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Good day, 

I recently purchased a new mainsail for my 34' racer-cruiser one-off. One of my primary objectives in upgrading the main was to get a lighter sail. I discussed this at length with a few lofts and sail designers. Where I ended up purchasing, they gave me an estimated bag weight of 14.9 kg. The sail arrived weighing 20.6kg. That seems like a massive difference, and heavier than what I currently have. Before reaching out to the loft, I'm curious to know if anyone has had a similar experience and what was done.

This situation is quite frustrating, given that if I had known that the new sail would weigh this much, I would have gone with something else. Now I've spent $8k for a sail that is not what I was told I was getting and is not something I can resell easily because it is unlikely to fit many other boats out there. Thoughts? 

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I guess I'm not clear on the problem.  A difference of 12-1/2 lbs on a 34-foot racer/cruiser doesn't seem that important. And might easily be driven by things like your choice of battens, reinforcing, luff-slider hardware, headboard, etc.

What's important are things like..... does it fit the rig?  does it have good shape?  does it hold that shape across a range of conditions?  is it the cloth you chose (weight, material, quality)? does it have the configuration (battens, reefs) you wanted?  Is it well-made?

$.02

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9 minutes ago, sailman said:

When they estimated the weight was that for a race main or cruising main?  Did it have reef points?  Full length battens?  Your original post isn’t enough to go on.

The bag weight estimate was accompanied by a quote with the sail material, reef points and batten configuration all defined. The intended purpose of the sail is to race and cruise. I was inclined to go with a higher-end sail that is durable enough to cruise but also suitable for occasional races. The loft encouraged me to go with one of their cruising sails on the premise that the loads on my boat would not require low stretch materials and that the cruising line could be made light enough and stiff enough to satisfy my performance interests (FWIW, it's a 3di 330).  

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24 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I guess I'm not clear on the problem.  A difference of 12-1/2 lbs on a 34-foot racer/cruiser doesn't seem that important. And might easily be driven by things like your choice of battens, reinforcing, luff-slider hardware, headboard, etc.

What's important are things like..... does it fit the rig?  does it have good shape?  does it hold that shape across a range of conditions?  is it the cloth you chose (weight, material, quality)? does it have the configuration (battens, reefs) you wanted?  Is it well-made?

$.02

I certainly agree with you that all of those other considerations are essential. The problem is that I would have gone for another sail had I known that there would be no weight savings with this new one. That is why weight was a central part of the conversation with the salesperson and designer, and was told to expect a 20% reduction in weight. 

If I had purchased a battery that has a capacity of 80% of what was advertised, I'd take it back and get it replaced, regardless of how well-built it was. 

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That’s too bad. When I have a new sail built I go with the recommendation of the sailmaker. Panel weights for 330 are known and the weight of battens and other items are known as well. Should have been an easy calculation. Perhaps you can have them alter the batten thickness and pocket construction to lower the weight aloft

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18 minutes ago, DtM said:

That is a 35% increase in weight over the estimate. The sailmaker needs to justify that in my view.

38% by my calc.

Excess weight / quoted weight

20.6-14.9 = 5.7

5.7 / 14.9 = 0.3825

That's getting a long way from the quoted weight.

 

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I too was surprised by the weight of my new the 3di 330 headsail.  However, the weight issue is made up by the fact the shape is really good and sail has a larger wind range then the high end dacron radial sail it replaced.  I also believe it will last 3 times longer. That said doing it again I would go for  the 760 material.  Sorry, blown expectations suck.

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2 hours ago, Will_Co said:

Good day, 

I recently purchased a new mainsail for my 34' racer-cruiser one-off. One of my primary objectives in upgrading the main was to get a lighter sail. I discussed this at length with a few lofts and sail designers. Where I ended up purchasing, they gave me an estimated bag weight of 14.9 kg. The sail arrived weighing 20.6kg. That seems like a massive difference, and heavier than what I currently have. Before reaching out to the loft, I'm curious to know if anyone has had a similar experience and what was done.

This situation is quite frustrating, given that if I had known that the new sail would weigh this much, I would have gone with something else. Now I've spent $8k for a sail that is not what I was told I was getting and is not something I can resell easily because it is unlikely to fit many other boats out there. Thoughts? 

Thats a steep price for a mainsail.

 

51 minutes ago, George Hackett said:

Eight thousand dollars for a mainsail for a thirty foot sailboat? 

My thought exactly

 

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1 hour ago, Will_Co said:

19.5kg. 

so, the new rag is practically the weight of the old one? someone messed things big time...

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I still haven't heard why the weight matters.

If it was a different cloth-weight than I wanted, sure, I'd want it made right.

But "bag-weight" wouldn't be anywhere in the top 25 things I'd care about with a new main.  Let alone the #1 thing.

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4 hours ago, Will_Co said:

Good day, 

I recently purchased a new mainsail for my 34' racer-cruiser one-off. One of my primary objectives in upgrading the main was to get a lighter sail. I discussed this at length with a few lofts and sail designers. Where I ended up purchasing, they gave me an estimated bag weight of 14.9 kg. The sail arrived weighing 20.6kg. That seems like a massive difference, and heavier than what I currently have. Before reaching out to the loft, I'm curious to know if anyone has had a similar experience and what was done.

