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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Tend to agree.  But how do you explain the floating piece of hull soon after the crash?  In saying that the piece seen being off loaded on shore doesn't seem the same shape as the hole.  So yes I'm leaning towards the hole being altered during the salvage process to assist in flotation.

Its definitely been cut mechanically, and that's the shape of the internal structure.

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Having a race like that is why the committee was correct in postponing the race so many times. I think that the race was worth the wait.  Cheers to the Race Committee!

Semi Final Race 1 book is open - hit like for an AM win, dislike for LRPP.  Don’t sit on the fence now!

Please just stick to the facts and not your opinion.  You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how this all works.  The flu is down because of all the hand washing, social distancing, mask wearing,

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8 minutes ago, dullers said:

I thought about a yellow arrow but then people would think I had an engineering degree.

Well I DO have an engineering degree and I officially deputise you as a member of the order of underground yellow line engineers.

You may now officially apply the appropriate colour! ;)

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5 hours ago, crashtack said:

Everything was well within the range of allowable conditions. Deano & co. just royally screwed up

deanomyson.thumb.png.87de2638bf8f0c3abc7c286c25d0ccd4.png

I do enjoy some of the humour on here.

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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Well I DO have an engineering degree and I officially deputise you as a member of the order of underground yellow line engineers.

You may now officially apply the appropriate colour! ;)

Thanks, I hope one day we meet.  I will tell people that a guy i know on the internet who has an engineering degree has endorsed my version of what caused the hole as the only official explanation. AM will agree now and it will save them hours of research

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really? divers having the tools to cut through that much carbon fibre in that little time

and 'we cant cover a little sharp hole so we will make a bigger one' ??????

they have hatches on the top big enough to fit a man in ... why would you need to cut a large sharp edge hole to fit an airbag in from the bottom?

I can't imagine TH giving the go-ahead "shes sinking, let's make it easier for water to come in and while your at it make it more difficult to repair"

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2 minutes ago, dullers said:

Thanks, I hope one day we meet.  I will tell people that a guy i know on the internet who has an engineering degree has endorsed my version of what caused the hole as the only official explanation. AM will agree now and it will save them hours of research

I have a degree in Info Tech too, so can deputise you so you are authorised to draw meaningless diagrams on a whiteboard too if you wish ;)

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To add to all the wild-eyed speculations, this is the depiction of the actual arm mechanical connections to the drum, and the hydraulic hardware, all mounted within a drop-in structure. A torpedo-shaped accumulator detached from its mount at impact could puncture that hull..586445569_Cantingsys1.thumb.JPG.008a2417db907908483f4818d2ba7d5d.JPG

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1 minute ago, Lickindip said:

really? divers having the tools to cut through that much carbon fibre in that little time

and 'we cant cover a little sharp hole so we will make a bigger one' ??????

they have hatches on the top big enough to fit a man in ... why would you need to cut a large sharp edge hole to fit an airbag in from the bottom?

I can't imagine TH giving the go-ahead "shes sinking, let's make it easier for water to come in and while your at it make it more difficult to repair"

Quite convincing arguments...

 

It was interesting to see that NYYC statement hasn't touched on the subject of what caused the damage and whether it was a good idea to attempt this tack-into-bear away

 

If something hit the hull shell from the inside and made a puncture hole then going for a semi-blind salvage cut would be risky (other internal structure in the way?) and enlarging the ingress hole...

Then again it is a bit difficult to imagine such a hole appearing on its own, but carbon composites tend to be a bit weird and shatter strangely..

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Just now, Lickindip said:

really? divers having the tools to cut through that much carbon fibre in that little time

and 'we cant cover a little sharp hole so we will make a bigger one' ??????

they have hatches on the top big enough to fit a man in ... why would you need to cut a large sharp edge hole to fit an airbag in from the bottom?

