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19 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

He was pissed. Ungracious in defeat. He was soundly beaten by a better team. He is not a good loser. 

I dont see that, and where does this idea of being a good loser come from anyway? He is a man that has spent 4 years of his life doing this AC, responsible for 100 million plus down the tubes so thats thard for anyone to handle. I dont feel sorry for him, he's a professional after all but he is also a human and to be treated disrespectfully by the handbags, if he didnt show a few hard edges Id be very surprised. Moreover the difference between these boats is not much but amplified by the speed, so soundly beaten on paper but in reality every race could have gone the other way if there had been fractional differences. Crew work on Ineos was solid and if the breeze was up it may have been different. Its all over now so we move on but credit where credit is due.

 

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Having a race like that is why the committee was correct in postponing the race so many times. I think that the race was worth the wait.  Cheers to the Race Committee!

Semi Final Race 1 book is open - hit like for an AM win, dislike for LRPP.  Don’t sit on the fence now!

Please just stick to the facts and not your opinion.  You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how this all works.  The flu is down because of all the hand washing, social distancing, mask wearing,

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10 minutes ago, winchfodder said:
  3 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

Why would you want to go to the press conference after being smashed ! 

Don't turn up drunk and aggressive. Yes, thank all your supporters and sponsors, but also be gracious in defeat and acknowledge the achievements of the winning team.

He bitched at the kiwis over the FCS, he then bitched at the Prada protests he’s hardly been a shining eg 

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35 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

He was pissed and angry,  all the last four years pressure and the humiliation out on the race course on the day. He hates to lose, that's how you win gold medals. 

May be, when you're on a one handed or two handed class with non design involved. This is the AC, a TEAM competition between NATIONS. Acting as a high school bully will never get you anywhere. 

21 minutes ago, Paddywackery said:

He has handled himself well given that he’s now had 2 well funded attempts at the AC which promised much but delivered zero. That has to weigh on his mind and yet, despite the enormous disappointment, he has remained gracious in defeat  in front of the cameras.

 

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4 minutes ago, toad said:

Moreover the difference between these boats is not much but amplified by the speed, so soundly beaten on paper but in reality every race could have gone the other way if there had been fractional differences.

 

In light wind, going upwind, the difference in speed / angle was indeed huge.

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I posted on Cunt of the Week which went to Ben. Imagine what would happen if someone called  "Sir Jim" unsportsmanlike and lacking integrity? You would have that idiot Freddy Carr charging through the Viaduct looking for a parking space. Nah Ben is a cunt, end of

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20 hours ago, marlowe said:

Now we know why INEOS needed a solid boom.

Screen_Shot_2021-02-21_at_11_45_57.png

To hit their arses on the way out?

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12 minutes ago, toad said:

I dont see that, and where does this idea of being a good loser come from anyway? He is a man that has spent 4 years of his life doing this AC, responsible for 100 million plus down the tubes so thats thard for anyone to handle. I dont feel sorry for him, he's a professional after all but he is also a human and to be treated disrespectfully by the handbags, if he didnt show a few hard edges Id be very surprised. Moreover the difference between these boats is not much but amplified by the speed, so soundly beaten on paper but in reality every race could have gone the other way if there had been fractional differences. Crew work on Ineos was solid and if the breeze was up it may have been different. Its all over now so we move on but credit where credit is due.

 

I have bolded the bit that you used to turn this into a logical fallacy lol

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1 minute ago, Nutta said:

To hit their arses on the way out?

Hey least they are guaranteed to earn outrageous sums of money for quite awhile. ETNZ does not have that luxury. Wonder how the bidding is going....

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I can’t speak to what happens beyond the cameras but somebody will in due course and we might learn more. 
 

Having a pop after a few beers in a public arena is not smart and can suggest the sore loser narrative he attracts. 

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4 minutes ago, Nutta said:

To hit their arses on the way out?

 

Just now, veritas said:

Hey least they are guaranteed to earn outrageous sums of money for quite awhile. ETNZ does not have that luxury. Wonder how the bidding is going....

It was a very good line though from @Nutta very old school. Is that saying still used around here?

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34 minutes ago, sfigone said:

 

Oh I missed this one: https://www.livesaildie.com/claim-of-non-compliance-against-luna-rossa/

So Ineos are learning how to play the game and trying to question the other boats compliance with the regs.  I think good on them, but I do expect all the LRPP haters to now pile on and say how unsporting that was.. just as they did when LRPP protested the compliance of Ineos.

As for the substance... and think one of the few aspects of LRPP that relates to us everyday sailors is seeing the flailing arms of the head sail trimmers as they get the sheet off the winch during a tack.  Makes me smile every time!   If only they could drape a kite over a foredeckie so they could do a ghost impression :)

 

 

Bit late now.

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Just now, Paddywackery said:

Both AM and INEOS staying until the end of the AC. Post Prada Cup holiday to watch the teams that beat you?

Why wouldn't you? Logistics for moving back would be set until after the cup, you can carry on working on the next campaign and enjoy the kiwi hospitality.

 

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Just now, Paddywackery said:

Both AM and INEOS staying until the end of the AC. Post Prada Cup holiday to watch the teams that beat you?

