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1 hour ago, nav said:

Bruni made a bad call on the lay at the top mark when LR was behind (JS called ineos on lay but Bruni said no - then LR overstood) wondered if they blew their best chance to recover the race there. Interesting what a little pressure does.

 

1 hour ago, strider470 said:

Difficult to make always all the calls better than your opponent, at this level,. I don't think it was pressure related. This lost race put in perspective how amazingly well they sailed in the other five races.

 

29 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

I thought they were running software for that kind of thing.

 

Have a listen where this starts. Giles is clearly using software and is therefor very precise in the info he gives - this seemingly less so (doesn't mean 'aided' info is always better of course)

 

 

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Having a race like that is why the committee was correct in postponing the race so many times. I think that the race was worth the wait.  Cheers to the Race Committee!

Semi Final Race 1 book is open - hit like for an AM win, dislike for LRPP.  Don’t sit on the fence now!

Please just stick to the facts and not your opinion.  You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how this all works.  The flu is down because of all the hand washing, social distancing, mask wearing,

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16 hours ago, dogwatch said:

By the last week in March, UK was in the most complete lockdown of this pandemic

I agree that this is no place to discuss the pandemic, but this is just not true. The UK has never locked down completely. The borders are still not closed. Johnson and his retarded mates are totally culpable for the deaths of 100,000 people and should be locked up.

Great racing today, and nice to see Ineos get one back, possibly with a slight boatspeed disadvantage, though they showed good height off the line in that second race.

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Just now, dogwatch said:

Sigh. I didn't say it did. Reading comprehension?

It’s always good when somebody from another country tells you how things are in the country you live in

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6 hours ago, arr4ws said:

While we wait , lets see a real match racing start

 

Thank you so much, this was incredible. Maneuvers one can actually follow, crew work one can actually see, boat movements that are actually in sync with what's happening on the boat. Plus superb boat-on-boat action. 

O.k., back to watching today's races. 

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3 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Thank you so much, this was incredible. Maneuvers one can actually follow, crew work one can actually see, boat movements that are actually in sync with what's happening on the boat. Plus superb boat-on-boat action. 

O.k., back to watching today's races. 

That's a very good point, and at the same time, those boats we used to love look so painfully slow right now.

I have the impression that there would be an impossible trade-off between the ability to follow what's happening on the boat, the quality of the manoeuvres, the cohesion of the team in an environment that can talk to any sailor on the one hand, and the speed, the show and the wow effect on the other.
As much as I would love to see more than a third of the crew doing something other than injecting energy into the system, I find the AC in 2021 infinitely more spectacular... Thoughts ?

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8 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Thank you so much, this was incredible. Maneuvers one can actually follow, crew work one can actually see, boat movements that are actually in sync with what's happening on the boat. Plus superb boat-on-boat action. 

O.k., back to watching today's races. 

Have to agree.   Fantastic as these new "machines" are, I miss some of the tactical duels etc of the yachts of past. Sometimes, there were even... waves!!!  :)

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16 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

It’s always good when somebody from another country tells you how things are in the country you live in

Are you a cunty fanboi? I had to skip a few pages so cut to the chase please.

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26 minutes ago, kiwin said:

I agree that this is no place to discuss the pandemic, but this is just not true. The UK has never locked down completely. The borders are still not closed. Johnson and his retarded mates are totally culpable for the deaths of 100,000 people and should be locked up.

Great racing today, and nice to see Ineos get one back, possibly with a slight boatspeed disadvantage, though they showed good height off the line in that second race.

You dont have a clue kiwin. Your usual childish rant about covid. So dont discuss it. Plenty of snowflake places to post this.

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19 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

t’s always good when somebody from another country tells you how things are in the country you live in

I am in the UK.....

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5 minutes ago, Shad34 said:

That's a very good point, and at the same time, those boats we used to love look so painfully slow right now.

