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Lots of discussion points from only one race... tried to pick out the more interesting details! For me, despite the huge delta swings on the 2nd and 2rd beats, this was still a race about the 'crunch' moments. 
Best race in in an AC75 yet? For me, yes. 

 

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Having a race like that is why the committee was correct in postponing the race so many times. I think that the race was worth the wait.  Cheers to the Race Committee!

Semi Final Race 1 book is open - hit like for an AM win, dislike for LRPP.  Don’t sit on the fence now!

Funny when I click on the cup site I get this:

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19 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

100% correct. From jim!us boat is looks close, but he knew full well that they were not on a collision course. All the time he is bearing away to reach ben, Ben is slipping across and away from.him. The software showed that, and that is why the.umpires give it to ineos. That god this isn't 30years ago and you could feine shock and emotional distress that you were scared. People are getting far too excited about the speeds of these boats. Lewis Hamilton wouldn,t even be able to follow your reasoning. His life begins at 140mph into a turn at 5g. Everything else is one handed, one eye open. Grow up people.

Hollywood! Just look how quickly the umpires greened it. It was a little like DC on Liberty hunting down A2 on the penultimate leg of Race 7 in 1983, an all or nothing moment

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On the cross, and a few other potential penalties. I've gone back to rewatch a few of the incidents that were green flagged:

  • LR dial down with AM on day 3
  • LR luff with UK on day 4
  • LR Starboard Port with UK on day 4

There is one more upwind luff I remember happening but forget which race.

All these incidents seem to show that the umpires are being very consistent in how they are calling Rule 16. They are forcing the ROW boat to be decisive and give plenty of time to the give-way boat after a course change. I think this is likely something they discussed well before these events and I think it is the safer call in these boats. 

Now, time for some opinion and speculation. In all of these incidents, Jimmy is the helm on LR, I think his "Hollywood" style of match racing gets him into trouble with Rule 16. Bruni spent quite a while on the WMRT in the early 2010s and I think he would be better at positioning the boat to get these calls.

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STOP PRESS-Just read that NZL found 1 case of COVID and decision on lockdown including high end sport to be taken Monday (already today in NZL)

Might be more fake news but concerning if real  :o

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7 hours ago, nav said:

+1

I don't think the officials should be encouraging or tacitly approving getting this close, It seems a close cross turned into what should have been a duck as it developed due to a shift. There was no pulling out at the last second for Ineos without disaster but they should have been penalised IMO.

Saying that I haven't heard anything from the officials that Flags mentions above

I have been continuously surprised at how close the umpires allow things to get without penalties, given the speeds involved and how on the verge of out of control the boats are at nearly all times. There seems to be a fairly large cone of uncertainty in terms of where the driver wants the boat to go vs where it may actually end up.

They have more expertise and presumably the approach to umpiring is something that the teams have had input on, but I have to say it looks a bit reckless to me at times.

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12 minutes ago, sailer99 said:

On the cross, and a few other potential penalties. I've gone back to rewatch a few of the incidents that were green flagged:

  • LR dial down with AM on day 3
  • LR luff with UK on day 4
  • LR Starboard Port with UK on day 4

There is one more upwind luff I remember happening but forget which race.

All these incidents seem to show that the umpires are being very consistent in how they are calling Rule 16. They are forcing the ROW boat to be decisive and give plenty of time to the give-way boat after a course change. I think this is likely something they discussed well before these events and I think it is the safer call in these boats. 

Now, time for some opinion and speculation. In all of these incidents, Jimmy is the helm on LR, I think his "Hollywood" style of match racing gets him into trouble with Rule 16. Bruni spent quite a while on the WMRT in the early 2010s and I think he would be better at positioning the boat to get these calls.

Trouble is if Jimmy keeps on getting the decisions going against him he has no option other than to push it even further with a real danger of some major damage and injury. Shouldn't the umpires act more on the side of safety and make it clear that the right of way boat does have the right of way and should not be pushed into forcing the issue. 

Unless Iain Murray sits down with all the teams and the umpires and makes it clear that he wants no more damage, then there is going to be a nasty incident. These teams are playing for the ultimate goal in yachting and wont be backing down.

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25 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Lots of discussion points from only one race... tried to pick out the more interesting details! For me, despite the huge delta swings on the 2nd and 2rd beats, this was still a race about the 'crunch' moments. 
Best race in in an AC75 yet? For me, yes. 

 

Great discussion!  Your suggestion of the smaller 'steering' wheel being used to adjust the sensitivity of the main wheel makes a lot of sense.

I've thought similar things about the flight controller - most times it needs a high degree of sensitivity, but sometimes that wold need to be far more responsive within a fraction of a second, such as when rounding a mark.