Well they can film and watch how to do it properly I guess......we should stop fucking around and just send men to the Moon maybe?

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15 hours ago, DLT said:

No, it's just choosing a course that potentially could offer better racing.  

Better racing by your definition = favoring the slower boat by injecting a random element

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3 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

Why wouldn't you? Logistics for moving back would be set until after the cup, you can carry on working on the next campaign and enjoy the kiwi hospitality.

 

Plus the contracts would be in place until then and as you note, no better way of seeing developments than up close and personal.

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1 hour ago, not from this world said:

Long time mate, hope you are well.

I can completely understand your bias here, but I think you are not being fair to Ken. That is unusual for you.

Sure their backgrounds are chalk and cheese, but they are both accomplished in their chosen disciplines within the sport.

TA

Sure but that wasn't the point from Daniel I was replying to, which was how they might each get on at a Moth Worlds. His hypothesis, not mine. I'd find it hard to argue in response that being ever so good at sailing J24s prepares you much for a Moth. Europes, that's closer.

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4 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

Why wouldn't you? Logistics for moving back would be set until after the cup, you can carry on working on the next campaign and enjoy the kiwi hospitality.

 

Yes, accommodation paid, have some relaxing down time and watch what they’ve missed out on. 

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20 hours ago, porthos said:

There have been other instances where the on-the-water graphics were clearly off. For example, boats have gone seemingly well past the on-the-water boundary and not incurred a penalty.  Here, the clock may have been a bit fast. I doubt the umpire crew called a penalty when their machines said there wasn't.

When you here Giles counting down the timer it is never in agreement with the TV graphics timer.,

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I still remember when someone said Checco Bruni was disrespectful when answering "pretty nothing" at the question if he was willing to steal something from Ineo's boat. As it seems, the only possibility left for Italians is not to speak at all :D

tre-scimmiette.jpg.52cb95708d524784fec6dc00616242f5.jpg

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3 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Sure but that wasn't the point from Daniel I was replying to, which was how they might each get on at a Moth Worlds. His hypothesis, not mine. I'd find it hard to argue in response that being ever so good at sailing J24s prepares you much for a Moth. Europes, that's closer.

Ah, my bad, sorry.

Good sailors are good sailors at the end of the day. I think it is a silly argument really.

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18 minutes ago, Paddywackery said:

Both AM and INEOS staying until the end of the AC. Post Prada Cup holiday to watch the teams that beat you?

Beyond the reasons already mentioned: stay a month longer in relatively normal and healthy New Zealand summer, or return to freezing UK in pandemic lockdown...

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3 minutes ago, not from this world said:

Ah, my bad, sorry.

Good sailors are good sailors at the end of the day. I think it is a silly argument really.

About 99.9% of arguments around here are silly

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1 hour ago, Paddywackery said:

I feel the Francesco ‘There is no second’ was an ill considered and poorly judged attempt at humour. INEOS have ‘there is no second’ as one of their key marketing slogans, which in itself seems silly. 
 

 

You know there is a historical reference there, right?

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3 minutes ago, Paddywackery said:

Happy to be enlightened. 

It comes from this:

Quote

On 22 August 1851, America raced against 15 yachts of the Royal Yacht Squadron in the Club's annual 53-nautical-mile (98 km) regatta around the Isle of Wight. America won, finishing 8 minutes ahead of the closest rival. Apocryphally, Queen Victoria, who was watching at the finish line, was reported to have asked who was second, the famous answer being: "Ah, Your Majesty, there is no second."[13]

(which you can find on wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Cup)

Theres levels of doubt around the "accuracy" of that statement, but "there is no second" has been a colloquial part of Cup lore for a long time.

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11 minutes ago, Paddywackery said:

Happy to be enlightened. 

"Sails billowing, the yacht under scrutiny and as yet unidentified, carved a graceful arc through the water of the Solent, rounded the last mark and slid silently and triumphantly towards Cowes and her place in history.

At that moment the Queen, with that innate sense of portent fate bequeaths upon its leaders, leaned forward and whispered quietly in the ear of the Marquis of Anglesey who sat at her right, ‘Who is it in first place, my lord?’

In a halting voice the Marquis replied, ‘I'm sorry to report, Madam, it seems it is the yacht America.’

‘The yacht America’ asked the Queen, ‘Then who is in second?’ The Marquis, in a restrained voice filled with that profound respect an English gentleman reserves for his Queen, answered softly, ‘Madam, there is no second."

 

https://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Madam-there-is-no-second/-17730?source=google

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25 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

Beyond the reasons already mentioned: stay a month longer in relatively normal and healthy New Zealand summer, or return to freezing UK in pandemic lockdown...

On they other hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooM-RGUTe2E

Not so very freezing either. Birds are starting to sing like they think spring is coming and keep inspecting our nest boxes.

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1 hour ago, sfigone said:

I get why he might be disappointed, but why pissed and angry?   

He was in a fair fight that he did not win. Getting angry at officials is not right and not productive to winning future regattas.  He should take joy out of getting there, being there, doing pretty well at times.  He should learn from the failings that made his team fall short this time and not blame others to vent his frustration on.  That's the kind of thinking that results in physical assaults on officials!

