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Playing with my 49er - what to do


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I have a 49er I have sailed off and on. I am older now and it’s a little much to handle so am looking to change things up. I have a lot of skiff sails and carbon masts of different sizes and the boat has next to no value so I’m thinking of experimenting with it. 
Thinking of putting a 29er rig in it and removing the wings. 
Any ideas on how this would do or other suggestions ?  

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5 minutes ago, K9u20 said:

I have a 49er I have sailed off and on. I am older now and it’s a little much to handle so am looking to change things up. I have a lot of skiff sails and carbon masts of different sizes and the boat has next to no value so I’m thinking of experimenting with it. 
Thinking of putting a 29er rig in it and removing the wings. 
Any ideas on how this would do or other suggestions ?  

Looks like the width is pretty darn close. I suppose you'd just need to fabricate up some gunwales to make them easy to trap from. I still have my Int 14. but I'm older and have a 29er to mess around with on big days. Lots of fun.

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37 minutes ago, K9u20 said:

I’m trying to do it as a sit in boat. Don’t think I’m able to trap anymore. Maybe have a raised finale or cut the wings down as far as width.

Well, I sit in, the crew traps!

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How would hiking on a 49er hull with beams and a 29er rig compare to a B14 in terms of Righting moment? Can't be too tough to add some hiking straps. I'd imagine two sailors hiking off a 49er wing would be similar in RM to a 29erXX.

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10 hours ago, K9u20 said:

I have a 49er I have sailed off and on. I am older now and it’s a little much to handle so am looking to change things up. I have a lot of skiff sails and carbon masts of different sizes and the boat has next to no value so I’m thinking of experimenting with it. 
Thinking of putting a 29er rig in it and removing the wings. 
Any ideas on how this would do or other suggestions ?  

Are the wings ok to sit on?  Ditch the jib and try it single handed?  Too much weather helm, try a skinnier main? (Snip snip!  I’m sure that would do wonders with sail shape. :lol:  If the wings are too low to sit on, you could try sitting on some 4” slabs of XPS held on to the top of the wings with bungee cords or something until you find the right height and width, then glass ‘em on.  Or not.  

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plusplusnew.jpg

Or this...

sr-aftheel.jpg

How much money do you want to spend and how much change the boat? Seems unlikely you'd get a 29er jib to fit, you'd probably need a custom one. 

The boat above has Styrofoam core bouyancy/comfort pads on the end of the wings which gives some teabag proofing and a better hiking position. 

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24 minutes ago, K9u20 said:

I’m open as to what to do.  I have three 49er masts , a 29er mast and a lot of skiff style sails I can adapt.  I have a great local sailmaker that does my recurs if needed.

Ditch the jib, see what happens (won’t cost you anything), if that’s too much power, go w/ a smaller main (and you’ve got 3 mast (booms?) so if reefing doesn’t appeal, talk to your sailmaker about cutting down a sail & one of the masts and see what happens), then modify the wings upon which to comfortably sit.  Unless a jib’s self tacking, it’s going to be a pain...at least at first.  

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

plusplusnew.jpg

Or this...

sr-aftheel.jpg

How much money do you want to spend and how much change the boat? Seems unlikely you'd get a 29er jib to fit, you'd probably need a custom one. 

The boat above has Styrofoam core bouyancy/comfort pads on the end of the wings which gives some teabag proofing and a better hiking position. 

Is the top one (and the bottom one, now that I look at it more closely) your 14’ er?

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The wings are more than capable of handling one-person body-swinging.   They are design to take 2 people standing on the outer rail for short periods of time so if well maintained, they can carry one-person body swinging indefinitely.

The idea of some polystyrene blocks at the end of the wing to lift your butt is a good one, not because the wings are too low but because it will be far more ergonomically comfortable, it will allow you to “droop” hick rather than straight leg hick.

RM is very easy to determine, it's arm x weight, so you can compare different boats.

SCP is somewhat more complex because you need to know the height of the CoE.

Ditching the jib won’t work, because the c-board will be in the wrong place, plus it’s on a self-tacker, so why wouldn’t you, just let it do its thing.

Probably need to drop the rig height to 6m and bring everything else down pro-rata.

The other issue you will have is you will only need to float 180kgs and the boats design to float 275kgs so it will be overly buoyant, that just means the ends will not be in, and that’s OK but not ideal.

Could actually be very nice, get the areas right and it will be bloody quick up-hill with all that RM, and not to sleazy down-hill, even without a spinnaker.

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Sounds OK with the 29er rig. We are also rebuilding an old 49er, but we are making it a sportsboat with a small bulbkeel and fore deck. The drawing shows a cut main, but as we have a lot of sails we will begin with the full rig. Bought the bare hull with two rigs but no wings. We are two lightweight oldies with no intention to use trapeze again. We also have a cut down rig with the main being cut off to 12,5sqm for another dinghy, but will try the uncut rig first. Have done the RM calculations and they gave me the 13,3sqm figure, with a design wind on par with VX One.

