. 

Here we go a re-write of the facts.  The boat launched into the air and from the point on its forward velocity was dropping quickly - it foot planted the port foil then settled in the water.  The rolling over onto its side occurred at very low speed.  The only alarming part is when it launches and the initial foot plant which is probably when the damage occurred.  The rest is comparatively benign.

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4 minutes ago, Indio said:

These grabs from the Day3 Highlights video::

Photo1 - Patriot on its still moving forward on its side, with no sign of damage:1557183316_Patriotholed1.thumb.JPG.8ee4017cc25433db2f8af17219182cd6.JPG

Photo 2 shows shards of carbon fibre where the hole is, after the video freezes for a few seconds:1597631921_Patriotholed.png.a3bf1ec487a3516d31ca87c4c5e6423c.png

8 seconds between those two shots.  The damage most likely occurred at the first foot plant.  Some posters have talked about seemingly uncontrolled vertical movement of the foil arm.  From my observation the for some reason the foil arms on AM flutter/wobble more than the other boats.

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Here we go a re-write of the facts.  The boat launched into the air and from the point on its forward velocity was dropping quickly - it foot planted the port foil then settled in the water.  The rolling over onto its side occurred at very low speed.  The only alarming part is when it launches and the initial foot plant which is probably when the damage occurred.  The rest is comparatively benign.

From the video it was completely airborne apart from the rudder from what I could see. And how many tons falling back into the water?

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32 minutes ago, Varan said:

Can one of y'all please put some yellow lines around a picture of the hole, estimate its dimensions and compare them to the dimensions of the specified battery? It could end a lot of speculation. (It is beyond my capabilities.)

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/220236-head-like-a-hole/&tab=comments#comment-7377499

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13 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

From the video it was completely airborne apart from the rudder from what I could see. And how many tons falling back into the water?

Go back and have a look at the video again.  FFS these boats are "airborne" all the time!  The key point of damage is when the foot plant occurs.  Those forces on the foil arm were transmitted into the front of the boat.  The damage to the hull WASN'T done by the hull hitting the water - the damage had already happened.

If you look closely at the point the foil hits the water it plants down but starts to plane momentarily then suddenly digs in and the forces on the foil arm are parallel to the boat from bow to stern. A bit like you or I skidding on ice then hitting a brick with your foot.  All good until that point.

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24 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

It launched up in the air at over 20 knots and crashed down to earth on its side. 

Nah it skies, then crashes down on the bow, then tips over. You can hear the crack/ break of whatever it was on the audio clearly just before it tips. As it tipped it filled with water and game over.

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With composites you won't necessarily have a hole conveniently the same size as the falling object - likely to be a lot bigger depending variously on energy ( mass, velocity) and shape of object for sure but also layup of composite (skins, core) , framing / stiffening regime in that region, global stress in that region at the time etc etc.

Unlike say a Volvo boat these are showponies so its unlikely there will be much regs wise to govern sensible skin laminates for robustness, so generally this means delicate skins away from major structure. That said its not a 1980s IOR boat i.e. that part of the boat should be designed around some decent dynamic (faceplant) loads but I imagine dropping a 35kg battery from 5m on most composite panels that aren't 10mm monolithic RIB hulls would make a big mess.

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13 minutes ago, Indio said:

Photo 2 shows shards of carbon fibre where the hole is, after the video freezes for a few seconds:

Immediately after the freeze, the video actually shows the carbon shards popping off around the hole.

In the discussion about who called what coming into the mark, Dean's un-answered question can be explained by Hutchinson's comms being down, as mentioned several times by Kenny Read a little earlier. TH may have answered but we don't hear it and DB probably didn't either.

Maybe the comms issue disrupted the usual decision-making process.

Also excruciating to watch the cockpit cam with DB jammed under the main, hard against the side, trying to steer the boat and seeing it all slowly coming over on top of him.

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16 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

From the video it was completely airborne apart from the rudder from what I could see. And how many tons falling back into the water?

Yes. Completely airborne and definitely smashed back into the water on her side, the port foil taking the full force, by the look.

Screen Shot 2021-01-17 at 8.54.23 PM.png

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11 minutes ago, Daniel Holman said:

I imagine dropping a 35kg battery from 5m on most composite panels that aren't 10mm monolithic RIB hulls would make a big mess.

