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26 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Both OCS, no advantage, penalties cancelled.

Seems like common sense prevailed.

The rules did not prevail. Since match racing , especially at the start, includes quick thinking about the rules as you position yourself for advantage.....it is frustrating that the umpires did not know the rules.

Both OCS. Both have to take a penalty.

Ineos did not take a penalty for OCS (possibly because the umpires announced that the penalties had been cancelled)  It was probably frustrating for Jimmy because it appears he took a penalty. It was frustrating for Ben because he was awarded an additional penalty later in the race for "gaining an advantage".  

The rules, now that I have read them, are crystal clear. If you are OCS you have to take  a penalty .  That should be drummed into the head of every helm so that they react immediately. If both are over, your reaction has to be even faster because who ever takes the penalty first gets the advantage. 

Will the teams ask for clarification in light of the umpires ruling that the penalties cancelled?

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Having a race like that is why the committee was correct in postponing the race so many times. I think that the race was worth the wait.  Cheers to the Race Committee!

Semi Final Race 1 book is open - hit like for an AM win, dislike for LRPP.  Don’t sit on the fence now!

Please just stick to the facts and not your opinion.  You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how this all works.  The flu is down because of all the hand washing, social distancing, mask wearing,

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5 hours ago, sosoomii said:

2. Kiwis have much to learn about lockdowns and social distancing judging by the number of spectator boats and shoreside crowds with no distancing. 

I think we might know a tad more about total lockdowns and social distancing from our covid-19 results, don't ya' think??

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3 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Not sure making up rules on the spot is common sense. And not sure the penalty rules as written are very sensible either. Why on earth not have a rule that requires them to start properly by dipping or rounding an end?

The umpires don't make up the Sailing Rules, do they?  Still seems to me that in a perhaps uncertain situation, Rules-wise, they did something practical.

Haven't listened to any post-race press conference, but were either GB or LR particularly upset by the decision?

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6 minutes ago, IPLore said:

If you are OCS you have to take  a penalty .  That should be drummed into the head of every helm so that they react immediately. If both are over, your reaction has to be even faster because who ever takes the penalty first gets the advantage.

Exactly what Jimmy did.

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The programmed decision tree in the minds of every helm/tactician should be:

OCS :  Take a penalty .

#1. If other boat is not taking a penalty:  Slow up and allow 50m lead.

#2. If other boat was also OCS and taking penalty: Go back to line asap and restart  before they do.

I think the advantage that Jimmy had was that he knew they were both over, but Ineos may not have been able to see that Jimmy was also over. Jimmy pursued Option #1 and thus was in unassailable position from rule pov, Thus Jimmy must have been frustrated when umpires cancelled both ocs penalties,.

Jimmy won the start twice

1. Shutting the door on Ben

2. Quicker response to OCS.

He did deserve to emerge on top but it was messy from the judges for a while.

 

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2 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Exactly what Jimmy did.

Yeah so doubly frustrating when judges ruled Ineos had complied with W/L penalty and did not have to take a penalty for OCS leaving LR behind after they had so clearly made the right calls.

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1 minute ago, IPLore said:

Yeah so doubly frustrating when judges ruled Ineos had complied with W/L penalty and did not have to take a penalty for OCS leaving LR behind after they had so clearly made the right calls.

True. In this episode there was a lot of confusion from the umpires and it lasted for most of the upwind leg.

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1 hour ago, MaxHugen said:

Both OCS, no advantage, penalties cancelled.

Seems like common sense prevailed.

This is not, in any way 'common sense' having OCS penalties cancel. For the reasons outlined in the thread. 

In the end, I think things just about worked themselves out. But it was a bit of shambles of umpiring. Both teams had reasons to be annoyed. 

 

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37 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

T

39 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

The umpires don't make up the Sailing Rules, do they? 

 

Well, in this case, yes it appears they do :D

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Why on earth not have a rule that requires them to start properly by dipping or rounding an end?