I can't imagine TH giving the go-ahead "shes sinking, let's make it easier for water to come in and while your at it make it more difficult to repair"

I doubt more water could get in. Even a hole the size of a fist could flood a 70 foot boat in about 10 mins or less and sink her. I suspect there are compartments and bulk heads that either slowed the water or stopped it going everywhere. If it was not water tight in some way she would have gone to the bottom pretty quickly. I am not sure if carbon is buoyant or not. Ask one of the yellow arrow brigades. It looks like air towards the stern of the boat kept her afloat as she was bow down. No compartments needed just trapped air.

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1 minute ago, Indio said:

To add to all the wild-eyed speculations, this is the depiction of the actual arm mechanical connections to the drum, and the hydraulic hardware, all mounted within a drop-in structure. A torpedo-shaped accumulator detached from its mount at impact could puncture that hull..586445569_Cantingsys1.thumb.JPG.008a2417db907908483f4818d2ba7d5d.JPG

Very useful find of a pic!

I wondered whether there'd be a bulkhead immediately forward of the central module, but then again the teams would want to leave in a maintenance envelope - we've been regularly hearing of on-water and on-dock battery changes, so they must have left room around it.

What if.... the attachment that failed was designed by ENTZ and be a one-supply solution to all... wouldn't that be nasty? :P

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20 minutes ago, E2nO said:

So: The hole you see is clearly man made. They did cut the it perhaps to allow the floating device to be attached and avoid rupturing it by the needle sharp carbon pieces protruding to the outside from the hole.

 

Why are there strings hanging around the hole if it was cut?

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5 minutes ago, Indio said:

To add to all the wild-eyed speculations, this is the depiction of the actual arm mechanical connections to the drum, and the hydraulic hardware, all mounted within a drop-in structure. A torpedo-shaped accumulator detached from its mount at impact could puncture that hull..586445569_Cantingsys1.thumb.JPG.008a2417db907908483f4818d2ba7d5d.JPG

Maybe we could get Max and co to do their diagrams and show the forces that would have transmitted along the foil arm  and the internal structure when the foot plant occurred.

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is there any evidence of actual divers working on the rescue operation?

All I saw were AM crew members getting in the water to put the fothering in place. I'd be surprised if they had access at that moment to tools to cut carbon underwater

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1 minute ago, Marty6 said:

Why are there strings hanging around the hole if it was cut?

Cut rip and tear. I have never cut a sheet of carbon underwater or above it so people who have might enlighten us on that.

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3 hours ago, ExOmo said:

To finish first, first you have to finish.

Carl E. could get it back in shape for the next race !!

 

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1 minute ago, alphafb552 said:

is there any evidence of actual divers working on the rescue operation?

All I saw were AM crew members getting in the water to put the fothering in place. I'd be surprised if they had access at that moment to tools to cut carbon underwater

Could have happened much later. I hope they fothered the hole in the traditional manner a la James Cook RN.

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2 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

is there any evidence of actual divers working on the rescue operation?

All I saw were AM crew members getting in the water to put the fothering in place. I'd be surprised if they had access at that moment to tools to cut carbon underwater

LSD and other press outlets who were there reported seeing divers in the water..

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13 minutes ago, crashtack said:

Flying Americans aside, has there been any word as to what happened with LR in the last race and being late to the line/going past boundary? Software failure?

Yes.

They lost completely the racing software and some info used for trimming (I assume ride height, etc). Start was done just using the timer

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8 minutes ago, weta27 said:

SA recommended procedure for stopping your vessel from sinking - "make a larger hole".

It's not implausible Weta.  Punch a pencil through a piece of paper and look at the jagged edges protruding outwards.  How would you cover that without puncturing what you were using to cover it?  Cut round the jagged bits and you have a flatter surface to close off.

In normal boating scenarios where you hole the hull it is because something has punched inwards so the jagged bits are on the inner.  In that scenario they are an advantage as it helps to secure the covering of the hole.

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12 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I have a degree in Info Tech too, so can deputise you so you are authorised to draw meaningless diagrams on a whiteboard too if you wish ;)

Feck. I have to go and buy a whiteboard now. I know the Americas cup is costly.

