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2 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

All I know is I’m currently doing an oil change with this hand pump, which I bought because it stows very easily on board compared to the next larger one: didn’t want something that big on board.  It’s slow - so now I’m sick of low tech and want to wire in a 12v oil change pump!!! :-)

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I've got that same pump. It worked fine for me - warm oil is a must.

It ain't as fast as pulling a drain plug but it's by far the best and cleanest pump I've used. Easy too - just pump a vacuum and wait then repeat a couple of times.

It's really good at getting all the oil out too - virtually as good as draining.

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One involves hot showers and cold beer and one involves cold showers and hot beer.

rtw-ed our 34' Wharram "Iaorana" (selfbuilt in Austria) from 81 to 88, ...little money, big adventure... (2 &1/3rtw later, now  more than twice as old as then...)

IMHO in 2020 being TOO low tech is an affection, there is no reason at all not to have a VHF, a GPS, and a PLB. My vote is not a famous person, but the 1001 people heading off in an old boat and just

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6 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I've got that same pump. It worked fine for me - warm oil is a must.

It ain't as fast as pulling a drain plug but it's by far the best and cleanest pump I've used. Easy too - just pump a vacuum and wait then repeat a couple of times.

It's really good at getting all the oil out too - virtually as good as draining.

When I took the oil pan off I considered installing a banjo fitting at the low point at the back. I chickened out, not wanting to drill a large hole in the only oil pan within 500 dollars.

I'm OK with that, but it is a bitch getting any more than 3/4 of the oil out with the vacuum pump.

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I experimented with a vacuum pump on my diesel ute the last time I did an oil change.

Drained it with the pump, then took out the sump plug.

There was no oil left in the sump...

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I've got that same pump. It worked fine for me - warm oil is a must.

It ain't as fast as pulling a drain plug but it's by far the best and cleanest pump I've used. Easy too - just pump a vacuum and wait then repeat a couple of times.

It's really good at getting all the oil out too - virtually as good as draining.

I was getting a mite impatient this afternoon, for some reason (the oil was nice and warm, I was not wanting to pump and wait - lots of other tasks to do...impatience is bad!).  I agree - it’s really nice and clean to work with.

It can be so easy to slip into the desire to “over complexify” things...in between pressurizing the pump and waiting for oil to squirt down into the container, I started googling “12v oil extraction pumps” - and saw a Jabsco one for $379 - and was aghast...kept flipping around the web, found some basic cheap Chinese ones on Amazon...”sure, that’s good enough for a basic oil change,” thought I, and so on and so on.  The manual pump one works fine and it’s nice and clean...but I have this odd desire to want to flip a switch and simply suck the oil out with an electric pump that’s mounted in the engine compartment...a small luxury, I suppose?!

At the end, I finished the job and tried to remind myself that the hand pump works fine, for as often as I do this...no need to buy, mount and wire in a 12v oil extraction pump...unless someone can recommend a good, cheap one... :-) 

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2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

When I took the oil pan off I considered installing a banjo fitting at the low point at the back. I chickened out, not wanting to drill a large hole in the only oil pan within 500 dollars.

I'm OK with that, but it is a bitch getting any more than 3/4 of the oil out with the vacuum pump.

My mechanic friend convinced me to drill and tap a hole in the pan when we had the engine all apart three years ago.  I could hardly bear it, but we did it.  I haven’t been “brave” enough to take out the plug yet!

In fact, late this afternoon when doing the oil change, I peered under the engine, contemplating removing it.  We drilled and tapped not in the ideal spot to drain the oil, but in the ideal spot to get enough threads in so that the plug wouldn’t be a liability/in danger of leaking.  So, I doubt I’ll ever use it!  Oh well.  I guess I just live with not being able to get the last 1/5-1/4 of the old oil out...hard to snake the vacuum pump tube all the way around inside.

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17 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

At the end, I finished the job and tried to remind myself that the hand pump works fine, for as often as I do this...no need to buy, mount and wire in a 12v oil extraction pump...unless someone can recommend a good, cheap one... :-) 

Good segue back to the topic at hand. Adding an electric pump and associated hoses, fuses and wiring for a system you use once per year for a marginal (few minutes) convenience seems antithetical.
 

If you do choose to add it you should be damned sure it won’t short out, break, or otherwise negate said convenience benefit. So go for the Reverso system not the cheap eBay Chinese knockoff. 
 

That said, our trawler has a Reverso system installed. It leaks.  

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I like the idea of a $5000 Albert 30. If all things equal and one wanted to cruise on little money - it would be the smart low cost way to go. let’s return to the basics... A full keel boat means the load is spread across the hull, groundings, deadheads, shipping containers, fishing nets or pots are not that much of a bother.The chances of losing a keel is lessened by the length. Additional lag bolts into the lead would give the new owner piece of mind. All the Albergs I have ever sailed needed to be reefed, and sailed with less canvas to keep from wearing out the helmsman when the winds picked up. Knock downs for them are rare if nearly unheard of in the stouts boats with thoughtful planning. Yeah they aren’t fast but they will get you to the place you are going without too much breakage drama or when you bump bottoms or bellies with a whale.

as for returning to simpler sailing - a ketch rigged 30 Choey Lee would be awesome return to simplistic world cruising.. lovely boats with thick fiberglass hulls. Ample space below often with vintage but working full galleys and a head. At around 5k, they remain the bargain boat. Find one with a redone deck and cut the lines once you ensure the keel is attached and rigging checked beyond compromise. With just a little pride and wood care, this would be a boat to start a departure and end with style points in most harbors. Dismasting insurance is built in the design itself. As a kid I sailed on one to the San Blas and up and down the coast of Panama. There remain close to my heart as a wonderful boat to cruise. Under jib and jigger a relaxing pace. Sailing into a dock was easy and if done right could be backed in under sail.  Speed isn’t everything and sometime cashe has as much value as gold. 

