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Having a race like that is why the committee was correct in postponing the race so many times. I think that the race was worth the wait.  Cheers to the Race Committee!

Semi Final Race 1 book is open - hit like for an AM win, dislike for LRPP.  Don’t sit on the fence now!

Please just stick to the facts and not your opinion.  You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how this all works.  The flu is down because of all the hand washing, social distancing, mask wearing,

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4 hours ago, Varan said:

Still, funny how ETNZ B2 resembles Rita more than any other boat, including their own B1. Holroyd got a lot right, just not enough.

or you might say say Holroyd got most of it wrong and so have the Kiwis;)  Guess we'll find out!

 

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2 minutes ago, GBH said:
4 hours ago, Varan said:

Still, funny how ETNZ B2 resembles Rita more than any other boat, including their own B1. Holroyd got a lot right, just not enough.

or you might say say Holroyd got most of it wrong and so have the Kiwis;)  Guess we'll find out!

The hull yes but that's only one aspect. What about the foils, the sails, the control systems and the software etc etc. The high mode on Luna Rossa is what got them the win or the early lead so many times. So yes Luna Rossa had better VMG than their competitors to date. Ben summed it up when he said the age of the team is a huge factor  and that's why Luna Rossa won the Prada Cup, they beat younger teams. ETNZ have been in this game a long long time and that counts for speed.

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Frankly they were behind on everything and playing catchup, rig and sails in particular.  The Ben and Giles show started to fracture under pressure finally as well, and that was something that should have been a key card.   Mind you, a slow boat always makes your decisions look like shit.

If they roll into another challenge then they have to stick BA in much reduced role, but unfortunately thats not his mentality.  Should take a leaf out of  six four's masterclass on how to handle both yourself and a team to get results.

 

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2 hours ago, JJD said:

Oh so now you know what OTAUS budget was?

Oh go suck clarkeys cock, he is the one that thinks he is a bloody accountant Knowing all the team budgets. no one has a fucking clue he just got all over excited when Max was being interviewed and getting asked why they were doing shit and trotted out that INEOS had a 200 mil budget And people accepted it like it was true

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2 hours ago, Navig8tor said:

Bottom line the poms,  the most likeable underdogs didn’t have a boat that would deliver the goods in less than 12 knots.

Poor tradesman blame their tools Basher Ben and Co brought an eyesore of a tank and a lot of excuses to the sparkling Waitemata and guess what the end result was 7-1 against.

Oh we are slow in the light bullshit you got comprehensively schlonged in a range of conditions end of storey.

 

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2 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Poor tradesman blame their tools Basher Ben and Co brought an eyesore of a tank and a lot of excuses to the sparkling Waitemata and guess what the end result was.

Oh we are slow in the light bullshit you got comprehensively schlonged in a range of conditions end of storey.

 

Guess that what happened in San Fran then? 

The comprehensive schlonging.
 

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1603017653190.jpg.cc18535d53fd354a3f918c1e2b255c33.jpg

Prada Cup Final Day 4

So Jimmy and Francesco deliver the coup de grâce to INEOS…

[Ouch]

Painful viewing for us Brits when Ben and the boyz delivered two very good starts too, on this do-or-die (for us) play off. A slow boat never wins the cup, isn’t that so? Lighter air spectrums were simply not BRITANNIAS forte.

Quote of the day Kenny: “They’re getting the defibrillator out for Spithill…”

Though seems Mr. Ratcliffe and Co will muscle in support for INEOSs third time lucky pitch, let’s hope so.

BIG up for ITALIA, and as I may well be back to Campania this spring (fourth year now) I feel obliged to switch my allegiance to the Italians fight.
Seeing Max in the presser… shows how affecting 20 years of hard graft can be for a long cherished result.


Forza Spitelli, Checco and LRPP, high mode let’s go…
 

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So the umpires are being tough on rule 16. That port starboard at the start of race 8 would often have been given in slower boats, but i guess I can see LRPP changed course a little bit to set up the collision course.

I think that is going to kill off a lot of race matching manoeuvres... Eg no point dialing down if you get pinged for 16!

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4 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Glasses can never help that fool Varan out.

AC75_Ineos_RB2_Bow-On_25102020-1024x601.thumb.jpg.6323c3bccefd6d9fff332b6331c72f89.jpg46X5MUOTLZDSBIYNTKZJQOEK2A.thumb.jpg.9457a0d5afb53e2ed51b3093935f561d.jpg

 

In a one on one comparison it is easy to see the differences, but when you add AM and LR into the mix, there are some clear similarities, particularly in the canoe underbody

However, where Ineos always looked ungainly and an incoherent mix of disparate shapes, TR definitely makes sense, both aerodynamically on deck and hydro-dynamically in the shape of the hull to deal with splashdowns as efficiently as possible

In the end I don't think those similarities will be relevant...