This situation is quite frustrating, given that if I had known that the new sail would weigh this much, I would have gone with something else. Now I've spent $8k for a sail that is not what I was told I was getting and is not something I can resell easily because it is unlikely to fit many other boats out there. Thoughts? 

In the case of Trump University, trial court awarded $25,000,000 in damages to the bilked consumers.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/10/politics/trump-university-settlement-finalized-trnd/index.html

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32 minutes ago, glass said:

In the case of Trump University, trial court awarded $25,000,000 in damages to the bilked consumers.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/10/politics/trump-university-settlement-finalized-trnd/index.html

After spending $24,900,000 in legal fees. Your point?

I tend to agree that weight is a secondary priority on a new main. Much more critical on the headsails simply as they are larger and get handled differently. Still, I would want an explanation and maybe some sort of compensation. 3Di has gotten pricey..

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My guess is the North salesman plucked a figure you’d be happy with. 3di 330 (Nordac) is still a developing product and in my opinion hasn’t fully reached engineered maturity yet. It could have been beefed up to counter stretch issues, we have forwarded a few 3di 330 sails on for a full wash and service and there has been mold inside the membrane of the sail itself and can’t be removed, North know about this and they may have found a solution which may have added some weight but who really knows. It depends on how passionate you are about the weight and what your negotiation skills are like. A good friend of mine was messed around by North and he had their trousers down over it, being the worlds largest sailmaker they have the ability to offer huge discounts, just saying!

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I don’t know 3di 

with conventional panel sails the various  construction cloths and hardware don’t  come in an infinite number of sizes ,  weights 

the sail designer simply picks the materials suitable for your application 

this  suitable cloth, hardware  could be on the heavy side to avoid using the next weight down that may be on the light side 

my last spectra  stitched Genoa was an exact replica  of the old sail , but  finished out 2 kilo lighter than the original 

I suspect  more modern chafe panels and hardware caused the difference 

Very much hardware on a mainsail 

 

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14 hours ago, Will_Co said:

they gave me an estimated bag weight of 14.9 kg. The sail arrived weighing 20.6kg. That seems like a massive difference, and heavier than what I currently have. Before reaching out to the loft, I'm curious to know if anyone has had a similar experience and what was done.

Have i got this right?

  1. Weight was such a crucial issue that you sought a weight estimate before placing the order
  2. You didn't make a check of actual weight before accepting delivery of the sail
  3. Even tho the sail was 38% overweight, you actually paid up the full price

If that's an accurate summary, why did you pay up?

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I'd be a bit miffed if they were that far off on a weight estimate.  Especially since you were comparing numbers before making a decision.  Maybe you can bend their arm to give you some carbon battens.  Or get a credit of $/kg based on original quote.

It still amazes me that as sailors we pay a high price for luxury items manufactured by industry experts and too often they either don't fit or are finished incorrectly.

However on the bright side - if the sail fits properly and the shape is good I think you will be happy with it.  Others I know have been extremely happy with the shape holding longevity of the 3di.  Especially for club racing.  Some justification of the higher cost.

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I guess I don't understand why the weight matters to you for that type of boat. Especially on a racer/cruiser that you say you only occasionally race. I get it if the only intention of that sail is to race and your cool with replacing it every two years. Proper shape, trim and durability will be much more important.

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12 hours ago, sledracr said:

I still haven't heard why the weight matters.

If it was a different cloth-weight than I wanted, sure, I'd want it made right.

But "bag-weight" wouldn't be anywhere in the top 25 things I'd care about with a new main.  Let alone the #1 thing.

Bag weight is the only method North would provide to compare 3Di to conventional sails because the density of the fibre in a 3Di sail is variable. While imprecise, it does give some idea of your weight aloft.  

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12 hours ago, F18 Sailor said:

After spending $24,900,000 in legal fees. Your point?

I tend to agree that weight is a secondary priority on a new main. Much more critical on the headsails simply as they are larger and get handled differently. Still, I would want an explanation and maybe some sort of compensation. 3Di has gotten pricey..

Would you care to provide a link to your source of information as  to $24, 900,000 in legal fees or are just another hoodwinked Trump toadie ?

https://www.signswithanattitude.com/monkeys-will-throw-feces-sign.htm

That is precisely my point.

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Have i got this right?

  1. Weight was such a crucial issue that you sought a weight estimate before placing the order
  2. You didn't make a check of actual weight before accepting delivery of the sail
  3. Even tho the sail was 38% overweight, you actually paid up the full price

If that's an accurate summary, why did you pay up?

Sure 

the goal is lightest weight sail  for intended service 

the OP should speak with the sailmaker and clarify the issue 

i suspect marketing got in the way of reality 

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24 minutes ago, 'Bacco said:

I guess I don't understand why the weight matters to you for that type of boat. Especially on a racer/cruiser that you say you only occasionally race. I get it if the only intention of that sail is to race and your cool with replacing it every two years. Proper shape, trim and durability will be much more important.