 

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12 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

which require a lot of skill to make and fix.

Low tech requires skills, whereas Hi tech requires a good cheque book! All the gadgets end up making us "dumb" in the sense that you need less skills to operate a GPS than to do some dead reckoning.

Same story for the boat building....

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19 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Low tech requires skills, whereas Hi tech requires a good cheque book! All the gadgets end up making us "dumb" in the sense that you need less skills to operate a GPS than to do some dead reckoning.

Same story for the boat building....

Good point in many cases, Pano.  But it seems to me to be far from universal. 

At one extreme, some hi-tech stuff adds a lot of complexity which requires serious maintenance skill.

And at the other extreme, some h-tec can save a heck of a lot of cheques. For example, I'd bet that the bill for all the wood and fastenings used to build Tally Ho's hull and deck comes out way more than the cost of the  drums of resin and rolls of glass needed to hand layup an uncored GRP hull to the same lines.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Good point in many cases, Pano.  But it seems to me to be far from universal. 

At one extreme, some hi-tech stuff adds a lot of complexity which requires serious maintenance skill.

And at the other extreme, some h-tec can save a heck of a lot of cheques. For example, I'd bet that the bill for all the wood and fastenings used to build Tally Ho's hull and deck comes out way more than the cost of the  drums of resin and rolls of glass needed to hand layup an uncored GRP hull to the same lines.

Fair enough and very true. I was a bit cryptic on this one, what I actually meant by "you need a cheque book" is that with a high tech product, you are essentially buying somebody else skills. As you rightly point out buying stuff doesn't solves the maintenance issue whether it is hi tech or low tech, in many (definitely not all) cases though it is easier to learn how to maintain low tech stuff as it is hard to become a software/embedded system engineer overnight. On top of this you need the right kind of software engineer as the the tech is really fragmented. Where I work we got an unventilated/unheated school for several months thank to an obscure HVAC faulty card that nobody could sort out, at the end they got to import the piece directly from China!

As for ordinary GRP, I am not sure that it is completely in the high tech camp. Sure you need to dig a hole to extract some oil then manufacture some specific resins but it is still a very accessible and relatively common skill (lot of books / courses etc..., probably on a par with ordinary welding for instance)

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Low-tech, temporary, solution to a failed furler offshore?

I’m new to furlers and, somewhat cautious of them —and, occasionally thinking through gear failure scenarios offshore, I think our best option in a jam may be to remove the sail and raise our hank-on staysail on the inner forestay, carrying on as best as possible and deal with the equipment when ashore.

But this vid is sort of making me think of having the old hank-on Genoa (or, better, the working jib, since it’s a smaller/less bulky sail to store aboard) as a spare. I’d possibly consider this more seriously if we had no other backup headsail possibility (i.e., hank-on staysail).  Again, this an offshore failure scenario, not for local sailing.

(I broke a furling line once, over a thousand miles from shore - on a big boat. Thankfully, there was a sufficiently long spare line on board to sort out my fuck up.  With hank-ons, you never ever have to worry about this, or furler jamming, foils coming loose/apart, etc etc!)

 

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8 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Low-tech, temporary, solution to a failed furler offshore?

I’m new to furlers and, somewhat cautious of them —and, occasionally thinking through gear failure scenarios offshore, I think our best option in a jam may be to remove the sail and raise our hank-on staysail on the inner forestay, carrying on as best as possible and deal with the equipment when ashore.

But this vid is sort of making me think of having the old hank-on Genoa (or, better, the working jib, since it’s a smaller/less bulky sail to store aboard) as a spare. I’d possibly consider this more seriously if we had no other backup headsail possibility (i.e., hank-on staysail).  Again, this an offshore failure scenario, not for local sailing.

(I broke a furling line once, over a thousand miles from shore - on a big boat. Thankfully, there was a sufficiently long spare line on board to sort out my fuck up.  With hank-ons, you never ever have to worry about this, or furler jamming, foils coming loose/apart, etc etc!)

 

Soft shackles or webbing would be a lot kinder to the foil if you did need to switch.

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Interesting point - low tech, simple, and cheap have some odd overlaps and diversions.

A handheld GPS is the ultimate in high tech when you think about the skills and materials needed to make it and to launch the satellites.

OTOH it is the ultimate in simple and cheap for a low dollar cruiser. For under $200 you have an accurate source of position and time information, it can run a long time on batteries, and it is cheap enough to carry spares. Back in the day you would have had a SW radio for setting your chronometer, a sextant, sight reduction tables, a nautical almanac, and plotting sheets plus misc. supplies. In time-corrected money that is probably *20 times* more expensive than a GPS if not more, took up vastly more room, was fragile, and too expensive to have 2 of everything.

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It's not like soft shackles are hard to make at home on a dreary Winter afternoon.  

So this guy is was made it as far as Tahiti (same as the Dumbass family). Seems nicely done though he wasn't able to convince the wife this was a suitable means of getting there.  

 

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12 hours ago, Ishmael said:

When I took the oil pan off I considered installing a banjo fitting at the low point at the back. I chickened out, not wanting to drill a large hole in the only oil pan within 500 dollars.

I'm OK with that, but it is a bitch getting any more than 3/4 of the oil out with the vacuum pump.

My last boat had an "aftermarket" drain plug in the 2GMF.

It had been tapped for a small pipe plug, not a proper shouldered drain plug. It wept a little - just enough to require a diaper.

I bought a new pipe plug and that cured it.