I have the impression that there would be an impossible trade-off between the ability to follow what's happening on the boat, the quality of the manoeuvres, the cohesion of the team in an environment that can talk to any sailor on the one hand, and the speed, the show and the wow effect on the other.
As much as I would love to see more than a third of the crew doing something other than injecting energy into the system, I find the AC in 2021 infinitely more spectacular... Thoughts ?

I would prefer the old ones, but of course others have other tastes. Unfortunately, there are no big monos match racing anymore, since the RC44 are fleet racing only. 

Anyway, the AC is what Defender and Challenger decide, and it's so much more than racing anyway, so there's always something to enjoy. 

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1 hour ago, Alhadder said:

TA is back. Welcome back mate.

Thank you. Been a while between drinks and I am not sure this will be a long stay. I have always enjoyed the discussions in AC Anarchy though.

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10 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Have to agree.   Fantastic as these new "machines" are, I miss some of the tactical duels etc of the yachts of past. Sometimes, there were even... waves!!!  :)

And remember spinnakers,   oh how I miss downwind legs with spinnakers blowing out or draining the wind from the boat in front....boats that create wind by going faster than wind is hard to comprehend how do you design a sail for that scenario?

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Two points:

1. How is “two wrongs make a right” a rule?  If they were both over why don’t they both have to go back? That was like beer can racing. It is too simplistic to say that two rule infringement cancel each other out, the advantage gained is not necessarily equal.  

2. Kiwis have much to learn about lockdowns and social distancing judging by the number of spectator boats and shoreside crowds with no distancing. 

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4 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Have to agree.   Fantastic as these new "machines" are, I miss some of the tactical duels etc of the yachts of past. Sometimes, there were even... waves!!!  :)

What are waves? :D

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13 minutes ago, barfy said:

Are you a cunty fanboi? I had to skip a few pages so cut to the chase please.

Apparently according to clean anyway, 

It’s twice he said I’ve been banned from other forums but when asked which ones he gets all shy and shrinks back probably because he’s a lying piece of shit 

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11 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Two points:

1. How is “two wrongs make a right” a rule?  If they were both over why don’t they both have to go back? That was like beer can racing. It is too simplistic to say that two rule infringement cancel each other out, the advantage gained is not necessarily equal.  

 

IKR, it has been a fundamental aspect of match racing since umpiring began. You really would think they would they would have gotten their shit together before now....

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35 minutes ago, strider470 said:

What are waves? :D

I've heard they have a few of those things somewhere in a place called Navarre... other side of the world. Supposedly as large as 100'...

image.png.ee442d40983d091f21985fdca76ee71d.png

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51 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Have to agree.   Fantastic as these new "machines" are, I miss some of the tactical duels etc of the yachts of past. Sometimes, there were even... waves!!!  :)

I think the narrow stadium style race tracks and short races has a lot to do with it. 

Next time I'd like to see a mix of races both short track stadium style racing, but also some longer wider ones, plus also even some short offshores - eg around a big island.   The Volvo 65 were able to race both in the southern ocean and in in-port stadiums style races, so why not AC?      

Longer races could even see sail changes!  Of course the boats would have to be built a little tougher.

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

I've heard they have a few of those things somewhere in a place called Navarre... other side of the world. Supposedly as large as 100'...

 

That's Nazaré

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Speccy as they are I don’t think they would cope in the 25-30k Fremantle Doctor. 
But I’d like to see a next generation that can. 

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4 minutes ago, sfigone said:

I think the narrow stadium style race tracks and short races has a lot to do with it. 

Next time I'd like to see a mix of races both short track stadium style racing, but also some longer wider ones, plus also even some short offshores - eg around a big island.   The Volvo 65 were able to race both in the southern ocean and in in-port stadiums style races, so why not AC?      

Longer races could even see sail changes!  Of course the boats would have to be built a little tougher.

Totally agree.

When I previously mentioned the original race was "offshore", I was sharply corrected that it was not "defined" as offshore. To me that's almost like saying the Sydney-Hobart or Fastnet races are not true offshore races because they could be in sight of land more than 50% of the time.