I still question if the flight controller didn't have a role in the AM capsize, following my examination of the available videos, but I suspect I may be alone on that theory! :rolleyes:

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10 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

STOP PRESS-Just read that NZL found 1 case of COVID and decision on lockdown including high end sport to be taken Monday (already today in NZL)

Might be more fake news but concerning if real  :o

Link 

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:


Yes but we can agree the IACC boats were a lot less complicated.  Sell the hull, keel fin, generic bulb and a stripped down rig.  More to an AC 75 than that it appears.  I would think secrets tied to foils and how the rigs work (boom or boom less) would be protected info.  Then there is the FCS.  Would that come with the boat?  AM has shown the importance of having an FCS spare. I can see ETNZ selling whatever to a new challenger if they successfully defend to encourage participation.  I suppose that applies to whoever wins this cycle.

Also, I think EB kept SUI 100.  He sold SUI 91 to the Germans.  
 

WetHog  :ph34r:

My memory isn't great, but I also believe that for the last couple IACC cup cycles you were at least allowed, if not required, to sell the design data along with the yacht. This made the purchase a much better head start because you didn't have to reverse engineer the boat you bought to understand why it was designed the way it was.

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20 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

STOP PRESS-Just read that NZL found 1 case of COVID and decision on lockdown including high end sport to be taken Monday (already today in NZL)

Might be more fake news but concerning if real  :o

I read that too a couple of hours ago.

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3 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Trouble is if Jimmy keeps on getting the decisions going against him he has no option other than to push it even further with a real danger of some major damage and injury. Shouldn't the umpires act more on the side of safety and make it clear that the right of way boat does have the right of way and should not be pushed into forcing the issue. 

Unless Iain Murray sits down with all the teams and the umpires and makes it clear that he wants no more damage, then there is going to be a nasty incident. These teams are playing for the ultimate goal in yachting and wont be backing down.

I'd say the umpires are airing on the side of safety. In all of these incidents, the ROW boat is either constantly changing course or makes a very rapid course change. As the give way boat, it is hard to react to a sudden change in direction or a constant change in direction. For the incidents listed above:

  • Dial down: AM was clear across until LR altered course down. AM started to gybe after LR altered course, LR had to avoid AM during the gybe. Better move for LR: come down earlier to make AM think they won't cross and have them gybe earlier.
  • Luff: Sudden luff from LR, UK responds. Another sudden luff, UK responds. UK decides they don't like the closed gauge and tack away. The problem with the luffs is they are a quick up and then back to close-hauled, not change in heading and holding the new heading.
  • Downwind cross: Almost the same as the dial down. UK clear across until LR starts hunting down, by the time LR start their hunt down, the UK doesn't have the space to gybe. Better: Hunt down early, the UK will see they might not cross and gybe.

Jimmy doesn't give his competitor appropriate time and opportunity, that is why he doesn't get the calls. The umpires want the ROW boat to make decisive course changes and allow the other boat to respond, that is a safer scenario and follows the intention of the RRS.

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51 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

People are getting far too excited about the speeds of these boats. Lewis Hamilton wouldn,t even be able to follow your reasoning. His life begins at 140mph into a turn at 5g. Everything else is one handed, one eye open. Grow up people.

Just I don't follow yours. The ISS travels at 7.66 km/second which is much faster than F1. So what?

The speed of these boats is approaching the physical limits of what is possible for a sailing boat and the control required to operate at these speeds introduces an element of jeopardy that is totally absent from nearly all other sailing, why don't you show some maturity and acknowledge that, rather than being too cool for school and telling everyone to grow up. People thankfully haven't died during this AC cycle, but they have in previous, chasing the limits...

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1 hour ago, Chris UK said:

100% correct. From jim!us boat is looks close, but he knew full well that they were not on a collision course. All the time he is bearing away to reach ben, Ben is slipping across and away from.him. The software showed that, and that is why the.umpires give it to ineos. That god this isn't 30years ago and you could feine shock and emotional distress that you were scared. People are getting far too excited about the speeds of these boats. Lewis Hamilton wouldn,t even be able to follow your reasoning. His life begins at 140mph into a turn at 5g. Everything else is one handed, one eye open. Grow up people.

An F1 car is such a terrible analogy for these boats it's not even worth discussing. The precision with which Lewis Hamilton can place his car is several orders of magnitude greater than an AC75, he has exact control over the power supplied to his car at all times and the fucking track isn't liquid and in motion.

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1 hour ago, Chris UK said:

100% correct. From jim!us boat is looks close, but he knew full well that they were not on a collision course. All the time he is bearing away to reach ben, Ben is slipping across and away from.him. The software showed that, and that is why the.umpires give it to ineos. That god this isn't 30years ago and you could feine shock and emotional distress that you were scared. People are getting far too excited about the speeds of these boats. Lewis Hamilton wouldn,t even be able to follow your reasoning. His life begins at 140mph into a turn at 5g. Everything else is one handed, one eye open. Grow up people.

Understand your point.  But Hamilton can stop from 200mph quicker then an AC75 from 20 knots. Turns, same thing.   Hamilton learned in a shifter cart and his experience has grown from there. The AC drivers have spent a fraction of time in their current boats, and unfortunately all of the automatic responses learned in their youth doesn't relate to an AC75. You simply can't compare someone who learns something in their youth, vs 20's and older (nevermind 40).

