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Self tacking jib track


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Has anyone had any experience with the Harken or Selden self tacking jib track systems?  Big boat flavor, I think, although 40er 10,000 lb displacement puts her at that line between medium and large,  J 11.83, I 40.83.

Currently have a Hoyt jib spar, but I’d really like a dedicated upwind self tacking jib that scrapes the deck....  unless a (what to call it?) luff aero fairing wrap around/under the front end/forward end of the Hoyt spar/furler/forestay/out haul/vang might do anything?  (Except wrap itself around the foil...)

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Have you figured out how to lead the sheet and in-haul. Critical stuff. And mounting the track to the deck is non-trivial. Also you want the car to just barely clear the mast for maximum sail area. Jib batten and clew board issues. The clew board and crazy roach can help get the foot down to the deck. And spinnaker pole interference issues.

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56 minutes ago, El Borracho said:

Have you figured out how to lead the sheet and in-haul. Critical stuff. And mounting the track to the deck is non-trivial. Also you want the car to just barely clear the mast for maximum sail area. Jib batten and clew board issues. The clew board and crazy roach can help get the foot down to the deck. And spinnaker pole interference issues.

Thanks! The in (out?) haul already leads to and back from the forestay turning on a block on the Hoyt jib pedestal, the sheet is on the cabin top, both lead through fairleads respectively to the deck centerline forward and work freely from clutches next to the cabin top winches.  (Is that what you mean?) The clewboard on the current jib loves to tear holes in the paint in passing, so that is in the data base, and the jib battens are horizontal furling battens which are so far from the mast they never touch.  Will be getting a different jib if I do the self tacking on a track. Vertical battens?  No spinnakers poles abused while sailing, all sails other than the blade & main are flying.  (33 degree swept spreaders..:)...)

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Oh, I didn’t know you were already most of the way there. You have a boom thingy now? With a track the in-haul doesn’t need to go forward. Mine was in a sleeve thru the mast. The sheet needs to lead fully forward on centerline for the magic curve trick to work. For performance I would think the battens should hold a huge leech as far aft as possible, even smacking the mast as they pass. But that is just me.

How can the clewboard touch the deck? That makes no sense in my mental image...not doubting you...

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13 minutes ago, El Borracho said:

Oh, I didn’t know you were already most of the way there. You have a boom thingy now? With a track the in-haul doesn’t need to go forward. Mine was in a sleeve thru the mast. The sheet needs to lead fully forward on centerline for the magic curve trick to work. For performance I would think the battens should hold a huge leech as far aft as possible, even smacking the mast as they pass. But that is just me.

How can the clewboard touch the deck? That makes no sense in my mental image...not doubting you...

That’s because it attacks the mast paint.  My bad Description.  
 

yup, have the boom.  Great off wind, not so great upwind, leach wise.
 

Frankly, I’d like to use lashings instead of the flying aluminum scimitar.  Gotta be easier on the fingers too....

Agree completely about as big jib as possible.  The current setup makes the jib look tiny.  No turbo rush when we unroll the thing....  sad....

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Maybe it will help to add a couple of questions-

Does the Harken or Selden run better/smoother if out/in hauled hauled from the deck instead of the mast?

Which deck brackets are easier on toes/feet when banging into them?  

Which is easier to install?  

is it better to spec a custom radius track from Selden rather than go with one of their standard curves?

Is there a price/strength difference between a track kit vs a custom built up (in?) track built on (maybe laminated) to the cabin/deck?
 


 

 

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A molded on something like this, but no unsupported span - this is Amati’s main traveller, which is not curved up and down, but longitudinally, which is similar to a jib traveller sheeted from the bow, not the mast.  I suppose you could control a jib traveller like this, from each side?  Not so simple, but the Soling traveller early on wasn’t so simple either.  But it was effective...

 

43654C97-1A75-42AF-8755-3B8A4EE6B6FA.jpeg

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The track usually bows upwards at ends as well as having a circular arc centered on the tack. This causes the car to prefer to stay outboard instead of moving inboard at the wrong moment. The Soling does not appear to do this. It may have enough greater radius at the center to make it work. But it must be just right bcuz the foot needs to straighten to accomplish a tack. Easier to straighten the leech in most situations....partly bcuz it tends to get eased slightly during racing tacks.