I watched - and re-watched - all the footage of the last Volvo Ocean Race, from drifting at a couple of knots at Hong Kong, to screaming around at Cape Town. Great stuff. Had me constantly checking their progress via the maps.

The Vendee Globe was a major disappointment to me. I had been looking forward to seeing at least some footage of these yachts, but we got only a map and skipper interviews.

I too would like to see races a longer than ~30 minutes, and with a few more challenges. Restricting races to sea states no more than in a mill pond, and with a very narrow wind range, is not enhancing the AC.

IMO.

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51 minutes ago, sfigone said:

also some longer wider ones

Maybe something like:

All such races shall be on ocean courses, free from headlands, as follows: The first race, twenty nautical miles to windward and return; the second race an equilateral triangular race of thirty-nine nautical miles, the first side of which shall be a beat to windward; the third race (if necessary) twenty nautical miles to windward and return

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Two points:

1. How is “two wrongs make a right” a rule?  If they were both over why don’t they both have to go back? That was like beer can racing. It is too simplistic to say that two rule infringement cancel each other out, the advantage gained is not necessarily equal.  

2. Kiwis have much to learn about lockdowns and social distancing judging by the number of spectator boats and shoreside crowds with no distancing. 

1. The penalty for OCS in the Prada Cup is that the penalized boat has to drop 50 meters behind the other boat.  So when both boats are OCS , since they cannot be simultaneously behind each other , the penalties cancel each other out.

FWIW, penalties cancelling each other out (2 wrongs = a right) is a well established principle in match racing. In many match racing formats, you do not have to take a penalty immediately but can try and force  the other boat into a foul and thus cancel your own penalty.  This is NOT the case in the AC where if you incur a penalty, you have to take the 50 m penalty .  So in fact the 2 wrongs= a right is pretty rare in the Prada Cup.

2. We have so much to learn from the kiwis about lockdowns. They have kept NZ largely cv19 free since the pandemc began.

2.

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

Why didn’t you get out when you had the chance 

I had to travel from NZ to the UK last year for family reasons. I am now stuck in what remains of the UK. It's not easy getting back home.

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2 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Thank you so much, this was incredible. Maneuvers one can actually follow, crew work one can actually see, boat movements that are actually in sync with what's happening on the boat. Plus superb boat-on-boat action. 

O.k., back to watching today's races. 

 

All that, plus waves, gear failure, protests…to me, this match was about as good as it got.

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2 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

It’s always good when somebody from another country tells you how things are in the country you live in

Oh I now that feeling only too well JALhazmat.

Cheers

Shanghai Sailor

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15 minutes ago, IPLore said:

1. The penalty for OCS in the Prada Cup is that the penalized boat has to drop 50 meters behind the other boat.  So when both boats are OCS , since they cannot be simultaneously behind each other , the penalties cancel each other out.

FWIW, penalties cancelling each other out (2 wrongs = a right) is a well established principle in match racing. In many match racing formats, you do not have to take a penalty immediately but can try and force  the other boat into a foul and thus cancel your own penalty.  This is NOT the case in the AC where if you incur a penalty, you have to take the 50 m penalty .  So in fact the 2 wrongs= a right is pretty rare in the Prada Cup.

2. We have so much to learn from the kiwis about lockdowns. They have kept NZ largely cv19 free since the pandemc began.

2.

Standard in match racing - people up thread need to read the RRSAC before calling the umpires wrong

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39 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Totally agree.

When I previously mentioned the original race was "offshore", I was sharply corrected that it was not "defined" as offshore. To me that's almost like saying the Sydney-Hobart or Fastnet races are not true offshore races because they could be in sight of land more than 50% of the time.

I watched - and re-watched - all the footage of the last Volvo Ocean Race, from drifting at a couple of knots at Hong Kong, to screaming around at Cape Town. Great stuff. Had me constantly checking their progress via the maps.

The Vendee Globe was a major disappointment to me. I had been looking forward to seeing at least some footage of these yachts, but we got only a map and skipper interviews.