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27 minutes ago, Marty6 said:

Could have to do with the allotted time slot for the broadcast. Don't forget that there was that aborted race to start the day and they might have come up to the end of their time slot.

My understanding is the last race had to start by 6PM and there was provision for late-racing to be transferred over to DUKE/23 so the news hour could go ahead, but I could be wrong. 

The online streams on YT cutting off early is inexcusable though; as is the lack of post-race given it was the end of a round of the Prada Cup, not just a day's sailing. 

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3 hours ago, sailman said:

So why is the tack and bear away in big breeze the wrong move vs bear away.  It would seem that the tack would get you into a slower mode which should help in the bear down.  Looking at the replay it looks like they were almost all the way down when the rudder broke loose which caused the round up.

Let me count the ways:

1) The 'slower mode' that you are describing as a good thing is not.  By slowing down the apparent wind moves aft, the loads increase, and things tend to get worse rather than better.  If you go in full chat and accelerate you accelerate and sail out of the puff, and the apparent wind is forward which allows you to steer further downwind without loading up.

2) bearing away everyone stays in their places and you make one adjustment to the sails, ride height while accelerating and one turn down with the rudder.  If you tack, you have foils going up and down, you have important crew on the leeward side of the boat and in this case you went right into where the puff was vs. bearaway around the starboard mark away from the puff.

3) The bloody driver doesn't not know as much as the tactician so LISTEN TO HIM!!!

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12 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

is there any evidence of actual divers working on the rescue operation?

At least one diver in the water in one of the photos published on the NZ Herald coverage.

My son's mate is a chase boat driver/diver for AM, we think its him in the photo.

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

It's not implausible Weta.  Punch a pencil through a piece of paper and look at the jagged edges protruding outwards.  How would you cover that without puncturing what you were using to cover it?  Cut round the jagged bits and you have a flatter surface to close off.

Steel is malleable and could leave jagged pieces pointed out.  Carbon would snap and tear away.  There may be pieces hanging there, but not a bent hull poking out with actual strength to it. I'm having a hard time seeing a need to cut it to allow a better seal.... maybe for a flotation bag, but last time I saw one of those, it was pretty small before it was inflated. 

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3 minutes ago, tDot said:

Steel is malleable and could leave jagged pieces pointed out.  Carbon would snap and tear away.  There may be pieces hanging there, but not a bent hull poking out with actual strength to it. I'm having a hard time seeing a need to cut it to allow a better seal.... maybe for a flotation bag, but last time I saw one of those, it was pretty small before it was inflated. 

Good point.  Perhaps the hole was enlarged (if was enlarged) to remove something. 

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I don't know nuthin'..... but I have a hard time believing a diver cut a meter-square hole in the bottom of the boat to help solve the problem of a smaller hole.

Anyone have a screen-cap of a diver with an underwater SawZall?  Anyone?

I've seen pumps, lines, sails, floatation bags... but I haven't seen any big tools like that.

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10 minutes ago, weta27 said:

At least one diver in the water in one of the photos published on the NZ Herald coverage.

My son's mate is a chase boat driver/diver for AM, we think its him in the photo.

Any hope of getting the inside scoop? Might make SA boring, but it'd be sorta fun to know the truth.

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Yeah Goodison is a pretty well accomplished apparent wind sailor; they dont exactly hand out Moth WC's... Deano on the other hand.. ahem.

 

So now we have 1 race Friday and 1 race Sunday ... a break on Saturday.

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Just now, Tropical Madness said:

Looks like a crew member with a mask on, no apparatus in that shot

There's two guys in the water.  One on the right definitely is lacking scuba gear.  The one on the left, has some type of hose on his shoulder,  could be scuba, could be part of the teams rescue air?

 

Either way, it's ballsy to be jumping in the water with that many boats around,  and that much commotion all happening at once.

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24 minutes ago, tDot said:

The one on the left, has some type of hose on his shoulder,  could be scuba, could be part of the teams rescue air?

The guy on the left is confirmed as my son's mate - he is a team diver.