He's shown yet again that he doesn't and can't learn anything.  Team player he is not, and looking like a used car salesman in crappy jeans v the Italians acting as a proper team is pathetic.  Too much ego and believing his own hype, be dumb to pay him $$$$$ and do it all over again.  Lots of better young guys on the way up that will be the sort of team players that are needed in the AC game. 

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1 hour ago, sfigone said:

I get why he might be disappointed, but why pissed and angry?   

He was in a fair fight that he did not win. Getting angry at officials is not right and not productive to winning future regattas.  He should take joy out of getting there, being there, doing pretty well at times.  He should learn from the failings that made his team fall short this time and not blame others to vent his frustration on.  That's the kind of thinking that results in physical assaults on officials!

He'll never learn, proved that yet again and made all the same mistakes as last time. Zero respect for him and his quest for $$$$$ and personal glory.

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3 minutes ago, GBH said:

He'll never learn, proved that yet again and made all the same mistakes as last time. Zero respect for him and his quest for $$$$$ and personal glory.

Sadly I think you are spot on. He has led two multimillion design cock ups. 

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4 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

still got a fair way to go to catch up to Prada then..

Admittedly the AC has never been a good money investment for nobody

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8 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Admittedly the AC has never been a good money investment for nobody

Wrong Ernesto paid back to all Challengers in Valencia. And if (The ON:Y PERSON TO GIVE MONEY BACK) I was a betting man (fuck yeah and coined it), ETNZ wiil win and the whole sailing world be be better off in Dubai

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28 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Jal, you are coming across as a very bitter loser.  The butt hurt will subside but only if you want it to

cheers

the only rebuttal I have is for the pointless and petty slagging of of individuals. the only purpose of those doing the slagging is to score some virtual online point against someone who will never read their vitriol, oh bens a cunt oh he was drunk and aggressive to the nice little old man  all that shit, losers shouldn't attend the press conference etc

at no point have I said it was unfair that INEOS lost or complained of the result so I don't see that as being bitter?  

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3 minutes ago, veritas said:

Wrong Ernesto paid back to all Challengers in Valencia. And if (The ON:Y PERSON TO GIVE MONEY BACK) I was a betting man (fuck yeah and coined it), ETNZ wiil win and the whole sailing world be be better off in Dubai

You're right, I should have said "almost never"

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23 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Sadly I think you are spot on. He has led two multimillion design cock ups. 

Fewer than LR then. Yet now, here we are.

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30 minutes ago, GBH said:

He was in a fair fight that he did not win

I don't think he's ever said it wasn't fair but good on Ben Ainslie for not just sucking it up the plates of turd thrown at him by Prada off the water. Repeated cuntiness from Prada / COR in this, some of them quite bad things. Ultimately, none really changed the outcome of the regatta if you assume that, in all honesty, none of the teams would have allowed for a COVID delay if they were in Prada's position. Is it Jimmy and Cecco's fault their team acted like this? Not really. Is it Max Sirena and Cattani's fault. Sure. And the things they have done add up:

1. The outhaul protest. 

More the rules that were the problem here than anything else. This yellow card thing is bizarre and the fact that they can be measured and then not be is obviously rough and there are rule interpretations needed all the time. However, you can't complain too much even though it wasn't exactly magnanimous from the Italian camp. 

Cuntiness rating: medium. 

2. The non-COVID delay.

Truly terrible the way they handled this and very up their own arses. But does anyone really think that any of the other teams would have allowed the delay? Symptomatic of the fact the Italians would rather chew off their own arms than race in anything over 13kts but in honesty I think most teams would have done the same thing in their shoes. 

Cuntiness rating: medium

3. The wind limits

Yes, ETNZ agreed to this, but what they were agreeing to was that the defender had no objection to the challenger's request to lower the wind limits. i.e. they were personally happy to race the challenger in lower breeze. They didn't judge on what the challengers might want which is none of their business. When  the design was changed years out from AC 35, Prada threw its toys out of the pram and went home. Changing the wind limits essentially does the same thing only weeks out. 

Cuntiness rating: very high. 

4. The in-out 15 minute delay

This is beyond belief - when AM were doing their best to patch themselves up and get out on the water. Using the rules to make this harder from them to iron out niggles with their patched-together boat is just extraordinary. Bang out of order and a genuinely shitty thing to do.

Cuntiness rating: off the scale. 

5. Competitor NFI to the final press conference

Not really that big a deal, but by now we've seen a ridiculous pattern emerging and it was very, very good to see BA call them out on it. Very rude, out of order and in keeping with the shitty behaviour we've seen the rest of the time from the CoR. 

Cuntiness rating: straw that broke the camels back. 

 

All in, Prada have not executed their responsibilities with any dignity and it makes me shudder what they will do if they manage to win it next time as frankly the above will seem like child's play compared to what they'll do if they have the cup on their shelf. 

 

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

On they other hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooM-RGUTe2E

Not so very freezing either. Birds are starting to sing like they think spring is coming and keep inspecting our nest boxes.