Because of the limited access for a drain pan it was messier and slower than pumping the 2GMF in my current boat. I had to drain it into a mid size yogurt cup - several times - with concomitant spillage.

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

My last boat had an "aftermarket" drain plug in the 2GMF.

It had been tapped for a small pipe plug, not a proper shouldered drain plug. It wept a little - just enough to require a diaper.

I bought a new pipe plug and that cured it.

Because of the limited access for a drain pan it was messier and slower than pumping the 2GMF in my current boat. I had to drain it into a mid size yogurt cup - several times - with concomitant spillage.

That's why I was thinking banjo fitting with a permanent hose/valve on it. Attach the vacuum oil pump to the valve, open it up, and let the oil flow.

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2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Soft shackles or webbing would be a lot kinder to the foil if you did need to switch.

Ok, I admit I don’t *exactly* know what soft shackles are.  I would definitely set up a furler back up headsail so as not to abrade the foil.

But what exactly didn’t you like about his method?  Personally, if I brought an older hank-on jib onboard as an offshore backup in case the furler failed, I’d have the metal hanks removed.  Are you saying his hanks would be hard on the foil, or his homemade “soft shackle” things (cord in plastic tubing) would be?

(Anyway, for anyone who didn’t know what a soft shackle was...animated knots (splice, actually)...to learn...one day...one day...)

https://www.animatedknots.com/soft-shackle)

 

 

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11 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Jud, the foils on furling headstays are not built to take the point loads imposed by hanks

Still not fully getting what you mean.

By “point loads”, I assume you mean the points where each cord/hose attachment piece he’s  fabricated and attached to the metal hanks loads the foil?  In which case, how would an actual soft shackle be any different?  (Load wouldn’t be spread out on the foil, still at those points where the soft shackles are.)

Just trying to see a better way (than he’s done) to set up a simple “back up headsail” along these lines.  I like the concept, and I’ve got a pile of good old hanked sails.  

582A0B8B-5100-413A-A9D2-ABB9017653E6.png

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Just now, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Still not fully getting what you mean.

By “point loads”, I assume you mean the points where each cord/hose attachment piece he’s  fabricated and attached to the metal hanks loads the foil?  In which case, how would an actual soft shackle be any different?  (Load wouldn’t be spread out on the foil, still at those points where the soft shackles are.)

Just trying to see a better way (than he’s done) to set up a simple “back up headsail” along these lines.  I like the concept, and I’ve got a pile of good old hanked sails.  

582A0B8B-5100-413A-A9D2-ABB9017653E6.png

The other photo had hard metal pieces, not hoses.

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8 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Still not fully getting what you mean.

By “point loads”, I assume you mean the points where each cord/hose attachment piece he’s  fabricated and attached to the metal hanks loads the foil?  In which case, how would an actual soft shackle be any different?  (Load wouldn’t be spread out on the foil, still at those points where the soft shackles are.)

Just trying to see a better way (than he’s done) to set up a simple “back up headsail” along these lines.  I like the concept, and I’ve got a pile of good old hanked sails.  

582A0B8B-5100-413A-A9D2-ABB9017653E6.png

I am not too sure if that's inadequate or not but I imagine wide straps could help with spreading the load.

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1 minute ago, Panoramix said:

I am not too sure if that's inadequate or not but I imagine wide straps could help with spreading the load.

Seems like it - and less friction.

Arguably, however, soft shackles you make from Dyneema aren’t too “low tech”...but we may be taking this notion a bit too far! :-).  

Still, you could use ordinary cord - best is probably whatever material has the least friction/wears the best, since this would be for an emergency back up type of sail.  You’d want the attachments to hold up reasonably well.  Likely Dyneema/Spectra?

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

https://www.peaksailsna.com/store/p2011/ATN_Gale_Sail.html

Designed to hoist over a furled sail.

I was more thinking if the furler got fucked, or the furling line destroyed, or sail is toast (ripped in strong winds), you could feasibly have an old hank-on sail on board to hoist on the foil (after removing the furling sail), and carry on (while you repair the sail, sort out replacing the furling line, or I jamming the furler)?  Again, this would be in a long-range offshore cruising scenario.

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17 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I was more thinking if the furler got fucked, or the furling line destroyed, or sail is toast (ripped in strong winds), you could feasibly have an old hank-on sail on board to hoist on the foil (after removing the furling sail), and carry on (while you repair the sail, sort out replacing the furling line, or I jamming the furler)?  Again, this would be in a long-range offshore cruising scenario.

Yeah you could. I seriously, seriously doubt the foil would be damaged by point loads, incidentally, can't see that happening. Abrasion damage from those metal rings running up & down it, sure. But soft shackles or similar would minimise that risk.

FKT

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1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Still not fully getting what you mean.

By “point loads”, I assume you mean the points where each cord/hose attachment piece he’s  fabricated and attached to the metal hanks loads the foil?  In which case, how would an actual soft shackle be any different?  (Load wouldn’t be spread out on the foil, still at those points where the soft shackles are.)

Just trying to see a better way (than he’s done) to set up a simple “back up headsail” along these lines.  I like the concept, and I’ve got a pile of good old hanked sails.  

Jud, what I mean is that the foil is designed and built to take the sail load through a continuous connection between the sail's luff and the foil.  Obviously that load isn't perfectly distributed, because the load on the luff varies by position ... but if we were to draw a graph of load versus position, it would be a curve.

By contrast, if we draw a similar a graph of a system which relies on point attachment, then the graph will be a series of load spikes, with gaps in between where the hanks are located.  And those hanks will be applying pressure to the front of the foil, which may not have the same characteristics as the back.  Obviously, soft hanks will distribute the load a little more than solid metal hanks, but we still looking at the load being directed through something like 1% of the area through which it would be distributed by luff tape.