I think they were concerned about rules that would make these boats do hard manoeuvres, hence no 360s etc.   So I think they thought these boats would not be able to do big dips or go arounds.    I think the 50m behind makes sense for one OCS, but the rules don't appear to have considered 2 OCSs.  They exclude OCS from being cancelled by another penalty because otherwise as soon as a boat got a penalty during the prestart, the other would just start the race OCS and cancel the penalty.    They need a rule to be explicit about if both boats are OCS.

Now we've seen these boats, I think they should reconsider the penalty for next time around. The whole 50m from the other boat is stupid once they are racing, especially as a tack costs about that anyway, so just doing a tack is often enough to clear a penalty. As we saw in this race tacking towards the favoured right hand side was the better thing to do anyway, so the penalty was nothing.  Also, if the other boat also tack or falls off the foils, then the penalised boat has to drop back further.   IF your boat takes off well, then the best thing to do if the other boat get's a penalty is to splash down and force them to do the same!

I think they would be better for the next AC75 regatta to just say that a boat has to sail negative VMG or VMC for 2 seconds to clear a penalty. ie just a big bear away or come up. That would get rid of the strange relative to other boat consideration and a boat would know exactly what they need to do to.

 

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10 minutes ago, sfigone said:

I think they were concerned about rules that would make these boats do hard manoeuvres, hence no 360s etc.   So I think they thought these boats would not be able to do big dips or go arounds.    I think the 50m behind makes sense for one OCS, but the rules don't appear to have considered 2 OCSs.  They exclude OCS from being cancelled by another penalty because otherwise as soon as a boat got a penalty during the prestart, the other would just start the race OCS and cancel the penalty. 

Good point.  That is why OCS penalty cannot be cancelled

  They need a rule to be explicit about if both boats are OCS.

Very hard to draft. The current rule offers all kind of permutations.  You can rush back and restart but that can lead to Boat B that is slower to restart losing more than 50 meters so the other option the have is to wait and just take the 50 meter penalty when Boat A passes after taking their penalty.

Now we've seen these boats, I think they should reconsider the penalty for next time around. The whole 50m from the other boat is stupid once they are racing, especially as a tack costs about that anyway, so just doing a tack is often enough to clear a penalty. As we saw in this race tacking towards the favoured right hand side was the better thing to do anyway, so the penalty was nothing.  Also, if the other boat also tack or falls off the foils, then the penalised boat has to drop back further.   IF your boat takes off well, then the best thing to do if the other boat get's a penalty is to splash down and force them to do the same!

I think they would be better for the next AC75 regatta to just say that a boat has to sail negative VMG or VMC for 2 seconds to clear a penalty. ie just a big bear away or come up. That would get rid of the strange relative to other boat consideration and a boat would know exactly what they need to do to.

I would like to hear from the competitors what they think of the penalty.

 

 

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Plenty of good discussion here about the penalties at that start. But what also caught me by surprise was: 

Damn that was almost a collision! Has anyone taken a very close look? 
 

Very aggressive by both, by BA for ‘barging’ and by JS for the hard luff. The relative boat speeds were close (although the Ineos lee foil could have swung pretty fast radially during the tackaway) but any contact might’ve been pretty bad. Yikes! 

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Plenty of good discussion here about the penalties at that start. But what also caught me by surprise was: 

Damn that was almost a collision! Has anyone taken a very close look? 
 

Very aggressive by both, by BA for ‘barging’ and by JS for the hard luff. The relative boat speeds were close (although the Ineos lee foil could have swung pretty fast radially during the tackaway) but any contact might’ve been pretty bad. Yikes! 

They both kept the pedal down. :D

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Not based on this, no.

 

D83CDA57-F8B8-469F-8188-5109543739DE.jpeg

7EE53DAE-B21A-4878-9430-54E39AD6CCBC.jpeg

If it's not social distancing, it's social sharing. They look to be celebrating and sharing their positive spirit. There's a lot of mask wearing going on and, many are shore team members and the WAGS. 

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1 minute ago, Amati said:

What happens if Ben rams Prada?  

Crunchy bits of carbon sandwiches float around and late nights fixing the boats happens. 

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2 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

Crunchy bits of carbon sandwiches float around and late nights fixing the boats happens. 

Suitably concrete yet vague at the same time!  :lol:  

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7 minutes ago, Amati said:

What happens if Ben rams Prada?  Or if he tangles with a start line marker?

