winchfodder

AC37: The NYYC want to go backwards. Let's keep foiling!

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Here's hoping that American Magic don't win as it seems that the team principals (probably not TerryH though) and their club want to go back to 80-100ft maxi style monohulks. Gary (Who he) also stepped into the debate. 

I was sceptical about even the principal of a winged monohull getting around the course three years ago. Now, after watching them on the water I can't imagine anything so totally brilliant at demonstrating how far we have come in my lifetime on the water. 

What AC36 misses in the complexity and absorption of a slowly developing match race (the final drift in the Christmas Cup was almost there if we forget that the Frackers had been lapped and were several kilometres behind) it more than makes with the total package of innovation, speed, adrenalin (for the crew at least) and amazing sight of 40knot plus machines zipping around on the water.

And there will be match racing to come. Even though the pre starts have been cut to two minutes there was plenty going on in the ACWS before Christmas. 

The design and engineering of the new class once again shows just how incredible the sailing industry can be. The set up and control of the double skin mainsail is complex and evolving into a real advance even on articulated solid wing sails. The design and manipulation of the foils to create take off and maintain even flight is equally impressive as is the hull shape above and below water to reduce drag.

The boats are a true challenge from design to construction to control. 

As for the sailors, maintaining foiling and then manoeuvring around a tight course and avoiding collisions is total skill.

These are edgy times and these are edgy boats deserving of the longest running sporting contest in the world. 

The challenger series will have it all. There will be drama on the water as boats and egos are crushed. 

The Match itself is likely to be less of a contest, but that is how it has always been as TNZ show how the Cup is won on team spirit and innovation above all else. Ask the billionaires who have tried!

Moving forward it is hard to see the Cup dropping back into the water. The one change already discussed is the replacement of robot muscle men with electric power so the crew could be just four or five sailors.

I have no idea who TNZ would choose as COR for the next hip pocket challenge in moving to the next cycle and choice of boat. Prada have been recent allies, though the upper hierarchy and team principal seem to favour the past. NYYC have already hoisted their colours, but you never know. 

The quotation below is what set me off on this rant. 

"In recent days in America, there was an almost “carbonara” meeting, which was attended by about thirty people, promoted by the New York Yacht Club, with the men who launched the challenge of American Magic (Doug DeVos, Hap Fauth, Roger Penske) to design the future (if any) of the next edition.

The summary of what they said at that assembly ended in an article by Gary Jobson, former vice president of World Sailing, for Sailing World.

Jobson has NYYC commodore, Chris Culver, talk about the possible scenario for the America’s Cup that will come should the US team win in Auckland. In summary: boats in the water of 80-100 feet, with a better balance between sailing skills and technology (on the AC75, they say, there is too much “machine”), which can be seen from afar and which are majestic, which are ideal for traditional match-racing. And simpler, to reduce research and development costs.

A formula that, according to the Americans, should give new life to the America’s Cup, attract more challengers. In the US, then, there would also be a selection of the Defender, as in the past.

“I agree with this approach,” Bonadeo says again. But wasn’t he supporting Luna Rossa? “Sure. I hope Bertelli thinks the same way and that he can apply this change.”

 

 

 

 

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If Bruno is only concerned with speed then stop the pretense of sailing  go to hard wings and full powered boats for all the foils and controls.  Run it right off the cliff!

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19 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Here's hoping that American Magic don't win as it seems that the team principals (probably not TerryH though) and their club want to go back to 80-100ft maxi style monohulks. Gary (Who he) also stepped into the debate. 

I was sceptical about even the principal of a winged monohull getting around the course three years ago. Now, after watching them on the water I can't imagine anything so totally brilliant at demonstrating how far we have come in my lifetime on the water. 

What AC36 misses in the complexity and absorption of a slowly developing match race (the final drift in the Christmas Cup was almost there if we forget that the Frackers had been lapped and were several kilometres behind) it more than makes with the total package of innovation, speed, adrenalin (for the crew at least) and amazing sight of 40knot plus machines zipping around on the water.

And there will be match racing to come. Even though the pre starts have been cut to two minutes there was plenty going on in the ACWS before Christmas. 

The design and engineering of the new class once again shows just how incredible the sailing industry can be. The set up and control of the double skin mainsail is complex and evolving into a real advance even on articulated solid wing sails. The design and manipulation of the foils to create take off and maintain even flight is equally impressive as is the hull shape above and below water to reduce drag.

The boats are a true challenge from design to construction to control. 

As for the sailors, maintaining foiling and then manoeuvring around a tight course and avoiding collisions is total skill.

These are edgy times and these are edgy boats deserving of the longest running sporting contest in the world. 

The challenger series will have it all. There will be drama on the water as boats and egos are crushed. 

The Match itself is likely to be less of a contest, but that is how it has always been as TNZ show how the Cup is won on team spirit and innovation above all else. Ask the billionaires who have tried!

Moving forward it is hard to see the Cup dropping back into the water. The one change already discussed is the replacement of robot muscle men with electric power so the crew could be just four or five sailors.