Well, weight matters for racers and cruisers. Shape, trim and durability are of course important. But let's say I buy a new boat whose listed displacement in the marketing materials is 10,000 lbs. It is delivered weighing 13,000 lbs. It's hardly a defense for the boatbuilder to say that it's hull shape is cutting edge, has excellent ballast to displacement ratio, sail area to displacement ratio and is made of extremely durable materials. 

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Have i got this right?

  1. Weight was such a crucial issue that you sought a weight estimate before placing the order
  2. You didn't make a check of actual weight before accepting delivery of the sail
  3. Even tho the sail was 38% overweight, you actually paid up the full price

If that's an accurate summary, why did you pay up?

Payment is required in full before the sail is delivered. 

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14 minutes ago, Will_Co said:

Well, weight matters for racers and cruisers. Shape, trim and durability are of course important. But let's say I buy a new boat whose listed displacement in the marketing materials is 10,000 lbs. It is delivered weighing 13,000 lbs. It's hardly a defense for the boatbuilder to say that it's hull shape is cutting edge, has excellent ballast to displacement ratio, sail area to displacement ratio and is made of extremely durable materials. 

I've known a few guys who bought boats and were screwed on the displacement issue.

But from my conversations, with Kevin Miller at North, on the 3di, he said it is probably the last time you will have to replace that sail provided you do not flog it to death.

I also know someone who bought a couple of 3di for a 35' and spent more than what I have in total into my boat. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the cost of these sails.
 

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38 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

 

But from my conversations, with Kevin Miller at North, on the 3di, he said it is probably the last time you will have to replace that sail provided you do not flog it to death.
 

I did a race ~2 years ago with a North sailmaker on board to check out the new 3di sails.  He credibly explained that UV is not a problem for these sails due to materials.  But I still don't get how they can predict a much longer life that any previous products until the sails have been around for a while.  This wasn't a super thick VO70 sail either.  Seemed fairly normal weight for the size.

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I guess I'm not clear on the problem.

The problem is they didn't deliver what they spec'd.   If he stated that was one of his main goals (weight reduction) then they need to make good in the correct product or reduction of $$$ or full refund.   But of course if it wasn't in writing......   difficult.

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I grabbed my old and new mainsails in their bags and weighed them. The mainsail on my boat is about 300 sq ft (J/32).     The old Quantum crosscut full batten main + sailbag, but the tides sail track slides removed weighs 47 lbs.    The Nordac 3Di full batten main + sailbag + tides sail track slides + dutchman lines weighs 44 lbs.   The slides probably add around 2-3 pounds and the dutchman gear add a similar amount of weight  so the difference is probably around 8 lbs.

(the dutchman gear includes the monofilament lines, the topping lift segment, and the clamp blocks and stops that attach the monofilament lines to the topping lift.)

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I still don't get the "why".  Why is 12 lbs on a 34-foot racer/cruiser so important that it ruins the perceived value of the new sail?

It is clearly more important than fit, shape, construction, quality, durability, etc, etc, etc, because the OP hasn't  evaluated any of those.  The sail hasn't been on the boat yet, maybe hasn't even been out of the bag....it's only been weighed.   Seems...bizarre to me.  If this were a high-end racing program on a state-of-the-art custom build.... yeah, I could see caring about the weight.  Along with a whole lot of other factors.  But I'd still care - first - about whether or not the sail made the boat go.

It's like saying..... yeah, my new girlfriend might be awesome but she weighs 12 pounds more than I think she should so I don't want her.  Doesn't matter that she is gorgeous, has an awesome personality, is smart and well-read and fascinating to talk with, is a great person and takes wonderful care of me, dances while making me french toast in the galley, is the kind of girl you take home to meet mom, and yet a tigress in bed, perfect for me in every way... but... that 12 pounds.  yeah, that is totally a deal-breaker.

What am I missing?

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23 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I still don't get the "why".  Why is 12 lbs on a 34-foot racer/cruiser so important that it ruins the perceived value of the new sail?

It is clearly more important than fit, shape, construction, quality, durability, etc, etc, etc, because the OP hasn't  evaluated any of those.  The sail hasn't been on the boat yet, maybe hasn't even been out of the bag....it's only been weighed.   Seems...bizarre to me.  If this were a high-end racing program on a state-of-the-art custom build.... yeah, I could see caring about the weight.  Along with a whole lot of other factors.  But I'd still care - first - about whether or not the sail made the boat go.

It's like saying..... yeah, my new girlfriend might be awesome but she weighs 12 pounds more than I think she should so I don't want her.  Doesn't matter that she is gorgeous, has an awesome personality, is smart and well-read and fascinating to talk with, is a great person and takes wonderful care of me, dances while making me french toast in the galley, is the kind of girl you take home to meet mom, and yet a tigress in bed, perfect for me in every way... but... that 12 pounds.  yeah, that is totally a deal-breaker.

What am I missing?