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1 hour ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Lots of discussion points from only one race... tried to pick out the more interesting details! For me, despite the huge delta swings on the 2nd and 2rd beats, this was still a race about the 'crunch' moments. 
Best race in in an AC75 yet? For me, yes. 

 

Mozzy, I like your videos, but I'm not convinced by the suggestion for the inner wheel is gearing change for the rudder. Giles keeps his hand on it like he is controlling it throughout the move. That would be strange and disconcerting for helm.

So what would he want to adjust like that at that time and not during normal flight. My best suggestion is cant angle as they bear away and head up. But I'm not confident

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What ever happens with the rest of the Prada Cup, I'm tired of hearing about the AM capsize. Its a capsize, the Kiwi's have done it 3 times now. Its done, its over and the boat, by all accounts will be out of the shed before Friday.

If they lose, I hope they -AM don't use it as an excuse. They've had 2 weeks and all sorts of help from across all the teams and the entire NZ Marine Industry. When they come out of the shed, they better be prepared to push that boat hard, otherwise its game over, and they're going home.

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14 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Mozzy, I like your videos, but I'm not convinced by the suggestion for the inner wheel is gearing change for the rudder. Giles keeps his hand on it like he is controlling it throughout the move. That would be strange and disconcerting for helm.

So what would he want to adjust like that at that time and not during normal flight. My best suggestion is cant angle as they bear away and head up. But I'm not confident

To be honest, that's more Robs idea... I said exactly the same off recording.

Bit... going through the roles, I just don't understand what else it could be. 

Pilot / flight controller has buttons for cant and I'm not sure cant can be changed dynamically like that wheel motion. 

Windward pilot is doing pitch. 

Bleddyon is doing main... 

Also, the movement of Giles inner wheel mimics, but is still different to Ben's... so that's a bit further evidence that it closely related to the amount of rudder ben is using...

The first time in all the footage I've seen it used... and I've watched a lot of stern cam footage!

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35 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Mozzy, I like your videos, but I'm not convinced by the suggestion for the inner wheel is gearing change for the rudder. Giles keeps his hand on it like he is controlling it throughout the move. That would be strange and disconcerting for helm.

So what would he want to adjust like that at that time and not during normal flight. My best suggestion is cant angle as they bear away and head up. But I'm not confident

I was wondering if it was a a facility to give the windward helm rudder control without pulling the main wheel from the Leeward helm, giving dual steering without effecting the other helm position, 

 

in the case of the start Ben had visibility to Prada and was controlling the distance but when it cam to the clock counting down and starting was the priority Giles could take it from his position without Ben needing to cross,  his inputs on the wheel look like direction changes not fine tuning to gearing and the boat is responding to his inputs 

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37 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

What ever happens with the rest of the Prada Cup, I'm tired of hearing about the AM capsize. Its a capsize, the Kiwi's have done it 3 times now. Its done, its over and the boat, by all accounts will be out of the shed before Friday.

If they lose, I hope they -AM don't use it as an excuse. They've had 2 weeks and all sorts of help from across all the teams and the entire NZ Marine Industry. When they come out of the shed, they better be prepared to push that boat hard, otherwise its game over, and they're going home.

Nah AM is already using it - just look at the coverage - NBCSN spent a full hour on it before the last LR/INEOS race.

Its all about the calamity.  

The shocking part is in 5 days AM could be packing their bags.  .

Probably have to go down as the most disappointing American Challenge of all time.

Total collapse.

And Terry Hucthison is in wayyyy too good of a mood for a team thats about to sent home.

 

 

 

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TH can walk back into Quantum and Bella Mente no matter how this turns out, he has Doug and Hap backing him for his previous time served, I believe neither of them would be Sponsors of the AM team without Terry. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Enzedel92 said:

The shocking part is in 5 days AM could be packing their bags.  .

Probably have to go down as the most disappointing American Challenge of all time.

Total collapse.

Be one hell of a story if they knock the Handbags over.

Crikey whilst I am in a doolally frame of mind imagine if Amway go on and deal to the Frackers then slay TNZ Lord Dalton will have some explaining to do.

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1 hour ago, idontwan2know said:

An F1 car is such a terrible analogy for these boats it's not even worth discussing. The precision with which Lewis Hamilton can place his car is several orders of magnitude greater than an AC75, he has exact control over the power supplied to his car at all times and the fucking track isn't liquid and in motion.

The point I made was that some people, not all, are able to judge speed and distance very well, even at extreme speeds i.e. IOM TT etc....these speeds are fast for a boat, not for motorsport.  The two boats were not colliding and that is why the judges ruled as they did. Maybe there is an issue in that these sailors do not hold licenses as per motorsport. Point remains, these speeds can be judged accurately. This is separate from the control of the boat. If they were colliding Jimmy would have readily demonstrated that, established the interception and turned away....but he didn't because he wasnt. Onboard.makes it look close, overhead shows it wasnt.

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2 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

STOP PRESS-Just read that NZL found 1 case of COVID and decision on lockdown including high end sport to be taken Monday (already today in NZL)

Might be more fake news but concerning if real  :o

The govt said yesterday that it was far too early to be talking about any restrictions or changes in alert levels, let alone lockdowns.