I too would like to see races a longer than ~30 minutes, and with a few more challenges. Restricting races to sea states no more than in a mill pond, and with a very narrow wind range, is not enhancing the AC.

IMO.

Very similar to the way the J class went - too fragile and overdeveloped to go out in more than 18 knots so the guys took their 12's out instead.  The the 12's took over from the J's, although that was partly because a war sort of got in the way!

  This is crap 'racing' with way too constrained a racetrack and conditions for boats of these speeds.  Engagement too should be longer as others have said.  One mistake and you're toast?  That's not racing if there's no runway to find a way back.

 

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8 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Standard in match racing - people up thread need to read the RRSAC before calling the umpires wrong

OCS penalties do not cancel. Which makes sense, because if one boat is half way up the course, and one boat is over by a foot, how can those two penalties cancel? Answer, they don't. And as far as I am aware this is true for all match racing. 

Slater was wrong to neutralise the starting penalties. LR was immediately 50m behind INEOS, so their OCS penalty should could be wiped. INEOS were never 50 behind. 
However, INEOS had another 50m behind penalty for the w/l infringement. Again, INEOS never got behind. But for some reason Slater cleared it as they approached the boundary. 

One of the big issues with these penalties, unlike normal rules, is that it's impossible for the teams to know when they have cleared. Normally, you know when you have done a two turn or one turn penalty, and can then get on with racing. Here, because penalties are relative, rather than absolute, you are reliant on the umpire calling it promptly and accurately.

Then, Slater, when he realised he'd made a balls up, after being called out by Jimmy, he added the penalty for 'gaining advantage'. Which is a bit unfair, as INEOS didn't really gain an advantage despite the penalty, it's just Slater failed to apply the penalties properly. 

I think both teams can be a bit disappointed in the umpiring there.  

In the end, it was about fair. But it did distract both teams from getting on with racing for the best part of a leg. 

"(c) If a yacht has a penalty and the other yacht is penalized, each penalty shall be cancelled and this shall be signalled via the RO Comms. This rule does not apply to
penalties for OCS."

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3 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

OCS penalties do not cancel. Which makes sense, because if one boat is half way up the course, and one bot is over by a foot, how can those two penalties cancel? 

Slater was wrong to neutralise the starting penalties. LR was immediately 50m behind INEOS, so their OCS penalty should be wiped. INEOS were never 50 m behind. 
However, INEOS had another 50m behind penalty for the w/l infringement. Again, INEOS never got behind. But for some reason Slater cleared it as they approached the boundary. 

Then, when he realised he'd made a balls up, after being called out by Jimmy, he add the penalty for gaining advantage. Which is a bit unfair, INEOS didn't really gain an advantge, it's just Slater failed to apply the rules properly. 

I think both teams can be a bit disappointed in the umpiring there.  

"(c) If a yacht has a penalty and the other yacht is penalized, each penalty shall be cancelled and this shall be signalled via the RO Comms. This rule does not apply to
penalties for OCS."

Can you post a link to the rules.

Seems to me that if you are ocs but coax the other boat ocs, then that is part of the tactical game of starting. Someone has to win the start. If both boats are behind the line then the boat that is bow out has won the start. If both boats are ocs then the boat that is bow out....?     If both boats are OCS how is one boat more wrong than the other?

If L forces W ocs but makes a mistake and is ocs as well, then I dont think L deserves an advantage. The tactic failed.

But would like to see a rule.

If penalties for OCS are not cancelled then does this mean both boats have to take the penalty. Who goes first?  You cannot have first boat to get 50 m behind has cleared and then the other boat has to  clear.....because both boats would stop.

I see the only logical outcome as OCS cancelling each other out but the rules might say otherwise.

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bbb

17 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

OCS penalties do not cancel. Which makes sense, because if one boat is half way up the course, and one bot is over by a foot, how can those two penalties cancel? e.  