My experience was rigging an 11: Metre where it worked almost perfect. Occasionally the in-haul would get itself caught on the clew or around the block. Rare, but annoying.

Using outhauls would seem to defeat the whole purpose.

Of course the tripping hazard is painful.

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1 hour ago, El Borracho said:

The track usually bows upwards at ends as well as having a circular arc centered on the tack. This causes the car to prefer to stay outboard instead of moving inboard at the wrong moment. The Soling does not appear to do this. It may have enough greater radius at the center to make it work. But it must be just right bcuz the foot needs to straighten to accomplish a tack. Easier to straighten the leech in most situations....partly bcuz it tends to get eased slightly during racing tacks.

My experience was rigging an 11: Metre where it worked almost perfect. Occasionally the in-haul would get itself caught on the clew or around the block. Rare, but annoying.

Using outhauls would seem to defeat the whole purpose.

Of course the tripping hazard is painful.

Thanks- sounds like you’re describing this- the Selden system (below)- the ends of the track have a nut that looks to adjust the tilt(?) of the plane of the arc so the ends seem like they could be pointing up a bit- lined up more at 90 degrees to the forestay rather than parallel to the deck?  Is that closer to what you were describing?

https://catalinayachtsstore.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/excerpts_SelfTackingJibSystemA4-E-1-3.pdf

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That is a bit different than I was thinking. But it appears that is would work just fine. Aimed at around 45 up would seem okay. Looks like they know what they are doing. The key idea is that the sail and rig form a springy action that prefers the clew to be at the ends, pulling against the in-hauler. With the jib at max beat trim it should be reluctant (get very tight) to get near or cross the center. When the jib is eased it tends to bang around in light stuff or DDW Bcuz the ‘spring’ tension is absent. 

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We had the larger Selden system on our 15m monohull. I was told by a sales rep it was notorious for blowing the end stop off the track, so to carry extra end stops. We were pretty careful with our tacks to not be hammering it, but had one shitty situation that left the sail flogging for maybe 15-20 seconds, it banged into the end stop, but was not fully powered up at the time.  I pulled it apart and the 8mm bolts were both bent slightly.   I quit running that system off shore as a result. 

Also the track was too short for anything other then hard on the wind. Crack off even 5 degrees and sail shape was poor. No amount of farting around with it helped.

We ended up running jib sheets thru a floating ring; far better sail control and some redundancy/safety off shore. We'd only rig the self tacker for close quarters upwind work.

We looked at a cat with the Harken system and I thought it felt abit more solid overall, but zero actual experience with it.

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A stopper knot in the in-haul should stop the car, not the plastic car ends.

Indeed, self tacking jibs, or any such shaped blade, is almost useless off the wind. Except fast boats like my 11m had the wind way forward on reaches. Normally such boats have huge mains and the jib is only for beating work.

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1 hour ago, El Borracho said:

A stopper knot in the in-haul should stop the car, not the plastic car ends.

Indeed, self tacking jibs, or any such shaped blade, is almost useless off the wind. Except fast boats like my 11m had the wind way forward on reaches. Normally such boats have huge mains and the jib is only for beating work.