It is one case, who recently left quarantine and has been fastidious in using the covid tracer app. 

As an example of what that means, my work colleague got a text telling her that she needs to stay home and get tested because she has been in the same supermarket as this case. Hopefully if it turns out that there is community transmission it can be stamped out quickly.  

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2 hours ago, sailer99 said:

I'd say the umpires are airing on the side of safety. In all of these incidents, the ROW boat is either constantly changing course or makes a very rapid course change. As the give way boat, it is hard to react to a sudden change in direction or a constant change in direction. For the incidents listed above:

  • Dial down: AM was clear across until LR altered course down. AM started to gybe after LR altered course, LR had to avoid AM during the gybe. Better move for LR: come down earlier to make AM think they won't cross and have them gybe earlier.
  • Luff: Sudden luff from LR, UK responds. Another sudden luff, UK responds. UK decides they don't like the closed gauge and tack away. The problem with the luffs is they are a quick up and then back to close-hauled, not change in heading and holding the new heading.
  • Downwind cross: Almost the same as the dial down. UK clear across until LR starts hunting down, by the time LR start their hunt down, the UK doesn't have the space to gybe. Better: Hunt down early, the UK will see they might not cross and gybe.

Jimmy doesn't give his competitor appropriate time and opportunity, that is why he doesn't get the calls. The umpires want the ROW boat to make decisive course changes and allow the other boat to respond, that is a safer scenario and follows the intention of the RRS.

100% correct. Row must.give time and opportumity. Obligated boat must respond immediately, but no requirement to antiicipate. 

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14 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

100% correct. Row must.give time and opportumity. Obligated boat must respond immediately, but no requirement to antiicipate. 

So if a 75ft missile travelling at 45 knots is about to cross your bow with say 10 metres spare (in changing wind pressure and course steered) at which stage are you expected to react to avoid a collision. As row do you just stand on and hope they miss?

I still think the frackers should have been protested. It was dangerous and too close to call.

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Well those of us more likely to be sailing at 4.5 knots might retort than crossing with 1m spare is close but not too close. Even at dogwatch's modest level, I can judge a 1m cross and expect my competitors to be able too. 

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9 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

So if a 75ft missile travelling at 45 knots is about to cross your bow with say 10 metres spare (in changing wind pressure and course steered) at which stage are you expected to react to avoid a collision. As row do you just stand on and hope they miss?

I still think the frackers should have been protested. It was dangerous and too close to call.

They were protested, and the umpires said no foul was committed. If both boats hold their course for ~200m before the cross, UK makes it across, if they aren't going to, LR avoids and UK gets a penalty. The issue was LR was altering course down for that last 200m, they had to avoid because they turned down to aim at UK and gave UK no time to respond after that course change.

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20 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

100% correct. Row must.give time and opportumity. Obligated boat must respond immediately, but no requirement to antiicipate. 

Please don't refer to the rules when you don't understand them. It is easy to confuse people who might think you know what you are talking about.

The rules do not refer to opportunity even when spelled correctly. The word does not appear in Part 2 or Appendix C.

Rule 16 on changing course: "When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear."

Room is defined as "The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way." Also see definition of keep clear.

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Thought LR was unlucky not to draw a penalty on that first leg tbh - unsure how much closer they want the boats in side-by-side proximity. The final leg cross would have been harsh on the Brits had they copped one but hopefully we are not seeing a general reluctance to ping them at all.  

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17 hours ago, Living_in_a_box said:

Well I'm 42, so Gen X, but boring? With 9 passes? WTF?

Not real sailing? Listening to all the discussions coming from the boats would be totally familiar to anyone who's raced a boat before. 

Why are the boundaries such a problem for you? They force the boats to prove they've got the skill to execute their manoeuvres over and over again. In these boats you get a level of jeopardy every manoeuvre. There are still opportunities to work the shifts, still opportunities to tack on your opponent, if you've got the balls to get it done, still tactical calls to make. Would you rather they didn't have boundaries and just watch them sail squares? Or is that your fundamental problem - "it's different to me sailing my 4 knot shitbox" so I don't like it.

These things are raced like high performance dinghies, so out of interest have you ever foiled anything or even done proper apparent wind sailing? Just want you to disprove my hunch that you're not really understanding what the guys are doing when they go race these things so can't relate to what you're seeing.

Convert me! Why should the AC go back to 'real sailing', because the racing I'm seeing is totally engaging, easy to understand, very relatable, very competitive even when gaps open they can close very quickly, and doesn't need me to plan my day around and have a few coffees to watch, and this is coming from someone who doesn't drink coffee and would quite happily watch a live stage of the Tour de France...

Yes, I’ve foiled (not well) as well as spent plenty of time goofing around on my beach cat, so fully understand apparent wind sailing. It’s a shit ton of fun. 
 