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Well us Brits had a little bit of a set back this morning. Well the only way out of this pickle is to have a cup of tea and the full Monty. Done in official yellow.

170 years of solving problems with a cup of tea.

DSCF6621.JPG

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6 hours ago, Tropical Madness said:

LR certainly had plenty of depth in both the main and jib. INEOS was overly flat and clearly short of power. I dont think we seen ETNZ lacking depth in the main...

I suspect that when the history is written about this cup, the fact that the first two boats to exit used traditional booms won’t be just a coincidence.

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2 hours ago, sfigone said:

So the umpires are being tough on rule 16. That port starboard at the start of race 8 would often have been given in slower boats, but i guess I can see LRPP changed course a little bit to set up the collision course.

I think that is going to kill off a lot of race matching manoeuvres... Eg no point dialing down if you get pinged for 16!

If people understand the rules it will kill off nothing.

No umpire is going to give anything other than a green if a boat is altering while flying their 'Y' Flag. On the umpire boat the give way umpire will be saying "altering, altering, altering". Only if the call from the give way umpire changes to "holding" and the give way boat has been given room to keep clear (RRS 16)will the other umpire then say "Penalty on me" if there is a collision course.

I should explain that in match racing each umpire takes a boat and commentates that boat

Hunting has always been illegal and we have now seen Spithill doing it twice (the last cross in the 9 lead change race and now in this start in the last race - you can clearly see the alteration if you watch the horizon). Good call by the umpires ON BOTH occasions. 

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

Well us Brits had a little bit of a set back this morning. Well the only way out of this pickle is to have a cup of tea and the full Monty. Done in official yellow.

170 years of solving problems with a cup of tea.

DSCF6621.JPG

Even black pudding - now that's one thing i miss from Blighty - lucky bugger

 

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7 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

you recon BAR had a bigger budget than Oracle? Wtf. 
not a chance. 

I tend to agree with you JALhazmat. I did hear it said - but am unsure whether it was based on fact or scuttlebutt -  that Larry Ellison spent over US1Bn to win, defend and lose the America's Cup. He's got to spend his cash on something - :-)

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9 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Even black pudding - now that's one thing i miss from Blighty - lucky bugger

 

It is a good one as well as they do vary a bit. When I was in Australia i ordered my black pudding from an English butcher in Melbourne so it can be found out of its natural habitat.

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26 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

If people understand the rules it will kill off nothing.

Hunting has always been illegal and we have now seen Spithill doing it twice (the last cross in the 9 lead change race and now in this start in the last race - you can clearly see the alteration if you watch the horizon). Good call by the umpires ON BOTH occasions. 

I thought hunting was specifically allowed in the Match racing rules (I guess as long as you allow the other boat room to keep clear)?

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1 minute ago, shanghaisailor said:

Over early? Really?

 

Prada Early.jpg

I thought the same. Maybe visual down the line to the outer mark from the RC boat was different from the virtual line. It would be nice to see the photo evidence. 

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2 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Over early? Really?

 

Prada Early.jpg

I thought they were OK too... but presumably the electronics the umpires use is more accurate.

I've read that they use Differential GPS, which improves accuracy from ~15m, to ~3cm !!!

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3 hours ago, sfigone said:

So the umpires are being tough on rule 16. That port starboard at the start of race 8 would often have been given in slower boats, but i guess I can see LRPP changed course a little bit to set up the collision course.

I think that is going to kill off a lot of race matching manoeuvres... Eg no point dialing down if you get pinged for 16!

Rule 16 does not prevent dial downs, hunting or luffs. Rule 16 simply requires that if the give way boat has given you room, then you cannot alter course such as to make it impossible for the give way boat to keep clear. In the start of race 8, Ben had room to tack and keep clear of LR.  As Ineos started to luff into the tack, Jimmy could have luffed to prevent Ben tacking...so that Ben bears away....but Jimmy waited until Ben had passed htw.  The simple take on rule 16 is that ROW boat can alter course as long as there is an "out" for the GW boat.  ROW boat cannot alter course to create a collision that GW boat cannot avaoid.

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1 minute ago, winchfodder said:

I thought hunting was specially allowed in the Match racing rules (I guess as long as you allow the other boat room to keep clear)?

Sorry poor description. However if you continue altering and it results in a collision when they are doing everything they can to keep clear it will be on you.

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2 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

I thought the same. Maybe visual down the line to the outer mark from the RC boat was different from the virtual line. It would be nice to see the photo evidence. 

There have been other instances where the on-the-water graphics were clearly off. For example, boats have gone seemingly well past the on-the-water boundary and not incurred a penalty.  Here, the clock may have been a bit fast. I doubt the umpire crew called a penalty when their machines said there wasn't.

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6 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

I thought hunting was specifically allowed in the Match racing rules (I guess as long as you allow the other boat room to keep clear)?