Maybe the foils are strong enough to take this unexpected load pattern, or maybe not.  I have no data either way, but if it was my boat and my expensive foil, I'd d prefer to verify the numbers rather than assume.

If the hanks are secured around a furled sail, as with the ATN Gale Sail linked by @kent_island_sailor, then two things happen:

  1. the load from the hanks will be distributed a bit better, by being cushioned by the furled sail
  2. the furled sail will be subject to at least some friction and pressure from the hanks.  I don't know whether that will be enough to cause damage to the furled sail

If I wanted to fly extra headsails like that, I'd prefer to hank them to a removable inner forestay

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

By contrast, if we draw a similar a graph of a system which relies on point attachment, then the graph will be a series of load spikes, with gaps in between where the hanks are located.

No it won't, because there is a tensioned stay inside the foil and any point load will pull the foil hard against the stay. It'll be more like a series of scalloped shaped loads rather than hard point loads with gaps in between them.

FKT

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3 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Seems like it - and less friction.

Arguably, however, soft shackles you make from Dyneema aren’t too “low tech”...but we may be taking this notion a bit too far! :-).  

Still, you could use ordinary cord - best is probably whatever material has the least friction/wears the best, since this would be for an emergency back up type of sail.  You’d want the attachments to hold up reasonably well.  Likely Dyneema/Spectra?

I argue Dyneema allows us to utilize, "traditional", techniques to better effect than ever before. 

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52 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:
2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

By contrast, if we draw a similar a graph of a system which relies on point attachment, then the graph will be a series of load spikes, with gaps in between where the hanks are located.

No it won't, because there is a tensioned stay inside the foil and any point load will pull the foil hard against the stay. It'll be more like a series of scalloped shaped loads rather than hard point loads with gaps in between them.

the load from the hanks will of course be distributed to some extent, but it is applied as point loadings.

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Are you talking furler failure, sail failure, or foil failure? I have a number of sails I can run up the foil even if the furler won't furl anymore. That takes care of two failure modes. What I don't have is sails that can be used if the foil fails, spinnakers excepted.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Are you talking furler failure, sail failure, or foil failure? I have a number of sails I can run up the foil even if the furler won't furl anymore. That takes care of two failure modes. What I don't have is sails that can be used if the foil fails, spinnakers excepted.

Well, I guess a few things just randomly went into my head after I stumbled across that vid - was in my YouTube algorithm feed.

Simply occurred to me that it was the germ of an idea for a back up headsail if anything on the furler went wrong (except foils, really).

(If foils failed, if you had a assym or Code Zero type furler, you’d have some sort of headsail?  I’ve got an inner forestay, so could basically deal with it.)

Last year this time, I was rebuilding/machining bits to salvage a free old Profurl I got in decent shape except for crunchy bearings.  Literally at the same time as I was rebuilding it and also kinda lamenting the loss of my simple hank on system, I came across these two bad furler articles that really almost made me change my mind... :-)

”Furler Failure Offshore”

https://www.oceannavigator.com/furler-failure-offshore/


“Relentless Wear and Tear”

https://www.oceannavigator.com/relentless-wear-and-tear/

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6 hours ago, TwoLegged said:
7 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:
8 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

By contrast, if we draw a similar a graph of a system which relies on point attachment, then the graph will be a series of load spikes, with gaps in between where the hanks are located.

No it won't, because there is a tensioned stay inside the foil and any point load will pull the foil hard against the stay. It'll be more like a series of scalloped shaped loads rather than hard point loads with gaps in between them.

the load from the hanks will of course be distributed to some extent, but it is applied as point loadings.

Even if it doesn't dent or bend the foil it is going to destroy the anodizing in short order.

Bad idea all around.

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9 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

No it won't, because there is a tensioned stay inside the foil and any point load will pull the foil hard against the stay. It'll be more like a series of scalloped shaped loads rather than hard point loads with gaps in between them.

FKT

She was talking of loading which will indeed be local spikes not of internal stresses which would be "scalloped shaped" loads.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

She was talking of loading which will indeed be local spikes not of internal stresses which would be "scalloped shaped" loads.

Minor thought exercise for you:

What is the compression strength of 6061-T6 aluminium?

What is the maximum force that can be exerted on a hank given standard sailcloth? Yes this does depend on a few factors but to make it easy for you assume 50m^2 of cloth and 3 hanks in F8 wind strength.

You can point load the aluminium all you like but you can't get it even close to its yield point or even its cyclic fatigue point. The sailcloth fails first. And that's ignoring the fact that as soon as you put a point load on the foil, it backs away from the load until restrained by the internal stay wire, at which time the load transfers to the stay and the aluminium is under compression as it's now in hard contact. Good luck getting it to cold-flow...

FKT

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2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Minor thought exercise for you:

What is the compression strength of 6061-T6 aluminium?

What is the maximum force that can be exerted on a hank given standard sailcloth? Yes this does depend on a few factors but to make it easy for you assume 50m^2 of cloth and 3 hanks in F8 wind strength.

You can point load the aluminium all you like but you can't get it even close to its yield point or even its cyclic fatigue point. The sailcloth fails first. And that's ignoring the fact that as soon as you put a point load on the foil, it backs away from the load until restrained by the internal stay wire, at which time the load transfers to the stay and the aluminium is under compression as it's now in hard contact. Good luck getting it to cold-flow...