Leaving aside the question of how much it impacts performance (because that is hard to know without testing), part of the issue is misrepresenting the product that was ultimately delivered. Imagine the sail was delivered in the wrong colour. That has nothing to do with performance. Is there still no reason to complain?

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42 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I still don't get the "why".  Why is 12 lbs on a 34-foot racer/cruiser so important that it ruins the perceived value of the new sail?

It is clearly more important than fit, shape, construction, quality, durability, etc, etc, etc, because the OP hasn't  evaluated any of those.  The sail hasn't been on the boat yet, maybe hasn't even been out of the bag....it's only been weighed.   Seems...bizarre to me.  If this were a high-end racing program on a state-of-the-art custom build.... yeah, I could see caring about the weight.  Along with a whole lot of other factors.  But I'd still care - first - about whether or not the sail made the boat go.

It's like saying..... yeah, my new girlfriend might be awesome but she weighs 12 pounds more than I think she should so I don't want her.  Doesn't matter that she is gorgeous, has an awesome personality, is smart and well-read and fascinating to talk with, is a great person and takes wonderful care of me, dances while making me french toast in the galley, is the kind of girl you take home to meet mom, and yet a tigress in bed, perfect for me in every way... but... that 12 pounds.  yeah, that is totally a deal-breaker.

What am I missing?

I guess you don't race a lot?  Every ounce counts, especially aloft.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I still don't get the "why".  Why is 12 lbs on a 34-foot racer/cruiser so important that it ruins the perceived value of the new sail?

It is clearly more important than fit, shape, construction, quality, durability, etc, etc, etc, because the OP hasn't  evaluated any of those.  The sail hasn't been on the boat yet, maybe hasn't even been out of the bag....it's only been weighed.   Seems...bizarre to me.  If this were a high-end racing program on a state-of-the-art custom build.... yeah, I could see caring about the weight.  Along with a whole lot of other factors.  But I'd still care - first - about whether or not the sail made the boat go.

It's like saying..... yeah, my new girlfriend might be awesome but she weighs 12 pounds more than I think she should so I don't want her.  Doesn't matter that she is gorgeous, has an awesome personality, is smart and well-read and fascinating to talk with, is a great person and takes wonderful care of me, dances while making me french toast in the galley, is the kind of girl you take home to meet mom, and yet a tigress in bed, perfect for me in every way... but... that 12 pounds.  yeah, that is totally a deal-breaker.

What am I missing?

That is 12 lbs aloft.  Estimating that the center of mass of the main is ~18' up, that extra 12 lbs is over 200 ft-lbs

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I suspect what happened is that the salesman quoted ‘25% weight reduction for 3Di vs 3DL’, which is the standard patter, but is only true for the Raw with carbon (780?). Nordac is still, as the name implies, a dacron sail, just made with some of the same tech as 3Di to give it better shape holding properties. 

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5 minutes ago, SEC16518 said:

I guess you don't race a lot?  Every ounce counts, especially aloft.

I don't, anymore.  For a lot of years, it's all I did.  At times on some very weight-conscious programs.

But I've never lost a race because the main weighed 12lbs more than expected.  Boats can and do lose races if their main is the wrong size, the wrong shape, the wrong luff-curve, etc, etc, but we're not hearing anything about any of those.  ONLY the weight.

And, on a 34-foot racer-cruiser.  Random guess, lets call it a J105, that's about, what, 8000 lbs empty, probably well over 9000 with sails, electronics, equipment and crew?  That 12 lbs represents roughly a 10th of a percent (0.001) of the net on-the-course weight of the boat.  IMNSHO, far less likely to be impactful on race results than, for example, a single blown tack or a late response to a shift.  Let alone a sail that's the wrong shape.

Presumably, if the OP is THIS concerned about weight, he/she has already done every other conceivable thing to pull weight out of the boat.  Empty lockers, minimum equipment, skeletonized spreaders, wireless instrument package, stripped halyards, and a mandate that the crew choose boots or shoes, not both.  Right?

Feh.

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18 hours ago, ExOmo said:

Well did it at least fit?  Or did someone make the boom too short or the mast too long?

Another experience with a Sailmaker's bungee cord tape measure, imaginary numbers, and remarkable quality control?  

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If it fits well, is fast and easy to trim, I would forgive the weight, for while i will save all weight up top that I can, I always seem to want a more stable and repeatable low stretch flying shape for sails.  The sailmaker knows you want a light sail, but also knows you want a good durable sail, so he blends the 2 competing factors in the best way he knows how, and you now have the product of that experiance.

What is the sailmaking equivalent of the cook spitting on your main course, when you send it back to the kitchen for some perceived imperfection?  He will sell you a triangle of polytarp, boasting it weights less than 10 lbs?

 

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4 hours ago, Will_Co said:
6 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Have i got this right?

  1. Weight was such a crucial issue that you sought a weight estimate before placing the order
  2. You didn't make a check of actual weight before accepting delivery of the sail
  3. Even tho the sail was 38% overweight, you actually paid up the full price

If that's an accurate summary, why did you pay up?