Yup.  That is Amati- heavier than an 11 M, 40’ loa, officially 9400 pounds, 10’ beam, 8.5’ draft.  33 degree spreaders, only runners.  But anytime we break 15knots it’s with the big assed roached main only anyway, so... We have a 165 % drifter, and it’s too much even in 4-5 K TW reaching.  20 degrees heel again...  Quantum, years ago,  made a jib that was too big, about 120% (I asked for a 95% like the Lidgard blade before) and the Quantum was perfect in the light stuff off wind drawing the apparent wind forward, but too weird upwind (kind of balky, where the blade was great in 2k TWupwind) , so I figure a flying something or other 125% will be about right for downwind as we gybe off wind anyway.  So I’m looking for an upwind only end plated blade. We usually put the first reef upwind in at about 10K TW.  20 degrees heel just doesn’t feel that fast- kind of strained- 10-12 degrees is better, and more powered up than luffing a full main against the spreaders.  As Bob Perry put it, ‘she’s just a cruising boat’.  But she’s really close winded, playing the gust cells is addicting, and 2 up, grinding gets tedious in narrow channels.  So the hunt for the perfect self tacking jib.  I’m hoping a canvas shop can put canvas covered pads over the out side stands so banging them with bare feet doesn’t hurt.  I must admit, I drool over a lot of really modern boats designed with self trackers to begin with, but most of the 30 footers weigh more than Amati, and boats like the Pogo need craploads of sail to get them going because of all that wetted surface.  The Opto looks nice, but hard to rationalize, and it has almost as much sail as we do now.   I’m starting to rant, and it’s late...

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2 hours ago, tDot said:

We had the larger Selden system on our 15m monohull. I was told by a sales rep it was notorious for blowing the end stop off the track, so to carry extra end stops. We were pretty careful with our tacks to not be hammering it, but had one shitty situation that left the sail flogging for maybe 15-20 seconds, it banged into the end stop, but was not fully powered up at the time.  I pulled it apart and the 8mm bolts were both bent slightly.   I quit running that system off shore as a result. 

Also the track was too short for anything other then hard on the wind. Crack off even 5 degrees and sail shape was poor. No amount of farting around with it helped.

We ended up running jib sheets thru a floating ring; far better sail control and some redundancy/safety off shore. We'd only rig the self tacker for close quarters upwind work.

We looked at a cat with the Harken system and I thought it felt abit more solid overall, but zero actual experience with it.

Thanks- The light Harken multihull self tacker (crossbow?) looks cool (is that the one you mean?) but the big boat one looks very different, and the legs look painful to slice feet on.  It does look more substantial though.... hate to bombard Harken with a lot of questions about it- I always get the feeling they think I should be bugging the designer and not them.  I think 15 M is the upper end of the Selden recommendation for the self tacker?  Well, it is now!  :)  
 

How big was your jib?  Displacement?  How long was the track? Did you take it out to the lifelines, or leave some room to walk around it? Instead of stepping over it?   Did you go for one of the stock lengths, or custom?  I take it you had the largest track?  And if you were in between the mid and large, you’d go for the large?
 

We don't go offshore anymore, for what that’s worth.....  Jibs........ -_-  

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2 hours ago, El Borracho said:

A stopper knot in the in-haul should stop the car, not the plastic car ends.

Indeed, self tacking jibs, or any such shaped blade, is almost useless off the wind. Except fast boats like my 11m had the wind way forward on reaches. Normally such boats have huge mains and the jib is only for beating work.

I think that’s what Harken suggests too....

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2 hours ago, El Borracho said:

A stopper knot in the in-haul should stop the car, not the plastic car ends.

Indeed, self tacking jibs, or any such shaped blade, is almost useless off the wind. Except fast boats like my 11m had the wind way forward on reaches. Normally such boats have huge mains and the jib is only for beating work.

There was no inhauler, and the Selden system doesn't allow for one.. I attempted to rig one, but couldn't make anything work with the existing setup. 

By the time I added the floating rings, we could get decent sail shape at much broader points of sail and so abandoned the Self Tacker.

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3 minutes ago, tDot said:

There was no inhauler, and the Selden system doesn't allow for one....

How is the position adjusted? Or is it just sized for one fixed lateral position? Ours was about half down for close-hauled conditions. All the way down for reaches.

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21 minutes ago, Amati said:

Thanks- The light Harken multihull self tacker (crossbow?) looks cool (is that the one you mean?) but the big boat one looks very different, and the legs look painful to slice feet on.  It does look more substantial though.... hate to bombard Harken with a lot of questions about it- I always get the feeling they think I should be bugging the designer and not them.  I think 15 M is the upper end of the Selden recommendation for the self tacker?  Well, it is now!  :)  
 

How big was your jib?  Displacement?  How long was the track? Did you take it out to the lifelines, or leave some room to walk around it? Instead of stepping over it?   Did you go for one of the stock lengths, or custom?  I take it you had the largest track?  And if you were in between the mid and large, you’d go for the large?
 