I have no idea who TNZ would choose as COR for the next hip pocket challenge in moving to the next cycle and choice of boat. Prada have been recent allies, though the upper hierarchy and team principal seem to favour the past. NYYC have already hoisted their colours, but you never know. 

The quotation below is what set me off on this rant. 

"In recent days in America, there was an almost “carbonara” meeting, which was attended by about thirty people, promoted by the New York Yacht Club, with the men who launched the challenge of American Magic (Doug DeVos, Hap Fauth, Roger Penske) to design the future (if any) of the next edition.

The summary of what they said at that assembly ended in an article by Gary Jobson, former vice president of World Sailing, for Sailing World.

Jobson has NYYC commodore, Chris Culver, talk about the possible scenario for the America’s Cup that will come should the US team win in Auckland. In summary: boats in the water of 80-100 feet, with a better balance between sailing skills and technology (on the AC75, they say, there is too much “machine”), which can be seen from afar and which are majestic, which are ideal for traditional match-racing. And simpler, to reduce research and development costs.

A formula that, according to the Americans, should give new life to the America’s Cup, attract more challengers. In the US, then, there would also be a selection of the Defender, as in the past.

“I agree with this approach,” Bonadeo says again. But wasn’t he supporting Luna Rossa? “Sure. I hope Bertelli thinks the same way and that he can apply this change.”

 

 

 

 

Some cringeworthy blowing of smoke up Team middle easts arse. Billionaires are behind the NZ effort and the team spirit crap is just that. Kiwi sailors as have been shown are like any other and race for the highest bidder. 2003 and SF were not down to a failure of team spirit. Lerts get the ac back to sailing with sailors on board rather than gym monkeys.

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It's early, but what we've seen so far seems to show these boats are decent match racing boats, certainly better than the cats. I wouldn't be upset either way though I do think there's merit to the idea that a monohull might attract more challengers. Not everybody feels that's necessary, but I do enjoy the weeks of racing leading up to the match that a big field provides.

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"In recent days in America, there was an almost “carbonara” meeting, which was attended by about thirty people, promoted by the New York Yacht Club

As I wrote on another thread, Bonadeo is a non-entity in Italian sailing.

Moreover, in the interest of clarity especially for our friends down under, a “carbonara” meeting should properly be a convivium starring my favorite dish, spaghetti alla carbonara. The fact that it was held in the US would probably be tied to one theory about the recipe’s origin, with American GIs contributing Spam and powdered eggs during WWII - although I refuse do subscribe to such an indignity.

Now, a meeting of “carbonari” would refer to a secret society struggling for Italy’s independence in the 19th century, where members called themseves “coalmen”. Predictably, a secret society in Italy wasn’t that secret, and its main result was a string of hangings by the Austrians. Which, come to think of it, wouldn’t be a bad outcome also for this untimely initiative

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As per usual, the NYYC hates fun. I believe cats are still banned from their races since Herreshoff caused untold amounts of butthurt by having an original idea

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Ha. Non event. OTUSA and the Fab Four wanted the AC Circus too. They got shit - because winning......

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With what in most countries would be called an attempted coup going on, the NYYC might have other priorities now

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8 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

With what in most countries would be called an attempted coup going on, the NYYC might have other priorities now

Isn't it bad luck to change a boats name.

161020858_ScreenShot2021-01-06at3_50_17PM.png.ce3f9b08ef30bd23e409daec5dbcac6b.thumb.png.a9f84319dd2a9fe7ed7c620c921b5826.png

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

With what in most countries would be called an attempted coup going on, the NYYC might have other priorities now

Oh please.  Coup my ass.  It’s a bunch of rednecks and jackasses encouraged to act like assholes by the biggest asshole in the world who is also a sore loser.  The capital is secure and the electoral college vote will be certified tonight.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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4 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Oh please.  Coup my ass.  It’s a bunch of rednecks and jackasses encouraged to act like assholes by the biggest asshole in the world who is also a sore loser.  The capital is secure and the electoral college vote will be certified tonight.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Saw beach towels for sale with, 'Donald J.Trump is a cunt.' printed on them. i  may buy two.

Link: https://society6.com/product/donald-j-trump-is-a-cunt_beach-towel

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I'd just like to see some crew interaction with sail changes and mark rounding's again

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21 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

I'd just like to see some crew interaction with sail changes and mark rounding's again

A spinnaker change under pressure  is sorely missed. At least you could tell when the boats were going down wind.

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There's an AC?

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

Oh please.  Coup my ass.  It’s a bunch of rednecks and jackasses encouraged to act like assholes by the biggest asshole in the world who is also a sore loser.  The capital is secure and the electoral college vote will be certified tonight.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Loser of an election holds a rally outside the senate whilst the election result is being ratified and says he will never concede. Shortly afterwards people from that rally storm the senate by force. And it appears some police colluded with them

Were they going there in the hope of overturning the result or to pick daisies?

It  never had a chance of succeeding, but if that happened in any other country the state department would be denouncing the failed coup and asking for the democratic process to be respected.