It all gets a bit messy.

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33 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Plenty of good discussion here about the penalties at that start. But what also caught me by surprise was: 

Damn that was almost a collision! Has anyone taken a very close look? 
 

Very aggressive by both, by BA for ‘barging’ and by JS for the hard luff. The relative boat speeds were close (although the Ineos lee foil could have swung pretty fast radially during the tackaway) but any contact might’ve been pretty bad. Yikes! 

I thought it was reckless. Ben was fortunate LR was around 2 seconds early and bore away down the line.

If LR had been 2 seconds later, then Jimmy would have sailed high and Ben would have just piled into the side of LR or the bouy. 

I don't believe Ben could have calculated that LR was 2 seconds early, so I conclude it was unnecessarily dangerous to just pile in. Desperate times.

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22 minutes ago, Amati said:

What happens if Ben rams Prada?  Or if he tangles with a start line marker?

Yes, an even tighter lockout and Ben could easily have hit that marker. If it’s one of those 800lb beasts then yikes! 
 

There was also the swing of the stern through the tack, and before that the likely proximity between his stays and LR’s flying foil. 

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13 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Yes, an even tighter lockout and Ben could easily have hit that marker. If it’s one of those 800lb beasts then yikes! 
 

There was also the swing of the stern through the tack, and before that the likely proximity between his stays and LR’s flying foil. 

And the LR rudder and INEOS foil came within a whisper of mating. 

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1 hour ago, sfigone said:

I think they were concerned about rules that would make these boats do hard manoeuvres, hence no 360s etc.   So I think they thought these boats would not be able to do big dips or go arounds.    I think the 50m behind makes sense for one OCS, but the rules don't appear to have considered 2 OCSs.  They exclude OCS from being cancelled by another penalty because otherwise as soon as a boat got a penalty during the prestart, the other would just start the race OCS and cancel the penalty.    They need a rule to be explicit about if both boats are OCS.

Now we've seen these boats, I think they should reconsider the penalty for next time around. The whole 50m from the other boat is stupid once they are racing, especially as a tack costs about that anyway, so just doing a tack is often enough to clear a penalty. As we saw in this race tacking towards the favoured right hand side was the better thing to do anyway, so the penalty was nothing.  Also, if the other boat also tack or falls off the foils, then the penalised boat has to drop back further.   IF your boat takes off well, then the best thing to do if the other boat get's a penalty is to splash down and force them to do the same!

I think they would be better for the next AC75 regatta to just say that a boat has to sail negative VMG or VMC for 2 seconds to clear a penalty. ie just a big bear away or come up. That would get rid of the strange relative to other boat consideration and a boat would know exactly what they need to do to.

 

I agree the rules weren't applied correctly, but I am not sure that the penalties that are actually in the rules haven't been thought through.  If you have two boats that are OCS, the remedies favor the boat that is "less" OCS, as they are further behind, so closer to the line to restart or closer to being 50 meters behind to clear the penalty.  I think if properly applied it makes for an interesting, but workable, scenario.

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

The simple penalty would've been to make both boats restart like every other Americas Cup, or any other race where competitors false start.

Yes,  general recall and new start would not apply as the RC can easily identify if just two boats are over. So return and recross the line should be the only solution.

I hope there is some overnight clarification from the umpires. 

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41 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

I thought it was reckless. Ben was fortunate LR was around 2 seconds early. 

If LR had been 2 seconds later, then Jimmy would have sailed high and Ben would have just piled into LR or the boy. 

I don't believe Ben could have calculated that LR was 2 seconds early, so I conclude it was unnecessarily dangerous to just pile in.

But given there was enough room ben had to give it a go... it was better to risk and get a penalty than bale out and either collide with the mark or be 3 boatlengths behind and chase them up the course

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28 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Yes, an even tighter lockout and Ben could easily have hit that marker. If it’s one of those 800lb beasts then yikes! 
 

There was also the swing of the stern through the tack, and before that the likely proximity between his stays and LR’s flying foil. 

What are the odds of BA losing it and a collision happening?

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Just now, mad said:

What are the odds of BA losing it and a collision happening?