"(c) If a yacht has a penalty and the other yacht is penalized, each penalty shall be cancelled and this shall be signalled via the RO Comms. This rule does not apply to
penalties for OCS."

I think this is standard WS match racing rules and not the AC rules.

In AC rules, the penalty for OCS is the 50 meter drop back, which cannot work under WS rules

 

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Nope, it's these rules. Just read them up for a video. 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nZaSr30dFuP6Ob3mb3f0fNbHcr5s2pvU/view 

44.2 & 44.4 C are relvant

(a) OCS Penalties
Penalty for yachts that are OCS:
(i) after her starting signal and while inside the boundary, the penalized yacht
shall act immediately to reduce her VMG / VMC until she is 50 metres behind
the other yacht, or
(ii) the penalized yacht shall start as per definition start (a).

So, if you are over you can do one of two things. Start properly, or get behind the other yacht. 

LR got behind INEOS. INEOS then had to either get behind LR. Bit of a shit rule. But that's what it is. If two boats are over, then advantage immediately goes to the boat who was over by less as they can wipe their 50m penalty quicker. 

Does create a situation where both boats may be both racing backwards around the course to each get behind. 

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12 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Can you post a link to the rules.

Seems to me that if you are ocs but coax the other boat ocs, then that is part of the tactical game of starting. Someone has to win the start. If both boats are behind the line then the boat that is bow out has won the start. If both boats are ocs then the boat that is bow out....?     If both boats are OCS how is one boat more wrong than the other?

If L forces W ocs but makes a mistake and is ocs as well, then I dont think L deserves an advantage. The tactic failed.

But would like to see a rule.

If penalties for OCS are not cancelled then does this mean both boats have to take the penalty. Who goes first?  You cannot have first boat to get 50 m behind has cleared and then the other boat has to  clear.....because both boats would stop.

I see the only logical outcome as OCS cancelling each other out but the rules might say otherwise.

http://noticeboard.acofficials.org/

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12 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Can you post a link to the rules.

 

I see the only logical outcome as OCS cancelling each other out but the rules might say otherwise.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=YWNvZmZpY2lhbHMub3JnfGFjMzYtb2ZmaWNpYWwtbm90aWNlYm9hcmR8Z3g6NjBmNjdmN2I5MzUyZmQwOA

So the RRS for AC mean that both boats have to complete a 50m penalty.   Must think this through.

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3 minutes ago, marlowe said:

This is a good stats graphic. Do you have race 6?

It's a screenshot from a live video in italia (giornale della coppa on youtube). As soon as they show stats for race 6, I'll post them

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5 minutes ago, IPLore said:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=YWNvZmZpY2lhbHMub3JnfGFjMzYtb2ZmaWNpYWwtbm90aWNlYm9hcmR8Z3g6NjBmNjdmN2I5MzUyZmQwOA

So the RRS for AC mean that both boats have to complete a 50m penalty.   Must think this through.

I think it makes sense, as far as any of the penalties make sense. The scenario I gave above where one boat is halfway up the course and one is just over couldn't equalise. That's true for match racing generally and here in the AC.

I think it would be better, if both boats are over, then they have to go back (option b in the rules). The race committee could just raise a recall. 

But, they haven't do this. 

I think the penalties are very open to 'professional' fouls in many areas. And the penalty clearing with a tack is hardly a penalty. 

There is also a rule where the umpire can turn off a penalty as long as the boat has tried to give up ground. I reckon this may be to stop the situation where boats race backward around the course to stop another boat from clearing.

Lots of issues, but all stem from the fact that these penalties are relative to other boat, rather than an absolute action the crew with penalty can take.  

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24 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Nope, it's these rules. Just read them up for a video. 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nZaSr30dFuP6Ob3mb3f0fNbHcr5s2pvU/view 

44.2 & 44.4 C are relvant

(a) OCS Penalties
Penalty for yachts that are OCS:
(i) after her starting signal and while inside the boundary, the penalized yacht
shall act immediately to reduce her VMG / VMC until she is 50 metres behind
the other yacht, or
(ii) the penalized yacht shall start as per definition start (a).