Payment is required in full before the sail is delivered. 

I dunno where in the world you are.  But in Ireland or the UK, there are fitness-for-purpose rules.  You were promised a sail that would be significantly lighter than the old one, but  you didn't get that ... so the sail is not fit for the purpose for which it was sold.

If you didn't get to inspect the sail before a delivery to your home, then it's a distance-selling issue.  That gives you extra rights to reject the goods.

However, you wrote about "reaching out to the loft", a linguistiic horror which negates all your statutory rights 

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5 hours ago, CerveloR5 said:

That's what I was thinking, what a waste of money

The 3di sails are bought for shape performance, they are for a target market with the money justification to burn. They do deliver amazing performance but at a commensurate 'amazing' price.  They should also not wind up being almost 40% over weight.

We had a screecher quoted for our F36/39 trimaran. The 'high' performance option sails were very different in cost!  The North 3di being almost 4X (3.89 times) as expensive as the sail we chose using Evolution Sails own laminate. I'd had experience with North's  3DL sails on a boat used for only racing and seen how far off the mark that the marketing department can go.... So chose not to go down the path of 3di sails until their cruising-life longevity is proven out. I (unfortunately) don't trust that North will follow thru and make things wright after my experience with the 3DL.

I've attached the sail quotes for our boat to show the spread in costs for what are essentially race worthy sails that have good shape holding abilities for a somewhat higher performance boat like ours.    SailQuotes 2020.pdfSailQuotes 2020.pdfSailQuotes 2020.pdfSailQuotes 2020.pdfSailQuotes 2020.pdf

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A little off-topic, but after many years of staying away from North, I have a 3di main and #3 jib. The support I've gotten on both has been nothing less than fantastic. I weighed my main compared to a carbon panel sail that it replaced. Carbon: 28.6 lbs w/ battens, 3di 34.6 lbs w/battens. I had hoped the 3di would be lighter but honestly it is a much better sail than what I had.

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2 hours ago, sledracr said:

I don't, anymore.  For a lot of years, it's all I did.  At times on some very weight-conscious programs.

But I've never lost a race because the main weighed 12lbs more than expected.  Boats can and do lose races if their main is the wrong size, the wrong shape, the wrong luff-curve, etc, etc, but we're not hearing anything about any of those.  ONLY the weight.

And, on a 34-foot racer-cruiser.  Random guess, lets call it a J105, that's about, what, 8000 lbs empty, probably well over 9000 with sails, electronics, equipment and crew?  That 12 lbs represents roughly a 10th of a percent (0.001) of the net on-the-course weight of the boat.  IMNSHO, far less likely to be impactful on race results than, for example, a single blown tack or a late response to a shift.  Let alone a sail that's the wrong shape.

Presumably, if the OP is THIS concerned about weight, he/she has already done every other conceivable thing to pull weight out of the boat.  Empty lockers, minimum equipment, skeletonized spreaders, wireless instrument package, stripped halyards, and a mandate that the crew choose boots or shoes, not both.  Right?

Feh.

No, I haven’t. But it’s valid to care about weight in some respect, without caring about weight in every respect. A boat is floating compromise. 

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2 hours ago, SEC16518 said:

I guess you don't race a lot?  Every ounce counts, especially aloft.

 

 

It is not 12 lbs at the tip top of the mast 

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2 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:
8 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

If that's an accurate summary, why did you pay up?

He's Canadian, it would have been rude to not pay up.

If he's Canadian, then the penalty for "reaching out" has to be increased. 

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2 hours ago, sledracr said:

I don't, anymore.  For a lot of years, it's all I did.  At times on some very weight-conscious programs.

But I've never lost a race because the main weighed 12lbs more than expected.  Boats can and do lose races if their main is the wrong size, the wrong shape, the wrong luff-curve, etc, etc, but we're not hearing anything about any of those.  ONLY the weight.

And, on a 34-foot racer-cruiser.  Random guess, lets call it a J105, that's about, what, 8000 lbs empty, probably well over 9000 with sails, electronics, equipment and crew?  That 12 lbs represents roughly a 10th of a percent (0.001) of the net on-the-course weight of the boat.  IMNSHO, far less likely to be impactful on race results than, for example, a single blown tack or a late response to a shift.  Let alone a sail that's the wrong shape.

Presumably, if the OP is THIS concerned about weight, he/she has already done every other conceivable thing to pull weight out of the boat.  Empty lockers, minimum equipment, skeletonized spreaders, wireless instrument package, stripped halyards, and a mandate that the crew choose boots or shoes, not both.  Right?

Feh.

I totally agree, but a lot of people are crazy about this type of shit......I had a sail maker almost refuse to make me a "racing" sail if I installed it on my existing tides track due to the weight issue.

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3 hours ago, sledracr said:

I don't, anymore.  For a lot of years, it's all I did.  At times on some very weight-conscious programs.

But I've never lost a race because the main weighed 12lbs more than expected.  Boats can and do lose races if their main is the wrong size, the wrong shape, the wrong luff-curve, etc, etc, but we're not hearing anything about any of those.  ONLY the weight.