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48 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I don't know nuthin'..... but I have a hard time believing a diver cut a meter-square hole in the bottom of the boat to help solve the problem of a smaller hole.

Anyone have a screen-cap of a diver with an underwater SawZall?  Anyone?

I've seen pumps, lines, sails, floatation bags... but I haven't seen any big tools like that.

There is an assumption that the square hole was made soon after the capsize. It could have been made much later and even at the dock before lifting out.

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

ETNZ will be making their facilities and resources available to AM as needed, as will Team Ineos. The whining Italians?? Who cares

An outstandingly stupid comment - no mean feat, in your collection

LR have on site Stefano Beltrando, the boss of QI Composites and the recognized top guy for damage assesment. I’m sure he’ll be made available

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5 minutes ago, dullers said:

There is an assumption that the square hole was made soon after the capsize. It could have been made much later and even at the dock before lifting out.

i was at the dock during the lift out

there was 20min between removing the patches and seeing the hole, but that was used in getting the mast off, we could hear most of what was said on board and didn't hear any sawing or comments directed to anyone inside the flooded hole with a saw 

so if was cut it, it was cut out on the water before the jib and patch were applied 

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6 minutes ago, dullers said:

 It could have been made much later and even at the dock before lifting out.

This makes even less sense.  Get it all the way back to the dock, and then cut a bigger hole in it before assessing damage or forming a plan for fixing it?

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3 minutes ago, Xlot said:

An outstandingly stupid comment - no mean feat, in your collection

LR have on site Stefano Beltrando, the boss of QI Composites and the recognized top guy for damage assesment. I’m sure he’ll be made available

They'll be protesting any outside help for AM :lol:. Really hope AM gets back and dumps the italians out in the semi of their Prada and sends them home. No fucking loss...

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8 minutes ago, eric e said:

i was at the dock during the lift out

it wasn't cut then as it was covered in fothering jib and flotation patches

so if was cut it, it was cut out on the water before the jib and patch were applied 

It was done just before you got there.

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6 minutes ago, sledracr said:

This makes even less sense.  Get it all the way back to the dock, and then cut a bigger hole in it before assessing damage or forming a plan for fixing it?

I was speculating. It is in the gist of my statement.  It took them hours to get back. Plenty of time to cut holes in things.

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1 hour ago, Marty6 said:

Could have to do with the allotted time slot for the broadcast. Don't forget that there was that aborted race to start the day and they might have come up to the end of their time slot.

This. The Italian TV commentator asked the (Italian) COR guy, who said they had contracted for 2 hrs transmission and it would be impossible/very expensive to extend it

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1 hour ago, 17mika said:

Yes.

They lost completely the racing software and some info used for trimming (I assume ride height, etc). Start was done just using the timer

Additional info where? Thanks

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18 minutes ago, sledracr said:

This makes even less sense.  Get it all the way back to the dock, and then cut a bigger hole in it before assessing damage or forming a plan for fixing it?

They've wrapped the bow in a long yellow inflatable blanket to add plenty of buoyancy for the tow back to the dock. 

Can't wait to find out one day what exactly happened :D

I'm betting on something internal dislodging, because of:

- high deceleration when footplanting and slam happened 

- carbon fibres visible seconds after hull slammed down 

- no indication of cracking/folding towards the inside 

- opening was probably large - TH commented they noticed right away that they were deeper in water than they'd expect; despite running several pumps, quickly adding floats the whole salvage was kind of touch & go... 

- no sign of severe structural damage close to foil attachment dimple - this hole is not connected to it 

-opening shape could be matching unstiffened part of hull skin (transverse rings and longitudinal stringers defined what panel popped off) 

- hull panel was fished out of the water

 

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16 minutes ago, Indio said:

They'll be protesting any outside help for AM :lol:. Really hope AM gets back and dumps the italians out in the semi of their Prada and sends them home. No fucking loss...

