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On 1/19/2021 at 6:19 PM, Stingray~ said:

Some answers in just now 

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I am not sure if there is racing today or not now. There is a presser vid on youtube that I have not watched. The schedule in the statement above indicates that the racing starts tomorrow. The website has both today and tomorrow inconsistently in different places.

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Having a race like that is why the committee was correct in postponing the race so many times. I think that the race was worth the wait.  Cheers to the Race Committee!

Semi Final Race 1 book is open - hit like for an AM win, dislike for LRPP.  Don’t sit on the fence now!

Funny when I click on the cup site I get this:

Posted Images

6 minutes ago, nroose said:

I am not sure if there is racing today or not now. There is a presser vid on youtube that I have not watched. The schedule in the statement above indicates that the racing starts tomorrow. The website has both today and tomorrow inconsistently in different places.

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Likely just a case of poor QC by site management.

Given NZ is UTC+13 at the moment, its 23 Jan will be 22 Jan for many. :-)

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I read on LSD that if a boat capsizes then the race is abandoned. I presume then awarded to the boat that is left sailing upright. Not sure how fair that is as the other team might flip a few minutes later if it is gusty. So is the race awarded to the last boat standing,  irrespective of whether they complete the course?

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2 hours ago, winchfodder said:

I read on LSD that if a boat capsizes then the race is abandoned. I presume then awarded to the boat that is left sailing upright. Not sure how fair that is as the other team might flip a few minutes later if it is gusty. So is the race awarded to the last boat standing,  irrespective of whether they complete the course?

Yes sounds right Checco Bruni immediately told Jimmy they had won by default and throttle back, Jimmy wanted to keep racing. Either can't slow in 22 knots, or didn't believe him! I guess a capsize means all chase boats need to attend to the wounded, and means a lot of hazards and boats on course. Maybe a rematch might be fairer if they get going again. 

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On 1/16/2021 at 4:14 PM, NSP said:

Good race management.  Iain would have killed to have that ability in SF to avoid the farce of a team foiling into the final mark a minute too late.

He had that ability (he kood moov marks, and also deleet legz) but (inekspikably) did not ewz it.

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Just now, winchfodder said:

NZ Tab has opened up a book on the first race this weekend. Frackers still favourites despite Prada's new higher wind foils.

 

As I said before, that is based on bets made by people who are less informed and knowledgeable than most of the people on here.

 

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1 minute ago, enigmatically2 said:

As I said before, that is based on bets made by people who are less informed and knowledgeable than most of the people on here.

 

Like any bookmaker!

Sometimes they do their homework to see if they can get an edge, mostly it is just laying off against where the money is being put down. 

Many moons ago I worked with WilliamHill on helping them put their AC book together. 

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2 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Like any bookmaker!

Sometimes they do their homework to see if they can get an edge, mostly it is just laying off against where the money is being put down. 

Many moons ago I worked with WilliamHill on helping them put their AC book together. 

Exactly. I only made the point because there is a surprisingly common belief that bookmakers set the odds based on knowledge.

It always amazes me how much the odds for an international competition are biased towards the country in which the betting is taking place because you tend to be restricted to betting in your own country. There must be potential for an international 'cartel' to make money by betting on the foreigners in each country (perhaps not the AC though because I'm not sure any other countries have odds set up)

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34 minutes ago, tillerman said:

a's Cup.

Or, to be more precise, we are going to have some one boat starts.
 

What potential is there for the teams racing to screw up that win?

Capsize before the start presumably would result in a draw

What if they capsize just after the start but before the race is terminated?

What about if they enter the box or cross the line early? How do they judge the penalty?!

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2 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

What potential is there for the teams racing to screw up that win?

Capsize before the start presumably would result in a draw

What if they capsize just after the start but before the race is terminated?

What about if they enter the box or cross the line early? How do they judge the penalty?!

How about they both capsize on the same squall. Who wins? The last mast to hit the water?

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1 minute ago, winchfodder said:

How about they both capsize on the same squall. Who wins? The last mast to hit the water?

I was talking about these single boat races specifically, but good question. Draw I guess

But in the single boat races...?