9112C3E5-21F5-4E62-8C43-6EB46AF35EB4.jpeg

A0774816-75C7-44C8-8FBA-9F54C157D44B.jpeg

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If it was me, I would be using straight tubes, run the in-board end right into the Centercase, lots of material there, 10mm thick, say 4 x G10 or G12 screws through a 6mm alloy plate would hold it very well. 

Then jack to tube up on block as it passes the chainplate, you can bolt straiht through the gunwhale.   External sleave as it passes across the top of the block.

do the same thing at the back but fill the foot rail with epoxy and bolt straight through it

image.png.1dd24fdd78dc74965e00150ad292dda7.png

It will allow you to get your weight fwd which you will need to do, plus it's stronger and simpler.

You can then take the wing width out another 300mm say, bit of 60 x 2 round tube with some 64 x 1.8 as it comes over the gunwale would eat it.

Let me know how you go, sounds like a bit of fun.

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Hi K9u20,

Sorry for having hijacked your thread, just got so happy see anyone else playing on the same  theme as me. Will start a thread of my own when we have sorted out the wing configuration. It will anyway be interesting to compare the end results.

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Hi JulianB, 
Thanks for your info about the inner structure of the hull. Will keep you posted when we have tried the inital idea.

I use 50x2mm alu with notched ends together with drilled out PVC PN16 fittings for plumbing. About moving the front of the wings forward, the shrouds are just forward of the wings as these are perpendicular to the keel line. The front of the wing will also be hung in the trapeze wires to lessen the forces on the hull and the tubing. But the front lengthwise tubes can be extended pass and outside of the shrouds maybe 30cm forward by using a 4-cross fitting(at the inner lengthwise tube) as can be seen below. But at the rear your recommendations comes in handy. Like if you turn the wing from the second image around.

Have done quite a few wings with this method for different dinghies and beachcats and it works fine even 2.2 m long, with two men hiking from them. From  the beginning I draw the wings to be 80cm outside the gunwale but decided on 65cm. No prob to widen them later though. The images are from before I decided to use the original wings inner bolt holes.

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CFDDC195-6A33-4E91-B035-B67B50FDD8C3.jpeg

4cross.png

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This is my idea of a singlehanded 49er without cutting down the mast. Depending on wings and wind, a small lead bulb might be needed though. Maybe a 29er spin from just above the hounds could work? If the main leach is cut in a straigth line from the top batten to just forward of the  reinforcement, something like 11sqm should be the result. Personally I would consult a reputable sail loft before cutting. I also have a PDF somewhere on how to cut down the 49er rig for the Swift Solo.

JulianB, I have a straight section 27cm chord 0011 alu daggerboard for my bulb. But how much lead do you think a std 49er of the early design can cope with? 

forwardwings.png

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revintage,

keep the thread going...... I appreciate your input and ideas. We have the same goal in mind. I love the 49er !  I was thinking of enclosing the foredeck and your input and pics really helped. Keep the ideas coming.

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Great, then I will post the progress of our build here.

My project has actually been resting a few years since my co-owner and best friend passed away. Have now found another friend willing to take part of it and we will have a fresh start of the project in January and have already moved everything to his workshop. All parts except the lead keel bulb are present. The new co-owner also has the skills and sewing machines for recutting the sails. I also have a FB friend at North willing to give advices on how to cut.

Hope the projects will turn out good for both of us!

Please become a member of my FB group: Frankenboat

In the image is the cutdown 15 sqm rig on an old french Flibustier hull.

Cheers

Lars

 

IMG_0668.JPG

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In 2002 I did a sportsboat called Vivarce, 8.5m, 1000kgs inc the 5 crew, it was very quick, and spawned 20 odd boats, French Kiss, Conquesterdor etc etc, its still winning races 18 years on. It had 160kg blub.  You about a 1/4 of that so 40kgs seens fair.

Coming From the other side, Gerardo Seeliger, the then 29er/49er pres sailed his 29er one up with 10-15kgs blub and he reported that worked well, so that suggests a tad less than 40kgs would be sufficient.

Like the fore-deck, I have a dwg something like that, about to go to Seahorse re where the 49er may end up in 5-10 years.

jB

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Interesting, my calculation said 50kg, but I am a cautious fellow.

Will add my Sportsboat Design Wind Excel application later today. It might need some adjustment.

Cheers

Lars

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A grown up 49er:)! Is there a tunnel for the spin?

About fore deck on the 49er. My idea is to move both jib track and tack upwards to have some clearance. But will try this out when rigged. 

 

 

Vivace.jpg

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So that's a big handsom pete, otherwise known as Zorro or Peter Sorensen who brought Vivarce of Piere Gal and he is sailing in Hamilton Island race week.   He, in fact the Buck-toothed-wart (Andrew Buckland) who is sitting just infront of him made a number of changes to the boat inc a 350kg bulb, and 60mm thick and 2m deep fin and runners.   Plus he is sailing 6 up, so probably 250kgs over target.    And they also won most things.