And, on a 34-foot racer-cruiser.  Random guess, lets call it a J105, that's about, what, 8000 lbs empty, probably well over 9000 with sails, electronics, equipment and crew?  That 12 lbs represents roughly a 10th of a percent (0.001) of the net on-the-course weight of the boat.  IMNSHO, far less likely to be impactful on race results than, for example, a single blown tack or a late response to a shift.  Let alone a sail that's the wrong shape.

Presumably, if the OP is THIS concerned about weight, he/she has already done every other conceivable thing to pull weight out of the boat.  Empty lockers, minimum equipment, skeletonized spreaders, wireless instrument package, stripped halyards, and a mandate that the crew choose boots or shoes, not both.  Right?

Feh.

Hard to explain sometimes that 1 bad tack, one missed wind shift makes a shit load more difference than what the OP is talking about.  If you don't want the sail take it back to the loft and tell them.  Go find another sailmaker who will build you a lighter under specced sail and make you happy, although it sounds like that might be difficult. Have you had any meaningful discussion with the sailmaker?  We used to have a magic wand that we would use to fix problems like yours, a few waves over the sail and fold it up, put it back in the bag and off went another happy customer.

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7 hours ago, glass said:

Would you care to provide a link to your source of information as  to $24, 900,000 in legal fees or are just another hoodwinked Trump toadie ?

https://www.signswithanattitude.com/monkeys-will-throw-feces-sign.htm

That is precisely my point.

Wow, some people can’t take a joke. To be clear, I am NOT a Trump supporter, but it is also pretty common for legal fees to amount to >50% of the settlement. Getting lawyers involved is always expensive and just one of America’s problems. More to the point, this has exactly fuck all to do with North sails or overweight mainsails.

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I dunno where in the world you are.  But in Ireland or the UK, there are fitness-for-purpose rules.  You were promised a sail that would be significantly lighter than the old one, but  you didn't get that ... so the sail is not fit for the purpose for which it was sold.

If you didn't get to inspect the sail before a delivery to your home, then it's a distance-selling issue.  That gives you extra rights to reject the goods.

However, you wrote about "reaching out to the loft", a linguistiic horror which negates all your statutory rights 

I think you have that backwards.  It is a breach of contract when when party fails to perform as promised.  In this case, according to the OP, the sail loft's quote contained a bag weight and the loft breached the contract by failing to provide a sail that is nowhere near the quoted bag weight.  You only have to get to fitness for intended purpose when the product fails to comply with a implied term and it would seem that the sail is likely fit for its intended purpose.

As for linquistic horror - agreed, and any marketing material containing the words "paradigm shifting".

From personal experience, it is really a bummer to have a salesman make product representations, then the final product is different, and then the salesperson claims that the difference is not significant.  

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8 hours ago, Will_Co said:

Payment is required in full before the sail is delivered. 

They've done this before ! Tell the customer what he wants to hear to get the order. Then get the money. Now it's your problem. Get a lawyer,go to court, age prematurely.....etc etc. I don't think so! If it's the issue that you say it is then all you can do is go back to them on the 'not to specification' argument. Failing that keep going with this thread . And Facebook and other Sailing websites.

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9 minutes ago, Team Subterfuge said:

I think you have that backwards.  It is a breach of contract when when party fails to perform as promised.  In this case, according to the OP, the sail loft's quote contained a bag weight and the loft breached the contract by failing to provide a sail that is nowhere near the quoted bag weight.  You only have to get to fitness for intended purpose when the product fails to comply with a implied term and it would seem that the sail is likely fit for its intended purpose.

Not sure that there is any "implied" issue here.  The OP's purpose was clear: wanted a lighter sail.  Loft promised that to the OP, but the OP didn't get that, so the sail is both a breach of contract and unfit for the OP's purpose.

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For fuck’s sake, just talk to your sales rep. Our new 3di raw main had a weird wrinkle in it that wouldn’t go away. It only hurt in light air. North let us use it for the season. A brand new replacement is now sitting in the owner’s basement, free of charge. 

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21 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Loft promised that to the OP, but the OP didn't get that, so the sail is both a breach of contract and unfit for the OP's purpose.

So, if I were a lawyer (I'm not.  you're welcome) I'd raise three questions

-- was that "estimated bag weight" documented in the contract?  As in "the sail will weigh no more than ___ when delivered"?  or was it just sales-patter?

-- was the weight based on cloth-weight, and later affected by other choices the purchaser made? (e.g. "oh, by the way, now that you've estimated the weight I'd like to add full-length battens, and a 3rd reef-point with reinforcing, and dog-bones at each luff-cringle, and tides-track luff hardware, and dutchman lines, and the offshore headboard, and....")

-- and, does the weight difference make the sail "unfit for purpose"?  In other words, is it still a competitive sail for a racer/cruiser, even with the extra 12 lbs, or can the plaintiff prove that those 12 lbs - alone - would make it materially impossible to be competitive.