That does beg the definition of ‘it’.  Could be very multilayered....

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45 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Grant gives him extra special bonus bumming and we all go home early.

Or AM goes to the finals?  There is a schedule, after all...

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6 minutes ago, mad said:

What are the odds of BA losing it and a collision happening?

The starts today are going to be pretty hairy, and even more so on Monday in more wind if INEOS are still hanging on.

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3 hours ago, IPLore said:

The rules did not prevail. Since match racing , especially at the start, includes quick thinking about the rules as you position yourself for advantage.....it is frustrating that the umpires did not know the rules.

Both OCS. Both have to take a penalty.

Ineos did not take a penalty for OCS (possibly because the umpires announced that the penalties had been cancelled)  It was probably frustrating for Jimmy because it appears he took a penalty. It was frustrating for Ben because he was awarded an additional penalty later in the race for "gaining an advantage".  

The rules, now that I have read them, are crystal clear. If you are OCS you have to take  a penalty .  That should be drummed into the head of every helm so that they react immediately. If both are over, your reaction has to be even faster because who ever takes the penalty first gets the advantage. 

Will the teams ask for clarification in light of the umpires ruling that the penalties cancelled?

If I understand these AC protocol rules, penalties are assessed by getting 50 meters behind the other boats.  So in this case how can they both get 50 meters behind each other?   The penalties cancel.

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1 minute ago, sailman said:

If I understand these AC protocol rules, penalties are assessed by getting 50 meters behind the other boats.  So in this case how can they both get 50 meters behind each other?   The penalties cancel.

Not reasonable with an OCS as Mozzy has indicated because one boat could have started much earlier and be well up the course.

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7 minutes ago, sailman said:

If I understand these AC protocol rules, penalties are assessed by getting 50 meters behind the other boats.  So in this case how can they both get 50 meters behind each other?   The penalties cancel.

It's been explained numerous times in this thread that part C of this rule specifically excludes the situation where both boats are over early. It specifically removes the possibility of clearing a penalty when both boats are over early. I'm presuming they were imagining a situation where both were early and one had a significant advantage.

Anywho the outcome is that race 5 doesn't meet the "definition" of a race according to the current rules.

The only option available to the umps was abandon the race.

 

44.4 All Penalties
The following applies to penalties described in rules 44.2 and 44.3:
(a)...
(b)...
(c) If a yacht has a penalty and the other yacht is penalized, each penalty shall be cancelled and this shall be signalled via the RO Comms. This rule does not apply to penalties for OCS.

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1 minute ago, winchfodder said:

Not reasonable with an OCS as Mozzy has indicated because one boat could have started much earlier and be well up the course.

But they weren't, were they. So what were they supposed to do?

Perhaps this should be left at BA's response: "It is what it is. The umpires do a good job and that was their decision."

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51 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Yes,  general recall and new start would not apply as the RC can easily identify if just two boats are over. So return and recross the line should be the only solution.

I hope there is some overnight clarification from the umpires. 

It seems unlikely they would change the rules at this point.  Is there a process in place that could make that happen overnight?

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3 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Well, in this case, yes it appears they do :D

 

I raised my concerns about the umpiring back at the beginning of the year...

 

On 1/3/2021 at 6:11 PM, nav said:

It's interesting, the moaning here about these non-leadmine boats and how bad they are at 'match racing. It seems to me that an issue is that they get into (and out of contact) so fast that for the crew and the umpires to predict and determine what will/has happened becomes a bit arbitrary. At 10kn you could very accurately place your bow say within a meter or 2 of the other boat, with a fairly predictable outcome, both in terms of (hopefully non- ) contact and penalties. Now not only do you have to deal with invisible virtual extremities to the 2 boats but also have maybe only a quarter of the time to make judgements, along with virtually no boat on boat practice :blink:

Speaking of umpires - I wasn't really convinced the Richard Slater was taking it all that seriously but that may be just the way he comes across, or because of the issues created by the rule set and the speed?

 

On 1/3/2021 at 7:06 PM, nav said:

Yep fair enough, good insight. What do you think of the size of the protective virtual diamonds around the boats, the sizes of the circles at the marks and the 'size' of the penalties compared to the speeds and handling capabilities of the boats?