 

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2 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

There must be potential for an international 'cartel' to make money by betting on the foreigners in each country

This is known as arbitrage; in principle you could write a tool to scan different online betting sites and automatically place pairs of bets (or sets where there's more than one competitor) that guarantee a profit, whatever the outcome. In practice, your tool would have to be very fast indeed, and you'd need a lot of capital to make it worthwhile, because other people have already got there. The effect of the arbitrage is to bring the odds at different bookmakers into convergence (because the arbitrage bets themselves shift the bookmakers' odds, just like any other bets), so any remaining margins are very small. Isolated arbitrage opportunities probably still exist, but beware of FX risks or liquidity issues (finding yourself unable to place both sides of a bet and being stuck with a significant position).

Exactly the same principles apply in financial markets, which is where the term arbitrage comes from. 

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5 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I was talking about these single boat races specifically, but good question. Draw I guess

But in the single boat races...?

 

Ah. I see. Indeed how do you loose a ghost race? If you couldn't loose then there would be no point in even running the race .

If you don't cross the start do you forfeit the race or just count it as a draw?

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21 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Ah. I see. Indeed how do you loose a ghost race? If you couldn't loose then there would be no point in even running the race .

If you don't cross the start do you forfeit the race or just count it as a draw?

hence me wondering in what ways it is possible to screw it up

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38 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Ah. I see. Indeed how do you loose a ghost race? If you couldn't loose then there would be no point in even running the race .

If you don't cross the start do you forfeit the race or just count it as a draw?

I guess that if you don't cross the start in a race against a boat in the shed with a big hole in the side of its hull, then you both score zero points for that race.

Would that be right?

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2 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I guess that if you don't cross the start in a race against a boat in the shed with a big hole in the side of its hull, then you both score zero points for that race.

Would that be right?

Yeah. What if the race between Ineos and LR ended up with one of them capsizing and nearly sinking. Without the ghost race, you'd have the bizarre scenario of a boat with a big hole in the side that can't race being awarded a victory over another boat with a big hole in the side that can't race.

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2 minutes ago, Dave S said:

Yeah. What if the race between Ineos and LR ended up with one of them capsizing and nearly sinking. Without the ghost race, you'd have the bizarre scenario of a boat with a big hole in the side that can't race being awarded a victory over another boat with a big hole in the side that can't race.

Yea, have Ineos or LR tested capsizing, like the Kiwis? Checked that nothing comes lose internally, like a battery?

 

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13 minutes ago, LordBooster said:

Yea, have Ineos or LR tested capsizing, like the Kiwis? Checked that nothing comes lose internally, like a battery?

 

But the Kiwis haven't tested a 30 foot leap in the air and crash down on its side. I think they should. But for safety of the crew maybe they can just drop it off the crane into the water. But please ensure they film it

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11 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

But the Kiwis haven't tested a 30 foot leap in the air and crash down on its side. I think they should. But for safety of the crew maybe they can just drop it off the crane into the water. But please ensure they film it

Yes, can be difficult to simulate that leap in the air. They must have simulation codes for this, like Finite Element calculation, for instance ABAQUS, ANSYS, NASTRAN, LS-Dyna etc.

 

 

Edited by LordBooster
missed one important simulation code
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40 minutes ago, LordBooster said:

Yea, have Ineos or LR tested capsizing, like the Kiwis?

The two teams with the slowest boats haven't capsized yet. Perhaps they're not testing the limits like the other two?

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4 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

The two teams with the slowest boats haven't capsized yet. Perhaps they're not testing the limits like the other two?

By slowest teams, you mean UK and LR? The only teams to have actually won proper races yet?

Are you using the same  definition that someone had that Oracle was the fastest boat in Bermuda?

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8 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Are you using the same  definition that someone had that Oracle was the fastest boat in Bermuda?

Oracle was the third fastest in Bermuda, so your point is moot.

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31 minutes ago, LordBooster said:

Yes, can be difficult to simulate that leap in the air. They must have simulation codes for this, like Finite Element calculation, for instance ABAQUS, ANSYS, NASTRAN, LS-Dyna etc.

And in plain old English, that means what?

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Just now, Horn Rock said:

Yet neither have beaten ETNZ in a "proper" race.

True, but I am not the one asserting they are faster. You are asserting that they are slower than NZ and AM. No evidence for NZ either way, but even before she capsized AM was beaten 3 times. So your evidence for slower is as ridiculous as claiming Oracle was fastest in Bermuda 

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2 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

So your evidence for slower is as ridiculous as claiming Oracle was fastest in Bermuda 

Beating AM with course bias and a drift contest is not conclusive of a faster boat.