Some people need inaccurate generalisations to get some sort of point over another.

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10 minutes ago, KingMonkey said:

I don't think he's ever said it wasn't fair but good on Ben Ainslie for not just sucking it up the plates of turd thrown at him by Prada off the water. Repeated cuntiness from Prada / COR in this, some of them quite bad things. Ultimately, none really changed the outcome of the regatta if you assume that, in all honesty, none of the teams would have allowed for a COVID delay if they were in Prada's position. Is it Jimmy and Cecco's fault their team acted like this? Not really. Is it Max Sirena and Cattani's fault. Sure. And the things they have done add up:

1. The outhaul protest. 

More the rules that were the problem here than anything else. This yellow card thing is bizarre and the fact that they can be measured and then not be is obviously rough and there are rule interpretations needed all the time. However, you can't complain too much even though it wasn't exactly magnanimous from the Italian camp. 

Cuntiness rating: medium. 

2. The non-COVID delay.

Truly terrible the way they handled this and very up their own arses. But does anyone really think that any of the other teams would have allowed the delay? Symptomatic of the fact the Italians would rather chew off their own arms than race in anything over 13kts but in honesty I think most teams would have done the same thing in their shoes. 

Cuntiness rating: medium

3. The wind limits

Yes, ETNZ agreed to this, but what they were agreeing to was that the defender had no objection to the challenger's request to lower the wind limits. i.e. they were personally happy to race the challenger in lower breeze. They didn't judge on what the challengers might want which is none of their business. When  the design was changed years out from AC 35, Prada threw its toys out of the pram and went home. Changing the wind limits essentially does the same thing only weeks out. 

Cuntiness rating: very high. 

4. The in-out 15 minute delay

This is beyond belief - when AM were doing their best to patch themselves up and get out on the water. Using the rules to make this harder from them to iron out niggles with their patched-together boat is just extraordinary. Bang out of order and a genuinely shitty thing to do.

Cuntiness rating: off the scale. 

5. Competitor NFI to the final press conference

Not really that big a deal, but by now we've seen a ridiculous pattern emerging and it was very, very good to see BA call them out on it. Very rude, out of order and in keeping with the shitty behaviour we've seen the rest of the time from the CoR. 

Cuntiness rating: straw that broke the camels back. 

 

All in, Prada have not executed their responsibilities with any dignity and it makes me shudder what they will do if they manage to win it next time as frankly the above will seem like child's play compared to what they'll do if they have the cup on their shelf. 

 

Is it possible that Laurent Esquier is still lurking in the background with all this cuntiness?

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16 minutes ago, KingMonkey said:

I don't think he's ever said it wasn't fair but good on Ben Ainslie for not just sucking it up the plates of turd thrown at him by Prada off the water. Repeated cuntiness from Prada / COR in this, some of them quite bad things. Ultimately, none really changed the outcome of the regatta if you assume that, in all honesty, none of the teams would have allowed for a COVID delay if they were in Prada's position. Is it Jimmy and Cecco's fault their team acted like this? Not really. Is it Max Sirena and Cattani's fault. Sure. And the things they have done add up:

1. The outhaul protest. 

More the rules that were the problem here than anything else. This yellow card thing is bizarre and the fact that they can be measured and then not be is obviously rough and there are rule interpretations needed all the time. However, you can't complain too much even though it wasn't exactly magnanimous from the Italian camp. 

Cuntiness rating: medium. 

2. The non-COVID delay.

Truly terrible the way they handled this and very up their own arses. But does anyone really think that any of the other teams would have allowed the delay? Symptomatic of the fact the Italians would rather chew off their own arms than race in anything over 13kts but in honesty I think most teams would have done the same thing in their shoes. 

Cuntiness rating: medium

3. The wind limits

Yes, ETNZ agreed to this, but what they were agreeing to was that the defender had no objection to the challenger's request to lower the wind limits. i.e. they were personally happy to race the challenger in lower breeze. They didn't judge on what the challengers might want which is none of their business. When  the design was changed years out from AC 35, Prada threw its toys out of the pram and went home. Changing the wind limits essentially does the same thing only weeks out. 

Cuntiness rating: very high. 

4. The in-out 15 minute delay

This is beyond belief - when AM were doing their best to patch themselves up and get out on the water. Using the rules to make this harder from them to iron out niggles with their patched-together boat is just extraordinary. Bang out of order and a genuinely shitty thing to do.

Cuntiness rating: off the scale. 

5. Competitor NFI to the final press conference

Not really that big a deal, but by now we've seen a ridiculous pattern emerging and it was very, very good to see BA call them out on it. Very rude, out of order and in keeping with the shitty behaviour we've seen the rest of the time from the CoR. 

Cuntiness rating: straw that broke the camels back. 

 

All in, Prada have not executed their responsibilities with any dignity and it makes me shudder what they will do if they manage to win it next time as frankly the above will seem like child's play compared to what they'll do if they have the cup on their shelf. 

 

It was nice to meet you too :)

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

...

Not so very freezing either. Birds are starting to sing like they think spring is coming and keep inspecting our nest boxes.