 

Just now, shanghaisailor said:

Sorry poor description. However if you continue altering and it results in a collision when they are doing everything they can to keep clear it will be on you.

True in both match racing,team racing and fleet racing. ROW boat can alter course as much as they like to force GW boat to alter course as long as they leave an out for the GW boat.

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CONGRATS to Luna Rossa

(As an Ineos supporter.) I can genuinely say that to LR that you have the better platform and superb sailing. You were the team that deserved to go forward. Congratulations and Good Luck.

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7 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Rule 16 does not prevent dial downs, hunting or luffs. Rule 16 simply requires that if the give way boat has given you room, then you cannot alter course such as to make it impossible for the give way boat to keep clear. In the start of race 8, Ben had room to tack and keep clear of LR.  As Ineos started to luff into the tack, Jimmy could have luffed to prevent Ben tacking...so that Ben bears away....but Jimmy waited until Ben had passed htw.  The simple take on rule 16 is that ROW boat can alter course as long as there is an "out" for the GW boat.  ROW boat cannot alter course to create a collision that GW boat cannot avaoid.

Good explanation, thanks.

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13 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

I thought they were OK too... but presumably the electronics the umpires use is more accurate.

I've read that they use Differential GPS, which improves accuracy from ~15m, to ~3cm !!!

The only explanation  is that che chronometer seen on TV was not exactly synchronised

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2 minutes ago, strider470 said:

The only explanation  is that che chronometer seen on TV was not exactly synchronised

You're probably right.  It would only need to be off by a couple of tenths of a second I'd guess.

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23 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Rule 16 does not prevent dial downs, hunting or luffs. Rule 16 simply requires that if the give way boat has given you room, then you cannot alter course such as to make it impossible for the give way boat to keep clear. In the start of race 8, Ben had room to tack and keep clear of LR.  As Ineos started to luff into the tack, Jimmy could have luffed to prevent Ben tacking...so that Ben bears away....but Jimmy waited until Ben had passed htw.  The simple take on rule 16 is that ROW boat can alter course as long as there is an "out" for the GW boat.  ROW boat cannot alter course to create a collision that GW boat cannot avaoid.

Sort of tacking in his water though. Like race 5 when Ben was in an a totally losing position potentially forced above the starting mark, so he just barged in. Then in this race, race eight, he was early heading way out beyond the line into potential oblivion, so he just tacked onto port in front of LR. Again I think he was lucky not to be penalised. 

Seems Ben likes to use his Olympic Gold reputation to muscle out and intimidate the opposition. Most times it works with lesser sailors.

I think in this case Jimmy was not too stressed as he did not want to get into arguments or damage as he had a faster boat and wanted to be in one piece to face ETNZ.

 

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1 minute ago, MaxHugen said:

You're probably right.  It would only need to be off by a couple of tenths of a second I'd guess.

Jimmy was so calm that he was probably following the race on YouTube,  hence the misjudgement

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Well I think it's finally time for Shirley to quit referring to BA as "the most competitive sailor out there"

Jimmy and Ceccho have been amazing this regatta, these guys are truly fierce competitors.

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2 minutes ago, NZK said:

Well I think it's finally time for Shirley to quit referring to BA as "the most competitive sailor out there"

Jimmy and Ceccho have been amazing this regatta, these guys are truly fierce competitors.

True. Got a bit much at times, IMO.

Checco, the Pit Bull, and lately Pietro as well,  have melded into quite a formidable team.

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11 minutes ago, NZK said:

Well I think it's finally time for Shirley to quit referring to BA as "the most competitive sailor out there"

Jimmy and Ceccho have been amazing this regatta, these guys are truly fierce competitors.

I must say I have had enough now of the repetitive cliche ridden commentaries and would happily mute if I could still get the onboard feed from both boats.

Shirley has some good scripts and clearly does her homework before going in front of the camera (i believe she actually writes most of her own) in getting some really neat and pithy comments before and during the races. However she does get very repetitive.

Ken is just lazy and repetitive. As a millionaire CEO he is just there for the fun and to avoid going to the office for months at a time (though no doubt does plenty of networking etc). Lucky chap.

I do hope they take some of the feedback onboard and get sorted by the Match. If I hear the same old cliche ridden commentary for another seven, even maybe more, races I will explode.

 

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17 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

True. Got a bit much at times, IMO.

Checco, the Pit Bull, and lately Pietro as well,  have melded into quite a formidable team.

Agreed. It seems an unpopular opinion here but I think Jimmy has out-performed BA in every aspect of this regatta, on the water and how he's conducted himself in interviews/press conferences.

The combo of him, Checco and Sibello looks to be quite formidable. 

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7 hours ago, Navig8tor said:

Bottom line the poms,  the most likeable underdogs didn’t have a boat that would deliver the goods in less than 12 knots.

Yes, what is sad however is that we did not really windy races.