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9 minutes ago, sledracr said:

So, if I were a lawyer (I'm not.  you're welcome) I'd raise three questions

-- was that "estimated bag weight" documented in the contract?  As in "the sail will weigh no more than ___ when delivered"?  or was it just sales-patter?

"sales patter" is part of a verbal contract.

9 minutes ago, sledracr said:

-- was the weight based on cloth-weight, and later affected by other choices the purchaser made? (e.g. "oh, by the way, now that you've estimated the weight I'd like to add full-length battens, and a 3rd reef-point with reinforcing, and dog-bones at each luff-cringle, and tides-track luff hardware, and dutchman lines, and the offshore headboard, and....")

We haven't seen the precise wording, but the OP does say bag weight, so it clearly wasn't a raw cloth weight.

9 minutes ago, sledracr said:

-- and, does the weight difference make the sail "unfit for purpose"?  In other words, is it still a competitive sail for a racer/cruiser, even with the extra 12 lbs, or can the plaintiff prove that those 12 lbs - alone - would make it materially impossible to be competitive.

As the OP describes it, part of their purpose was to get a new sail lighter than the old one.  That may not be the same purpose as other sailors, but it is part of the purpose of this buyer.

 

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18 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

"sales patter" is part of a verbal contract.

Not always.  There has to be a specific offer, terms and consideration.

If the sales person had said "I'll build you a sail that weighs no more than 15kg", yes, there's a valid case for enforceability.

If the sales person had said "sails with this cloth can be up to 20% lighter than traditional, I'll build you a nice sail, trust me"... that's much, much harder.  Not impossible, but winning that in court would likely cost more than the sail is worth.

ObNote, when the car salesman says "I can put you in a new car today for less than anyone else in town".... that's not an enforceable verbal contract.  What's enforceable is what's written on the purchase agreement that you sign, no matter what the salesperson says.  All your leverage ends the moment you sign it, agreeing to those terms.

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4 hours ago, F18 Sailor said:

Wow, some people can’t take a joke. To be clear, I am NOT a Trump supporter, but it is also pretty common for legal fees to amount to >50% of the settlement. Getting lawyers involved is always expensive and just one of America’s problems. More to the point, this has exactly fuck all to do with North sails or overweight mainsails.

There you go again making more unsubstantiated claims.

It has nothing to do with overweight mainsails but everything to do with your serious psychological problem of exaggeration that you share with Trump.

Now put down that shovel and climb out of that hole you dug yourself in before you get buried.

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3 hours ago, Team Subterfuge said:

 

From personal experience, it is really a bummer to have a salesman make product representations, then the final product is different, and then the salesperson claims that the difference is not significant.  

Have you ever tried a dating site?

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1 minute ago, Cal20sailor said:

I have and would be ecstatic if my expectation and reality were only off by 12 lbs.

So it was off by only 5% from what you were looking for?

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1 hour ago, VWAP said:

So it was off by only 5% from what you were looking for?

We don't know it if fits...maybe some mast maker made the rig taller in the middle of the night or some rigger came over made the boom shorter with a cordless sawzall and rivet gun one night....so many questions...

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It would probably have been better to just discuss this with the sailmaker rather than identifying them on an international sailing forum, at least until and unless they failed to make it right. Didn’t really give them a chance before airing the dirty laundry. 

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My opinion: If six kilos a couple of meters above the boom makes a difference (in anything but pride) you have a great amount of work to do in attention to weight reduction everywhere.  That is serious race prep level of weight control. 
 

Do you have a spreadsheet of weights and moment? Have you trimmed every kilo other possible? If not you should quit your rant.

That level of attention to detail also implies a racer that buys new sails every season. 

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For what it's worth, I have an early 2018 3DI NorDac main on my Frers 33- intended as a cruising/racing main. I don't know the equivalent material spec in the current line-up- mine was quoted as 16,800 DPI. I did not go with full battens, but even the full-battened quote was much lower than the OP's price, adjusted for $CDN. 

The sail was certainly heavier than the previous blown-out Doyle membrane race sail (purchased by P.O., so I don't know the material details. That said, it has held its shape perfectly over three years of heavy mixed use, and we have done extremely well with it in local races. I am very happy that we made the decision to buy it (felt kinda risky because it was the first full production year for 3DI NorDac.) 

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23 hours ago, sledracr said:

I still don't get the "why".  Why is 12 lbs on a 34-foot racer/cruiser so important that it ruins the perceived value of the new sail?

It is clearly more important than fit, shape, construction, quality, durability, etc, etc, etc, because the OP hasn't  evaluated any of those.  The sail hasn't been on the boat yet, maybe hasn't even been out of the bag....it's only been weighed.   Seems...bizarre to me.  If this were a high-end racing program on a state-of-the-art custom build.... yeah, I could see caring about the weight.  Along with a whole lot of other factors.  But I'd still care - first - about whether or not the sail made the boat go.