 

But I was assured that Richard Slater took his job very seriously, that the umpires are professional and practice a lot - making mistakes or their being casual about wiping penalties extremely unlikely ;)

 

Another view of the incident immediatly before

151220808_3588601591258484_5153870952636

(c) C Gregory

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With the new Class, racing-curtailed AC cycle, etc, I never ever imagined the two Prada Cup finalists would be this freaking close in performance. Races 5 and 6 yesterday were pretty damn amazing! 

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5 minutes ago, efrank said:

It seems unlikely they would change the rules at this point.  Is there a process in place that could make that happen overnight?

No need to change the rules for this. Just need to be aware that in this situation the race is abandoned in this class of boat. Obviously they determined that it was too dangerous to dip the line in these.

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To my un-expert eye it looked as though BA was determined to stick it (nose of the boat) in there . . 

and was willing to have a collision. INEOS had zero rights ..  

And with a mark there, not a committee boat, he also had room to bail out. 

Chose not to . .   

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5 minutes ago, Flags said:

No need to change the rules for this. Just need to be aware that in this situation the race is abandoned in this class of boat. Obviously they determined that it was too dangerous to dip the line in these.

Seems like you are suggesting a change to the rules?  I don't see where it says the race is abandoned if they are OCS.

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6 minutes ago, efrank said:

Seems like you are suggesting a change to the rules?  I don't see where it says the race is abandoned if they are OCS.

It's not a race until they meet the definition provided earlier in the rules. Which includes how to start, which they both didn't do.

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3 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Not based on this, no.

Which is why the NZ government expressed it's preference to delay (NZers generally follow the L3 and L4 rules, but at L2 all bets are off) which ACE conveyed to LR and ... well you know the rest.

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13 minutes ago, Flags said:

It's not a race until they meet the definition provided earlier in the rules. Which includes how to start, which they both didn't do.

Here is the rule. (b) applies. They started.

Start A yacht starts when:
(a) her platform border having been entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal, any part of her platform border cross the starting line from the pre-start side to the course side; or
(b) having crossed the starting line from the pre-start side to the course side within 10 seconds prior to the starting signal and been identified as OCS, she completes a penalty for OCS.

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50 minutes ago, Flags said:

It's been explained numerous times in this thread that part C of this rule specifically excludes the situation where both boats are over early. It specifically removes the possibility of clearing a penalty when both boats are over early. I'm presuming they were imagining a situation where both were early and one had a significant advantage.

Anywho the outcome is that race 5 doesn't meet the "definition" of a race according to the current rules.

The only option available to the umps was abandon the race.

 

44.4 All Penalties
The following applies to penalties described in rules 44.2 and 44.3:
(a)...
(b)...
(c) If a yacht has a penalty and the other yacht is penalized, each penalty shall be cancelled and this shall be signalled via the RO Comms. This rule does not apply to penalties for OCS.

This explanation is not correct. Mozzy has explained this well and I went back to the rules and I agree with Mozzy. 

44.4 (c) prevents cancelling corresponding penalties in the case of OCS.  If a boat is OCS it has to take a penalty. If both boats are OCS they both have to take penalties under Rule 44.2 (a)

The AC rules allow for both boats to take penalties if they are both OCS. They have a choice of penalties.  Either :

1. Get 50 meters behind the other boat

2. Restart.

In option #1 , you want to be the first boat to drop 50 meters, so that the other boat has to take their penalty subsequently. This gives a slight advantage to the boat that was behind or had the faster reaction time. In race 5, this was Jimmy Spithill who realized they incurred a penalty, , tacked to reduce speed and feel 50 meters behind Ineos. Thus Jimmy and LR took a penalty for OCS.

If both boats realize they were OCS , slam on the brakes to get 50 m behind but cannot get 50 m behind then they should restart under option 2. First to complete restart is off and running. the other boat has to decide if they are closer behind restarting or just take the 50 m penalty.

Either way, the current rules allow for both boats being ocs and abandoning the race is not an option. The umpires should have cleared Jimmy from OCS the moment he took his penalty (if they deem he took a penalty) and left Ineos with 2 penalties, 1 for ocs and 1 for W/L.  