We don't go offshore anymore, for what that’s worth.....  Jibs........ -_-  

51m jib, 14000kg lightship, add 4000kg of crap. It was a stock length, roughly 5-6', lots of room on the side decks.

I would definitely oversize the system.

I just looked at ths Harken systems, I couldnt give you a model number,  but it looked more like one of their 32mm traveller and genoa lead systems vs the smaller self tacker systems.  Track was easily 12' wide (on a catamaran).

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3 minutes ago, El Borracho said:

How is the position adjusted? Or is it just sized for one fixed lateral position? Ours was about half down for close-hauled conditions. All the way down for reaches.

The position wasn't adjustable,  hence why I felt it was shite... it was also very narrow, so no point in adjusting anyways. 

It was rigged as Selden recommended, apparently banging into the plastic stopper was a good idea in their boardrooms.

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38 minutes ago, tDot said:

51m jib, 14000kg lightship, add 4000kg of crap. It was a stock length, roughly 5-6', lots of room on the side decks.

I would definitely oversize the system.

I just looked at ths Harken systems, I couldnt give you a model number,  but it looked more like one of their 32mm traveller and genoa lead systems vs the smaller self tacker systems.  Track was easily 12' wide (on a catamaran).

Not a beach cat then- we have a 32mm track for our main traveller- 10’ + wide... pic above....

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Here’s a system for the Weta- wonder if it would scale up, getting the geometry right would be a bit unforgiving, since no adjustment...

 

 

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B9F05381-DF90-40D2-9AE9-7353AE344A94.jpeg

0D499BA6-2099-46E6-AD57-C72E654400CC.jpeg

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That is like the 11:m setup. But out to the shear, and inhaul led aft thru the mast base. The 11:m was a strict OD class and the major sailmakers knew exactly how to make the jibs fit and trim perfectly. It had legs so one feature was the spin pole grunt could hook their feet under the track while standing there patiently waiting for that overly talkative guy on the tiller to turn down for a moment so the pole might be clipped onto the mast.

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4 minutes ago, El Borracho said:

That is like the 11:m setup. But out to the shear, and inhaul led aft thru the mast base. The 11:m was a strict OD class and the major sailmakers knew exactly how to make the jibs fit and trim perfectly. It had legs so one feature was the spin pole grunt could hook their feet under the track while standing there patiently waiting for that overly talkative guy on the tiller to turn down for a moment so the pole might be clipped onto the mast.

So, not cooling their heels..... cooling their toes? :lol:  
 

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One thing to consider with a jib track is the sheeting angle. Where as a main the angle is pretty much vertical or 90 degrees from the deck plane however a job track the sheeting angle is around 45 degrees or even less. As a result the cars are loaded up differently, with cars that have ball bearings on the top rows fairing better than the bottom. I've seen first hand the leading edge of track which didn't have a top row of ball bearings cars ground to a razor edge that ultimately destroyed the cars. 

The best solution I've seen was a track which the face of it was directly in line with the sheeting angle. The track was bent both on the horizonal and vertical plane and functioned like butter. 

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I have the Selden system on our Sweden 42 and can vouch for all of tDot's comments. It's civilized for cocktailing and short handed (particularly offshore), but the shape is less than stellar.

My biggest annoyance is in light to moderate air, it frequently sticks when tacking to port. Someone needs to go up and kick it to move it over. I keep thinking I should replace the bearings, but it's probably the track itself, given it sticks in the same spot.

We do have vertical battens in the jib, which add a bit of area and seems to help the shape, or at least I like to pretend it does.

Swedens can be ordered as self-tacking or with 115%. The self tackers have further outboard chainplates and shorter jib tracks. I rather wish mine had been ordered with the 115%, given the light air I see. Also, the stainless frame for the self tacking track slides into the normal jib tracks. Many Sweden owners experience galvanic corrosion at that joint and have a bear of a time replacing the jib track.