So, if you are over you can do one of two things. Start properly, or get behind the other yacht. 

LR got behind INEOS. INEOS then had to either get behind LR. Bit of a shit rule. But that's what it is. If two boats are over, then advantage immediately goes to the boat who was over by less as they can wipe their 50m penalty quicker. 

Does create a situation where both boats may be both racing backwards around the course to each get behind. 

Yes I just read the rules as well.

It creates a fascinating tactical conundrum and it is clear looking at the race that neither boat had thought through the process of simultaneous OCS.

The requirement is to get 50 meters behind the other boat or restart.  Did LR slow down and get 50m behind Ineos?

If both boats are ocs, the key is to slam on the brakes to try and be first boat to clear. (note that neither boat tried to do this).  If both boats had realized they needed to get 50 m behind, and both tried, they might be unable to clear. In which case it is a rush to restart and neither boat tried to restart. Which casues me to winder if the teams had analyzed this situation.

The SMART thing for ineos to have done would have been immediately to tack or bear away and restart.  As they restarted, that would have cleared OCS and since they were well over 50m behind that would have separately cleared the W/L infringement.  That would have left LR miles ahead but LR would not have cleared their OCS and Ineos would have grounds to protest.

If LR had realized what as happening, their only defense against that tactic would have been to try and restart as well but they woud have to respond very quickly to prevent Ineos getting 50 m behind and scrubbing the W/L penalty.

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18 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Nope, it's these rules. Just read them up for a video. 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nZaSr30dFuP6Ob3mb3f0fNbHcr5s2pvU/view 

44.2 & 44.4 C are relvant

(a) OCS Penalties
Penalty for yachts that are OCS:
(i) after her starting signal and while inside the boundary, the penalized yacht
shall act immediately to reduce her VMG / VMC until she is 50 metres behind
the other yacht, or
(ii) the penalized yacht shall start as per definition start (a).

So, if you are over you can do one of two things. Start properly, or get behind the other yacht. 

LR got behind INEOS. INEOS then had to either get behind LR. Bit of a shit rule. But that's what it is. If two boats are over, then advantage immediately goes to the boat who was over by less as they can wipe their 50m penalty quicker. 

Does create a situation where both boats may be both racing backwards around the course to each get behind. 

Though start penalties cant be cancelled?

44.4 All Penalties
The following applies to penalties described in rules 44.2 and 44.3:
(a) The penalty distance is measured between the most advanced points of the platform 
border measured along the true wind axis of the non-penalized yacht.
(b) If a yacht has multiple penalties, then
(i) the distance a yacht is required to be behind in rule 44.2 (a) and 44.2(b), or the 
distance a yacht is required to lose in rule 44.2(c), is multiplied by the number
of the penalties given; and
(ii) when a yacht has both a 44.2(a) or 44.2(b) penalty and a 44.2(c) penalty, the 
44.2(a) or 44.2(b) penalty shall be taken prior to the yacht taking the 44.2(c) 
penalty.
(c) If a yacht has a penalty and the other yacht is penalized, each penalty shall be 
cancelled and this shall be signalled via the RO Comms. This rule does not apply to 
penalties for OCS.

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1 minute ago, Mozzy Sails said:

I think it makes sense, as far as any of the penalties make sense. The scenario I gave above where one boat is halfway up the course and one is just over couldn't equalise. That's true for match racing generally and here in the AC.

I think it would be better, if both boats are over, then they have to go back (option b in the rules). The race committee could just raise a recall. 

But, they haven't do this. 

I think the penalties are very open to 'professional' fouls in many areas. And the penalty clearing with a tack is hardly a penalty. 

There is also a rule where the umpire can turn off a penalty as long as the boat has tried to give up ground. I reckon this may be to stop the situation where boats race backward around the course to stop another boat from clearing.

Lots of issues, but all stem from the fact that these penalties are relative to other boat, rather than an absolute action the crew with penalty can take.  