ETA

GW Bush has likened it to a banana republic dispute, Romney has called it "insurrection". So much the same thing

 

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

Oh please.  Coup my ass.  It’s a bunch of rednecks and jackasses encouraged to act like assholes by the biggest asshole in the world who is also a sore loser.  The capital is secure and the electoral college vote will be certified tonight.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Yep, Texan mate of mine was a little concerned.

My comment was there are crazy people in all countries. Up next on the news, water is fucking wet.

In 2 months time, they will have forgotten all about it and Trump will continue tweeting butt hurt comments on twitter at 3am.

I'm gonna miss Trump though. He has been thoroughly entertaining. Your politicians are much more fun than ours.

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1 hour ago, Meat Wad said:

I'd just like to see some crew interaction with sail changes and mark rounding's again

Wednesday night, round the can races, any seaboard/lake city, anywhere in the world. 

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2 hours ago, jaysper said:

I'm gonna miss Trump though. He has been thoroughly entertaining. Your politicians are much more fun than ours.

Speaking of colourful politicians, I saw Steven Joyce and family in an Albany supermarket yesterday - halfway down the fiscal hole isle, I think it was.

He looked relaxed. ;-)

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3 hours ago, jaysper said:

Yep, Texan mate of mine was a little concerned.

My comment was there are crazy people in all countries. Up next on the news, water is fucking wet.

In 2 months time, they will have forgotten all about it and Trump will continue tweeting butt hurt comments on twitter at 3am.

I'm gonna miss Trump though. He has been thoroughly entertaining. Your politicians are much more fun than ours.

This is an example of how people can become sheep and follow the cult leader into drinking the kool-aid.  

They have postponed Trump's twitter account for 9 hours and have threaten to shut it down permanently.  

There are 3 reasons that he is carrying on this election farce: 1) he still wants be king, 2) he is making money off of all the followers contributing to his cause, 3) he knows he will be in jail very soon after he leaves office.  NY state has his ass nailed against the wall for tax and financial fraud, among other things (He artificially inflated real estate values to scam the banks out loans and then deflated the values for tax purposes).  Ivanka was paid good money as an employee of Trump Co and also secretly paid $300K to be a consultant for the company (tax write-offs), etc..

The president can only pardon federal crimes, not state crimes.  Of course he has numerous other federal violations, like election tampering on the state and federal level, etc.. it goes on and on and on.

Please do not wish such a despicable character as Trump on anyone.

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16 hours ago, winchfodder said:

Here's hoping that American Magic don't win as it seems that the team principals (probably not TerryH though) and their club want to go back to 80-100ft maxi style monohulks. Gary (Who he) also stepped into the debate. 

I was sceptical about even the principal of a winged monohull getting around the course three years ago. Now, after watching them on the water I can't imagine anything so totally brilliant at demonstrating how far we have come in my lifetime on the water. 

What AC36 misses in the complexity and absorption of a slowly developing match race (the final drift in the Christmas Cup was almost there if we forget that the Frackers had been lapped and were several kilometres behind) it more than makes with the total package of innovation, speed, adrenalin (for the crew at least) and amazing sight of 40knot plus machines zipping around on the water.

And there will be match racing to come. Even though the pre starts have been cut to two minutes there was plenty going on in the ACWS before Christmas. 

The design and engineering of the new class once again shows just how incredible the sailing industry can be. The set up and control of the double skin mainsail is complex and evolving into a real advance even on articulated solid wing sails. The design and manipulation of the foils to create take off and maintain even flight is equally impressive as is the hull shape above and below water to reduce drag.

The boats are a true challenge from design to construction to control. 

As for the sailors, maintaining foiling and then manoeuvring around a tight course and avoiding collisions is total skill.

These are edgy times and these are edgy boats deserving of the longest running sporting contest in the world. 

The challenger series will have it all. There will be drama on the water as boats and egos are crushed. 

The Match itself is likely to be less of a contest, but that is how it has always been as TNZ show how the Cup is won on team spirit and innovation above all else. Ask the billionaires who have tried!

Moving forward it is hard to see the Cup dropping back into the water. The one change already discussed is the replacement of robot muscle men with electric power so the crew could be just four or five sailors.

I have no idea who TNZ would choose as COR for the next hip pocket challenge in moving to the next cycle and choice of boat. Prada have been recent allies, though the upper hierarchy and team principal seem to favour the past. NYYC have already hoisted their colours, but you never know. 

The quotation below is what set me off on this rant. 

"In recent days in America, there was an almost “carbonara” meeting, which was attended by about thirty people, promoted by the New York Yacht Club, with the men who launched the challenge of American Magic (Doug DeVos, Hap Fauth, Roger Penske) to design the future (if any) of the next edition.

The summary of what they said at that assembly ended in an article by Gary Jobson, former vice president of World Sailing, for Sailing World.

Jobson has NYYC commodore, Chris Culver, talk about the possible scenario for the America’s Cup that will come should the US team win in Auckland. In summary: boats in the water of 80-100 feet, with a better balance between sailing skills and technology (on the AC75, they say, there is too much “machine”), which can be seen from afar and which are majestic, which are ideal for traditional match-racing. And simpler, to reduce research and development costs.