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8 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

I do hope they take some of the feedback onboard and get sorted by the Match. If I hear the same old cliche ridden commentary for another seven, even maybe more, races I will explode.

If the racing isn't close like almost all races have been so far they wont have much to talk about after the start.  Talking to fill dead air space cant be enjoyable.   The races have been better to watch as a replay with 2X playback speed initiated shortly after the start.

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20 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

I must say I have had enough now of the repetitive cliche ridden commentaries and would happily mute if I could still get the onboard feed from both boats.

Shirley has some good scripts and clearly does her homework before going in front of the camera (i believe she actually writes most of her own) in getting some really neat and pithy comments before and during the races. However she does get very repetitive.

Ken is just lazy and repetitive. As a millionaire CEO he is just there for the fun and to avoid going to the office for months at a time (though no doubt does plenty of networking etc). Lucky chap.

I do hope they take some of the feedback onboard and get sorted by the Match. If I hear the same old cliche ridden commentary for another seven, even maybe more, races I will explode.

 

And even Shirley was insufferable much of the time, less comment more an extended bj on the air for BA...

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10 hours ago, minimumfuss said:

Although Slater sounded taken aback at being taken to task by KR, seems correct. as LR didn't hold course on starboard. Kenny tried to argue they were entitled to turn up to start, but shot themselves in the foot by being OCS, negating that argument. 

So just like the other day, LR had to hit Ineos to maintain right of way?

 

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Rule 16 does not prevent dial downs, hunting or luffs. Rule 16 simply requires that if the give way boat has given you room, then you cannot alter course such as to make it impossible for the give way boat to keep clear. In the start of race 8, Ben had room to tack and keep clear of LR.  As Ineos started to luff into the tack, Jimmy could have luffed to prevent Ben tacking...so that Ben bears away....but Jimmy waited until Ben had passed htw.  The simple take on rule 16 is that ROW boat can alter course as long as there is an "out" for the GW boat.  ROW boat cannot alter course to create a collision that GW boat cannot avaoid.

At the speeds they are going, that is dangerous and insane.  There was no out for LR except to go over early, hit the left hand mark, or hit Ineos.  And if LR had hit Ineos, who would have been judged in the wrong? Especially if God forbid there had to be an inquest?  Who knows how fast Ineos could accelerate out of of their maneuver?   If these are the rules, this is macho, suicidal bullshit.  If BA knew this, and exploited it, he is a psychopath. But maybe that’s the AC?  Big tough rich boys with big tough expensive & dangerous toys?  If that’s the case, they should be racing Moths with owner/drivers.  
 

When I saw LR’s bow wiggle when BA went into his maneuver, there have been some hunting, but it seems to me there was a lot of ‘holy shit, what the fuck is BA doing?’   Like the barging incident, and LR fell off their foils in that one, essentially out of control. These are not easily controlled boats, especially in quick unforeseen circumstance.

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1 hour ago, Physalia said:

And even Shirley was insufferable much of the time, less comment more an extended bj on the air for BA...

Would you say the same for Goodi's repeated mentions of BIG Mr Brittel?

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1 hour ago, winchfodder said:

I must say I have had enough now of the repetitive cliche ridden commentaries and would happily mute if I could still get the onboard feed from both boats.

Shirley has some good scripts and clearly does her homework before going in front of the camera (i believe she actually writes most of her own) in getting some really neat and pithy comments before and during the races. However she does get very repetitive.

Ken is just lazy and repetitive. As a millionaire CEO he is just there for the fun and to avoid going to the office for months at a time (though no doubt does plenty of networking etc). Lucky chap.

I do hope they take some of the feedback onboard and get sorted by the Match. If I hear the same old cliche ridden commentary for another seven, even maybe more, races I will explode.

 

Agreed, it would be great if you could mute certain commentators, I’d just keep Goody & Nathan

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40 minutes ago, Amati said:

At the speeds they are going, that is dangerous and insane.  There was no out for LR except to go over early, hit the left hand mark, or hit Ineos.  And if LR had hit Ineos, who would have been judged in the wrong? Especially if God forbid there had to be an inquest?  Who knows how fast Ineos could accelerate out of of their maneuver?   If these are the rules, this is macho, suicidal bullshit.  If BA knew this, and exploited it, he is a psychopath. But maybe that’s the AC?  Big tough rich Boys with big tough expensive & dangerous toys?

I dont fully understand your point. Rule 16 is designed to make racing safer.  It prevents the ROW (Right of Way ) boat suddenly altering course and hitting the KC (Keep Clear) boat when the keep clear boat was keeping clear.

From the judges perspective here is what they see (rightly of wrongly)

1.  Ineos and LR heading towards the line.  LR is clear astern and must keep clear of Ineos who is clear ahead. Ineos has enough room to tack provided that LR does not alter course. 