I’m not trying to convince you I’m right and you’re wrong. I was merely expressing my opinion that I don’t find this all that exciting to watch. Other than starts and roundings, there hasn’t been much in the way of tactics. They just bounce off the boundaries. Couple that with zero sail changes and it just gets dull. I think the boats are insanely cool, but just not that much fun to watch. I’m not saying I want the old days of 12’s back, but I’d prefer actual boats. 

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5 hours ago, WetHog said:

How much of a benefit will there be from buying a boat 1 from an existing team?   Wouldn’t INEOS, AM and LR want to strip the boats down to protect their “secrets”?   Or keep their FCS as a spare in case of a AM near sinking situation?  And how eager would teams be to pass on their rig set ups to a competitor?  And forget about passing on foils right?  

Then there is the design of the B1’s.  INEOS and AMs first boats would need some serious alterations to make them competitive with B2s of this cycle.  

A lot of questions surrounding the exchange of older boats and if they are worth it for new teams and existing teams.   

WetHog  :ph34r:

But compared to hiring your own design team and starting from scratch, Hoggie, it could be a way quicker and much cheaper introduction to the class, no?

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25 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Please don't refer to the rules when you don't understand them. It is easy to confuse people who might think you know what you are talking about.

The rules do not refer to opportunity even when spelled correctly. The word does not appear in Part 2 or Appendix C.

Rule 16 on changing course: "When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear."

Room is defined as "The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way." Also see definition of keep clear.

Trumps loss still hurting?

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36 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Please don't refer to the rules when you don't understand them. It is easy to confuse people who might think you know what you are talking about.

The rules do not refer to opportunity even when spelled correctly. The word does not appear in Part 2 or Appendix C.

Rule 16 on changing course: "When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear."

Room is defined as "The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way." Also see definition of keep clear.

You're correct, in my initial comments, I should have properly quoted Rule 16 along with the definitions of Room and Keep Clear. Thanks for doing that.

The reason the umpires are green flagging these incidents is likely to do with the actual space it takes to manoeuvre in a seamanlike way in these boats. For anyone wondering how much LR changes course. 17 degrees of course change in 13 seconds.

EDIT: Course change starts at 23:50 not 23:40, photo has a typo.

image.thumb.png.6d57d6bf6196572e1c55b2363b423294.png

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2 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

To be honest, that's more Robs idea... I said exactly the same off recording.

Bit... going through the roles, I just don't understand what else it could be. 

Pilot / flight controller has buttons for cant and I'm not sure cant can be changed dynamically like that wheel motion. 

Windward pilot is doing pitch. 

Bleddyon is doing main... 

Also, the movement of Giles inner wheel mimics, but is still different to Ben's... so that's a bit further evidence that it closely related to the amount of rudder ben is using...

The first time in all the footage I've seen it used... and I've watched a lot of stern cam footage!

How about this. That wheel does nothing except indicate to the helmsman on the other side what way to go. We know the helmsmen can see on one side. I wonder if it is used to direct the helmsman around a mark. It could just go to a light read out telling Ben to bear away or head up round a mark. 2 sets of eyes on both sides of the boat. Further to that it could tell Ben to point up in a shift. So Giles who has visuals on the puffs can indicate to ben to come up a bit or down a bit as the puffs hit.

Edited by dullers
might as well old chap. Had an after thought.
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6 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Just used that google thingy.  I'm actually a Gen-X'er too by 2 years!  I feel so young today!

Cut off dates tend to change depending on where you look but if you get right down to it if one or both of your parents were born during or after WW2 but your Grandparents weren’t you’re Gen X.  

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1 minute ago, dullers said:

How about this. That wheel does nothing except indicate to the helmsman on the other side what way to go. We know the helmsmen can see on one side. I wonder if it is used to direct the helmsman around a mark. It could just go to a light read out telling Ben to bear away or head up round a mark. 2 sets of eyes on both sides of the boat.

Well, wheels on both sides are linked, so ben should be able to see the inner wheel moving from Giles input. But, he wouldn't want to be looking down. 

We see in some maneuvers Giles has his hands loose on the wheel, so he can feel and take over from Ben's input at a split second. Infact, sometimes i find it hard to tell who is really steering. 

But... that leads to my point. If giles really did think ben needed to bear away more, he could turn the actual wheel, to give ben a nudge in the right direction. 

So, it remains a bit of a mystery... 

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1 minute ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Well, wheels on both sides are linked, so ben should be able to see the inner wheel moving from Giles input. But, he wouldn't want to be looking down. 

We see in some maneuvers Giles has his hands loose on the wheel, so he can feel and take over from Ben's input at a split second. Infact, sometimes i find it hard to tell who is really steering. 

But... that leads to my point. If giles really did think ben needed to bear away more, he could turn the actual wheel, to give ben a nudge in the right direction. 

So, it remains a bit of a mystery... 

I am glad you did not think my idea was mad! Maybe it sends an impulse on to Bens wheel through a bit of resistance guiding him to turn up or down so Ben does not have to look down? Ben can override it but still feel it a bit like a game steering wheel?

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5 minutes ago, dullers said:

I am glad you did not think my idea was mad! Maybe it sends an impulse on to Bens wheel through a bit of resistance guiding him to turn up or down so Ben does not have to look down? Ben can override it but still feel it a bit like a game steering wheel?