FKT

Good luck with this approach, the load proportion going into the hanks will depend on the relative stiffness of the catenary of the stay, of the catenary of the jib and of the foil. We structural engineers are not that sophisticated, we assume the worst! On a well built sail, you will get significant loads before ripping off the shank as the load will be spread over a wide area. Aluminium is not as hard as brass or stainless steel, using a cheap fitting clamping on a expensive weaker one is silly, especially as the contact surface will be very small (Sigma = F / A) thus locally the stress will be high. It might not break the foil in 2 especially if headstay tension is high but it will at least mark it. As I said above, if you want a reliable system, use wide straps to spread the load!

This was a nice diversion but the reality is that you berated @TwoLegged  for a mistake she didn't make because you misunderstood her post. If you want to be pedantic, try to get it right!

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We interrupt this materials/structural engineering and sails/rigging discussion with a slight and pleasant temporary diversion.

Low tech fishing and low tech fish preservation.  :-) (skip ahead to 3:50 if you’d like to avoid the singing that precedes it, otherwise the thread will [sadly] dissolve into one on the merits of her voice, tiktok vids, her generation vs. “ours”, etc etc etc etc, like another thread on this sailor has  :-)).

Start at 3:50.  Low tech ocean fishing and fish preservation:

 

I’ve fished with a big, short, thick, expensive “tuna stick” fishing rod offshore before —and landing it is certainly easier with that, and while wearing the “cod piece” - but this is a good reminder that simple and low-tech works fine!  

I’ve never air-dried fish - I want to try that.  

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I don't see 'point loads' from these destroying a foil. With AFAIK the only exception being CDI, foils are either an aerodynamic ovoid (Harken, Alado, Facnor) or circular (Schaeffer, Profurl), and constructed of aluminum.

If ovoid, a foil will likely rotate in wind/under load to the point that the strongest part of the foil (the leading edge) is the place where the loads will occur.
If circular, the load will be spread across a larger surface area of the strongest possible geometric shape. Ie; not as much of a 'point' as in the ovoid.
Wherever the load occurs, the foil, not being held in tension, will by and large sag enough to be supported with its inner wall up against the forestay.

The worst that might happen is that the foil is rotated such that the point load happens where the sail track is located, and the track edges get bent inward enough to impede/stop a sail from hoisting.
These gizmos are not going to slice thru the foil like the proverbial hot knife thru butter, nor will they crush the foil like an empty beer can. If this was really a concern, the solution is simple: use a light line, so that it breaks prior to the point that the foil would get crushed.

If the worst case were to happen, you can fix the bent points on the foil sail track back in port, once these gizmos have saved your ass. Because if the loads were strong enough to have crushed or sawn through the foil with a bit of line and some plastic tubing, well, I'd argue that conditions must have been truly horrendous, this was a survival tactic, and you are blessed to be alive to have to deal with fixing it. ;)

Short of carrying these things around, keeping up with them, etc.. - you can simply lace the sail onto the foil.
It produces the same result, though perhaps being a bit slower on the hoist/drop. More likely to be affected by chafe, as well.

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28 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

We interrupt this materials/structural engineering and sails/rigging discussion with a slight and pleasant temporary diversion.

Low tech fishing and low tech fish preservation.  :-) (skip ahead to 3:50 if you’d like to avoid the singing that precedes it, otherwise the thread will [sadly] dissolve into one on the merits of her voice, tiktok vids, her generation vs. “ours”, etc etc etc etc, like another thread on this sailor has  :-)).

Start at 3:50.  Low tech ocean fishing and fish preservation:

 

 

Handlines work great.  On mine I use 1/8" nylon braid with a 15'ish mono leader.  Makes it fairly easy to pull in by hand.  I hope to be out long enough in nice enough weather to dry some fish someday.  One of her earlier vids had a more detailed method she used to prepare the fish for drying.

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15 minutes ago, bridhb said:

Handlines work great.  On mine I use 1/8" nylon braid with a 15'ish mono leader.  Makes it fairly easy to pull in by hand.  I hope to be out long enough in nice enough weather to dry some fish someday.  One of her earlier vids had a more detailed method she used to prepare the fish for drying.

I have one of those "Cuban yo-yo's."  I haven't tried it yet. I imagine landing a large fish with it would be tedious and time consuming but you can't beat it for the space savings when you stow it.

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My bad - the metal foil things? No thanks, or maybe only for short term and light air.

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43 minutes ago, bridhb said:

One of her earlier vids had a more detailed method she used to prepare the fish for drying.

Cool - I’m curious about that.

My wife loves food preparation (sometimes to her detriment...my cooking skills have atrophied!!  As she frequently reminds me...she loves cooking, but...ok, my NY’s resolution...), and we were talking about drying meat (game) after looking at a book some time ago.  But I think drying game (i.e., at home) is far less likely to happen than drying tuna or mahi on am ocean cruise.

Re: air drying meat (not fish) on board - some time ago, I came across a cool pic of a boat in the Chilean fjords, in the deep south, that had a fully butterflied Patagonian lamp hanging on the backstay to air dry (when it’s not raining, which it does a hell of a lot down there!).  Wish I could find it.  I think it may have been a pic on one of the big, fancy steel or aluminum expedition charter sailboats (like Pelagic Australis or Northanger, etc).

In that spirit, and to keep that low-tech-air-drying-fresh-food-on-board cruising dream alive too (although it’s a lot harder weather there than tropical sailing!!), have a look at this - talk about low-tech ocean cruisers: that’s a modest Vancouver 27, with two crew aboard!  (article about the book in the pic: https://www.yachtingworld.com/cruising/cruising-patagonia-extract-winter-in-fireland-nicholas-coghlan-126737 )

 

82E0D153-EEE8-4870-ADEF-91AA312E5ED1.jpeg

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Just now, Ajax said:

I have one of those "Cuban yo-yo's."  I haven't tried it yet. I imagine landing a large fish with it would be tedious and time consuming but you can't beat it for the space savings when you stow it.