2. Ineos commences to tack and provided LR does not alter course, there is room for Ineos to complete their tack and sail off on port. 

3. But LR luffs (continues to luff)  after Ineos has started to tack.  LR has created a risk of collision. There is nothing that Ineos can do at this stage to avoid the risk of collision created by LR.

4. LR's course alteration to windward provides no opportunity for Ineos to keep clear and avoid a collision.   Rule 16 says that LR must not alter course to prevent Ineos from keeping clear. LR's course alteration prevented Ineos from keeping clear, who was previously keeping clear.

5. LR corrects their luff by bearing away and allowing Ineos to fufill their obligation to keep clear. Thus no rules broken.

It would be very different if LR had completed their luff before Ineos started to tack.....then LR would have shut the door and there would be no room to tack.  

The judgement call for Jimmy was to stop luffing as soon as Ineos reached HTW, then Ineos would have broken 13 and LR would not have broken 16. 

IMHO....it was a close call but judges felt that if Jimmy had not luffed there was not a risk of collision.

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12 minutes ago, 45Roller said:

Agreed, it would be great if you could mute certain commentators, I’d just keep Goody & Nathan

You could add Matt Sheahan? 

He asks intelligent questions, then shuts up and lets his interviewee answer without interruption...

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19 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

I dont fully understand your point. Rule 16 is designed to make racing safer.  It prevents the ROW (Right of Way ) boat suddenly altering course and hitting the KC (Keep Clear) boat when the keep clear boat was keeping clear.

From the judges perspective here is what they see (rightly of wrongly)

1.  Ineos and LR heading towards the line.  LR is clear astern and must keep clear of Ineos who is clear ahead. Ineos has enough room to tack provided that LR does not alter course. 

2. Ineos commences to tack and provided LR does not alter course, there is room for Ineos to complete their tack and sail off on port. 

3. But LR luffs (continues to luff)  after Ineos has started to tack.  LR has created a risk of collision. There is nothing that Ineos can do at this stage to avoid the risk of collision created by LR.

4. LR's course alteration to windward provides no opportunity for Ineos to keep clear and avoid a collision.   Rule 16 says that LR must not alter course to prevent Ineos from keeping clear. LR's course alteration prevented Ineos from keeping clear, who was previously keeping clear.

5. LR corrects their luff by bearing away and allowing Ineos to fufill their obligation to keep clear. Thus no rules broken.

It would be very different if LR had completed their luff before Ineos started to tack.....then LR would have shut the door and there would be no room to tack.  

The judgement call for Jimmy was to stop luffing as soon as Ineos reached HTW, then Ineos would have broken 13 and LR would not have broken 16. 

My point is that how many seconds did LR have to accomplish all that, under control?  The crews usually have a countdown of ~ three seconds for manouvers, and Ineos looked to be struggling coming out of theirs.  (As an example, slalom windsurfing starts at the Gorge come to mind.). How do you measure a luff in these boats?  When they fall off their foils?  I didn’t see any sails luffing.  If Ineos had fallen off their foils during the tack, what then?  And it wasn’t a normal tack, since they fell off immediately to keep behind the line, which is why, to my eye at least, they came out of the tack slowly, with their sails stalled.

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11 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

You could add Matt Sheahan? 

He asks intelligent questions, then shuts up and lets his interviewee answer without interruption...

Nice, yeah I need to give him a listen 

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11 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

So what campaigns (plural) has he had the biggest budget? 
 

guessing Covid protocols not being bothered about now then looking at a Prada celebrations.

You are arguing with the village idiot.  

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7 minutes ago, 45Roller said:

Nice, yeah I need to give him a listen 

Most of his AC interviews have been posted here, but to save having to wade through many hundreds of posts, you'll find them at his YT channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5mNKsJ9SEPXaZDfeJknLOw

Many are quite interesting. :)

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Here is some footage from Luna Rossa's secret training camp,  no wonder they won!  As Jimmy said when they crossed the line: Dai fucking cazzo!  (he can speak Italian!)

 

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2 hours ago, Physalia said:

And even Shirley was insufferable much of the time, less comment more an extended bj on the air for BA...

Charmless and unnecessary. You know her husband has been known to post on SAAC? How would you like to read a remark like that about someone you loved?

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3 hours ago, NZK said:

Well I think it's finally time for Shirley to quit referring to BA as "the most competitive sailor out there"

Jimmy and Ceccho have been amazing this regatta, these guys are truly fierce competitors.

I really like how during the prestarts FB sets up the strategy of where they are going and when they turn back, and then hands over to JS to execute the tactical details of the approach... all with PS giving extra info when needed plus looking up the course.

Also really good how they are so calm, even when the Brits were getting the better of it, they just keep sailing, keep positive and look & sound really solid.... other than the occasional simultaneous 3, 2,1 calls, but at least they count mostly together.