It's like saying..... yeah, my new girlfriend might be awesome but she weighs 12 pounds more than I think she should so I don't want her.  Doesn't matter that she is gorgeous, has an awesome personality, is smart and well-read and fascinating to talk with, is a great person and takes wonderful care of me, dances while making me french toast in the galley, is the kind of girl you take home to meet mom, and yet a tigress in bed, perfect for me in every way... but... that 12 pounds.  yeah, that is totally a deal-breaker.

What am I missing?

Since you're dumping her anyway, do me a solid and send her my way. 

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23 hours ago, sledracr said:

It's like saying..... yeah, my new girlfriend might be awesome but she weighs 12 pounds more than I think she should so I don't want her.  Doesn't matter that she is gorgeous, has an awesome personality, is smart and well-read and fascinating to talk with, is a great person and takes wonderful care of me, dances while making me french toast in the galley, is the kind of girl you take home to meet mom, and yet a tigress in bed, perfect for me in every way... but... that 12 pounds.  yeah, that is totally a deal-breaker.

What am I missing?

So this (girlfriend) has a weight 38% greater than advertised.

Interweb sez the average American female weighs 170.6 lbs.

https://www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/average-weight-for-women

Now add 38% (65), adjust for Canadian exchange rates, then convert to metric. Even if this is a blind date (the sail hasn't even come out of the bag yet), one could argue that her personal ad didn't quite match reality.

I'd probably still go on the date, FWIW, and at least spread (the sail) out for further inspection, but I might wonder about stretching (the metaphor) too far.

I suppose it would be different math if the lingerie I buy weighs 12 pounds more!

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2 hours ago, Will_Co said:

Thanks for the mostly helpful replies. Happy new year to all.

I’ll say it again, just have a polite conversation with your sales rep. No company is perfect. North screwed up our main, but let us thrash it for a season while they made a free replacement. It wasn’t even badly screwed up. We still won plenty of races with it, but they agreed it wasn’t perfect. 

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On 12/30/2020 at 7:42 AM, Will_Co said:

Payment is required in full before the sail is delivered. 

do you just take the bag or do you open and spread out sail? normally if I paid 8k for a sail I would want the sailmaker come and fit the sail?

 

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1 hour ago, Benytoe said:

do you just take the bag or do you open and spread out sail? normally if I paid 8k for a sail I would want the sailmaker come and fit the sail?

 

I’ll just call it a hunch, but many of our boats are on the hard right now. It’s winter for a bunch of us. 

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13 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I’ll just call it a hunch, but many of our boats are on the hard right now. It’s winter for a bunch of us. 

Agreed, the OP is in Canada where summer is characterized as two weeks of bad ice skating.

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20 hours ago, glass said:

There you go again making more unsubstantiated claims.

It has nothing to do with overweight mainsails but everything to do with your serious psychological problem of exaggeration that you share with Trump.

Now put down that shovel and climb out of that hole you dug yourself in before you get buried.

Ha, one post with some exaggeration in it to refute a point = serious physiological problem. That is truly laughable.

And just to be clear, I was pretty spot on with my correction: https://topclassactions.com/faq/who-pays-legal-fees-in-class-action-lawsuit/

https://judicialstudies.duke.edu/sites/default/files/centers/judicialstudies/panel-6_an_empirical_study_of_class_action_settlements_and_their_fee_awards.pdf

From the first article: “Plaintiffs’ counsel generally receive 25 to 33 percent of the amount of damages as their attorney fees. Another award goes to the class representative — the named plaintiff who pursues the claim on behalf of the Class. The reason is they must work closely with the legal team as well as travel in order to appear in court on behalf of other members of the Class.”

That doesn’t include the defenses legal fees, which can easily equal that of the plaintiffs, hence 50% of the settlement amount, if not more. 

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9 hours ago, Will_Co said:

Thanks for the mostly helpful replies. Happy new year to all.

Happy New Year to you as well. I hope you can work through a solution with your sailmaker that doesn’t involve lawyers, and hope the rest of the sail works for you even if the weight target is off.

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9 hours ago, Grizz said:

For what it's worth, I have an early 2018 3DI NorDac main on my Frers 33- intended as a cruising/racing main. I don't know the equivalent material spec in the current line-up- mine was quoted as 16,800 DPI. I did not go with full battens, but even the full-battened quote was much lower than the OP's price, adjusted for $CDN. 

The sail was certainly heavier than the previous blown-out Doyle membrane race sail (purchased by P.O., so I don't know the material details. That said, it has held its shape perfectly over three years of heavy mixed use, and we have done extremely well with it in local races. I am very happy that we made the decision to buy it (felt kinda risky because it was the first full production year for 3DI NorDac.) 

Good comparison. While I personally think North has a top-notch product in 3Di, they have been steadily increasing the price 20-30% year over year while reducing the DPI/carbon content in the higher end products. Sure, they can claim better design tools/construction but personally I think they recognized they are going to drive themselves out of business selling racing sails that last for 5+ years and they better start pulling material out to get back to a 2 year replacement cycle.

At the same time, Doyle, One Sails and others have developed similar processes’ and are selling racing laminate sails for less than North. The one area North maintains an edge in is with their relatively new NorLam/3Di 330 product.

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