 

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9 minutes ago, efrank said:

Here is the rule. (b) applies. They started.

Start A yacht starts when:
(a) her platform border having been entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal, any part of her platform border cross the starting line from the pre-start side to the course side; or
(b) having crossed the starting line from the pre-start side to the course side within 10 seconds prior to the starting signal and been identified as OCS, she completes a penalty for OCS.

Correct.

Jimmy complied with the definition of start.

I am not sure that Ineos complied because it may have taken more than 10 seconds to bleed off the penalty. That however might be deemed due to a significant error on the part of the umpires . Alternatively Ineos may have been deemed as trying to take the penalty Nobody has protested Ineos though because she did take 2 penalties and the other boat won.

 

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11 minutes ago, IPLore said:

This explanation is not correct. Mozzy has explained this well and I went back to the rules and I agree with Mozzy. 

44.4 (c) prevents cancelling corresponding penalties in the case of OCS.  If a boat is OCS it has to take a penalty. If both boats are OCS they both have to take penalties under Rule 44.2 (a)

The AC rules allow for both boats to take penalties if they are both OCS. They have a choice of penalties.  Either :

1. Get 50 meters behind the other boat

2. Restart.

(...)

Apologies, I cannot find the restart option in the RRS. Please kindly provide the rule number/page. Thanks.

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7 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

OCS penalties do not cancel. Which makes sense, because if one boat is half way up the course, and one boat is over by a foot, how can those two penalties cancel? Answer, they don't. And as far as I am aware this is true for all match racing. 

 

If that was the case the umpires would just go into a umpire initiated penalty unity they decided the situation had been restored to a fair point.

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1 minute ago, Paddywackery said:

Thanks Winch. Is there a similar chance that it might rise in the afternoon like it did yesterday?

I am not local to Hauraki Gulf. I believe the PredictWind forecasts (as above) include any seabreeze effect in the late afternoon.

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4 hours ago, strider470 said:

True. In this episode there was a lot of confusion from the umpires and it lasted for most of the upwind leg.

Yep total cluster fuck but they are only human like the rest of us shit kickers.

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7 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

I am not local to Hauraki Gulf. I believe the PredictWind forecasts (as above) include any seabreeze effect in the late afternoon.

apologies. You can only see what I see :P

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21 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Apologies, I cannot find the restart option in the RRS. Please kindly provide the rule number/page. Thanks.

From Sailer99's post 6955

 

44.2 Penalties
(a) OCS Penalties
Penalty for yachts that are OCS:
(i) after her starting signal and while inside the boundary, the penalized yacht shall act immediately to reduce her VMG / VMC until she is 50 metres behind the other yacht, or
(ii) the penalized yacht shall start as per definition start (a).


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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Yep total cluster fuck but they are only human like the rest of us shit kickers.

Yes, I agree.  in another post I said they have a very difficult job with those speeds

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4 hours ago, IPLore said:

 It was frustrating for Ben because he was awarded an additional penalty later in the race for "gaining an advantage".  
 

No. BA second penalty was for taking room at a mark he was not entitled to IMO.

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3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Plenty of good discussion here about the penalties at that start. But what also caught me by surprise was: 

Damn that was almost a collision! Has anyone taken a very close look? 
 

Very aggressive by both, by BA for ‘barging’ and by JS for the hard luff. The relative boat speeds were close (although the Ineos lee foil could have swung pretty fast radially during the tackaway) but any contact might’ve been pretty bad. Yikes! 

Indeed mate, very nearly a cluster fuck!

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8 minutes ago, efrank said:

From Sailer99's post 6955

 

44.2 Penalties
(a) OCS Penalties
Penalty for yachts that are OCS:
(i) after her starting signal and while inside the boundary, the penalized yacht shall act immediately to reduce her VMG / VMC until she is 50 metres behind the other yacht, or
(ii) the penalized yacht shall start as per definition start (a).


Thanks a lot.