 

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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Rule 16 does not prevent dial downs, hunting or luffs. Rule 16 simply requires that if the give way boat has given you room, then you cannot alter course such as to make it impossible for the give way boat to keep clear. In the start of race 8, Ben had room to tack and keep clear of LR.  As Ineos started to luff into the tack, Jimmy could have luffed to prevent Ben tacking...so that Ben bears away....but Jimmy waited until Ben had passed htw.  The simple take on rule 16 is that ROW boat can alter course as long as there is an "out" for the GW boat.  ROW boat cannot alter course to create a collision that GW boat cannot avaoid.

Nice explanation.

So in a dial down the boat on port can bear away and in a leeward luff the windward boat can also luff.  But on a port-starboard cross there comes a time when the port boat has no option but to continue across, as if the ROW boat comes up after that they can only avoid a collision by teleportation. 

thanks!

 

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11 hours ago, Forourselves said:

How does this:

BYS7FW6N26NXQUIQAJXN6K3I3Y.jpg

Look like this?

AC75_Ineos_RB2_1st_Sail_23102020.jpg

Some people seriously need glasses.

Perhaps I read too much. I was thinking about the what Dave Hollom wrote in the February issue of Seahorse when comparing the B2s...

First impressions of the Cup Defender's second boat are that her design thinking is actually quite similar to Britannia but with all the edges rounded off...

But it is true that I need new glasses. Sorry for the distraction, but I did like the seagull video, the official bird of this America's Cup.

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

I dont fully understand your point. Rule 16 is designed to make racing safer.  It prevents the ROW (Right of Way ) boat suddenly altering course and hitting the KC (Keep Clear) boat when the keep clear boat was keeping clear.

From the judges perspective here is what they see (rightly of wrongly)

1.  Ineos and LR heading towards the line.  LR is clear astern and must keep clear of Ineos who is clear ahead. Ineos has enough room to tack provided that LR does not alter course. 

2. Ineos commences to tack and provided LR does not alter course, there is room for Ineos to complete their tack and sail off on port. 

3. But LR luffs (continues to luff)  after Ineos has started to tack.  LR has created a risk of collision. There is nothing that Ineos can do at this stage to avoid the risk of collision created by LR.

4. LR's course alteration to windward provides no opportunity for Ineos to keep clear and avoid a collision.   Rule 16 says that LR must not alter course to prevent Ineos from keeping clear. LR's course alteration prevented Ineos from keeping clear, who was previously keeping clear.

5. LR corrects their luff by bearing away and allowing Ineos to fufill their obligation to keep clear. Thus no rules broken.

It would be very different if LR had completed their luff before Ineos started to tack.....then LR would have shut the door and there would be no room to tack.  

The judgement call for Jimmy was to stop luffing as soon as Ineos reached HTW, then Ineos would have broken 13 and LR would not have broken 16. 

IMHO....it was a close call but judges felt that if Jimmy had not luffed there was not a risk of collision.

Also: depending how one interprets #4, LR could have been coming up to cut behind Ineos if the tack had been a normal tack, instead of a sluggish tack.  As it was, LR had to bear off, avoiding a boat on port tack.  I also didn’t see Ineos doing anything to keep clear.  So the safety of the rule was maintained, even with Ineos slightly out of control.  Granted, ‘good seamanship’ is still a moving target with these boats.  I still don’t see where LR did anything to keep Ineos from keeping clear, and neither did BA, apparently, since he went ahead with and finished the tack without any (what to call it?) evasive maneuvers. I still don’t understand how you complete a luff in one of these boats.  The judgement call was in a window of how many seconds?  And HTW lasts how long? 1 second?  And how do you define enough room to tack with these boats?  Ineos room or LR room?  Was there any risk of collision?  Defined by the barging incident, no.

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1 minute ago, sfigone said:

Nice explanation.

So in a dial down the boat on port can bear away  Yes. The starboard boat can try and force the port boat to bear away (even gybe) but must always only alter course if the port boat can alter course to keep clear.  It gets tricky at times.

 

and in a leeward luff the windward boat can also luff. If there is immediate contact, the windward boat was not keeping clear in the first place,but yesthe luff should be controlled so that W has room to respond to the luff

  But on a port-starboard cross there comes a time when the port boat has no option but to continue across, as if the ROW boat comes up after that they can only avoid a collision by teleportation. Yes.  As long as P is crossing S, P can cross. If s alters course to make it impossible for p to cross but does it early enough that P can duck or tack then all good.....if teleportation is the only option then S has broken 16

thanks!

 

 

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29 minutes ago, sfigone said:

Here is some footage from Luna Rossa's secret training camp,  no wonder they won!  As Jimmy said when they crossed the line: Dai fucking cazzo!  (he can speak Italian!)

 

Looks like great fun. 

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15 minutes ago, sfigone said:

I really like how during the prestarts FB sets up the strategy of where they are going and when they turn back, and then hands over to JS to execute the tactical details of the approach... all with PS giving extra info when needed plus looking up the course.