That makes it TWO outstandingly stupid comments in a row. Welcome to ignore

 

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4 minutes ago, Xlot said:

This. The Italian TV commentator asked the (Italian) COR guy, who said they had contracted for 2 hrs transmission and it would be impossible/very expensive to extend it

So what would have happened if the second race had started towards the end of the window? I thought there was a 6pm cut-off time for the start of the second race with TVNZ flipping to DUKE if it ran over. 

I'm still really confused how there was no way that there was either an existing official feed on YouTube or TVNZ (who had a reporter on the water giving updates during the news hour) could not have just simply continued, even if it was on something on pokey as Facebook Live. 

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1 hour ago, crashtack said:

Flying Americans aside, has there been any word as to what happened with LR in the last race and being late to the line/going past boundary? Software failure?

recalculating.. 

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30 minutes ago, dullers said:

It was done just before you got there.

just before i got there they were still 5km away under slow tow

you don't seem to understand they covered the area before they started towing, and only uncovered after they had started lifting the boat

if there was cutting done it was between the capsize and the tow 

lift.JPG

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1 hour ago, NorthofSouth said:

 

The online streams on YT cutting off early is inexcusable though; as is the lack of post-race given it was the end of a round of the Prada Cup, not just a day's sailing. 

At the point of capsize whoever was managing the stream was probably aware of the fact that they could be broadcasting several sailors drowning in real time to hundreds of thousands. 

I can’t be the only person who was thinking of ‘Bart’ Simpson when AM went over. 

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2 minutes ago, eric e said:

just before i got there they were still 5km away under slow tow

you don't seem to understand they covered the area before they started towing, and only uncovered it just before they lifted the boat

if there was cutting done it was between the capsize and the tow 

I know. It is covered in my statement.

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Well it seems the press are going with “sudden squall” as the cause rather than dangerous manoeuvre and backstay  left on. 

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5 minutes ago, Snowden said:

At the point of capsize whoever was managing the stream was probably aware of the fact that they could be broadcasting several sailors drowning in real time to hundreds of thousands. 

I can’t be the only person who was thinking of ‘Bart’ Simpson when AM went over. 

All the crew was already accounted for before the stream ended.

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44 minutes ago, Xlot said:

An outstandingly stupid comment - no mean feat, in your collection

LR have on site Stefano Beltrando, the boss of QI Composites and the recognized top guy for damage assesment. I’m sure he’ll be made available

Why it’s not really in any of the two remaining contenders or the defenders interests to make Amway happy and strong.

 

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Good point.  Perhaps the hole was enlarged (if was enlarged) to remove something. 

WATER Drainage Hole as Air Bags increased Positive Floatation

you Donut want to lift a swamped hull above the water

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1 hour ago, NorthofSouth said:

So what would have happened if the second race had started towards the end of the window? I thought there was a 6pm cut-off time for the start of the second race with TVNZ flipping to DUKE if it ran over. 

I'm still really confused how there was no way that there was either an existing official feed on YouTube or TVNZ (who had a reporter on the water giving updates during the news hour) could not have just simply continued, even if it was on something on pokey as Facebook Live. 

RRs stated no races to start after 18:30hrs.

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1 hour ago, Redreuben said:

Well it seems the press are going with “sudden squall” as the cause rather than dangerous manoeuvre and backstay  left on. 

well from my position standing on the top deck of a boat above the top mark I can 100% say that as AM approached the top mark the flags on the boats around us went apeshit and almost 90degrees out ... I even said to someone on the boat "this is going to be interesting as it will hit them as they come around" (I may need to change my name on here to 'the oracle')

The left gate was the favoured mark for getting to the finish line faster ... if AM went right and LR went left there was a decent chance there would have been a pass

I'm not a DB fan but this is completely a 'shit happens' event. listen to the video "turning in 3 , 2 ,1 turning down now ... *squall hits - rudder lets go*"

listen carefully from 2:44 onwards ... dean is agreeing with someone  "we need to get back into the breese on the left side of the course" - to which DB says "copy that"

 

it wasn't the mark rounding that was the issue

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1 hour ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

They've wrapped the bow in a long yellow inflatable blanket to add plenty of buoyancy for the tow back to the dock. 