A formula that, according to the Americans, should give new life to the America’s Cup, attract more challengers. In the US, then, there would also be a selection of the Defender, as in the past.

“I agree with this approach,” Bonadeo says again. But wasn’t he supporting Luna Rossa? “Sure. I hope Bertelli thinks the same way and that he can apply this change.”

 

 

 

 

You do know that the "30 people meeting" was a conference call with many of the major yacht clubs (Including RNZYS) to get their input on the future of the AC.  It is not a clandestine operation, they are very open in leading the discussion.  

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6 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

This is an example of how people can become sheep and follow the cult leader into drinking the kool-aid.  

They have postponed Trump's twitter account for 9 hours and have threaten to shut it down permanently.  

There are 3 reasons that he is carrying on this election farce: 1) he still wants be king, 2) he is making money off of all the followers contributing to his cause, 3) he knows he will be in jail very soon after he leaves office.  NY state has his ass nailed against the wall for tax and financial fraud, among other things (He artificially inflated real estate values to scam the banks out loans and then deflated the values for tax purposes).  Ivanka was paid good money as an employee of Trump Co and also secretly paid $300K to be a consultant for the company (tax write-offs), etc..

The president can only pardon federal crimes, not state crimes.  Of course he has numerous other federal violations, like election tampering on the state and federal level, etc.. it goes on and on and on.

Please do not wish such a despicable character as Trump on anyone.

Honestly, I find that the only difference between Trump and the rest of your presidential hopefuls is the inability to throw a veneer over his awfulness.

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27 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

This is great racing!

 

Crikey it’s like watching paint dry compared to the AC75.
Wait until next Friday for even betterer great racing.

Let’s hope the gobby mare commentators from the school of PJ and PL do us all a favour and STFU so the action from the boats can be enjoyed in full.

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7 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

GW Bush has likened it to a banana republic dispute, Romney has called it "insurrection". So much the same thing

One of the defining characteristics of "banana republics" is electoral fraud and rigged elections, not a bunch of idiots in costumes making noise in the Parliament.

Insurrections are usually called for by revolutionary leftist leaders. 

Just sayin'

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BTW, next AC should be raced on J-Class boats.

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1 hour ago, chuso007 said:

BTW, next AC should be raced on J-Class boats.

Do you remember why they moved away from J boats ??.....these boats make AC75’s look cheap

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2 hours ago, chuso007 said:

BTW, next AC should be raced on J-Class boats.

FU

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Fuck me?

That's harsh...

Are you a foiling nazi? I just like beautiful boats, please forgive me mein Fuhrer...

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2 hours ago, chuso007 said:

One of the defining characteristics of "banana republics" is electoral fraud and rigged elections, not a bunch of idiots in costumes making noise in the Parliament.

Insurrections are usually called for by revolutionary leftist leaders. 

Just sayin'

A rather narrow view and biased view of history, especially given your own countries history

But in the more immediate case

https://euobserver.com/opinion/150523

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/06/opinions/trumps-american-carnage-ends-with-a-coup-attempt-avlon/index.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/06/trump-mob-storm-capitol-washington-coup-attempt

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/attempted-coup/617570/

There are countless more calling it a failed coup if you want.

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13 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

With what in most countries would be called an attempted coup going on, the NYYC might have other priorities now

Where is the coup? Has the Army taken over the radio stations? Ah the media and those who follow the hype. Thats the same media who call sportsmen heroes.  

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1 minute ago, dullers said:

Where is the coup? Has the Army taken over the radio stations? Ah the media and those who follow the hype.

Armed people storm government buildings to try and prevent the ratification of the democratically elected president?

What part of attempted coup is it missing?

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10 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Loser of an election holds a rally outside the senate whilst the election result is being ratified and says he will never concede. Shortly afterwards people from that rally storm the senate by force. And it appears some police colluded with them

Were they going there in the hope of overturning the result or to pick daisies?

It  never had a chance of succeeding, but if that happened in any other country the state department would be denouncing the failed coup and asking for the democratic process to be respected.

ETA

GW Bush has likened it to a banana republic dispute, Romney has called it "insurrection". So much the same thing

 

And when BLM and its democrat lovies took over parts of the cities where were you?

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2 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Armed people storm government buildings to try and prevent the ratification of the democratically elected president?

What part of attempted coup is it missing?

So who shot who?  Please look it up.

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Just now, dullers said:

And when BLM and its democrat lovies took over parts of the cities where were you?

You don't see a difference between protests in the streets about racial discrimination (something that has happened in the past in my own country and many other democracies) and an armed takeover of government buildings?

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1 minute ago, enigmatically2 said:

You don't see a difference between protests in the streets about racial discrimination (something that has happened in the past in my own country and many other democracies) and an armed takeover of government buildings?

Do you want to look up when the democrat protests attacked Government buildings in the last year?  

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51 minutes ago, dullers said:

And when BLM and its democrat lovies took over parts of the cities where were you?

 

 

2fbb9a2c-07ba-4e88-a9ab-3bf8bf98b0df.jpg

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58 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

A rather narrow view and biased view of history, especially given your own countries history

LOL...