What if it's another way to control Trav? As far as I can tell, they have the fixed position white throttle style handles and the throttle style handles on the wheel for traveller. But in fast manoeuvers, it may be difficult to use those, so maybe the inner wheel is a coarse, easy to access adjustment? 

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2 minutes ago, sailer99 said:

What if it's another way to control Trav? As far as I can tell, they have the fixed position white throttle style handles and the throttle style handles on the wheel for traveller. But in fast manoeuvers, it may be difficult to use those, so maybe the inner wheel is a coarse, easy to access adjustment? 

We will have to watch the stern cam more to find out.

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13 minutes ago, The Main Man said:

Until I watched the stern cam of the last race, I hadn’t realised how much helming Giles also does. Could just have been that race of course. Impressive interchange between them though.

I thought the same 're Giles steering. Also the wing trimmers input 're wind pressure and direction.

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56 minutes ago, sailer99 said:

What if it's another way to control Trav? As far as I can tell, they have the fixed position white throttle style handles and the throttle style handles on the wheel for traveller. But in fast manoeuvers, it may be difficult to use those, so maybe the inner wheel is a coarse, easy to access adjustment? 

Movement doesn't sync with trav. I do wonder who controls trav when bleddyn is crossing, as it often keeps moving. 

But I don't think the wheel is trav. 

They have rudder rake / pitch on the main wheel twist grip, next to Giles in cockpit side twist and at the pilot position, again twist grip. So, I don't think this is another pitch control. 

Also, there arent many adjustment which a button, pad, or joystick would be better for than a wheel... but, rider movements have to be input with a wheel... so, possibly another indication this related to rudder yaw... 

I dont know. 

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Now watching the virtual eye replays! Only small niggle is sometimes you wish they were zooming in so you can see the precise angles....but still, it's free and I'm very grateful! Certainly worth a watch.

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Ok, so watching the virtual eye footage of the cross the gap at the moment they cross is 30m. The closure date is quick initially, but certainly in the last few second before they cross i.e. Closing from 40m to 30m, it slows to maybe 3m per second. I am just working on the basis on the YouTube virtual footage. Cheers.

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41 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

Now watching the virtual eye replays! Only small niggle is sometimes you wish they were zooming in so you can see the precise angles....but still, it's free and I'm very grateful! Certainly worth a watch.

You can alter the screen zoom. Is that what you mean?

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Not sure I follow. When watching .the.replays of the race using the virtual eye view, I am not aware of the facility to change the virtual eye view i.e. Camera position or zoom etc.....can you? Cheers, c

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6 hours ago, WetHog said:

Yes it was.  And I remember the picture of a happy German team standing next to the mold of their new IACC boat and holding up a sign that said GER 101.  More wasted money. 

Venue is also a factor.  INEOS or LR wins and I’d think the number of challengers would grow significantly.  AM winning is a question because they’ve said they may change boats and if ETNZ defends having to operate at the far edge of the world would be a factor again on new challengers. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

The oil locally is that this is the last Am Cup in NZ even if ETNZ win. Apparently they are sick of the lack of support from the govt, particularly after the shitshow that was the recent enquiry into their spending and will look elsewhere... 

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3 hours ago, sailer99 said:

They were protested, and the umpires said no foul was committed. If both boats hold their course for ~200m before the cross, UK makes it across, if they aren't going to, LR avoids and UK gets a penalty. The issue was LR was altering course down for that last 200m, they had to avoid because they turned down to aim at UK and gave UK no time to respond after that course change.

Seems the same with the quick luffs then immediately bearing away. All Jimmy is doing is giving the other team a free kick. 

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5 minutes ago, Kiwimatt said:

The oil locally is that this is the last Am Cup in NZ even if ETNZ win. Apparently they are sick of the lack of support from the govt, particularly after the shitshow that was the recent enquiry into their spending and will look elsewhere... 

You forget that the RNZYS has a major say in where and when the next cup cycle will be. Where do you think the Cup is held? It's not at the ETNZ Base.

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10 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

Not sure I follow. When watching .the.replays of the race using the virtual eye view, I am not aware of the facility to change the virtual eye view i.e. Camera position or zoom etc.....can you? Cheers, c

To alter POV click and hold down your track pad (or mouse) and move cursor. Zoom as you would any image with two fingers on trackpad.

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2 minutes ago, Kaihoe said:

You forget that the RNZYS has a major say in where and when the next cup cycle will be. Where do you think the Cup is held? It's not at the ETNZ Base.

Sure, but what is RNZYS going to do if ETNZ say "we're off, mates" ? Legally, they are the holder. Practically, they have no cards. They have nothing with which to defend the cup and would be at mercy of the first challenger without ETNZ.

I'm sure GGYC wasn't thrilled about AC35 being held in Bermuda, but at the end of the day there wasn't much of anything they could do about it.

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10 minutes ago, marlowe said:

To alter POV click and hold down your track pad (or mouse) and move cursor. Zoom as you would any image with two fingers on trackpad.