Likewise here in the Netherlands: last week I was literally skating on the water next to my boat in a freezing  -10C / 14F, now just 7 days later temperatures are over 15C / 60F

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32 minutes ago, KingMonkey said:

I don't think he's ever said it wasn't fair but good on Ben Ainslie for not just sucking it up the plates of turd thrown at him by Prada off the water. Repeated cuntiness from Prada / COR in this, some of them quite bad things. Ultimately, none really changed the outcome of the regatta if you assume that, in all honesty, none of the teams would have allowed for a COVID delay if they were in Prada's position. Is it Jimmy and Cecco's fault their team acted like this? Not really. Is it Max Sirena and Cattani's fault. Sure. And the things they have done add up:

1. The outhaul protest. 

More the rules that were the problem here than anything else. This yellow card thing is bizarre and the fact that they can be measured and then not be is obviously rough and there are rule interpretations needed all the time. However, you can't complain too much even though it wasn't exactly magnanimous from the Italian camp. 

Cuntiness rating: medium. 

2. The non-COVID delay.

Truly terrible the way they handled this and very up their own arses. But does anyone really think that any of the other teams would have allowed the delay? Symptomatic of the fact the Italians would rather chew off their own arms than race in anything over 13kts but in honesty I think most teams would have done the same thing in their shoes. 

Cuntiness rating: medium

3. The wind limits

Yes, ETNZ agreed to this, but what they were agreeing to was that the defender had no objection to the challenger's request to lower the wind limits. i.e. they were personally happy to race the challenger in lower breeze. They didn't judge on what the challengers might want which is none of their business. When  the design was changed years out from AC 35, Prada threw its toys out of the pram and went home. Changing the wind limits essentially does the same thing only weeks out. 

Cuntiness rating: very high. 

4. The in-out 15 minute delay

This is beyond belief - when AM were doing their best to patch themselves up and get out on the water. Using the rules to make this harder from them to iron out niggles with their patched-together boat is just extraordinary. Bang out of order and a genuinely shitty thing to do.

Cuntiness rating: off the scale. 

5. Competitor NFI to the final press conference

Not really that big a deal, but by now we've seen a ridiculous pattern emerging and it was very, very good to see BA call them out on it. Very rude, out of order and in keeping with the shitty behaviour we've seen the rest of the time from the CoR. 

Cuntiness rating: straw that broke the camels back. 

 

All in, Prada have not executed their responsibilities with any dignity and it makes me shudder what they will do if they manage to win it next time as frankly the above will seem like child's play compared to what they'll do if they have the cup on their shelf. 

 

Prada used the rules to their advantage. They were correct to do it. Being nice does not enter into it. They are here to win. If they do no one will remember how they got there with the exception of a tiny amount of Kiwis who like to eat their young. (I am thinking DB and the rest)

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12 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Is it possible that Laurent Esquier is still lurking in the background with all this cuntiness?

No sign of him any longer, he was properly blown away by Cyclone Bertelli.

Bad Butterworth will have taken over his cuntiness portofolio in great style.

 

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15 minutes ago, Xlot said:

What was that purge again?

 

Several non Italians got the boot when Covid hit. Esquier must have been too expensive while things grinded to a halt.

A victim of his own policies, if I may say so.

 

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15 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

Don’t think it has any particular English meaning.  I had a very Italian relative by marriage whose name was Rita.  Supposedly it is derived from the Spanish “Margarita” and means “pearl.”

 

In Swedish, it means "to paint".

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1 hour ago, KingMonkey said:

I don't think he's ever said it wasn't fair but good on Ben Ainslie for not just sucking it up the plates of turd thrown at him by Prada off the water. Repeated cuntiness from Prada / COR in this, some of them quite bad things. Ultimately, none really changed the outcome of the regatta if you assume that, in all honesty, none of the teams would have allowed for a COVID delay if they were in Prada's position. Is it Jimmy and Cecco's fault their team acted like this? Not really. Is it Max Sirena and Cattani's fault. Sure. And the things they have done add up:

1. The outhaul protest. 

More the rules that were the problem here than anything else. This yellow card thing is bizarre and the fact that they can be measured and then not be is obviously rough and there are rule interpretations needed all the time. However, you can't complain too much even though it wasn't exactly magnanimous from the Italian camp. 

Cuntiness rating: medium. 

2. The non-COVID delay.

Truly terrible the way they handled this and very up their own arses. But does anyone really think that any of the other teams would have allowed the delay? Symptomatic of the fact the Italians would rather chew off their own arms than race in anything over 13kts but in honesty I think most teams would have done the same thing in their shoes. 

Cuntiness rating: medium

3. The wind limits

Yes, ETNZ agreed to this, but what they were agreeing to was that the defender had no objection to the challenger's request to lower the wind limits. i.e. they were personally happy to race the challenger in lower breeze. They didn't judge on what the challengers might want which is none of their business. When  the design was changed years out from AC 35, Prada threw its toys out of the pram and went home. Changing the wind limits essentially does the same thing only weeks out. 

Cuntiness rating: very high. 

4. The in-out 15 minute delay

This is beyond belief - when AM were doing their best to patch themselves up and get out on the water. Using the rules to make this harder from them to iron out niggles with their patched-together boat is just extraordinary. Bang out of order and a genuinely shitty thing to do.