The left tried 4 coups before the army decided to act in 1936 (with the support of the right) and two more during the war. If that's what you are talking about...

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5 hours ago, chuso007 said:

One of the defining characteristics of "banana republics" is electoral fraud and rigged elections, not a bunch of idiots in costumes making noise in the Parliament.

Insurrections are usually called for by revolutionary leftist leaders. 

Just sayin'

Gerrymandering and voters requirements that mostly harm poor and black people are not fraud and rigging for you then? 

The elections were not fair and equal (1 person 1 vote, a main principle of democracy), but out of other reasons than you might believe. 

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12 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Loser of an election holds a rally outside the senate whilst the election result is being ratified and says he will never concede. Shortly afterwards people from that rally storm the senate by force. And it appears some police colluded with them

Were they going there in the hope of overturning the result or to pick daisies?

It  never had a chance of succeeding, but if that happened in any other country the state department would be denouncing the failed coup and asking for the democratic process to be respected.

ETA

GW Bush has likened it to a banana republic dispute, Romney has called it "insurrection". So much the same thing

 

Speaking as an American who has had a front row seat for the last 4 years of this BS Trump, politicians from both sides and the media have been doing their best to one up each other with exaggerated rhetoric to have the last word.  Yesterday was a consequence.  One would hope those I listed would look at what happened yesterday and tone shit down but your references to GWB and Romney suggest that won’t be the case. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Armed people storm government buildings to try and prevent the ratification of the democratically elected president?

What part of attempted coup is it missing?

Technically it's not a coup if you are already the potentate and cling to your power although another one has the right to it. There are specific words for it: autogolpe, self-coup or autocoup. 

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5 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Gerrymandering and voters requirements that mostly harm poor and black people are not fraud and rigging for you then? 

The elections were not fair and equal (1 person 1 vote, a main principle of democracy), but out of other reasons than you might believe. 

Gerrymandering is an issue in America, I live in Democrat Maryland and the shape of congressional districts in my state look like toddlers drew them, but voting requirements to suppress minorities?  I simply have to tell an election official my name and address to vote. That’s it.  There is no verification process beyond that official looking at a list and verifying what I told him is correct.  No photo ID, nothing.  Does that sound restrictive?  If any of my male friends asked me to vote for them nothing would prevent me from doing so as long as I memorized their full name and home address.  Other states require, or want to require, photo ID to vote so people’s identity can be confirmed.  And that’s labeled as a restriction leveled on minorities.  It’s not.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Gerrymandering is an issue in America, I live in Democrat Maryland and the shape of congressional districts in my state look like toddlers drew them, but voting requirements to suppress minorities?  I simply have to tell an election official my name and address to vote. That’s it.  There is no verification process beyond that official looking at a list and verifying what I told him is correct.  No photo ID, nothing.  Does that sound restrictive?  If any of my male friends asked me to vote for them nothing would prevent me from doing so as long as I memorized their full name and home address.  Other states require, or want to require, photo ID to vote so people’s identity can be confirmed.  And that’s labeled as a restriction leveled on minorities.  It’s not.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Thanks Hoggie for your reply. I'm glad that we agree on gerrymandering. It distorts the will of the people. 

But what about people in prison that are not allowed to vote? What if they already left prison but owe money to the state?

There are districts that have only one ballot box for thousands of people (not the white or affluent neighborhoods). People in certain hoods were queuing for hours to get to the ballot (again, not in the affluent areas). 

Then we have the opening times. Why is voting not on a Sunday? Usually people work on weekdays. And people with more than one job (see the demographics here?) work even more on weekdays. Can they afford to wait hours in a queue to cast their vote? 

All this under the threat of the ruler to invalidate absentee or early votes. 

1 person, 1 vote is not always 1 person, 1 vote when specific persons need to climb hurdles that other persons don't encounter. 

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4 hours ago, chuso007 said:

LOL...

The left tried 4 coups before the army decided to act in 1936 (with the support of the right) and two more during the war. If that's what you are talking about...

Well, to be fair there’s also Colonel Tejero’s attempt in 1981, holding Parliament at gunpoint, no?

 

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10 hours ago, jaysper said:

Honestly, I find that the only difference between Trump and the rest of your presidential hopefuls is the inability to throw a veneer over his awfulness.

Well, then you are obviously uninformed.  

Trump is a grifter, a conman, an entertainer that will exploit any means to benefit himself and his cronies.  He filled cabinet, and high ranking positions with totally unqualified political donors and idiots.  He filled dozens of Federal judge positions with individuals that were opposed by the American Bar Association for not qualified.  He filled at least 2 of 3 Supreme Court positions with individuals that were not close to bing qualified.   He fired numerous FBI directors and Attorney Generals (head of the Justice Department) who would not do his personal bidding and turn those departments into political tools.  He interfered with military operations to benefit his "friends" without any input from the leaders at the Pentagon, he unilaterally pulled out of nuclear non-proliferation treaties, international free-space fly agreements, global warming agreements, funding of NATO, etc..  He kept allowing Russia to get away with interference in our elections and hacking of computer systems.  He allowed UAE to assassinate an American citizen without any penalty (he actually said, the he didn't want to hurt a large arms deal with them).  It goes on and on and on.....  Add on to it an insurrection that he built with a series of lies and personally encouraged to go on down to the capital.  