Start  A yacht starts when: 
(a) her platform border having been entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal, any part of her platform border cross the starting line from the pre-start side to the course side; or 
(b) having crossed the starting line from the pre-start side to the course side within 10 seconds prior to the starting signal and been identified as OCS, she completes a penalty for OCS. 


So, it would be no general recall, but an individual restart of the boat that was OCS - in this case two individual restarts.

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My forecast for today at 4pm for course C and D. The back paddock will be 20% less.

NE 12 to 15 knots. Dropping as the evening approaches. Slight chance of gusts above 15 knots. 

It will be a warm day at 26 deg. The sea breeze is localised and Predict Wind doesn't allow for it. 

 

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For you match racers out there, do you think it was reasonable for BA to think there would be a little room there because Prada was early and would presumably run down the line a little, or should he have anticipated that Prada wouldn't care if they were OCS and would rather pinch up Ineos?  i.e. is it a common move to push your opponent up across the line even if it means you starting early?

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The 50 yard, or whatever it is penalty makes no sense when both boats are over the line.  One can be over by a length and the other by a millimeter, and in theory they cancel out?  Doesn't seem fair. If the umpires make an arbitrary determination of how to even up the boats, that is another kettle of fish completely. It isn't unheard of, in most other sports the starter is responsible for an even start, but that isn't how Yacht Racing is played.

If both boats are over the call should be that both boats have to restart by getting behind the line and recrossing between the starting buoys. If worried about very expensive crunching noises, one could prescribe that they have to go around the ends.  This is consistent with match racing as I have understood it.

It also seems that the pre-start is too abbreviated.  It would be better sport if the boats had to be in the box for 5 minutes instead of 2.  That would require more actual maneuvering and engagement. As it is there is one and only one problem: when to turn for the line.   More time in the small box would complicate things in a good way.

In Race 5, INEOS had more space between themselves and the mark that if they has used might have avoided the second penalty ( windward boat failing to keep clear) but it would have made them even earlier for the start, and they didn't know that JS's sharp luff was going to put them over the line as well.

Early on it seemed that there was plenty of passing, now it seems that winning the first cross is as important as it ever was in the lead mines. Or maybe it's because we are sailing on a course that isn't as blatantly weird as the stadium courses.  In any event, I hope INEOS can stave off elimination another day,

 

SHC

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1 minute ago, efrank said:

For you match racers out there, do you think it was reasonable for BA to think there would be a little room there because Prada was early and would presumably run down the line a little, or should he have anticipated that Prada wouldn't care if they were OCS and would rather pinch up Ineos?  i.e. is it a common move to push your opponent up across the line even if it means you starting early?

No it wasn't reasonable for BA to assume that.

Yes it is common. In that situation JS did it perfectly and was in the best position to "traditionally" restart before the other boat. BA would have "traditionally" had to go around the RC boat, a tack and a gybe to restart, JS would have just dipped. BA got caught in a classic, well known move.

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With speeds so high and split second decisions so hot in that moment, although it may seem unlikely, JS may possibly have actually chosen to force that situation rather than bearing down a touch to cross the line without the OCS. 

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5 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

 If the umpires make an arbitrary determination of how to even up the boats, that is another kettle of fish completely.

 

SHC

They have always been able to do this.

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4 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

It would be better sport if the boats had to be in the box for 5 minutes instead of 2.  That would require more actual maneuvering and engagement. As it is there is one and only one problem: when to turn for the line.   More time in the small box would complicate things in a good way.

I love this idea.  With the exception of race 6, the starts and first cross were the only exciting parts of the race.

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It also doesn't work IMO when one boat gains an advantage (drawing a W/L foul) by choosing to be OCS knowing that penalty will offset because the other boat also being OCS but carrying an additional penalty.  If LR had held its course to cross on time then Ineos has room and doesn't incur a W/L penalty.  Smart by Jimmy and LR to use the rules to their advantage, but very confusing situation.   If both boats had to return to cross the line there would be no issue (and to be fair to Slater LR still would have come out better off I think).

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

With speeds so high and split second decisions so hot in that moment, although it may seem unlikely, JS may possibly have actually chosen to force that situation rather than bearing down a touch to cross the line without the OCS. 

I am absolutely certain he forced the situation, it was a classic MR move, gold.

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