Awesome, thank you, will try tomorrow on pc. C

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On 1/23/2021 at 9:46 AM, idontwan2know said:

At what point do we have an honest conversation about Luna Rossa in the cup?

They've been in 6 cup cycles, made one CSS finals and been in the match once, on their first try. Their last five tries have been expensive, flashy and ultimately disappointing on the water. And it's not been for lack of resources.

I know the Kiwis love them for being on "their side" vs. Larry, but the relationship probably wouldn't be so cordial if anybody thought Prada had a chance of actually beating ETNZ.

All the boats have been sandbagging it a bit. 

I have to say that ETNZ has the best crew imo... but not by much given the distance lost by a mediocre tack/gybe.

Luna caught back up Ineos a few times....

not long until we know. hehe

 

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3 hours ago, NorthofSouth said:

Thought LR was unlucky not to draw a penalty on that first leg tbh - unsure how much closer they want the boats in side-by-side proximity. The final leg cross would have been harsh on the Brits had they copped one but hopefully we are not seeing a general reluctance to ping them at all.  

Yeah, what would the call be if they held and made contact? 

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50 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

Sure, but what is RNZYS going to do if ETNZ say "we're off, mates" ? Legally, they are the holder. Practically, they have no cards. They have nothing with which to defend the cup and would be at mercy of the first challenger without ETNZ.

I'm sure GGYC wasn't thrilled about AC35 being held in Bermuda, but at the end of the day there wasn't much of anything they could do about it.

Completely wrong analogy. The GGYC (ex-Larry) had no say in anything Cup related because he had purchased control of the Club. 

Does ETNA control RHKYS? I very much doubt it.

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6 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Completely wrong analogy. The GGYC (ex-Larry) had no say in anything Cup related because he had purchased control of the Club. 

Does ETNA control RHKYS? I very much doubt it.

Larry had seats on the GGYC board but did not control it from my memory.

Regardless, literal control is not the issue but the fact that the club itself is hopeless and has no chance to host the event or defend the cup without the team. 

If ETNZ want to host the event elsewhere the RNZYS will wail and gnash their teeth and eventually accept it because that's all they can do.

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Just now, SF Woody Sailor said:

Why? 

Because all the money and resources are associated with ETNZ, not RNZYS. They have no leverage.

The club is a legal fig leaf. ETNZ is the defender and the event host for all practical purposes.

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

But compared to hiring your own design team and starting from scratch, Hoggie, it could be a way quicker and much cheaper introduction to the class, no?

Sure it would help get a team off the ground but not sure about way quicker.  I guess it depends on which B1s are available.  ETNZ and LR B1s appear to be the only B1s worth buying at the moment. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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24 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Sure it would help get a team off the ground but not sure about way quicker.  I guess it depends on which B1s are available.  ETNZ and LR B1s appear to be the only B1s worth buying at the moment. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

If they could do open modifications on them you’d think a big skeg/keel might be able to be put on Defiant and Rita 1 and some reworking of the ergonomics. New foils and sail control I bet they’re competitive in some conditions with a good crew. 
 

Just depends how much it all costs if it’s worthwhile to show up knowing you’re only going to win 25% of round robin races and go home. 

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8 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

STOP PRESS-Just read that NZL found 1 case of COVID and decision on lockdown including high end sport to be taken Monday (already today in NZL)

Might be more fake news but concerning if real  :o

Covid is never going away anymore than the flu is. So there maybe no more sport for the next 200 years.

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51 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

Because all the money and resources are associated with ETNZ, not RNZYS. They have no leverage.

The club is a legal fig leaf. ETNZ is the defender and the event host for all practical purposes.

The AC has gone the way of the Olympics.  It is revenue driven with their primary mission pushed to the secondary.  RNZYS could just as easily bring the Cup back to real yacht club challenges.

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1 hour ago, K4W said:

Q) would a foiling kite boarded beat an AC boat around the course? 
:huh:

Not with 11 guys on it and all the camera add ons.

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Just now, sailman said:

The AC has gone the way of the Olympics.  It is revenue driven with their primary mission pushed to the secondary.  RNZYS could just as easily bring the Cup back to real yacht club challenges.

Well yes, they could, but "just as easily" ain't in it. Starting afresh without the ETNZ structure, resources and reputation would be all but impossible. They'd be doomed to lose the cup.

And this may be a moot point...I have seen no real credible suggestion that ETNZ wants to host the cup elsewhere. But if they did, RNZYS will go along quietly.

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4 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

Well yes, they could, but "just as easily" ain't in it. Starting afresh without the ETNZ structure, resources and reputation would be all but impossible. They'd be doomed to lose the cup.

And this may be a moot point...I have seen no real credible suggestion that ETNZ wants to host the cup elsewhere. But if they did, RNZYS will go along quietly.

You are missing my point.  If they wanted to tone down all the money the ETNZ component would be stripped out.  I don’t see it happening because right now they are all focused on the mobilization of the AC brand rather than the spirit of the DoG.