Cuntiness rating: off the scale. 

5. Competitor NFI to the final press conference

Not really that big a deal, but by now we've seen a ridiculous pattern emerging and it was very, very good to see BA call them out on it. Very rude, out of order and in keeping with the shitty behaviour we've seen the rest of the time from the CoR. 

Cuntiness rating: straw that broke the camels back. 

 

All in, Prada have not executed their responsibilities with any dignity and it makes me shudder what they will do if they manage to win it next time as frankly the above will seem like child's play compared to what they'll do if they have the cup on their shelf. 

 

I love that LRPP's success is eating you up.

1. Don't break the rules

2. Whats the point of an approved management plan if you won't enact it?

3. Two to tango, genuine safety issue

4. Blame LRPP for AM's inaction? rofl

5. Sour grapes make the best whine

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1 hour ago, KingMonkey said:

I don't think he's ever said it wasn't fair but good on Ben Ainslie for not just sucking it up the plates of turd thrown at him by Prada off the water. Repeated cuntiness from Prada / COR in this, some of them quite bad things. Ultimately, none really changed the outcome of the regatta if you assume that, in all honesty, none of the teams would have allowed for a COVID delay if they were in Prada's position. Is it Jimmy and Cecco's fault their team acted like this? Not really. Is it Max Sirena and Cattani's fault. Sure. And the things they have done add up:

1. The outhaul protest. 

More the rules that were the problem here than anything else. This yellow card thing is bizarre and the fact that they can be measured and then not be is obviously rough and there are rule interpretations needed all the time. However, you can't complain too much even though it wasn't exactly magnanimous from the Italian camp. 

Cuntiness rating: medium. 

2. The non-COVID delay.

Truly terrible the way they handled this and very up their own arses. But does anyone really think that any of the other teams would have allowed the delay? Symptomatic of the fact the Italians would rather chew off their own arms than race in anything over 13kts but in honesty I think most teams would have done the same thing in their shoes. 

Cuntiness rating: medium

3. The wind limits

Yes, ETNZ agreed to this, but what they were agreeing to was that the defender had no objection to the challenger's request to lower the wind limits. i.e. they were personally happy to race the challenger in lower breeze. They didn't judge on what the challengers might want which is none of their business. When  the design was changed years out from AC 35, Prada threw its toys out of the pram and went home. Changing the wind limits essentially does the same thing only weeks out. 

Cuntiness rating: very high. 

4. The in-out 15 minute delay

This is beyond belief - when AM were doing their best to patch themselves up and get out on the water. Using the rules to make this harder from them to iron out niggles with their patched-together boat is just extraordinary. Bang out of order and a genuinely shitty thing to do.

Cuntiness rating: off the scale. 

5. Competitor NFI to the final press conference

Not really that big a deal, but by now we've seen a ridiculous pattern emerging and it was very, very good to see BA call them out on it. Very rude, out of order and in keeping with the shitty behaviour we've seen the rest of the time from the CoR. 

Cuntiness rating: straw that broke the camels back. 

 

All in, Prada have not executed their responsibilities with any dignity and it makes me shudder what they will do if they manage to win it next time as frankly the above will seem like child's play compared to what they'll do if they have the cup on their shelf. 

 

1. The outhaul. Well, did it meet the rules or not? If it didn't then Ineos' geniuses should have know it didn't. No point crying over that one. 

2. Delay: in the end the racing was concluded before the cut-off date. Delays is a moot point. Ineos lost. Move on FFS.

3. Wind limit: top limit now 1 measly knot less. So what? The weekend's wind was what is expected in Auckland during this time of the year. Blame the design team (as Ainslie has done repeated rather than face up to his own shortcomings), not PPLR/COR. 

4. Using the rules ... well, yes, this is why rules exist, no?

5. Press conference: I can understand why they didn't want Mr Smacked Bottom, his sullen face and the string of haven't-we-all-heard-it-all-before excuses dragging the presser down once again. AFAIK this was a pre-scheduled arrangement, and probably best to bitch about it when your arse was smacked in Finals Day 1. 

One has to respect Ainslie's Olympic achievements (I'm sorry, I refuse to refer to him as Sir ... I mean WTF is 'Services to Sailing'? Did he reinvent the concept or something else I missed?), but the constant complaints has to drag the whole team down. Ainslie behaves like a spoiled little brat when he doesn't get his way (and has a history of doing so). Grow up. 

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1 minute ago, AeroSail1 said:

man i would love to see LR win the AC to see the general meltdown on this forum. It will be tough, but one can dream

I agree. Plus seeing all the nutcase Italian sailors in Olympics in 15-odd years' time. 

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2 minutes ago, lupedelupe said:

I'm sorry, I refuse to refer to him as Sir ... I mean WTF is 'Services to Sailing'? Did he reinvent the concept or something else I missed?

Well his success in Olympics must have inspired many kids who looked up to him and said "I wanna be as succesful as him one day" and took up sailing. I see this as a great service to the british sailing movement. Give him more campaigns, and who knows he may actually be succesful.