Also really good how they are so calm, even when the Brits were getting the better of it, they just keep sailing, keep positive and look & sound really solid.... other than the occasional simultaneous 3, 2,1 calls, but at least they count mostly together.

 

That’s what struck me throughout, the containment of the emotions, the shared management of the pressure and the strong determination aboard LR. It makes one wonder if there wasn’t an element of sandbagging in the earlier rounds. Then again, they clearly made more mistakes so there is truth to Jimmy’s point that they needed the race practice. 

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10 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

 

It appears this rule depends somewhat on the goodwill of both helms.  This doesn’t always occur.  That Spithill comes off as goodwill hunting is telling.

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3 hours ago, winchfodder said:

Sort of tacking in his water though. Like race 5 when Ben was in an a totally losing position potentially forced above the starting mark, so he just barged in. Then in this race, race eight, he was early heading way out beyond the line into potential oblivion, so he just tacked onto port in front of LR. Again I think he was lucky not to be penalised. 

Seems Ben likes to use his Olympic Gold reputation to muscle out and intimidate the opposition. Most times it works with lesser sailors.

I think in this case Jimmy was not too stressed as he did not want to get into arguments or damage as he had a faster boat and wanted to be in one piece to face ETNZ.

 

Reminds me of Peter Burling in Bermuda. Ken and company constantly telling us how JS was going to eat him alive at the starts....... never happened. 
 

If you’ve confidence in your boat and crew then you don’t have to be aggressive at the starts. I did worry that there might have been a collision and that would be a disaster for all concerned. 

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4 minutes ago, Paddywackery said:

 It makes one wonder if there wasn’t an element of sandbagging in the earlier rounds. Then again, they clearly made more mistakes so there is truth to Jimmy’s point that they needed the race practice. 

On Italian TV, it’s widely hinted this was wily Max’s intentional strategy

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Knowing that Prada had an advantage in the light conditions, wouldn't it have been better for spectators, and the event in general I guess, to hold more of the races in the more shifty courses to give INEOS a fighting chance? 

Also, I know a lot has been said about the excitement of watching these boats sail at 30-50 knots, but, in the semi final at least, there hasn't been a whole lot of racing has there? The last two races I watched the start and ff them to the end to watch the interviews. There was little real engagement in the pre-starts, except when INEOS was desperate, and close to no real action and no options for trying something during the race. Is it really that much more entertaining to watch two boats complete a course aseptically at 30-50 knots than two IACC boats at much slower speeds but sometimes finishing seconds off each other and with  more strategies available to them to try and catch up? 

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4 hours ago, winchfodder said:

Sort of tacking in his water though. Like race 5 when Ben was in an a totally losing position potentially forced above the starting mark, so he just barged in. Then in this race, race eight, he was early heading way out beyond the line into potential oblivion, so he just tacked onto port in front of LR. Again I think he was lucky not to be penalised. 

Seems Ben likes to use his Olympic Gold reputation to muscle out and intimidate the opposition. Most times it works with lesser sailors.

 

 

And the refs, apparently....

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1 hour ago, MaxHugen said:

You could add Matt Sheahan? 

He asks intelligent questions, then shuts up and lets his interviewee answer without interruption...

So does Shirley when interviewing. Her podcast is excellent. I don't think commentating is an easy job.

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7 minutes ago, Xlot said:

On Italian TV, it’s widely hinted this was wily Max’s intentional strategy

Interesting. I found Max to be most impressive in all his interviews and very knowledgeable. 

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3 minutes ago, Amati said:

Also: depending how one interprets #4, LR could have been coming up to cut behind Ineos if the tack had been a normal tack, instead of a sluggish tack.  As it was, LR had to bear off, avoiding a boat on port tack.  I also didn’t see Ineos doing anything to keep clear.  So the safety of the rule was maintained, even with Ineos slightly out of control.  Granted, ‘good seamanship’ is still a moving target with these boats.  I still don’t see where LR did anything to keep Ineos from keeping clear, and neither did BA, apparently, since he went ahead with and finished the tack without any (what to call it?) evasive maneuvers. I still don’t understand how you complete a luff in one of these boats.  The judgement call was in a window of how many seconds?  And HTW lasts how long? 1 second?  And how do you define enough room to tack with these boats?  Ineos room or LR room?  Was there any risk of collision?  Defined by the barging incident, no.

 

9 minutes ago, Amati said:

It appears this rule depends somewhat on the goodwill of both helms.  This doesn’t always occur.  That Spithill comes off as goodwill hunting is telling.

Jimmy has nothing to lose by last second altering course to try and create port starboard instance and then bearing away and hailing "protest".