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Just now, sailman said:

You are missing my point.  If they wanted to tone down all the money the ETNZ component would be stripped out.  I don’t see it happening because right now they are all focused on the mobilization of the AC brand rather than the spirit of the DoG.

You cannot strip the money out. You can restrict and funnel what it's spent on, but as long as rich men want to light money on fire in pursuit of the cup, they will find a way.

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1 minute ago, idontwan2know said:

You cannot strip the money out. You can restrict and funnel what it's spent on, but as long as rich men want to light money on fire in pursuit of the cup, they will find a way.

You can strip out ETNZ and all that overhead.  Go to boats that can operate outside of sheltered waters so the on the water organization overhead goes down as well.

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41 minutes ago, Nauti Buoy said:

If they could do open modifications on them you’d think a big skeg/keel might be able to be put on Defiant and Rita 1 and some reworking of the ergonomics. New foils and sail control I bet they’re competitive in some conditions with a good crew. 
 

Just depends how much it all costs if it’s worthwhile to show up knowing you’re only going to win 25% of round robin races and go home. 

Jimmy Spithill got his AC start on a low budget challenge, IIRC.

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19 minutes ago, sailman said:

You can strip out ETNZ and all that overhead.  Go to boats that can operate outside of sheltered waters so the on the water organization overhead goes down as well.

It’s not an offshore race

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13 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Jimmy Spithill got his AC start on a low budget challenge, IIRC.

True but look where he has ended up helming the starboard half of a mono:P.

Wonder how the Italian supporters are feeling about the national language on their contender being English, my trav my rudder my wheel big trim....

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7 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

To be honest, that's more Robs idea... I said exactly the same off recording.

Bit... going through the roles, I just don't understand what else it could be. 

Pilot / flight controller has buttons for cant and I'm not sure cant can be changed dynamically like that wheel motion. 

Windward pilot is doing pitch. 

Bleddyon is doing main... 

Also, the movement of Giles inner wheel mimics, but is still different to Ben's... so that's a bit further evidence that it closely related to the amount of rudder ben is using...

The first time in all the footage I've seen it used... and I've watched a lot of stern cam footage!

Any chance the inner wheel controls rudder lift / downforce or traveler as overrides?  Either could be useful by Giles to keep the boat level when in extreme up or down movements like pre-start scenarios.  For example, Ben bear’s away in an extreme way to go for a hook and Giles reduces rudder lift in the extreme to keep the boat level as less rudder lift is needed as the apparent moves back.  I could see the same kind of argument for traveler intervention during big movements to keep the boat level.  A few controls seem like they could be useful to have a on dial like that.

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2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Jimmy Spithill got his AC start on a low budget challenge, IIRC.

Its viable and I hope we see it. But if a new campaign is $100M (likely more) and buying a used boat and upgrading is $50M or half I just don’t see many DIY teams getting that together. If it can get down to $25M could see a small team win a few races and get a good return, what’s a full Vendée lead up cost? Might be a good ballpark to have a team be able to make the start line off that budget even if not competitive. 

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4 hours ago, K4W said:

Q) would a foiling kite boarded beat an AC boat around the course? 
:huh:

A 75 foot kite board, with 1000sqm kite? 

Nonnfoiling kiteboard got smoked by the cats in a fun drag race in SF

 

 

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11 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

To be honest, that's more Robs idea... I said exactly the same off recording.

Bit... going through the roles, I just don't understand what else it could be. 

Pilot / flight controller has buttons for cant and I'm not sure cant can be changed dynamically like that wheel motion. 

Windward pilot is doing pitch. 

Bleddyon is doing main... 

Also, the movement of Giles inner wheel mimics, but is still different to Ben's... so that's a bit further evidence that it closely related to the amount of rudder ben is using...

The first time in all the footage I've seen it used... and I've watched a lot of stern cam footage!

Could there be a two element rudder, like a fine trim tab?

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

It should never be an offshore race.

I think @sailman's point is that prior editions, before 2013, have been on open water outside the harbor. Also recall that the DoG (yes, I know this clause can be waived by MC) specifically stipulates "all such races shall be on ocean courses, free from headlands."

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10 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Be one hell of a story if they knock the Handbags over.

Crikey whilst I am in a doolally frame of mind imagine if Amway go on and deal to the Frackers then slay TNZ Lord Dalton will have some explaining to do.

If that all happens, AM reserve to drink the blood of their enemies from the Cup...

I'm as biased towards ETNZ as they get, and it wouldn't bother me in this particular scenario. As long as we don't do a big blue bucket effort...

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5 minutes ago, Nutta said:

If that all happens, AM reserve to drink the blood of their enemies from the Cup...

 

If all that happens AM been doing some dark magic already. Devil involved.

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4 hours ago, Forourselves said:

It should never be an offshore race.

Why not?

Sailing around the Isle of Wight wasn't exactly an inshore race, was it? Or races such as the 1987 AC, sailed off Perth where they actually had... waves.

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14 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

The first time in all the footage I've seen it used... and I've watched a lot of stern cam footage!

It isn't the Cunningham

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