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3 hours ago, not from this world said:

Because that (hug the bloke that had deliberately tried to exclude him) would be the gentlemanly thing to do.

 

Hugging a stranger in this pandemic? Are you serious?

 

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9 hours ago, nroose said:

Seems like these crews have not really figured out how to start? I keep trying to figure out why they are pretty much always early to the start. It is just that these boats are just so fast.

The start box is too small for the speed of the boats to do a Vanderbilt start. If you go out to the boundary and turn back, you'll always be early.

This is likely why the port entry boat never seems to be all that fussed about getting their entry exactly on time, just early enough to be sure of crossing. It's less time to kill when you eventually turn back

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4 hours ago, An Interested Non-Sailor said:

A problem seems to me to be that the COR is a competitor and can make decisions that suit themselves and not all challengers.

My solution would be that before the regatta commenced the COR  must appoint another yacht club unconnected with any challenger to act as Challengers’ Representative who has the powers that currently sit with the COR.

Or vest the powers of the CoR in a challenger's commission where each challenging team has a vote. This is what Oracle did when they were the CoR.

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12 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Hugging a stranger in this pandemic? Are you serious?

 

They have all been quarantined and tested for STD's, nothing wrong with a hug.

BTW, you see Bruni humping Bruno's leg, but perhaps they are not strangers much, that could be serious...

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4 hours ago, sfigone said:

LR tried that before, allowing challengers to vote on issues.  Oracle supported a number of challengers and just influenced them to vote contrary to the CoR's interests.   So LR didn't make that mistake again!

 

LR didn't "try this before" as they were not CoR before.

They experienced it and while it is true that Oracle had influence over a number of challengers, Oracle ain't in this cup, mate.

LR kept the power for themselves because they wanted it. Challenger commissions have worked quite well in the past.

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6 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

Or vest the powers of the CoR in a challenger's commission where each challenging team has a vote. This is what Oracle did when they were the CoR.

That's what LR did, not Oracle. 

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4 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

Or vest the powers of the CoR in a challenger's commission where each challenging team has a vote. This is what Oracle did when they were the CoR.

 

3 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

LR didn't "try this before" as they were not CoR before.

They experienced it and while it is true that Oracle had influence over a number of challengers, Oracle ain't in this cup, mate.

LR kept the power for themselves because they wanted it. Challenger commissions have worked quite well in the past.

You really don't know a fucking thing, mate.

 

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11 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

Or vest the powers of the CoR in a challenger's commission where each challenging team has a vote. This is what Oracle did when they were the CoR.

And when LR did that everybody knows how it ended..

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Just now, idontwan2know said:

I'm talking about AC32. BOR was CoR and there was a challenger's commission. 

You're correct about AC35.

There was a Challenger commission, but BOR stayed the only CoR, and they were the ones to negotiate with SNG/Alinghi. Ask Ernesto about the amount of toilets etc. 

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2 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

There was a Challenger commission, but BOR stayed the only CoR, and they were the ones to negotiate with SNG/Alinghi. Ask Ernesto about the amount of toilets etc. 

You may be right...clearly BOR were the only ones negotiating the protocol but I thought they left most things after that up to a vote. 

Regardless, the fact that Oracle may have been effective at manipulating the challenger's votes in AC35 is neither here nor there about whether it's a good idea going forward. Oracle isn't participating and isn't the defender even if they were.

The CoR always leaves itself open to accusations of abusing their power if they don't share it. And that's fine if that's what they choose to do...just don't expect anybody to feel sorry for you. Being CoR is a shit job and there's a reason no original CoR has ever won the cup. 

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58 minutes ago, AeroSail1 said:

man i would love to see LR win the AC to see the general meltdown on this forum. It will be tough, but one can dream

And with Alinghi as COR it would be self-destruct mode....

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Or change radically the institutions.

Why not create an independent federation which is completely detached from the challengers. This federation is in charge of determining the technical regulations of the Class for the following america's cup and determines the "sporting regulations" for the following cup. In a way remove the decisional power of Defender and CoR and hand them to an independent federation.

The Defender will decide the location of the cup, and the CoR will remain as a symbolic role with no actual power. This way we have something more resemblant to the succesful model that is Formula 1 and we can have better racing, more challengers as well as a sustainable business model for the sport.

If you're thinking "it's against the tradition blah blah", I may remind you if we followed tradition we'd still be racing in schooners

 

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7 minutes ago, AeroSail1 said:

Or change radically the institutions.

Why not create an independent federation which is completely detached from the challengers. This federation is in charge of determining the technical regulations of the Class for the following america's cup and determines the "sporting regulations" for the following cup. In a way remove the decisional power of Defender and CoR and hand them to an independent federation.

The Defender will decide the location of the cup, and the CoR will remain as a symbolic role with no actual power. This way we have something more resemblant to the succesful model that is Formula 1 and we can have better racing, more challengers as well as a sustainable business model for the sport.

If you're thinking "it's against the tradition blah blah", I may remind you if we followed tradition we'd still be racing in schooners

 

You would have to go to the courts in NY and ask them to rip up the deed of gift and write a new one.