Can't wait to find out one day what exactly happened :D

I'm betting on something internal dislodging, because of:

- high deceleration when footplanting and slam happened 

- carbon fibres visible seconds after hull slammed down 

- no indication of cracking/folding towards the inside 

- opening was probably large - TH commented they noticed right away that they were deeper in water than they'd expect; despite running several pumps, quickly adding floats the whole salvage was kind of touch & go... 

- no sign of severe structural damage close to foil attachment dimple - this hole is not connected to it 

-opening shape could be matching unstiffened part of hull skin (transverse rings and longitudinal stringers defined what panel popped off) 

- hull panel was fished out of the water

 

Another possibility:

The accumulator high-pressure connector was knocked off upon hull contact with water, and anyone who's witnessed a pressurised dive tank topple over and get the connecting valve knocked off won't forget it in a hurry!

The accumulators are pressurised to 450bar compared to 220-230bar for dive tanks. That accumulator would be quite a lethal missile!!

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Lickindip; thanks for your comment, I hear you.
It would appear the backstay thing is bullshit to as on these boats it doesn’t have the capacity to be let out much due to them almost always being on the wind. 
My only other armchair comment is the tactician grinding, if his eyes were out of the boat as they should have been it may have been avoidable. 
What’s done is done, I sincerely hope they recover in time to be beaten by Ineos. Evil Grin. 

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

BTW, LR also tacked and beared away in pretty much the same wind, but they were OK.

True but (not bring in race-mode) they took a gentler, more careful line. 

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

BTW, LR also tacked and beared away in pretty much the same wind, but they were OK.

true but at that stage they had seen AM go over so were no longer in race mode, went way past the mark with comments like 'no rush no rush'

image.thumb.png.d1e755f29a744bec1427b2c6f1a11692.png

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TC - They were way different in their roundings. AM went in hot and it was a whiparound and then skywards launch. LR sat the boat down and either got organised or worked out whether they were going to stop per SIs or keep going and then relaunched. Plus even in the minute later the line squall had settled. AM tacked right in the front edge of the squall. That said, the approaching rain line was really obvious,

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8 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

True but (not bring in race-mode) they took a gentler, more careful line. 

Yes, strange that they did not chose the bear away though, they had the choice and no pressure.

I don't know whether the tack not perfect thus the chain of event or if it was ok but they just missed the bear away. Dean announced  the bear away 3 times. So, the runners ? I doubt it. It is clear that the rudder lost tractions and caused the rest, but why did it lose grip ?

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yes, strange that they did not chose the bear away though, they had the choice and no pressure.

I don't know whether the tack not perfect thus the chain of event or if it was ok but they just missed the bear away. Dean announced  the bear away 3 times. So, the backstays ? I doubt it. It is clear that the rudder lost tractions and caused the rest, but why did it lose grip ?

it was doing 45knts, the wheel was turned while being fully loaded at the same time a hell of a lot of HP was being put into the sails ... i think its referred to as being 'pushed over the edge'

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Some are suggesting square batteries caused square hole, i say to you this is not a cartoon. Even if such object would land flat on hull wall it would have least penetration force due to large area + that it is opossed by pressure from outside. What many are forgeting is that those boats have bulkheads, and bulkheads are perpendicular to each other. So if cracks appeared on joint of skin to bulkhead due to strong impact pressure they would crack. If one of those cracks opened and caught fast rushing water (boat was still moving fast) it would open like a tin can. It might be possible though that flying objects from inside did help with puncture, but not making square hole, top of the hole is less clean edge separation. Anyway we might soon get official version or at least more pictures.

dbd90c95fb44310c70fe45ad2d027fa8.jpg

1240327-03.thumb.jpeg.8c0819f2c70533db8261555b417682bd.jpg

1240327-03.thumb.jpeg.8c0819f2c70533db8261555b417682bdb.jpg

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