I don't use the yoyo, just wrap it up on a short piece of one by.  I guess I add "tech" with a piece of bungee arranged like a dock line shock absorber and a cloths line clip so when the fish hits it pulls a slack loop and then the bungee absorbs the shock.  I have caught some pretty big king fish, bonito, spanish, blues and one cobia that I thought was a shark when I pulled it in.  Biggest problem is the fish are not really tired when you get them in as the boat doesn't slow down and pulls them up to the surface where they skip along.  I tried one of those down planers a couple of times but it was too much of a pain in the butt. 

I grew up in Miami, and watched the old Cuban men fish with those yoyos.  They could cast  pretty far using it as sort of like an open face reel!  

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4 minutes ago, bridhb said:

I have caught some pretty big king fish, bonito, spanish, blues and one cobia that I thought was a shark when I pulled it in. 

Wow, bravo! :)

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1 hour ago, bridhb said:

I grew up in Miami, and watched the old Cuban men fish with those yoyos.  They could cast  pretty far using it as sort of like an open face reel!  

Feels like reading Hemingway! ;)

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9 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Feels like reading Hemingway! ;)

Hemingway would’ve been much more sparing with his words.  Would’ve said the whole thing in maybe 15-20, and with a terse yet deep philosophical observation. 

“Grew up in Miami.  The old Cuban men, fishing with yoyos. They’d cast far - as one must in life.” 

:-)

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5 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Hemingway would’ve been much more sparing with his words.  Would’ve said the whole thing in maybe 15-20, and with a terse yet deep philosophical observation. 

“Grew up in Miami.  The old Cuban men, fishing with yoyos. They’d cast far - as one must in life.” 

:-)

What the heck did I know, I was a little kid with a zebco :-)

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On 12/27/2020 at 7:02 PM, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Provide some links/stories to deepen the well here.  I know about Wharrams, have heard of them, but know only very little and would love to read a good story.

rtw-ed our 34' Wharram "Iaorana" (selfbuilt in Austria) from 81 to 88, ...little money, big adventure... (2 &1/3rtw later, now  more than twice as old as then...)1307563556_2Cats.thumb.jpg.80b7797445fc4eaad835c3c28d225d33.jpg

Yalikavak 87.jpg

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On the topic of low-high tech watermakers: https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2020/ee/c9ee04122b#!divAbstract .

 

The actual technology involved seems rather low, as it's powered primarily by solar evaporation. But it would take some work to DIY one.

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Low tech fridge - I read about a tradewind passage back in the day where they saved a case of beer and a CO2 fire extinguisher. On crossing the equator they sprayed CO2 on the beer and then drank the now freezing cold beer :D

Hope they didn't have a fire, and I will have to remember that, and also get something other than the powder kind.!   My philosophy for sailing when after you run out of ice is "warm beer is infinitely colder than no beer"

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38 minutes ago, bridhb said:

Hope they didn't have a fire, and I will have to remember that, and also get something other than the powder kind.!   My philosophy for sailing when after you run out of ice is "warm beer is infinitely colder than no beer"

CO2 on a galley fire leaves the food and galley still usable ;)

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46 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

CO2 on a galley fire leaves the food and galley still usable ;)

Dry extinguisher media is surprising similar to grinding dust. You find hidden treasures for years to come. 

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2 hours ago, Elegua said:
3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

CO2 on a galley fire leaves the food and galley still usable ;)

Dry extinguisher media is surprising similar to grinding dust. You find hidden treasures for years to come. 

I also found out on a friends boat, some types of fire extinguishers are susceptible to being triggered by a rope tangling in the handle just exactly the right (wrong) way. He kept an extinguisher in a bracket right next to the companionway, normally a good idea IMHO, but when we saw a blast of smoke coming out of the hatch our first thought was that the boat was on fire or exploding, scared the shit out of everybody.... this was in the middle of a tight start in boisterous conditions, the boat to leeward of us panicked too.

I helped clean up some, but he said later that the inside of the boat had grit in all crevices.

They should put a warning label on those darn things!

FB- Doug

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Annie Hill - who has probably done more adventurous sailing than every contributor to this thread combined - is a longtime advocate of keeping things simple: “I believe that one of the great pleasures that we derive from voyaging is that of independence, and we have found that the best guarantee of that independence comes from simplicity”.

See further her classic book, now sadly out of print but available secondhand or on Kindle.

9780901281005-us.jpg

Here’s a more recent example of small-and-simple: Leo Goolden, “Solo across the Atlantic in a Folkboat”. No engine, no through-hulls (or head), no watermaker, no autopilot = no worries about systems maintenance.

 

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11 minutes ago, JRC026 said:

Annie Hill's new boat, built by her own hand and due for launching in a couple weeks...

 

Fanshi 1.JPG

Fanshi 2.JPG

Ah, I haven't checked in on the JRA for quite a while - must do so and catch up.

Good to see that she's almost there. It's a big job building any sort of boat with sufficient systems for a liveaboard even trying to follow the KISS principle.

I've both her books and have read them a number of times. I know of 2 people who've built BADGER hulls and I've spent a reasonable amount of time sailing on one.

FKT

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3 hours ago, Svanen said:

Annie Hill - who has probably done more adventurous sailing than every contributor to this thread combined - is a longtime advocate of keeping things simple: “I believe that one of the great pleasures that we derive from voyaging is that of independence, and we have found that the best guarantee of that independence comes from simplicity”.

Video tour of Annie Hill's new boat

 

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22 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Cool - I’m curious about that.