Short of that, there has to be a defending club and a challenging club and they either negotiate the terms of the match between them, or follow the default match terms in the deed.

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9 minutes ago, AeroSail1 said:

If you're thinking "it's against the tradition blah blah"

I personally see no downside to doing exactly what you say and massive upside. Each final race has a water-tight hip pocket CoR on the relevant hospitality boat, who after that concedes everything to an association. However, there are those on here that... shall we say... disagree rather strongly. 

For me, there is nothing in DoG that says the LV cup is necessary and the America's Cup should have all contestants in it from the start, best team wins. But you get shot for saying that here. 

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3 minutes ago, KingMonkey said:

I personally see no downside to doing exactly what you say and massive upside. Each final race has a water-tight hip pocket CoR on the relevant hospitality boat, who after that concedes everything to an association. However, there are those on here that... shall we say... disagree rather strongly. 

For me, there is nothing in DoG that says the LV cup is necessary and the America's Cup should have all contestants in it from the start, best team wins. But you get shot for saying that here. 

Could it be possible, without changing the DoG, to enforce the acceptance of some sort of preliminary contract that the COR and all the subsequent Challengers plus the defender, will have to follow?

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4 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Could it be possible, without changing the DoG, to enforce the acceptance of some sort of preliminary contract that the COR and all the subsequent Challengers plus the defender, will have to follow?

The two clubs can set whatever terms they want for the match, so they could certainly set up a federation of sorts and various versions of this have been tried since 2003. Setting entry requirements and entrants agreeing to the rules and procedures they'll be bound by is all standard stuff.

The thing that probably couldn't be done, and would need to be done for any kind of long term success, is making your governing body perpetuate beyond a single match. The deed treats each match as its own event with its own unique defender, challenger, and mutual consent terms.

What always ends up happening is that the defender and their hip pocket CoR decide that they can do it better than the last time and come up with a new structure and a new team to manage the event.

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1 minute ago, idontwan2know said:

The two clubs can set whatever terms they want for the match, so they could certainly set up a federation of sorts and various versions of this have been tried since 2003. Setting entry requirements and entrants agreeing to the rules and procedures they'll be bound by is all standard stuff.

The thing that probably couldn't be done, and would need to be done for any kind of long term success, is making your governing body perpetuate beyond a single match. The deed treats each match as its own event with its own unique defender, challenger, and mutual consent terms.

What always ends up happening is that the defender and their hip pocket CoR decide that they can do it better than the last time and come up with a new structure and a new team to manage the event.

But what if they accept the conditions with let's say a  USD 200.000.000 fine if they don't follow the contracts in case of victory?

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1 hour ago, Fiji Bitter said:

They have all been quarantined and tested for STD's, nothing wrong with a hug.

No hugs.

https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-system/about-the-alert-system/

Alert Level 2 — Reduce

Keep physical distancing of 2 metres from people you do not know when out in public or in retail stores. Keep 1 metre physical distancing in controlled environments like workplaces, where practicable.

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9 minutes ago, strider470 said:

But what if they accept the conditions with let's say a  USD 200.000.000 fine if they don't follow the contracts in case of victory?

Yeah, something like that must surely be possible. 

At the last race of every AC there would need to be a hip-pocket challenger ready on the gin palace of the competing teams tho. 

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6 minutes ago, strider470 said:

USD 200.000.000 fine if they don't follow the contracts in case of victory?

I can see idontwan2know's point that this can be done until a challenger wins the cup and just decides to revert to the current style of Defender+CoR regulations.

The DoG as it stands is a large liability to the future of the cup in modern times, i can see how it's hindering the growth of the AC into a sustainable business model which makes me think.. do we really need the DoG anyways? can't we just write a new one? How does it work if the defender wants to modify it?

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49 minutes ago, AeroSail1 said:

 If you're thinking "it's against the tradition blah blah", I may remind you if we followed tradition we'd still be racing in schooners

No the tradition is that the holder of the cup accepts a challenge and then between the two of them they work out the details.   There is nothing in the tradition about a challenger series, it's just something that they sometimes have.  Sometimes there has even been a defender series to pick the best defence.     There is a Manly Junior challenge trophy that has operated pretty much the same way for decades, so if you can make a bunch of sailing parents agree on a set of rules, then a bunch of squabbling billionaires should be possible too.

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5 minutes ago, AeroSail1 said:

I can see idontwan2know's point that this can be done until a challenger wins the cup and just decides to revert to the current style of Defender+CoR regulations.

The DoG as it stands is a large liability to the future of the cup in modern times, i can see how it's hindering the growth of the AC into a sustainable business model which makes me think.. do we really need the DoG anyways? can't we just write a new one? How does it work if the defender wants to modify it?

Yes but if they are to pay a huge amount of money they think twice before exiting the "league"

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18 minutes ago, strider470 said:

But what if they accept the conditions with let's say a  USD 200.000.000 fine if they don't follow the contracts in case of victory?

 

1 minute ago, strider470 said:

Yes but if they are to pay a huge amount of money they think twice before exiting the "league"

I am not a lawyer, but I suspect that the real lawyers would make a lot of money arguing whether a contract can constrain a future trustee in this way.

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