If you don't like the Hoyt setup and are looking for more area, I wouldn't continue down the self-tacking path. Figuring out a 115 or similar will give you more area and more control of the shape. 

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4 hours ago, RImike said:

One thing to consider with a jib track is the sheeting angle. Where as a main the angle is pretty much vertical or 90 degrees from the deck plane however a job track the sheeting angle is around 45 degrees or even less. As a result the cars are loaded up differently, with cars that have ball bearings on the top rows fairing better than the bottom. I've seen first hand the leading edge of track which didn't have a top row of ball bearings cars ground to a razor edge that ultimately destroyed the cars. 

The best solution I've seen was a track which the face of it was directly in line with the sheeting angle. The track was bent both on the horizonal and vertical plane and functioned like butter. 

It’s just money.........jibs.......<_<

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16 hours ago, Amati said:

Maybe it will help to add a couple of questions-

Does the Harken or Selden run better/smoother if out/in hauled hauled from the deck instead of the mast?

Which deck brackets are easier on toes/feet when banging into them?  

Which is easier to install?  

is it better to spec a custom radius track from Selden rather than go with one of their standard curves?

Is there a price/strength difference between a track kit vs a custom built up (in?) track built on (maybe laminated) to the cabin/deck?
 


 

 

I have installed both systems.  The Selden system does seem to work smoother when sheeted up the mast rather than across the foredeck to the stem.  Sheeting up the mast was not an option for the boat I put the Harken on.  The main thing is getting the line routed as fair and with as little friction as possible. The Harken Crossbow system is more suited for Catamarans and racing sport boats.  If you go with Harken you may need a custom bent track, usually available from your Harken dealer if you give him some lead time to work with.  The Selden cabintop brackets are quite smooth.  The ones designed to mount on the cabin sides are less so, however they are easier to install.  Harken Crossbow feet are fairly smooth as well.  I suggest good deck shoes.  All of these systems require some custom fitting and are not "easy" to install.  However the mechanically minded DIYer can do it successfully if you go slow and plan well before cutting tracks and legs.  Do multiple pre-fits before drilling the final holes in your deck and start squirting sealant.  No need for a custom radius from Selden unless your application falls outside of the parameters specified for their pre-bent systems.  Both the track kits and and a custom bent and fitted track are relatively pricey.  No free ride here, you will pay for a fabricator / installer with a custom set-up and you might even need to have part mods or slight fabrication when fitting the kits.  All boat decks are different.  Hard to make a one size fits all kit.  By the way, of all the self tacking jib systems out there, the Hoyt Jib-boom is one of the better ones.  I'm surprised you want to change it.  The sail trim issue you are having might be solved by paying your sailmaker to come have a look and possibly re-cut your sail.  The original sail designer just might have not done a very good job.  As someone else noted, changing to a track system will not likely add enough sail area to be noticeable driving upwind, and none of these self tacking track systems provide much clew control when sailing off the wind.

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1 hour ago, beaverscc said:

I have installed both systems.  The Selden system does seem to work smoother when sheeted up the mast rather than across the foredeck to the stem.  Sheeting up the mast was not an option for the boat I put the Harken on.  The main thing is getting the line routed as fair and with as little friction as possible. The Harken Crossbow system is more suited for Catamarans and racing sport boats.  If you go with Harken you may need a custom bent track, usually available from your Harken dealer if you give him some lead time to work with.  The Selden cabintop brackets are quite smooth.  The ones designed to mount on the cabin sides are less so, however they are easier to install.  Harken Crossbow feet are fairly smooth as well.  I suggest good deck shoes.  All of these systems require some custom fitting and are not "easy" to install.  However the mechanically minded DIYer can do it successfully if you go slow and plan well before cutting tracks and legs.  Do multiple pre-fits before drilling the final holes in your deck and start squirting sealant.  No need for a custom radius from Selden unless your application falls outside of the parameters specified for their pre-bent systems.  Both the track kits and and a custom bent and fitted track are relatively pricey.  No free ride here, you will pay for a fabricator / installer with a custom set-up and you might even need to have part mods or slight fabrication when fitting the kits.  All boat decks are different.  Hard to make a one size fits all kit.  By the way, of all the self tacking jib systems out there, the Hoyt Jib-boom is one of the better ones.  I'm surprised you want to change it.  The sail trim issue you are having might be solved by paying your sailmaker to come have a look and possibly re-cut your sail.  The original sail designer just might have not done a very good job.  As someone else noted, changing to a track system will not likely add enough sail area to be noticeable driving upwind, and none of these self tacking track systems provide much clew control when sailing off the wind.