My wife loves food preparation (sometimes to her detriment...my cooking skills have atrophied!!  As she frequently reminds me...she loves cooking, but...ok, my NY’s resolution...), and we were talking about drying meat (game) after looking at a book some time ago.  But I think drying game (i.e., at home) is far less likely to happen than drying tuna or mahi on am ocean cruise.

Re: air drying meat (not fish) on board - some time ago, I came across a cool pic of a boat in the Chilean fjords, in the deep south, that had a fully butterflied Patagonian lamp hanging on the backstay to air dry (when it’s not raining, which it does a hell of a lot down there!).  Wish I could find it.  I think it may have been a pic on one of the big, fancy steel or aluminum expedition charter sailboats (like Pelagic Australis or Northanger, etc).

In that spirit, and to keep that low-tech-air-drying-fresh-food-on-board cruising dream alive too (although it’s a lot harder weather there than tropical sailing!!), have a look at this - talk about low-tech ocean cruisers: that’s a modest Vancouver 27, with two crew aboard!  (article about the book in the pic: https://www.yachtingworld.com/cruising/cruising-patagonia-extract-winter-in-fireland-nicholas-coghlan-126737 )

 

82E0D153-EEE8-4870-ADEF-91AA312E5ED1.jpeg

I think you saw this Skip Novak video with the game hanging in the background

 

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1 hour ago, Israel Hands said:

I think you saw this Skip Novak video with the game hanging in the background

 

Yes, that’s probably it!  Too bad the British yachting mag that does those vids with Skip didn’t ask him about the lamb...(I would actually like to know more about drying meat - seems like an eminently practical way to preserve something like that on board a small-ish boat for longer-term use.  You have to be much more careful with pathogens when drying meat than fish, I’m sure.  I’d have thought that sea air wouldn’t work well because of the relatively higher moisture content compared to doing that on land, at home.)

 

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13 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Yes, that’s probably it!  Too bad the British yachting mag that does those vids with Skip didn’t ask him about the lamb...(I would actually like to know more about drying meat - seems like an eminently practical way to preserve something like that on board a small-ish boat for longer-term use.  You have to be much more careful with pathogens when drying meat than fish, I’m sure.  I’d have thought that sea air wouldn’t work well because of the relatively higher moisture content compared to doing that on land, at home.)

 

It looked like that carcass may have received a saltwater marination

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I've never tried any fresh meat, but I have had good luck with cured meats like Jamon, smithfield hams, Chinese 臘肉 and hard cheese like any of the pecorino variants. 

A swipe with white vinegar takes any mould off. 

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This seems like a good thread in which to mention Marvin Creamer, the first recorded person to sail round the world without navigational instruments.

 

He cast off for the last time on 12 Aug 2020 at the age of 104.

 

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On 1/5/2021 at 7:42 AM, Israel Hands said:

It looked like that carcass may have received a saltwater marination

Look at this - a fine-looking book I ordered recently just arrived yesterday.  I cracked it open and look what I found - quite by chance!

Photo caption for the pic of the meat is: “When sailing in cold climates, meat is best kept hanging in the rigging where sun, wind and salt can preserve it.”  

Low-tech food preservation!  

CC89A177-3E5C-4509-A2FD-A21BB384A972.jpeg

614746DB-E8CC-4DDC-B7E1-AE5AD561AA1E.jpeg

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6 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Photo caption for the pic of the meat is: “When sailing in cold climates, meat is best kept hanging in the rigging where sun, wind and salt can preserve it.”  

I think it would be fun to hang the carcases on the windward lifelines: rail meat.

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In the great white north we call that a polar bear dinner bell.

image.png.2b492ca704ba5cbbbb711d8548f81dd3.png

Just substitute a sailboat for the igloo and you'll get the idea.

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10 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

In the great white north we call that a polar bear dinner bell.

image.png.2b492ca704ba5cbbbb711d8548f81dd3.png

Just substitute a sailboat for the igloo and you'll get the idea.

Er, doncha mean the Great Rainy North?  You do know that our precipitation falls, in great majority, in liquid form :-) :-) (we’ve already broken January rainfall records)

(That pic with the meat is from the Great South.  But indeed, far northern cruising, a large caliber rifle is legally required some places, for example Svalbard.  In the NWP, I doubt anyone would be dumb enough to hand meat on their boat...although maybe it would be a decoy, to keep the beard away from you :-) )

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29 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

Or, locally known as The Great Wet Spot.

Oh, cum on, it's not that bad. Although I don't remember our apple tree sliding downslope before.

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1 hour ago, JRC026 said:

Annie Hill launched her new low tech boat Friday, in Whangarei, N.Z

In the photo with sail up, the yellow boat in the background is the reasonably famous Vertue "Speedwell of Hong Kong" - also now junk rigged

 

FsnShi 1.jpg

Fanshi first sail.jpg

Fanshi at anchor.jpg

Good on her. Been quite a while in the building, like all owner-builds, and she got there. Much respect.

FKT

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Just now, JRC026 said:

FKT you should sail over here one year post-covid.  Your Colvin JR / Pointy Rig mix would fit in quite well in the junkie crowd.
The way you have described your boat, sounds like she could handle what would likely be a boisterous passage weather wise

Might happen, I'm still tuning the boat really. I'd love to spend some time in the Marlborough area. A cruising couple (not junk rig) have been there for a while, sailed Hobart-Nelson. You can usually get maybe 5-7 days of reliable forecasting for the passage.

The Hasler type JR guys don't think much of Tom's rig as a whole. I've spent a reasonable amount of time sailing on a friend's  Badger type and can see the strengths/weaknesses. Tom's rig is a lot easier to handle in strong/gusty conditions IMO, gybes are a lot less exciting anyway.