Plus Zorro won 3 18teen worlds, Buckland maybe 10, so they are no idiots.

The present owner has taken that all off, and uses a tacking TE fin which is back to the original size and bulb weight (160kgs), original size rigs and I think he has sweep all before him over the last 2 years.    Vivarce was built in 2002, I think, outer skin is 1 layer of 400gm carbon, 20mm core, so very little "idiot factor" but it's still in near perfcet shape.   It, French Kiss and Conquistodor still demand $60-70k in the 2ndhand market.    The S8 was spawned of it, tad hevier, canting keel, yad yad yad.

I think DSS would have been more interesting.

I sailed with Piere (the original owner/builder) on Lake MacQuarie in exactly this boat, probably in 2004-5 and we sat on 25knts for a 2nm ride (5 on-board).

A wonderful boat, a real pleasure.

One of my COVID project is to build a 99er (Vivarce is a 89er), probably 30ft starting in the next month or so, hope to again bring it in under 1000kgs inc crew.

Keep you posted,

                 jB

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7 hours ago, revintage said:

Hi JulianB, 
Great info!

Is this the ”back to basics” boat?

Don’t forget to post info about your new project.

FE8EC121-D99A-400A-93CE-ABEB2699383B.jpeg

This is Vivace, sailed regularly out of Mackay, Queensland. Committed owners who have made several mods and really work hard to remain competitive. Great boat to watch when the breeze is up.

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Maybe a little high SA for single handing at 15.5sqm? But you can always compensate with wider wings. A lot less than 21.2sqm anyway.

Use the Excel sheet above to check. Can make another one for you without keels with 49er, 29er and others including your new combo.

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Just saw your excel sheet. Very helpful. Thanks !  You think this is still too much sail for single handing ?  I have a 100 lb bulb that I could add if needed. ????

 

 

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I think the issue with the 49er/29er rig isn't the sail area, cause I can singlehand a 29er ok in moderate stuff, it's capsize recovery. Can you get a 49er back up when it falls over?

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28 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

I think the issue with the 49er/29er rig isn't the sail area, cause I can singlehand a 29er ok in moderate stuff, it's capsize recovery. Can you get a 49er back up when it falls over?

If you do the math you can see what will have a chance to work single handed.

The next thing to consider is, if it is possible to right the boat if/when capsizing. A mast float might help.

Raz´r, does it work to right the 29er single handed? My guess is, it works.

A few single hand options compared with the original 49er. Guesstimated CoE of Skud18.

 

 

294918.xls

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38 minutes ago, revintage said:

If you do the math you can see what will have a chance to work single handed.

The next thing to consider is, if it is possible to right the boat if/when capsizing. A mast float might help.

Raz´r, does it work to right the 29er single handed? My guess is, it works.

A few single hand options compared with the original 49er. Guesstimated CoE of Skud18.

 

 

294918.xls

Yes, I can right a 29er in moderate (less than 15) knots, I weigh 165 pounds. Over 15 and I wouldn't go out alone. Shoot, at 15 I'm sticking in the protected, flatwater channel.

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34 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Yes, I can right a 29er in moderate (less than 15) knots, I weigh 165 pounds. Over 15 and I wouldn't go out alone. Shoot, at 15 I'm sticking in the protected, flatwater channel.

Just curious, are we talking turtling or just on the side with sails over surface?

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27 minutes ago, revintage said:

Just curious, are we talking turtling or just on the side with sails over surface?

It's pretty shallow where I sail, turtle and you have a good shot of breaking the rig. 

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I have 2,5m depth where I sail mostly. Actually thinking of a mast float. Have not broken any rigs, but I don’t like mud on the main sail head.

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Get a mast float, last time I had to be rescued was wind and tide together, capsized a Laser, it turttled, wind and tide drove the mast into the mud. No way I'd be able to get it off. Was gong to swim home but nice person in a power boat pulled it out.

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21 hours ago, K9u20 said:

Just saw your excel sheet. Very helpful. Thanks !  You think this is still too much sail for single handing ?  I have a 100 lb bulb that I could add if needed. ????

 

 

Tell me more about your bulb and how you intend to attach it. 

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The bulb is 100 lbs.  I use it on my Skud 18. It has a groove in it that I can slide the bottom of the board into. It secures with 2 stainless steel retainer pins that slide through the bulb and fin.

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1 hour ago, K9u20 said:

The bulb is 100 lbs.  I use it on my Skud 18. It has a groove in it that I can slide the bottom of the board into. It secures with 2 stainless steel retainer pins that slide through the bulb and fin.

Would you mind sharing this arrangement with a few images. Send them like message to me if you like. Have not yet decided how to attach the bulb to my foil.