I used some line looped on the Hoyt boom to adjustably hold the jib clew down to the boom while still allowing it to slide in and out, and that worked pretty well for leach control. (Like a main clew Velcro taped to a main boom.)  Needed to walk up to the bow to change leach tension, but it does cure the problem with the fixed block at the end of the boom that allows the jib clew to sky when you slack the outhaul.  But it doesn’t work  with a jib furler- you have to go up and untie the clew hold down, because it doesn’t slide over (under? Inside?) the part of the outhaul that acts as a boom vang where that comes up to meet the boom. I suppose no furler with lazy jacks and hanks might work....:lol:...with a jib down haul...and an outhaul control led back to the cockpit... Or 2 separate outhaul lines?  I think....

Then there’s the problem with the space under the Hoyt Boom- use the same sort of sail as a 49er main?  Down at the bottom, at least, follow the Hoyt vang line- that would allow the boom to get over the lifelines for downwind work.   Or a track on top of the boom?  But that’s 2 outhauls too?

 

 

 

 

 

FF0148A5-4F91-44D4-A03C-B8D8E6961F9B.jpeg

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I had installed the Selden track on my previous boat (Farrier F32RX) with the sheet going to the bow and not up the mast. I think getting the bend right is very important for smooth operation. We used a slightly larger radius than the length to the bow, so that the car goes over easily, but not so large, that you pull the car to the middle when tightening the sheet.

This worked perfectly. I honestly haven't anything to complain about. An absolute joy to sail with. Also solid, but then we only had a tiny jib and a large main.

I had an inhauler - further up someone posted, that wouldn't work with the Selden track. We simply rigged an 8mm line from the cockpit  through a low friction ring just before they mast and attached it to the middle of car. It can be quite deceiving: you think you are sailing 15 degrees true to the wind and then look back at your wake and notice that in reality you after just drifting sideways...

Paul

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43 minutes ago, toolbar said:

I had installed the Selden track on my previous boat (Farrier F32RX) with the sheet going to the bow and not up the mast. I think getting the bend right is very important for smooth operation. We used a slightly larger radius than the length to the bow, so that the car goes over easily, but not so large, that you pull the car to the middle when tightening the sheet.

This worked perfectly. I honestly haven't anything to complain about. An absolute joy to sail with. Also solid, but then we only had a tiny jib and a large main.

I had an inhauler - further up someone posted, that wouldn't work with the Selden track. We simply rigged an 8mm line from the cockpit  through a low friction ring just before they mast and attached it to the middle of car. It can be quite deceiving: you think you are sailing 15 degrees true to the wind and then look back at your wake and notice that in reality you after just drifting sideways...

Paul

10% longer radius?  ~5%?  Thanks!  

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4 minutes ago, El Borracho said:

Sheet led up the mast fails if a spinnaker pole is used. BTW.

And with the Selden, you have the crane, which would seem to limit the leech.  We’d have to move the mast lights.

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Our Selden came setup with the sheet running up the mast. When I was messing withit I tried running it forward,  it wasn't happy, so switched it back. The movement of the car was very notchy, it would hang up. I figured it was the slight twisting of the car on the track and load on 1/2 the ball bearings as the vertical orientation.  

Responding to @toolbar comment about the inhauler. He's right that the Selden car absolutely could accept an inhauler, my limitation was with my boat. No where to rig it without adding holes, which I was tired of doing and the wire loom from the deck to the mast was right there, so we chose not to mess any further with it. Went a different route entirely. 

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