There are buckets that you can throw most politicians into, but Trump has earned his own vile bucket.

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3 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Well, then you are obviously uninformed.  

Trump is a grifter, a conman, an entertainer that will exploit any means to benefit himself and his cronies.  He filled cabinet, and high ranking positions with totally unqualified political donors and idiots.  He filled dozens of Federal judge positions with individuals that were opposed by the American Bar Association for not qualified.  He filled at least 2 of 3 Supreme Court positions with individuals that were not close to bing qualified.   He fired numerous FBI directors and Attorney Generals (head of the Justice Department) who would not do his personal bidding and turn those departments into political tools.  He interfered with military operations to benefit his "friends" without any input from the leaders at the Pentagon, he unilaterally pulled out of nuclear non-proliferation treaties, international free-space fly agreements, global warming agreements, funding of NATO, etc..  He kept allowing Russia to get away with interference in our elections and hacking of computer systems.  He allowed UAE to assassinate an American citizen without any penalty (he actually said, the he didn't want to hurt a large arms deal with them).  It goes on and on and on.....  Add on to it an insurrection that he built with a series of lies and personally encouraged to go on down to the capital.  

 

And those are his best points

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Sorry, I'm a bit lost in this thread. Is Trump for or against foiling?

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3 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Gerrymandering and voters requirements that mostly harm poor and black people are not fraud and rigging for you then? 

The elections were not fair and equal (1 person 1 vote, a main principle of democracy), but out of other reasons than you might believe. 

I have no idea why are you telling me this as it has nothing to do with what I said, but OK.

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

Gerrymandering is an issue in America, I live in Democrat Maryland and the shape of congressional districts in my state look like toddlers drew them, but voting requirements to suppress minorities?  I simply have to tell an election official my name and address to vote. That’s it.  There is no verification process beyond that official looking at a list and verifying what I told him is correct.  No photo ID, nothing.  Does that sound restrictive?  If any of my male friends asked me to vote for them nothing would prevent me from doing so as long as I memorized their full name and home address.  Other states require, or want to require, photo ID to vote so people’s identity can be confirmed.  And that’s labeled as a restriction leveled on minorities.  It’s not.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

You have a very naive understanding of the process.  Gerrymandering is a very large problem in many states and is getting worse.

When you have states closing polling places in minority areas (voters waiting for 4-8 hours to cast a vote) that is obviously suppressing the vote.   Didn't you have to sign the election registration sheet when you went to vote?  We have to sign and that is your binding agreement for the record (just as when you sign a loan or enlist in the military).  I am sure you are old enough to remember that there are handwriting experts that can evaluated your signature similar to fingerprints and it is used as a form of identification.   So you think it is worth committing a Felony just to go cast another vote?  It is not a simple as you stay and very rarely happens.  The problems with requiring Drivers license is that many poor people do not have driver license, nor the means to acquire an ID card (you have to open your eyes and understand that not everyone has the same opportunities that you have).

We need to open up and make it easier for everyone to vote, not place restrictions on how to vote.  If we can file our taxes and pay bills on line or by mail, we should all be able to vote the same way.

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23 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Well, to be fair there’s also Colonel Tejero’s attempt in 1981, holding Parliament at gunpoint, no?

 

And the separatist Catalan  coup three years ago...  We have them of any color you want.

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Electoral system in the US looks even worse than the Spanish one. And ours is  incredibly unfair and uneven.

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57 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Sorry, I'm a bit lost in this thread. Is Trump for or against foiling?

Haha ;)

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

Sorry, I'm a bit lost in this thread. Is Trump for or against foiling?

43 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Haha ;)

Trump is definitely in favour of foiling. 

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23 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Trump is definitely in favour of foiling. 

Looks patently obvious that the tangerine hater and wreckers strength was foiling the American peoples opportunities to stop their nation failing on his watch.

However he was not successful in foiling his own imminent demise.

 

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So Bruno wants foiling having recovered from his scent of sunscreen and French Fries trauma? Or maybe he had covid recovered but lost sense of smell?

NYYC and LR want majestic 80-100 foot displacement yachts.  So old fat folks can ride along.  Like the money people. The AC35 foiling of guest racer spots was last straw. 

That might encourage participation. Rip the retrofits off Comanche and you got yourself an AC boat. Heck, they could run AC around Sydney-Hobart and get lots of entries. 

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I'm stoked to see this round of the AC, but part of that is to see if anyone gets chopped in half in the pre-start... These boats are cool, but a bit divorced from everyday sailing.  Using the AC/F1/MotoGP analogy the formula still needs to resonate to some degree with the spectators. If the F1 formula produced a hovercraft or MotoGP bikes had 3 wheels I think it would lose something. If I was the Master of the Galaxy I'd cherry pick some of the cooler bits but couch them in a formula that would produce something a bit more relatable. Something like a monohull of sufficient length to be magnificent, twin skin soft mains (I dig that idea) and any foiling solution you'd like as long as it is muscle and string powered only... This might result in a fixed or manual canting T-foil keel or daggerboards or who knows, but I imagine it would not result in the current crazy waving arm thing...