So Mozzy......do you reckon either boat cleared their penalty for OCS?

I do not see LR slowing to get 50 m behind and Ineos did take 2 penalties. 1 for W/L and one for gaining an advantage. 

Very questionable calls there and almost amounts to significant error and request for redress which could include abandoning the race. 

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4 minutes ago, IPLore said:

If LR had realized what as happening, their only defense against that tactic would have been to try and restart as well but they woud have to respond very quickly to prevent Ineos getting 50 m behind and scrubbing the W/L penalty.

I think LR realized as Jimmy said' lets tack to clear the penalty'. And then they went 50m behind before INEOS could do anything.

But then slater made the mistake of neutralising the penalties... so was all a bit pointless and confused. 

But I think LR were 'on it'. 

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

1. The penalty for OCS in the Prada Cup is that the penalized boat has to drop 50 meters behind the other boat.  So when both boats are OCS , since they cannot be simultaneously behind each other , the penalties cancel each other out.

What happens if one is 5 boat lengths over and the other only 1?

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The penalty has to be taken after the penalty is called. I dont see LR slowing and losing 50 m after the penalty was called. Did LR clear her OCS?

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4 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

I think LR realized as Jimmy said' lets tack to clear the penalty'. And then they went 50m behind before INEOS could do anything.

But then slater made the mistake of neutralising the penalties... so was all a bit pointless and confused. 

But I think LR were 'on it'. 

Okay. Right. Missed that comment on the comms.

Smart and fats thinking by Jimmy and a big miss by Ineos.

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Jimmy says standby tack, slow build for the penalty, video below. Should start right time. 

And watch the dashboard here.https://www.americascup.com/en/advanced-dashboard .  LR 36m behind at start when pentalty flashes. They drop back to 57 during tack. So plenty enough to clear OCS penalty. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

2. We have so much to learn from the kiwis about lockdowns. They have kept NZ largely cv19 free since the pandemc began.

No doubt they have distanced well from other countries, but on the evidence of today they have not learnt to distance from each other.  I don’t say this to gloat, but to warn. Six people in office have died with COVID, despite only being allowed on site if it isn’t possible to work from home and needing a negative test result to get on site (taken twice weekly) and needing to wear a mask and goggles if getting within 2m of a colleague and having a temperature check every day. The UK variant is very transmissible, I look at the shore support huddled together and worry for them.  

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13 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Okay. Right. Missed that comment on the comms.

Smart and fats thinking by Jimmy and a big miss by Ineos.

Cant see LR taking the penalty in the highlights video but Mozzy sees it in a video unavailable for US viewers. Smart work by Jimmy.

Shit judging for cancelling the ocs penalties. There should have been a scramble to get back to the line.  In simultaneous OCS you need to get back asap.....if you get 50 m behind before getting to the line, then start racing again, if not then first to restart has the advantage.

Ineos never seemed to be urgently back peddling so its like they had not discussed what to do in this situation, maybe judges cancelled before they had chance to respond but from Mozzy post, Jimmy was on the situation right away.

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5 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Jimmy says standby tack, slow build for the penalty, video below. Should start right time. 

And watch the dashboard here.https://www.americascup.com/en/advanced-dashboard .  LR 36m behind at start when pentalty flashes. They drop back to 57 during tack. So plenty enough to clear OCS penalty. 

 

 

 

Thx Mozzy. Cant watch the video in USA unless you embed in one of your videos. Brilliant and quick thinking by Jimmy. Really that is how they won the start by thinking through the rules in advance.  Ben needed to stop Jimmy clearing the penalty. Once Jimmy had cleared his, then he was right to claim unfair advantage . 

Very unclear judging and they used unfair advantage to get the right result which is Ben owed 2 penalties.

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

1. The penalty for OCS in the Prada Cup is that the penalized boat has to drop 50 meters behind the other boat.  So when both boats are OCS , since they cannot be simultaneously behind each other , the penalties cancel each other out.