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1 minute ago, Horn Rock said:

Swerve around Ineos without falling over? That's a test ETNZ is up for.

The material properties are important as usual. Much of the experience is based on steel. For instance, compare the early problems with carbon fiber rudder-shafts. One cannot simply put a bolt through the shaft, like on steel. One must build up laminate around any bolt. For Justine III it was evident and they were happy to get a new one in time (cannot find any info, just from memory): https://www.tonycastroyachts.com/Heritage  

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4 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Beating AM with course bias and a drift contest is not conclusive of a faster boat.

You ARE using the same definition as (I can't remember who but the Kiwis ridiculed him) someone used for Bermuda.

This isn't a speed record attempt. The points go to the fastest boat around a course. Which has been UK 4 times and LR twice. 

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1 minute ago, JALhazmat said:

and failed..

That wasn't a "proper" race. In the two races completed against Ineos we cleaned them out comprehensively. In the third abandoned race we were a lap ahead. But yeah, Ineos is clearly the faster boat around the course.

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5 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

That wasn't a "proper" race. In the two races completed against Ineos we cleaned them out comprehensively. In the third abandoned race we were a lap ahead. But yeah, Ineos is clearly the faster boat around the course.

Do keep up Horn Rock ffs

Are AM faster than UK around a course?

(Please note that the question is not whether they were faster last year, but are they now)

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1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

But the Kiwis haven't tested a 30 foot leap in the air and crash down on its side. I think they should. But for safety of the crew maybe they can just drop it off the crane into the water. But please ensure they film it

Back in 1963 they did this

Lloyds - copie.jpg

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57 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

That wasn't a "proper" race. In the two races completed against Ineos we cleaned them out comprehensively. In the third abandoned race we were a lap ahead. But yeah, Ineos is clearly the faster boat around the course.

as it wasn't a proper race I guess it wasn't a proper fall over then? the races that etnz did beat INEOS was that one of those proper races that carried loads of points and meant something?

of the boats currently racing based on results and points scored to progress to the final which boat is or has been faster around the course than INEOS?

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3 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Exactly. I only made the point because there is a surprisingly common belief that bookmakers set the odds based on knowledge.

It always amazes me how much the odds for an international competition are biased towards the country in which the betting is taking place because you tend to be restricted to betting in your own country. There must be potential for an international 'cartel' to make money by betting on the foreigners in each country (perhaps not the AC though because I'm not sure any other countries have odds set up)

I watched a program about odds makers where the claim was made that casino odds makers have only one objective and that is to have equal amounts of money on both possibilities. I am not sure how they make money that way but this was clearly the statement of the person from the casino. 

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3 minutes ago, danstanford said:

I watched a program about odds makers where the claim was made that casino odds makers have only one objective and that is to have equal amounts of money on both possibilities. I am not sure how they make money that way but this was clearly the statement of the person from the casino. 

Its not equal amounts, but they can and do arrange the odds so they make a profit whatever. Its quite simple. Just all the odds don't add up to 1 (or 100% depending upon the way you quote odds

 

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

So while the other teams will be improving - Ineos have to match that, plus bridge the gap. I don't see it happening. The most likely outcome is they end the summer without a race win, or they get a win or two, and someone embarrassingly says that's a positive, and something to build on for the future, just before Jim pulls the plug.

4> 2 

Mathslam

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Brendon Dobroth is good in, among other things, keels. It is not common that a yacht designer reveals the methods for strength calculation. However, he was involved in this failure investigation. Something similar can be performed for the stuff that risk to come loose. This is a minimum that must be analyzed:

https://assets.system.tamus.edu/files/communications/cynthiawoods/Cynthia-Woods-Report-SIAD-OGC-FINAL.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0YjWGbyVV5NPbbE2sUK7jC0qhK9IJ8sGdZQDDJL89ni2oh5xIiZkwAEcY

 

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3 hours ago, LordBooster said:

Yes, can be difficult to simulate that leap in the air. They must have simulation codes for this, like Finite Element calculation, for instance ABAQUS, ANSYS, NASTRAN, LS-Dyna etc.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

 

That's a good start. The problem for the present America's cup yachts is to find extreme cases for accelerations of individual parts, not only a ship dropped from a certain distance. But my guess is that they have such good computer codes and CPU (roughly computer power) that it is more a question of focus on strength analysis using FEM (Finite Element Method) rather than fluid analysis using CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics).