I mean it took a hell of a lot lighter piece of insulation foam hitting a likely thicker piece of reinforced carbon-carbon composite to put a hole in the wing of Space Shuttle Columbia. (Edit; yes the speeds are much higher I know; but I'd imagine the R-C-C panel on the shuttle is a fuck tonne tougher that the skin on an AC75)

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16 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Go back and have a look at the video again.  FFS these boats are "airborne" all the time!  The key point of damage is when the foot plant occurs.  Those forces on the foil arm were transmitted into the front of the boat.  The damage to the hull was done by the hull hitting the water.

If you look closely at the point the foil hits the water it plants down but starts to plane momentarily then suddenly digs in and the forces on the foil arm are parallel to the boat from bow to stern. A bit like you or I skidding on ice then hitting a brick with your foot.  All good until that point.

I agree that the Rapid Unplanned Disassembly happened when the hull hit the water.

If the peak deceleration that caused the battery to pop off the seat happened when foil footplanted hard, then we would have even seen it fly out - at this moment:

image.thumb.png.116bdaa4f05373d14bcc998ff1eaf871.png

 

I think the peak deceleration was when the hull slammed onto the water from this rather crazy height:

image.thumb.png.f5235decdb082ae581beafb2dfdfe68e.png

 

It's such a shame that bowsprit looking back cam froze... It would have showed some really interesting. Then again the water splashing/bow wave was covering the hole area until the boat slowed down.

Carbon strip shards visible, as posted before

image.thumb.png.f033886fa419745b9c34ef15237ca3ec.png

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There will be some life-time friendships forged from collaboration between boat-builders and support crews from fellow competitors to get Patriot repaired and back into the fray. Grant Dalton knows only too well how tough it was to repair Aotearoa in Bermuda, being so far from home, and despite there being another 5 competitors only Sir Ben stepped up with materials, etc.

ETNZ will be making their facilities and resources available to AM as needed, as will Team Ineos. The whining Italians?? Who cares..

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

I agree that the Rapid Unplanned Disassembly happened when the hull hit the water.

If the peak deceleration that caused the battery to pop off the seat happened when foil footplanted hard, then we would have even seen it fly out - at this moment:

image.thumb.png.116bdaa4f05373d14bcc998ff1eaf871.png

 

I think the peak deceleration was when the hull slammed onto the water from this rather crazy height:

image.thumb.png.f5235decdb082ae581beafb2dfdfe68e.png

 

It's such a shame that bowsprit looking back cam froze... It would have showed some really interesting

maybe it ran on a 'battery'

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2 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

I agree that the Rapid Unplanned Disassembly happened when the hull hit the water.

If the peak deceleration that caused the battery to pop off the seat happened when foil footplanted hard, then we would have even seen it fly out - at this moment:

image.thumb.png.116bdaa4f05373d14bcc998ff1eaf871.png

 

I think the peak deceleration was when the hull slammed onto the water from this rather crazy height:

image.thumb.png.f5235decdb082ae581beafb2dfdfe68e.png

 

It's such a shame that bowsprit looking back cam froze... It would have showed some really interesting

That height isn't too much dissimilar to other crash downs.  And if you look at the video at normal speed you will see that the actual hull "splashdown" is more splash than force.  The sea state contributed to that splash as well.  The destructive forces occurred when the foil foot planted and then dug in which all occurred while there was still a reasonable amount of forward velocity.  

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3 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

That height isn't too much dissimilar to other crash downs.  And if you look at the video at normal speed you will see that the actual hull "splashdown" is more splash than force.  The sea state contributed to that splash as well.  The destructive forces occurred when the foil foot planted and then dug in which all occurred while there was still a reasonable amount of forward velocity.  

I do agree that when it footplants it looks as if a shock load is going through, the boat shudders....

Perhaps that's when part of the seating of the battery got damaged (bolt, web, adhesive... ) and then when the footplant was followed by the splashdown the deceleration was enough to fully rip it off and send it flying forward

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Well imagine the damage on an AC72 or 50. they would need a trawler to collect all the bits.

 

hopefully we know the fate of patriot today. Fingers crossed it can be done. This will require a huge financial input as well, for a boat that hasn’t yet shown it was competitive..
 

 

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The port foil hit at roughly a 25 degree angle.  It would have had only a fraction of the lift of it hitting level to the water.  If it was the battery, then I'd agree with the assumption that it likely happened when the hull hit the water.  