FKT

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28 minutes ago, JRC026 said:

That would be cool FKT to see one of Tom's designs up close!
Well, I am not into saying one rig is better than the other.   Frankly, Bermudan, gaff, junk - all welcome.  (Much like the debate between different styles of yachts.  Some people can't abide my 4knot s/box, but others marvel at her folkboat inspired lines).
There is no best rig in my opinion, and Tom Colvin's designs have had enough built and sailed many ocean miles that they must have something going right for them indeed.
Good vino in Marlborough, but for me you can't beat the East coast of North Island as a cruising ground when it comes to NZ - but again, each to their own 
 

Yeah but from here, shortest passage is Hobart - Bluff though technically it isn't a port of entry for small pleasure craft any more. But then nor is Nelson and my friends got permission. Something to do with shortage of fuel I believe. Spend time in the sounds then hook up the east coast of North Island would be good.

With the covid rules none of us are going far in 2021 I'd say.

Agree that all rigs have their strengths & weaknesses. As I challenged a person I know to build/buy their choice of rig for the same budget I used, buying all new materials. My bet was that I'd go a lot further than they would because they'd not even have a bare mast let alone a suit of sails. They huffed & dropped the subject of weatherly performance. I freely admit windward performance isn't the rig's strong suit but then again we can't sail for shit so - shrug.

Tom knew his stuff all right. We hit just on 7.5 knots under foresail alone last time we were out. It was time to reef...

FKT

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42 minutes ago, JRC026 said:

Well said FKT

I once hit 6.5 on a beam reach, prob with a bit of tide help, and I was ecstatic.
Not trying to turn this into a junk rig thread, but I have lots of camber sewn into my sail, so she pulls quite well to windward for what she is.

Just say you've popped into Bluff to pick up some oysters on your way north!

Well, one would have to say that junk rigs are very much low tech ocean cruisers, so we've that going for us.

Most of these marconi rig guys can't even do their own rigging, let alone build their spars or sew their sails. They're totally dependent on others to do that stuff for them.

I've got the sail plans off of Tom for a gaff ketch rig and a gaff schooner rig, and somewhere I've the sail plan for a cutter rig done by a 3rd party. Tom pooh-poohed that one as he said you'd have to reef way too early for it to be worth the trouble.

My friend Werner sewed a new suit of sails for his BADGER hull with lots of camber. He says it does improve windward performance some but was a lot of work for the gain. I wouldn't do it myself, I just fire up the diesel.

FKT

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So

2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Well, one would have to say that junk rigs are very much low tech ocean cruisers, so we've that going for us.

Most of these marconi rig guys can't even do their own rigging, let alone build their spars or sew their sails. They're totally dependent on others to do that stuff for them.

I've got the sail plans off of Tom for a gaff ketch rig and a gaff schooner rig, and somewhere I've the sail plan for a cutter rig done by a 3rd party. Tom pooh-poohed that one as he said you'd have to reef way too early for it to be worth the trouble.

My friend Werner sewed a new suit of sails for his BADGER hull with lots of camber. He says it does improve windward performance some but was a lot of work for the gain. I wouldn't do it myself, I just fire up the diesel.

FKT

so, why can’t you make a junk sail using battens that take an aerofoil shape?

seems to me a junk sail is just a big battened lug rig

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8 hours ago, olaf hart said:

So

so, why can’t you make a junk sail using battens that take an aerofoil shape?

seems to me a junk sail is just a big battened lug rig

Probably can, in fact I think I made my battens overly stiff. I used unidirectional f/g in epoxy on them and that added a hell of a lot of stiffness. One of the things on the very long list is to either take them off & run them through the table saw then re-glass the cut face, or make a new set of thinner ones.

Fine line between battens that are too stiff and battens that break in a gybe in heavy air though. We've broken a few on Werner's boat but the Hasler type rigs are nowhere near as controllable as the Colvin rigs IMO. Tom's rigs have all the batten sheetlets doubled with effectively 2 sheets so you can take up on the lazy one and control the swing a lot more easily. Plus they're closer in rather than right on the ends of the battens so better positioned. I can also rig a preventer which you can't really do on the Hasler type rigs.

I like experimenting so no real downside making/modifying battens except the time and a bit of materials. ATM I'd rather get the hard dodger finished & installed. If you've seen Troy's, you'll have a good idea about how mine is getting built.

FKT

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When I raced skiffs in the sixties, all the battens were bamboo.

We shaped them to set the sail camber, just trial and error.

They never broke, and believe me they had a hard life...

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37 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

When I raced skiffs in the sixties, all the battens were bamboo.

We shaped them to set the sail camber, just trial and error.

They never broke, and believe me they had a hard life...

Bamboo is really tough stuff. I couldn't get anything suitable here - need 6m lengths for the mainsail.

Unidirectional glass in epoxy on both sides adds an enormous amount of stiffness, I think I could probably halve the thickness of my battens. Maybe a job before next summer. Assuming this summer ever gets here.

FKT

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Don't forget stiffness in something like a rectangular solid batten is proportional to thickness CUBED.

Cutting it in half thickness = 1/8 the stiffness. 

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

Don't forget stiffness in something like a rectangular solid batten is proportional to thickness CUBED.

Cutting it in half thickness = 1/8 the stiffness. 

Yeah my plan is to take off a bit over a table saw kerf inside the f/g epoxy layer so about 3-4mm off of a 35mm batten.

If they end up too flexy (and I don't break them) I can always laminate another layer of unidirectional f/g on.

I made them from Alaskan yellow cedar which was really nice to work with but $$$ so I don't really want to waste them.

FKT

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