Cheers

Lars

My dinghy FB-group Frankenboat:

https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1792963567605832&ref=content_filter

My foiling group: 

https://m.facebook.com/groups/2160774603967026/?ref=bookmarks

 

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11 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

This is an interesting project. How do you propose to strengthen the hull at the centrecase to take the weight and lever force of the fin and bulb ?

Is there any more than designed?
The board can take 2 large blokes bouncing on it when capsized,  and upwind all that dynamic righting moment is hitting the board and case. Remember that most of the time the weight won't be doing much, as a skiff needs to be sailed flat. So you're just dragging weight.  It's just there to slow the oh-shit moment down a bit.  I guess there is weight pulling down when the boat is upright, and that's new, but that board case has to be able to take a static 100 pound load. 

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While I don’t have any mathematical loads on the centerboard or hull, several years ago I added a 65 lb bulb to my then 49er with no issues. I also flipped the boat with no bulb my brother and I at a total weight of  400 lbs hung from the board. 
On this project I have shortened the rig to 6 meters and going to try a 100 lb bulb that I have.   Rig and sails are done. 
When I did the last boat with the 65 lb keel bulb there were times when it would have flipped but you could tell the bulb brought it back 

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Make a load case of this and you will see that the only thing to eventually worry about is daggerboard breakage when it enters the case, not the hull. As previously mentioned the original daggerboard is designed to take excessive loads over 200kg at the lower end,  so no worries. 

In my design I decided to use a 1500mm long 270mm NACA aluminium section with an 1” rod inserted to widen it, as I wanted the bulb lower and also keeping the original board intact. This also means I can fill it up with lead shots, if needed, to fine tune the ballast.

By adding a HDPE plate with longitutional fixing holes over the case slot, it will also be possible to trim the balance point a little, using the lower front of the case as reference.

K9u20, I would really appreciate a few images of how your bulb is attached to the daggerboard, as we haven’t decided how to do.

4BAFE007-2F35-404A-83E2-BD025857B481.jpeg

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Thanks for the discussion on this, it is a project of interest to me that may fill a void in my current sailing options.

I would suggest that there is a more constant load on the centre case from a fixed bulb than the occasional weight to right the boat from a capsize. As the boat goes over swell the bulb will accelerate forward and back, twisting from the bulb is real in addition to the righting moment. The board would also need to be locked down once lowered to prevent it moving in a knockdown, broach etc.

Please don’t see my comments as knocking the idea, I just want to explore the possible issues to find the risks before maybe doing something similar. There must be older donor boats out there that need a new life?

revintage - where did you get the foil extrusion from?

 

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Here is the attachment method for the bulb. It is from the Skud 18 manual.  My Skud 18 is in storage but I am going to the boat this weekend to pick up the small 100 lb bulb to use on the 49er.  I have two bulbs for the Skud —— one is 100 lbs and one is 300 lbs and both attach the same way.  

8F8CC95C-8686-4EE4-80EA-4A40CCF9873A.jpeg

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14 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Thanks for the discussion on this, it is a project of interest to me that may fill a void in my current sailing options.

I would suggest that there is a more constant load on the centre case from a fixed bulb than the occasional weight to right the boat from a capsize. As the boat goes over swell the bulb will accelerate forward and back, twisting from the bulb is real in addition to the righting moment. The board would also need to be locked down once lowered to prevent it moving in a knockdown, broach etc.

Please don’t see my comments as knocking the idea, I just want to explore the possible issues to find the risks before maybe doing something similar. There must be older donor boats out there that need a new life?

revintage - where did you get the foil extrusion from?

 

I like this thread as it is so friendly. So all input and aspects on the subject are welcomed, as long as they are constructive and yours really are.

About the daggerboard load case, I look upon it like this: The walls of it is not loaded at all, the sideways loads on the deck and bottom sandwich panels, are compression forces and the structure should be able to take excessive forces, so it is still the bending forces on the daggerboard being the weak point, even if we include the torsional forces from the water movement.

The section is from Gareth at http://www.windknife.com/ . I think Duckworks sell them in the US. 0009 section, with the inserted rods making it 0011. There is a 18mm rod/tube missing as marked in red on the one of images taken from when I modified the daggerboard for the dinghy in the background. It is needed to make the profile fuller.

section.jpg

addred.jpg

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6 hours ago, K9u20 said:

Here is the attachment method for the bulb. It is from the Skud 18 manual.  My Skud 18 is in storage but I am going to the boat this weekend to pick up the small 100 lb bulb to use on the 49er.  I have two bulbs for the Skud —— one is 100 lbs and one is 300 lbs and both attach the same way.  

 

Thanks, it is not more complicated than I thought it would be. We will cast the bulb as two halves, with bolts through the foil holding everything together when glueing.

Questions:

Is the bulb made with a thin plastic cover or just leveled out with filler and painted?

Expect you will use the original 49er board?

Hard to see from your image: Is the bulb made from a bottom and top half?