Also, the battery wont have hit ths hull perfectly square, a corner or edge would have hit first, piercing the hull like a can opener. 

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33 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Here we go a re-write of the facts.  The boat launched into the air and from the point on its forward velocity was dropping quickly - it foot planted the port foil then settled in the water.  The rolling over onto its side occurred at very low speed.  The only alarming part is when it launches and the initial foot plant which is probably when the damage occurred.  The rest is comparatively benign.

In picture 1 from the daily highlights video. the 'footplant' has already occurred and the hull is on the way down, but no external damage is visible

The second picture is 9 seconds later, when the hull bobs back up after smashing into the water, that's when the damage first appears.

From the horizon in the background, you can also see that the hull came down at about a 45 degree angle, not much benign about that

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2 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

Perhaps that's when part of the seating of the battery got damaged (bolt, web, adhesive... ) and then when the footplant was followed by the splashdown the deceleration was enough to fully rip it off and send it flying forward

I'm not inclined to believe the loose cargo theory.  I think the straight edge of a square has some looking for something to fit the hole.  Also the hull at that point looks too thin to have anything screwed to it.  I'm thinking along the lines it may be a hull weakness.  Which wouldn't surprise me given the radically different shape of AM's hull.

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2 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

I do agree that when it footplants it looks as if a shock load is going through, the boat shudders....

Perhaps that's when part of the seating of the battery got damaged (bolt, web, adhesive... ) and then when the footplant was followed by the splashdown the deceleration was enough to fully rip it off and send it flying forward

Agree. Max decel would have occured when the hull slingshot onto water courtesy of the arm acting as pivot.

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2 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

In picture 1 from the daily highlights video. the 'footplant' has already occurred and the hull is on the way down, but no external damage is visible

 

What one frame from a video?  Are you sure the pic is of the Port side?  I've only seen pictures/video looking at the crash from the Starboard side.

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7 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Immediately after the freeze, the video actually shows the carbon shards popping off around the hole.

In the discussion about who called what coming into the mark, Dean's un-answered question can be explained by Hutchinson's comms being down, as mentioned several times by Kenny Read a little earlier. TH may have answered but we don't hear it and DB probably didn't either.

Maybe the comms issue disrupted the usual decision-making process.

Also excruciating to watch the cockpit cam with DB jammed under the main, hard against the side, trying to steer the boat and seeing it all slowly coming over on top of him.

Must have been a very nasty place to be to leeward

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5 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

What one frame from a video?  Are you sure the pic is of the Port side?  I've only seen pictures/video looking at the crash from the Starboard side.

It came from here, watch if for yourself!

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1 hour ago, NorthofSouth said:

Was anyone else really unimpressed with the coverage and their decision to move away from the action once the race had been called?

Personally I was happy at that point to be going back to sleep. Woke up 3 hours later to find what I'd assumed would be a simple capsize recovery was anything but.

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12 minutes ago, tDot said:

Also, the battery wont have hit ths hull perfectly square, a corner or edge would have hit first, piercing the hull like a can opener. 

Up until you said this I was picturing it hitting completely square-on and just leaving a wile e coyote type mark of its exact outline

 

Needless to say, your point makes way more sense

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8 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

It came from here, watch if for yourself!

Hang on a minute you can't even see the part where the hole is.  The hole isn't that far forward of the where the arm pivots.  So your pic supports the loose cargo theory.  We don't even know if the original hole was small and the "hatch" was cut by divers so they could get an inflatable flotation device in there.  One frame does show some fibre threads hanging down and this type of delam is seen on the piece of hull that was floating.

head-like-a-hole-1024x757.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I'm not inclined to believe the loose cargo theory.  I think the straight edge of a square has some looking for something to fit the hole.  Also the hull at that point looks too thin to have anything screwed to it.  I'm thinking along the lines it may be a hull weakness.  Which wouldn't surprise me given the radically different shape of AM's hull.

The battery or something else relatively heavy associated with Foil Cant System would have been mounted a bit further aft, roughly at the cross-section where the arms attach.