 

 

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12 minutes ago, LordBooster said:

That's a good start. The problem for the present America's cup yachts is to find extreme cases for accelerations of individual parts, not only a ship dropped from a certain distance. But my guess is that they have such good computer codes and CPU (roughly computer power) that it is more a question of focus on strength analysis using FEM (Finite Element Method) rather than fluid analysis using CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics).

 

 

CFD gives you your load cases for FEA.

Also, CFD>>FEA in terms of computational resource use

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You don't need finite element codes for any of that stuff, there is work going back to the 60s both analytical and experimental that can tell you instantaneous slam loads for relative impact velocities that can be used for structural design for most shapes you would be interested in. Plywood motor torpedo boats have been shaking themselves loose since WW2. Methods according to Allen and Jones and Heller and Jasper spring to mind.

Either they underestimated the impact velocity scenario they ended up seeing, or didn't consider such high pressures whendetermining their scantling.

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28 minutes ago, LordBooster said:

That's a good start. The problem for the present America's cup yachts is to find extreme cases for accelerations of individual parts, not only a ship dropped from a certain distance. But my guess is that they have such good computer codes and CPU (roughly computer power) that it is more a question of focus on strength analysis using FEM (Finite Element Method) rather than fluid analysis using CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics).

 

 

There is a big norwegian offshore code governing the design sort of thing. Suspect very very thick monolithic structures here.  You'd definately need a trip to the chiropractor after that drop.

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6 minutes ago, Daniel Holman said:

There is a big norwegian offshore code governing the design sort of thing. Suspect very very thick monolithic structures here.  You'd definately need a trip to the chiropractor after that drop.

Yes, and to the dentist as well.

 

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6 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

That wasn't a "proper" race. In the two races completed against Ineos we cleaned them out comprehensively. In the third abandoned race we were a lap ahead. But yeah, Ineos is clearly the faster boat around the course.

Dude, they currently have zero point, 0 , nil. That means that they are not very good or at least not as good as the other 2. I am not sure what alternative reality you live in or what alternative facts you use but outside of your bubble AM isn't doing very well. The one race they where leading they stumbled.

Loosers whine about being fastest, winner go home and win the America's Cup. 

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1 minute ago, sosoomii said:

Round Robin 3, Ineos vs Luna Rosa. Place you bets - like for Ineos, dislike for LR. 

LRPP, by 9 sec.

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The broadcast is on, but they're showing a deconstruction of the capsize. Is there a race today? This is getting fucking old. Might as well be a DOG match for all the racing there is.

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26 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

The broadcast is on, but they're showing a deconstruction of the capsize. Is there a race today? This is getting fucking old. Might as well be a DOG match for all the racing there is.

There is a race scheduled. Looks like it was going to start at 10pm est.  Last I looked they were in a postponement.  Had gotten to about 2 minutes in the starting sequence when they postponed.

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2 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

There is a race scheduled. Looks like it was going to start at 10pm est.  Last I looked they were in a postponement.  Had gotten to about 2 minutes in the starting sequence when the postponed.

Cool, thanks.

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1 hour ago, shanghaisailor said:

VPN to France for free live

Consider using the Opera browser, it's a reputable piece of software, and it does VPN without adware, or paying subscriptions, etc.

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27 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

The broadcast is on, but they're showing a deconstruction of the capsize. Is there a race today? This is getting fucking old. Might as well be a DOG match for all the racing there is.

They had just gone into a sequence when there was a big right hand shift. SOP in match racing is that if boats can one tack the top mark that the race would be blown up - not sure if they use that here but have seen multiple match races abandoned because one team gets to the top of the course without tacking.

Also the schedule changed because the second race is only what they are calling a 'ghost race'. In match racing when one team can't get to the start line the other team generally stil has to start to prove THEY are capable of racing rather than just be GIVEN the point. 

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8 minutes ago, Enzedel92 said:

NBC actually broadcasting for FREE!!!  It’s a miracle.  Screw all the dumb bastards that spent $175 on the gold pass lol

Well lets see if that holds true for the Prada final and the AC itself....

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