Expect you will use the original 49er board?

top.png

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The bulbs are cast as one piece. The 300 lbs bulb came from the factory. I made the 100 lb bulb.  
I made a mold of the lower 8” of the board and inset that into a mold I made for the bulb. I then poured lead into the bulb mold. Both bulbs are one piece.The factory bulb has a thin plastic coating on it and the 100 pound bowl that I built was just faired  with epoxy. For the lead I bought number eight lead shot and made a Slurry with epoxy and poured it into the bulb mold. I am using the standard board. I built one that was 65 pounds and I had no flex in the board at all so I feel it will handle the hundred pounds

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Like most talking on this thread, I got into a 49er as an adult (#921/sliders, carbon rig).  I'm a fan of the TASAR, the books and the boats that came from the Bethwaite stable. Between schedules and finding another adult that likes to swim my 49er does not get sailed a lot.

With the enthusiasm here - maybe there is interest (and a Bethwaite involvement) for a OD or development class - sort of filling the 59er gap.

Andrew

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1 hour ago, K9u20 said:

The bulbs are cast as one piece. The 300 lbs bulb came from the factory. I made the 100 lb bulb.  
I made a mold of the lower 8” of the board and inset that into a mold I made for the bulb. I then poured lead into the bulb mold. Both bulbs are one piece.The factory bulb has a thin plastic coating on it and the 100 pound bowl that I built was just faired  with epoxy. For the lead I bought number eight lead shot and made a Slurry with epoxy and poured it into the bulb mold. I am using the standard board. I built one that was 65 pounds and I had no flex in the board at all so I feel it will handle the hundred pounds

Great info, thanks. About lead shots and epoxy I thought about that as a nice build method, but the density then goes down from over 11kg/dm3 to below 7kg.  This makes volume go from 4,5dm3 to 7dm3 for a 50kg bulb. The drag is small for either of these 0015 bulbs and nothing to take into account, though. Made a ballpark calculation of drag got just over 1N difference(4.7 to 3.5N) at 10m/s, estimating total Cd to 0.02, anyone who can verify? 

bulbs.png

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On 1/9/2021 at 4:16 AM, Werdna said:

Like most talking on this thread, I got into a 49er as an adult (#921/sliders, carbon rig).  I'm a fan of the TASAR, the books and the boats that came from the Bethwaite stable. Between schedules and finding another adult that likes to swim my 49er does not get sailed a lot.

With the enthusiasm here - maybe there is interest (and a Bethwaite involvement) for a OD or development class - sort of filling the 59er gap.

Andrew

I really enjoyed doing the SKUD.     Hull is a interesting cross between a 29er and Vivace, the rig is basically a 29er, but we stiffened up the lower mast using D1's, but same sections, if you do that maths re RM, very similar to a 29er.     I remember consulting with Dina (Chair of WS Equipment) re the attachment of the bulb (I don’t like the pins they use now, but what the hell) and the result was a great boat.

Tim Ross (Adelaide boy, owns Xtreme sailboats Indonesia) and I descended on it in Singapore, tore it apart, threw ½ the shit away, and put it all back together in under 24hrs and won the selection about 6 hrs latter, then it was 4-6 months really manic work to take it from a concept that was bastardised by others into something that worked.   Only reason we kept going is it had great bones!

The result was truly spectacular for what was wanted, and I walked into a coffee shop about 6 years ago and was then mobbed by appreciative Para sailors. My eldest son was with me and was quite taken aback.

That’s why you do this stuff.

I do like the rolled over gunwales, that’s always a plus, they have lost the plot with the rig, but they are not the first to have done that, people just don’t get the finer nuances that make such a huge difference.

Incredibly sad the class has gone where the class has gone.   Quite interesting, and it happens time and time again, remove the “conceptor” the commercial element from the class management and at best the class becomes a Assoc managed class, which can be a very good thing, if it’s a huge class, otherwise that = volunteers running it, and if they have better things to do they quite rightly do it and the class suffers.

David Staley who used to manage the SKUD is now the Sailing Sec at one of my Yacht Clubs, don’t even know what happened to Chris Mitchel, but of any class that could transcend the able/para transition, it was the SKUD.

Don’t think I could do a better boat (in that size/cost range)

So really don’t think I can help you there.

                           jB

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JulianB,

As I have interpreted the thread starters(K9u20) intentions, he intend to make something fun of a beyond raceworthy 49er, ie the same intentions as I have. To have any further expectations of our tries to reuse a great and competent hull is of no value.

It will be interesting to see how the different versions works IRL and then compare these recycled boats.

About the bulb attachment, what is your idea of doing it?

I have taken your recommendations account, about widening the wings some 300mm. This is an alternative, as you can then go for  the original sail plan, instead of cutting the main down to 13,3sqm, using the same ballast. Might have to add another lengthwise strut, though. Should be better to make the wings wider to begin with and then cut them down, if we want to go the more stable "shorter wings/smaller SA" route. 

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I wasn't clear - not a new boat but a a 3rd subclass - 49er, 49erFX and 49erMOD (the I14 version).  I like these ideas, but rather than make random boats, conforming to a similar vision would be great.