I agree that the hull outer surface is quite thin (carbon layers like ETNZ? shard strips suggest so) and nothing would have been mounted to it

So the theory is that some heavy boxy thing flew forward from where FCS is, slightly down and forward due to deceleration

image.png.60b80c1c838d5b893ec210594deb7a94.png

 

I'm also thinking that the hull damage is Not from:

- foil arm loading upon impact - structure around the dimple would show signs of cracking and maybe on both forward and aft side of the dimple

- water pressure upon slam - there'd be cracking, maybe even gaps, facing inwards, but would a rectangular piece pop off? it would more likely be lodged inside if this is what happened. But the team fished out a missing panel from the water...

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2 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Hang on a minute you can't even see the part where the hole is.

 

So how come we can see the damage clearly from the exact same camera just 9 seconds later? Grant you, can't see the hole, just the shards of carbon hanging off of the hull, but those definitely were not there in the first picture...

 

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5 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

I'm tending to go with the "battery" suggestions, especially considering the shape of the hole. Years ago I bought a heavy duty 120AHr 12v battery for my off-road setup - it weighed 33 kg. Size was of a "large" car battery. The size of the hole suggests something that could easily weigh 4 times more, as a very rough guess.

By way of comparison here's a pic of the cant system, although without the accumulators etc:

image.png.8e7e0ab31545f0991b191a7e3c5c484a.png

Speculation on my part of course - with a dash of hopeful thinking thrown in.

 

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6 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Hang on a minute you can't even see the part where the hole is.  The hole isn't that far forward of the where the arm pivots.  So your pic supports the loose cargo theory.  We don't even know if the original hole was small and the "hatch" was cut by divers so they could get an inflatable flotation device in there.

head-like-a-hole-1024x757.jpg

I think a round peg made that hole.

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36 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Yes. Completely airborne and definitely smashed back into the water on her side, the port foil taking the full force, by the look.

Screen Shot 2021-01-17 at 8.54.23 PM.png

Thanks for the pic reminder SBD, I thought i was seeing things from the replies to my post. 

Even at say 12 knots, a 35kg battery or hydraulic power pack inadequately secured would make a nice hole. Around 20kn impact equivalent to two tonnes!

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5 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

- water pressure upon slam - there'd be cracking, maybe even gaps, facing inwards, but would a rectangular piece pop off? it would more likely be lodged inside if this is what happened. But the team fished out a missing panel from the water...

Correct so if you are a forensic detective you would conclude that the piece of hull was pushed OUT not IN.  Bit like the murder mystery where the person murdered is on the inside of the house but the broken window glass is on the outside!

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3 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

So how come we can see the damage clearly from the exact same camera just 9 seconds later? Grant you, can't see the hole, just the shards of carbon hanging off of the hull, but those definitely were not there in the first picture...

 

Forward momentum had stopped or reduced to a point that the shards would fall down.

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5 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Correct so if you are a forensic detective you would conclude that the piece of hull was pushed OUT not IN.  Bit like the murder mystery where the person murdered is on the inside of the house but the broken window glass is on the outside!

Haha exactly

Now we just need to find the murder weapon.... 

Which is a battery at the bottom of the Gulf, somewhere near Course A... :P

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46 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Yes. Completely airborne and definitely smashed back into the water on her side, the port foil taking the full force, by the look.

Screen Shot 2021-01-17 at 8.54.23 PM.png

Can anyone extrapolate how quickly they are falling from the bird the flies past the stern?

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51 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Immediately after the freeze, the video actually shows the carbon shards popping off around the hole.

In the discussion about who called what coming into the mark, Dean's un-answered question can be explained by Hutchinson's comms being down, as mentioned several times by Kenny Read a little earlier. TH may have answered but we don't hear it and DB probably didn't either.

Maybe the comms issue disrupted the usual decision-making process.

Also excruciating to watch the cockpit cam with DB jammed under the main, hard against the side, trying to steer the boat and seeing it all slowly coming over on top of him.

I think i read and i have no idea where so no proof was that his comms to media was down but the internal com was ok.

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10 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

No way were divers going to cut a massive hole on the side of a AC contender. 

As I said unlikely.  But shit if you are trying to save several hundred million of investment sinking 25 meters into the sea and the pumps are taking there time to do the job getting a flotation device into the hull would push water out and keep the investment from sinking.

The four or five divers that were there weren't polishing the hull!

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I see the usual a900977400_Screenshot(1795).thumb.png.345d7f2094a42f92dfce54ea7841ca6b.pnganarchists are getting out of hand as to what caused that hole in AM. Its obvious init?

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