My 2¢

 

 

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34 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

 

NYYC and LR want majestic 80-100 foot displacement yachts.  

Not LR, AFAIK - not any more

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38 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

So Bruno wants foiling having recovered from his scent of sunscreen and French Fries trauma? Or maybe he had covid recovered but lost sense of smell?

NYYC and LR want majestic 80-100 foot displacement yachts.  So old fat folks can ride along.  Like the money people. The AC35 foiling of guest racer spots was last straw. 

That might encourage participation. Rip the retrofits off Comanche and you got yourself an AC boat. Heck, they could run AC around Sydney-Hobart and get lots of entries. 

Get a clew

Do the AC in a more moderate size race boat and get the Best of the Best instead of the Richest of the Rich out there. A top of the line 45' with planing capabilities (in the right condition) would be fun to watch and help control costs. You would also get more competitors and TV loves a good shit fight. 

These 25 minute races are pretty fucking dumb. Even F1 is just over 1 to 1.5 hour long race. And they have 22 of them over the year to determine the Champ.

 

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25 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

Get a clew

Do the AC in a more moderate size race boat and get the Best of the Best instead of the Richest of the Rich out there. A top of the line 45' with planing capabilities (in the right condition) would be fun to watch and help control costs. You would also get more competitors and TV loves a good shit fight. 

These 25 minute races are pretty fucking dumb. Even F1 is just over 1 to 1.5 hour long race. And they have 22 of them over the year to determine the Champ.

 

Fine for some other ordinary game. This IS the America's Cup and should be the pinnacle of design and sailing ability (and of course VERY expensive and inaccessible).

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15 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Fine for some other ordinary game. This IS the America's Cup and should be the pinnacle of design and sailing ability (and of course VERY expensive and inaccessible).

But there is little of what the average person would consider sailing ability involved. Staring at a screen while punching buttons. Mindlessly grinding without ever leaving your seat. The only time anyone is on deck is to scamper from one hidden cockpit to another.

Sailing ability, yeah right.

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Going back to the Op, the question should be what is and where is the cup going. It was intended as a challenge cup, ostensibly between nations, but in reality more between the rich and powerful. They built a boat, sometimes with agreed design constraints, and raced each other. Bragging rights to the winner.

It's present direction appears to be a continuous series of regattas held around the world, followed by a final race off every few years. A world series, guaranteeing employment and, hopefully, a TV audience. How long will such an event be cost effective. Shipping boats and crew all over the world for a bunch of short races is not cheap, or very environmentally pleasant.

Who will continue to front for this money pit. The wealthy sailors are no longer interested as has become obvious. They would like to at least be able to sit on their beast, if not occasionally drive them. So they have moved on to other boats and events. So it needs to become commercially sustainable in its present iteration. This is where it has been going for quite a long time, starting with TNZ needing sponsorship to survive.

So the question is really should the Cup become a challenge cup in name only, in reality just another regatta held every year. Personally I don't want another regatta/series in boats that have so little to do with my understanding of sailing.

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17 minutes ago, Gissie said:

But there is little of what the average person would consider sailing ability involved. Staring at a screen while punching buttons. Mindlessly grinding without ever leaving your seat. The only time anyone is on deck is to scamper from one hidden cockpit to another.

Sailing ability, yeah right.

It's not a fad it's the future.

Tb09362617_g.jpg.18200faa63080716a0eb213055ba2b77.jpg

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1 hour ago, winchfodder said:

Fine for some other ordinary game. This IS the America's Cup and should be the pinnacle of design and sailing ability (and of course VERY expensive and inaccessible).

Good point but half the people on board are not sailors. It is the pinnacle of something but it aint sailing. To be honest sailing of any sort wont appeal to the masses anyway. 

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Maybe Erne$to will come back to be the Challenger of Record because the NYYC plan sounds a lot like the AC90 proposed for AC33

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

But there is little of what the average person would consider sailing ability involved. Staring at a screen while punching buttons. Mindlessly grinding without ever leaving your seat. The only time anyone is on deck is to scamper from one hidden cockpit to another.

Sailing ability, yeah right.

The whole monkey grinder deal is of course daft. Stored power will have to be allowed with batteries and I bet next time around all teams will agree to a rule change (at least TNZ demonstrated an engineering coup last time with cyclors- good on them)!

So the sailors will be left, and what sailors they are. You might think, looking at the boats sail around a tight course relatively smoothly, that there is little skill required. Well you are totally wrong. These are very edgy boats sailing at crazy speeds with massive loads (righting moment). Manoeuvring, maintaining steady flight on the foils in shifty and changing wind strengths and tacking, gybing and bearing away require total concentration. And when the wind is over 20k, wow.

"Sailing ability,  yeah right." As you say. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, chuso007 said:

I have no idea why are you telling me this as it has nothing to do with what I said, but OK.

You said we should go back to J boats and it seriously started some discussion.

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8 minutes ago, barfy said:

You said we should go back to J boats and it seriously started some discussion.