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3 hours ago, Werdna said:

I wasn't clear - not a new boat but a a 3rd subclass - 49er, 49erFX and 49erMOD (the I14 version).  I like these ideas, but rather than make random boats, conforming to a similar vision would be great.

I, personally, would LOVE to see what an I14 designed by Julian would look like in 2020. Bonus points to see how his rig would compare to current conventions. But that might be too far of a thread drift...

 

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16 hours ago, K9u20 said:

I have a Skud also.  Since I had spare 49er rigs I put one on the Skud.  Here is a picture. Love the boat !

673E2C43-4FB6-4A88-9B9A-89C70D9F2226.jpeg

Pretty obviously that is not a 49er rig, and sit further fwd, get the nose it.

But it's great to see it being used and enjoyed.    jB

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On 1/9/2021 at 4:16 AM, Werdna said:

Like most talking on this thread, I got into a 49er as an adult (#921/sliders, carbon rig).  I'm a fan of the TASAR, the books and the boats that came from the Bethwaite stable. Between schedules and finding another adult that likes to swim my 49er does not get sailed a lot.

With the enthusiasm here - maybe there is interest (and a Bethwaite involvement) for a OD or development class - sort of filling the 59er gap.

Andrew

Before the FX came out, we faced the same conundrum. 

After sailing a 29er with my son I was stuck with it when we moved to an area with only river sailing (from Sydney with its harbour and Pittwater).

The bottom line was the 29er didn't work for us. It lacked the power to go and play in the tide/current before the wind was over 12 knots. Up till then we were trying to run square in the shallows with the two sail classes; very unpleasant.

But the 49er was too big and powerful for the river. You'd be bouncing off each shore every 30 seconds. We needed something in the middle. Preferably twin wired with a masthead kite to give good downwind power, but more stable and not as fast as the 49er. I doubt he'll remember it, but because I was involved in the 29er's I had cause to correspond with Julian and even incidentally raised the need with him (not that I hold against him the fact he didn't rush into production something to fit our needs)

Had the FX been out, it might have been a solution, but it wasn't. But it was also designed for two lighter women, so wouldn't have been perfect anyway.

We eventually found an Australian class - Formula 15 - that perfectly fitted the bill. Not quite as hard to keep upright and generally master as the 49er. And the nice thing is when you get that happy medium, you get a good number of boats out racing with the club every Sunday. It carries a good range of weights well (although we do have a problem when we get two light women wanting to sail together) and one design enough that the racing is close enough that they often consist of one long tacking and gybing battle involving all the tactical skills and just plain cunning you can muster. And people seeing that want to join in the fun. Trouble is, there haven't been that many build and we have trouble finding second hand boats to meet the demand. Picture below.

Had the FX been out at that time, it might have been a different ending and we are certainly looking at the FX as a solution for some of the lighter crew combinations coming through our training skiff program.

 

73423449_2565434510243252_155028304838000640_o.jpg

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On 1/11/2021 at 11:04 AM, Tubes said:

I, personally, would LOVE to see what an I14 designed by Julian would look like in 2020. Bonus points to see how his rig would compare to current conventions. But that might be too far of a thread drift...

 

OK, people, I am a devote minimalist, so my attitude to a I14 hull shape is to focus on the lowest drag up-wind variant that I can.

Again, in case it has escaped people’s attention, you spend roughly ¾ ‘s of your sailing life going up-wind, so to focus a hull shape on anything but going up-wind is futile or stupid!

You would then make minor mods to that hull to a) make it mangle-able downwind & b) make it fast downwind (and in that order).

Point being, the being in the tide is very slow, so being able to hang onto a relatively large downwind sail area, is fundamental, a 2nd order factor will be to go ½ knot faster.

Very probably you would not carry max mast height, but I have not even looked at the rules.

From what I understand the spinnaker area is stupidly out of proportion to the boat/rig so very likely not max sail area, and again, up-wind performance is an absolute priority so the rig would be design around that, so unlikely to have the stupidly big jibs, have far more automatic rigs, not sure you should bother with adjustable rig tension, but adjustable Caps has merit and a lot simpler.

But what would I know!~

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Rig height has a unexpectedly large impact on righting. The weight  and the cig is obvious, but actually breaking the sail out of the water is surprisingly hard.  I built an IC rig that was a meter taller.  I broke a few daggerboards righting the boat. So I think the 49er mast will be too tall.SHC

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12 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

Rig height has a unexpectedly large impact on righting. The weight  and the cig is obvious, but actually breaking the sail out of the water is surprisingly hard.  I built an IC rig that was a meter taller.  I broke a few daggerboards righting the boat. So I think the 49er mast will be too tall.SHC

Absolutely!

Wouldn´t even try to right a 49er with full rig, if single handing.

Because of this the idea af adding a lead bulb came up.