He did it in the round robin. He cannot lose the protest because by bearing away he complies with 16 and leaves the judges to try and decide if P was given room to keep clear. Jimmy did it in the RR series downwind as well (Kenny called it a "Hollywood") . No goodwill just split second tactics.

It was close.  I think that Jimmy continued to alter course after Ineos reached HTW  but it was close.  Judges called it. They were there.

Rule 16 exists in everyday club racing to prevent collisions.

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13 minutes ago, DLT said:

Knowing that Prada had an advantage in the light conditions, wouldn't it have been better for spectators, and the event in general I guess, to hold more of the races in the more shifty courses to give INEOS a fighting chance? 
 

If the race committee starts picking courses and/or conditions to favour one boat over the other, then that's the end of the sporting event.  You may as well watch World Championship Wresting.

If the wind is within the agreed range, then the race must go on.  It's not the events fault that one competitor turned up with a boat unsuitable for all the likely conditions for this time of year.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, sfigone said:

If the race committee starts picking courses and/or conditions to favour one boat over the other, then that's the end of the sporting event.  You may as well watch World Championship Wresting.

If the wind is within the agreed range, then the race must go on.  It's not the events fault that one competitor turned up with a boat unsuitable for all the likely conditions for this time of year.

 

 

 

Come on, I think you know what I mean. I think it's in the best interest of the event, and the sport of sailing in general, to have better racing. Having said that, I'm talking from the POV of a remote viewer that gets most of his information from the commentators and they were saying the most straightforward course was being chosen. Why not at least try and make it more interesting, mind you, without favoring anyone, by mixing it up a little? 

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29 minutes ago, DLT said:

Knowing that Prada had an advantage in the light conditions, wouldn't it have been better for spectators, and the event in general I guess, to hold more of the races in the more shifty courses to give INEOS a fighting chance?

I take it you meant that as a joke?

They could also have upped the lower wind speed to 13+ knots, to better suit Ineos?  :wacko:

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8 minutes ago, DLT said:

Come on, I think you know what I mean. I think it's in the best interest of the event, and the sport of sailing in general, to have better racing. Having said that, I'm talking from the POV of a remote viewer that gets most of his information from the commentators and they were saying the most straightforward course was being chosen. Why not at least try and make it more interesting, mind you, without favoring anyone, by mixing it up a little? 

"Making it more interesting" by definition is favouring one boat over another no?

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1 minute ago, MaxHugen said:

I take it you meant that as a joke?

They could also have upped the lower wind speed to 13+ knots, to better suit Ineos?  :wacko:

Notice I said "more shifty", not "stronger", so no, I'm not implying that a team should have been helped out of a hole by not sailing on light wind days, but to choose a course that would offer more  in terms of possibilities. 

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Just now, Jean-Baptiste said:

"Making it more interesting" by definition is favouring one boat over another no?

No, it's just choosing a course that potentially could offer better racing.  

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3 minutes ago, DLT said:

Come on, I think you know what I mean. I think it's in the best interest of the event, and the sport of sailing in general, to have better racing. Having said that, I'm talking from the POV of a remote viewer that gets most of his information from the commentators and they were saying the most straightforward course was being chosen. Why not at least try and make it more interesting, mind you, without favoring anyone, by mixing it up a little? 

This has to be seen as a fair competition. The winner demonstrated that they had a faster boat in a wider range of conditions with superb execution by the team. Trying to level that playing field by going to a shiftier course or waiting for windier conditions might have made for better spectating (and I totally get where you are coming from) would have diminished it from a true sporting event to a managed for spectator event.

I am an Ineos supporter and I think the better team emerged from the Challenger series. Congrats and good luck.

 

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3 minutes ago, DLT said:

No, it's just choosing a course that potentially could offer better racing.  

Who defines "better"? Could choosing the course also potentially offer worse racing or an unfair advantage?

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2 minutes ago, DLT said:

Notice I said "more shifty", not "stronger", so no, I'm not implying that a team should have been helped out of a hole by not sailing on light wind days, but to choose a course that would offer more  in terms of possibilities. 

Totally get where you are coming from. Shiftier might have allowed the Ainslie/Giles talents to pull a rabbit out of the hat in a race or two. Good for spectators. But I think the right result was obtained,.  Sadly. But hats off to the Italians.

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Just now, EYESAILOR said:

This has to be seen as a fair competition. The winner demonstrated that they had a faster boat in a wider range of conditions with superb execution by the team. Trying to level that playing field by going to a shiftier course or waiting for windier conditions might have made for better spectating (and I totally get where you are coming from) would have diminished it from a true sporting event to a managed for spectator event.

I am an Ineos supporter and I think the better team emerged from the Challenger series. Congrats and good luck.

 

But one could counter-argue and ask why did they mostly chose a course that favored pure boat speed when it was light when they knew PRADA had an advantage in those conditions? By the way, not a fan of either INEOS or PRADA, just one of you guys hoping for better races and entertainment. 

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