 

 

Just to be clear to everyone. I was wrong in this analysis.  Mozzy gives best summary. The judges were entirely wrong to cancel both OCS penalties.

Jimmy cleared his OCS penalty. Quick thinking on immys part.  But although Ineos did not appear to respond to the penalty light immediately then the judges called the penalties were neutralized, leaving Ineos with no option but to continue racing and take the W/L penalty

Sloppy judging.

I would have thought the judges would have at least discussed the possibility of both boats ocs and have a predetermined call, but apparently not. I suspect that there will be a debrief among the umpires and it wont be wrong again.

Im almost hoping for another double OCS later in AC because the resolution will be very exciting.

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LR also had the option to dip back behind the line and restart without doing any tacks. If they did that, then it would be very clear that GB still had to get 50m behind.

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That "both over early" incident is utterly ridiculous!

The judges can decide rightly or wrongly, and you guys can analyze that as much as you like, but you fundamentaly cannot start a race early, period. It would defy all logics.

Race 5 must be declared void.

Just imagine, in the extreme, that both boats are over the line right after entering the box, and simply continue onwards. Or a 100m track race where they all start ½ a second early, just hilarious.

The rules and/or the interpretation/judgement are a joke, in this case. Just another fuck up...

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1 minute ago, NeedAClew said:

Jimmy is smarter than I thought and/or working in a dual helm team has made him more open to new thinking.

And it seems that their dual helm approach is working as evidenced by the starts and the speed of the tacks. 

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15 minutes ago, captainSackSparrow said:

In the commentary there was some mutter about them being both OCS but because there was no clear advantage to either they cancelled out. I can't see any provision for this in the rules, can anyone else?

Both OCS, no advantage, penalties cancelled.

Seems like common sense prevailed.

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There was a ton of pressure on Jimmy in SFO and Bermuda. He doesn’t appear to have that same pressure here and maybe that’s because he’s co-helming. He can focus on what he does best. 

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1 minute ago, MaxHugen said:

Both OCS, no advantage, penalties cancelled.

Seems like common sense prevailed.

I think it did but the application of that common sense confused us and most importantly, the helms. 

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Made for TV penalty structure... is anyone surprised.  The only way to keep the race entertaining and maybe less of a parade is to keep the boats close.  I am sure all teams wanted this so that if they F'd up they still had a chance.  Being a traditionalist I don't care for it.   You F up you should pay the price.

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2 minutes ago, Paddywackery said:

And it seems that their dual helm approach is working as evidenced by the starts and the speed of the tacks. 

I had doubts about dual helmsmen, in respect of comms &/or who makes split decisions... well done to them for sorting through some early probs.

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3 hours ago, kiwin said:

I had to travel from NZ to the UK last year for family reasons. I am now stuck in what remains of the UK. It's not easy getting back home.

I wish you would stop bleating.  Comparing the UK to NZ in the covid pandemic is ridiculous.  NZ is 4 .5 hours flight from Australia.  The population is 4.9 million.  There is over 9million people living in London alone.   In normal times 80.1 million people a year pass through Heathrow alone.  and there are 6 other international airports within spitting distance of London.  If the UK had closed its borders there would have been a humanitarian catastrophe. 
Our economy will bounce back, NZ has f all to look forward to but handouts from the CPP. 

It's a piece of piss to get to NZ.  Look at all the AC teams that managed it.

When you have handed your arse on a plate to the commies I expect it will have to be the UK that come and sort it out.

 

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56 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

That "both over early" incident is utterly ridiculous!

The judges can decide rightly or wrongly, and you guys can analyze that as much as you like, but you fundamentaly cannot start a race early, period. It would defy all logics.

Race 5 must be declared void.

Just imagine, in the extreme, that both boats are over the line right after entering the box, and simply continue onwards. Or a 100m track race where they all start ½ a second early, just hilarious.

The rules and/or the interpretation/judgement are a joke, in this case. Just another fuck up...

Yes. In short: There was no competitor present at the start, hence, no race took place.

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