If single handing and hiking from 1m wings and a SA of ca 14sqm, it would probably work.  The bulb should then be as efficient as a second crew when righting in case of capsize.

My suggested solution above is to add a 50kg lead bulb, hiking from 0,65 wings with crew, making it a sports boat. Cutting down SA to 19sqm(13,3+5,7) is then probably needed. One could go full rig if making the wings wider, but it would be not be practical for those of us with bodies having passed best-before-date.

 

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Hi All, and Steve, this is scary, I'm agreeing with you.   That can't happen!!!!!!!

Some of you are asking me quite particular questions, so I will do my best to answer.

The 1st assumption is that you will be using pre-loved 49er hulls, highly likely they have gone soft, and what that means is that the gunwale joint is starting to flex, particularly around the shroud base.   There are 2 things you can do to fix that.   That most brutal is put a compression strut across the boat, it need to be straight, bit of 50mm (2”) by 2mm WT alloy tube, with some plates welded onto it and then bolt it through the gunwale with say 4 x M6 bolts per side.   It will be about 150mm behind the shrouds (if you still want to get the board up) and that’s OK, it will still lock the boat up substantially.

The second thing you can do, and this is a bit more tricky, is “in-fill” the gunwales internally.

image.png.dcdb1351b04fdb0932083124e53adb3f.png

So your shrouds are at the end of the 30° angled frame.   The wings are at the end of the perpendicular frame.

You get the boat, put it on it’s side with the deck canted inwards, drill a M6 hole through the hull laminate (because its much easier to repair, go buy a dirty big syringe(s) from your local pharmacy and inject some epoxy with has been thickened out with Q-Cell and Aero-cell 3:1 ration, keep it thin enough that it’s easy to inject, and yes there will be 3 injections per side, you will have to re-position the boat 3 times to get gravity to put the bog where you want it.

If your worried about saltwater contamination, bit of acetone or methylene-chloride, let it flash off but it will freshen up the surface inside wonderfully.

The one going fwd, I have drawn a bit short, probably wants to be 3 times that length (for-aft) and inwards 50mm would make a world of difference.

So what am I saying this, because by the time you put alloy wings on the boat, and 50-60kgs of lead and a longer fin/keel, your not going to plane up-wind, so rig-tension is going to be important.

Carrying on from the above point, up-wind speed is going to be slower, so you need a longer fin, the present one goes into the water about 1.2m, you are going to need something about 1.6-1.7m.   You really want to keep this to a minimum because it will cruel your downwind performance, if it is longer than it has to be.

Someone mentioned 50-60kgs, I doubt that would self-right, I have not done the maths and you need to get a NA to do that.   2 completely different issues here, #1 is to slow the boat down, so you have a good time the other (2) is to self-right in the case of the inevitable capsize.

I said 40kgs the other day, 50-60kgs will make the boat more pedestrian, and it dose not take a lot to "back it off a few notches".

Quite a few years back, on Vivace, we did capsize, and even with 160kgs, it still took 2 of us on the fin to get it back up.

Wing angle, back in the 18teen days it was 17° from the bottom of the centre-case to the tip of the wings.   49er is 15°.

Wing clearance (at gunwhale above WL) 250mm 10-12” is what you need to avoid most of the waves, less will be annoying, more will be excessive.

Wing tube size, your into B14 stuff now, 60 x 2mm works especially if you locally reinforce it as it goes over the gunwale,   There is 64mm tube around and it works well for reinforcing.

Wing width, this is very much a double edge sword, the very fastest 18teen where 17ft span, they where not 21ft or 33ft.   Has to do with ergonomics, how quick you can move.   Existing 49er is approx. 10ft wide.   To go much beyond 11-12ft (without trapeze) would be counter productive in all likely hood.   Yes they should be filled in, chickapea or dense net.   Body swung, sure, but it’s exponential as you get wider, so wings need to be stronger so heavier and you end up chasing your tail.

Going back to the first point, you will be down on speed, so you are likely to have to stack the nose down, so front wing tube in front of the shrouds is not a dumb idea.

Rig,. As there are plenty of FX rigs about and 2nd hand ones are about to become more plentiful, why would you go anywhere else.

                       jB

 

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Our hull is sailed less than two seasons,  so I guess it is still OK. But will anyway add the 50x2 tube. Have used 50x2 excusively on my earlier tried wings from 65 to 110cm width, both single handed and with crew, allthough all of them have had their frontend hanging from the trapeze wire. The 45x45mm nets are OK, but next one will be with trampoline fabric. Works great anyway :-) .

8910E507-222B-4489-9600-EE8E9AAC7CEB.jpeg

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15 hours ago, JulianB said:

Rig,. As there are plenty of FX rigs about and 2nd hand ones are about to become more plentiful, why would you go anywhere else.

                       jB

 

Dumb question Julian, but you know the issue is close to my heart.

Why are they about to become more plentiful?

Does that apply to Australia too?

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I would propose not putting wings on the boat and using a 29er or equivalent rig.