Hey, at least the billionaires would have something to play with when the main event was over.

I assume the rules will include the basics like the boat must carry a full wine cellar, seating and service for the entire crew, and a piano....

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4 hours ago, winchfodder said:

The whole monkey grinder deal is of course daft. Stored power will have to be allowed with batteries and I bet next time around all teams will agree to a rule change (at least TNZ demonstrated an engineering coup last time with cyclors- good on them)!

So the sailors will be left, and what sailors they are. You might think, looking at the boats sail around a tight course relatively smoothly, that there is little skill required. Well you are totally wrong. These are very edgy boats sailing at crazy speeds with massive loads (righting moment). Manoeuvring, maintaining steady flight on the foils in shifty and changing wind strengths and tacking, gybing and bearing away require total concentration. And when the wind is over 20k, wow.

"Sailing ability,  yeah right." As you say. 

 

 

Why limit it to batteries, surely a power plant would be the obvious answer. Unlimited energy to be used.

I agree that the few really needed are very skilled. But hunched over a screen being feed all the data you need is different to standard sailing skills. When will the first top end gamer get to play, if any team could afford them.

So in reality we have a helm, a mainsheet trimmer and a tactician. Which of course removes the most common sailing skill of all. Rail meat...

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10 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Why limit it to batteries, surely a power plant would be the obvious answer. Unlimited energy to be used.

I agree that the few really needed are very skilled. But hunched over a screen being feed all the data you need is different to standard sailing skills. When will the first top end gamer get to play, if any team could afford them.

So in reality we have a helm, a mainsheet trimmer and a tactician. Which of course removes the most common sailing skill of all. Rail meat...

As good as computers get, they won't be able to look at the water and identify pressure and shifts. The turbulent fluid dynamics that create those changes across a racecourse are very complex and the world's leading experts on them happen to be very good sailors. If you want the best sailors in the world, they are good at 3 main things:

  • Positioning a boat in a good spot on the start line >90% of the time
  • Trimming their boat to be fast >90% of the time
  • Being in the right place on the racecourse >90% of the time

With these foiling boats, we effectively add a third sail that needs trimming. So 3 trimmers, a tactician, and a helmsman.

Maybe we could mandate every boat has to have a bowperson. They can be blamed for losses, and complain they don't get enough credit for the wins. BA would probably love that on Ineos right now.

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28 minutes ago, sailer99 said:

As good as computers get, they won't be able to look at the water and identify pressure and shifts. The turbulent fluid dynamics that create those changes across a racecourse are very complex and the world's leading experts on them happen to be very good sailors. If you want the best sailors in the world, they are good at 3 main things:

  • Positioning a boat in a good spot on the start line >90% of the time
  • Trimming their boat to be fast >90% of the time
  • Being in the right place on the racecourse >90% of the time

With these foiling boats, we effectively add a third sail that needs trimming. So 3 trimmers, a tactician, and a helmsman.

Maybe we could mandate every boat has to have a bowperson. They can be blamed for losses, and complain they don't get enough credit for the wins. BA would probably love that on Ineos right now.

If computer systems could never do any of this work why bother with the rules that stop them. Just open it all up to whatever sensors and control systems you want. I think you would find all trimming and foil control would be automated if the rules were opened up. Tactical decisions would be the same. So maybe we get to keep the helm.
 

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Does the AC75 class rule stipulate that the crew must be human.

These can boogie and have the obligatory sailors dog:P

 

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

Does the AC75 class rule stipulate that the crew must be human.

These can boogie and have the obligatory sailors dog:P

 

It actually does :D:

crew.thumb.JPG.a3fcfd453baad9cce6828fb009d57bb2.JPG

 

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39 minutes ago, erdb said:

It actually does :D:

crew.thumb.JPG.a3fcfd453baad9cce6828fb009d57bb2.JPG

 

Love it, someone was certainly thinking about the return of Herbie.

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29 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Love it, someone was certainly thinking about the return of Herbie.

Yup Russell Green would have scripted that clause:P

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12 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Hey, at least the billionaires would have something to play with when the main event was over.

I assume the rules will include the basics like the boat must carry a full wine cellar, seating and service for the entire crew, and a piano....

And most of the dough would go to sailor's salaries, that's gotta be something good.... No?

9 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

He is a know QAnon activist.

Had to google that...:P

 

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4 hours ago, erdb said:

It actually does :D:

crew.thumb.JPG.a3fcfd453baad9cce6828fb009d57bb2.JPG

 

I'm wondering what "light underwear" consists of, a thong?

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2 minutes ago, Misbehavin' said:

I'm wondering what "light underwear" consists of, a thong?

Never had to do a weigh-in?

As light as you can get away with and remain decent because that way you can carry more weight. . Silk-satin is light, or disposable paper ones. Though both need a certain amount of confidence ;)

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1 minute ago, enigmatically2 said:

Never had to do a weigh-in?

As light as you can get away with and remain decent because that way you can carry more weight. . Silk-satin is light, or disposable paper ones. Though both need a certain amount of confidence ;)

Could always employ the services of a body paint artist if feeling super confident. 

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