The boat will be lighter, rather than heavier.  

Less stability will reduce loads.   

Lighter will mean less power necessary.

i would have to compare wetted surface numbers, but a lighter 49er won’t have to be trimmed as radically bow down in light air., and might be plenty quick with a small rig.

I’m a long boat restricted sail area guy, so I don’t do Australian.

Julian, the biggest roadblock in I14 hulls is the midlength beam/ rise of floor rule.  You really don’t want to have the largest cross section at mid length, so this causes all sorts of distortions (I think the NS14 has the same problem.) instead of drawing the fastest hull, you end up trying to design the least horrible bumps you can put on that fast hull. Really isn’t the kind of fun I like to have.  But t foil rudders are lots of fun....

SHC

 

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Hi Steve, Yes the NS dose have that but they recently relaxed it, and some very wired and wonderful (and I mean that in the nicest possible way before I get pilloried again) shapes have evolved.

Got way too much on at the moment, next 3 years are blocked out and I am almost as old as you (but I will never catch you, you can be happy about that), so I14, is a project too far.

Rambler, the new CST mast (because Southerns “pulled the pin”) is months away, so post Tokyo, they will all do the big switch.   Non-Olympic 49ers are starting now, FX will be close behind, so there will be some great SS FX masts and sails, which will be wonderful, and for a smallish incentive, I am sure they can be picked up.

Need to stress, the old SS/North FX mast and sails, have no class limitation re there use, but IOC/WS will require the new CST mast/sail package to be used in Paris onwards.   49er likewise.

                 jB

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1 hour ago, JulianB said:

Rambler, the new CST mast (because Southerns “pulled the pin”) is months away, so post Tokyo, they will all do the big switch.   Non-Olympic 49ers are starting now, FX will be close behind, so there will be some great SS FX masts and sails, which will be wonderful, and for a smallish incentive, I am sure they can be picked up.

Need to stress, the old SS/North FX mast and sails, have no class limitation re there use, but IOC/WS will require the new CST mast/sail package to be used in Paris onwards.   49er likewise.

                 jB

Thanks Julian. I don't think anyone coming through my training group is going to be realistically worrying about the Paris Olympics (although I should never underestimate them), and if they are, they can buy their own boat :rolleyes:

I'm just keeping an eye out for how to put together a cheap but solid (fixed wing) and not too out of date, FX to add to my training fleet. Compared to the active Australian FX fleet (judging from Australian entries in the Geelong Worlds), there's a lot for sale at the moment, but they're far from cheap; well at least compared to other potential boats I might think about and bearing in mind I do the training for free and its all out of my money.

But we've got a lot of women coming through the training at the moment and I don't have any spots I can guide them into when they're 'race worthy' (which in training parlance, basically just means they're good enough to get you around a course on a reasonable day). It would be pretty nice if we could get an active FX race fleet for paired up lighter women alongside our Fifteen one.

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Mix & Match.

Get a old 49er, and drop a OK FX rig onto it.    It fits, no extra work.

But your right, there seems to be a up-tick in the hi-end Int/Olympic classes at present, it's not easy!

                      jB

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image.png.3351e2a612388e642c07c28e3435c70c.png

Dose that help???   Those would be CoE's of the jib/main combinations.

the new 49er rig and the new FX rig, the 2020 rigs as opposed to the 2008 rigs, CoE won't change.

Jib's are ostensible the same, 49er Main is being tweaked but only by 50mm, FX main - no-change.

Luff-curves will be different by 2-3mm "probably" (I can't believe anyone can get it that close)

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14 hours ago, JulianB said:

 

Dose that help???   Those would be CoE's of the jib/main combinations.

the new 49er rig and the new FX rig, the 2020 rigs as opposed to the 2008 rigs, CoE won't change.

Jib's are ostensible the same, 49er Main is being tweaked but only by 50mm, FX main - no-change.

Luff-curves will be different by 2-3mm "probably" (I can't believe anyone can get it that close)

Thanks Julian, that helped a quite a bit. I actually wanted the figures of the pre-carbon/elliptical main rig, as this is what we play with. 

I have also realized that my old RM/Designwind spreadsheet have a few  errors, so I would really appreciate the correct 49er beam figures, both with and w/o wings. 

old49er.PNG

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Beam wings out = approx 10ft

Hull width alone is 1.72m   ( meant to be 1.69m = Asian towing width but the late great Ovigy  f--kup)

Original pin head rig, far harder to help, that will take some digging.  Square head we grew 170mm to compensate for the weight reduction, plus we wanted to up crew weight, and that worked near perfcetly.    Pretty obviously it's going to be somewhere around 4250, but that also assumes you use the existing fin, which I doubt will be big enough.

                             jB

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Thanks Julian, my guesstimate was 4200mm. No need to dig deeper into this subject. I have used 20sqm SA for the pinhead and 21,2sqm for the carbon rig.

Have now gotten the info needed to go on with the project, thanks again.

 

 

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