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I wanted to split this off.

Can someone tell me if:

A - The Capitol Police, various federal cops, and so on are utterly grossly incompetent.

B - They were in on it at the foot soldier level.

C - Their headship was in on it.

D - All of the above.

 

I have worked in some secure places and the response I would have expected was some dead people being hauled out and the rest in a paddy wagon.

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Only one person died. The officials of our government are safe and no fires threatened the building. Explosive devices were found and disarmed. Our politicians are back, within hours, pontificati

I don't have time, again, today, still tryinna catch up  -  but the red-stripe markings on the guns are (apparently, according to a reddit thread) something the Secret Service do (different stickers o

Yes. Just to state the obvious. They went in under the cover of clowns. Clowns are slow but they make good cover and they provide a "can't you take a joke, man" defense in case of failure. The clowns

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Just now, kent_island_sailor said:

I wanted to split this off.

Can someone tell me if:

A - The Capitol Police, various federal cops, and so on are utterly grossly incompetent.

B - They were in on it at the foot soldier level.

C - Their headship was in on it.

D - All of the above.

 

I have worked in some secure places and the response I would have expected was some dead people being hauled out and the rest in a paddy wagon.

The response I would have expected was nobody got in to start with. So I think I'll go with D.

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In the other thread people posted a photo of a cop taking a selfie with the intruders. I posted a video that showed police removing barriers for the intruders.

Complicit

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I am EXTRELEMY relieved taht it was NOT a bunch of shooting. Restraint was a much better outcome. They were buffoons. And idiots. And walking around taking selfies one minute and vandalizing the next. Bizarre.

But shooting them? Rather unsporting. Fish in a barrel.

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51 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I wanted to split this off.

Can someone tell me if:

A - The Capitol Police, various federal cops, and so on are utterly grossly incompetent.

B - They were in on it at the foot soldier level.

C - Their headship was in on it.

D - All of the above.

 

I have worked in some secure places and the response I would have expected was some dead people being hauled out and the rest in a paddy wagon.

Well, these were white people...

Although there are going to be some very unhappy employers and school administrators in the morning when people start recognizing Billy and Suzie whe they see these pics in the morning.

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Back in the ‘60s I lived in DC. Was present during the riots after Dr. King was assassinated.  Had an acquaintance who was a Capitol policeman.  One needed to be politically connected to get the job.  Most of their time back then was spent in getting drunk congresscreatures home at night or safely tucked away to sleep it off. Then there was the more than occasional recreational activity thst needed to be kept hush hush.

The guy who was the police chief where I used to live became the Chief of the Capitol police.  Ran into him in DC several years after his taking the job.  Told me he was trying like hell to depoliticize hiring, promotions, etc but the Congresscritters were reluctant to give up one of their patronage plums.

Sure hope things improved in the ensuing half century.

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47 minutes ago, Mike G said:

Did anything ever happen to the guys that stormed Michigans' house?

We're teaching people there's no accountability.

Being a Michigander at birth, it was a might disturbing to see Lansing in that way.  I mean, I did piss on the steps of the capitol during my college days but I wasn't packing more than my wanker.

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Just now, Sail4beer said:

In Pelosi’s office

Just a couple of years in prison, after all it wasn't a drug crime.

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Me:  You know this is a death penalty case?  Response:  Fuck no man, I didn't kill anyone.

Me:  If it was my house, you'd be dead.

 

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29 minutes ago, hasher said:

Being a Michigander at birth, it was a might disturbing to see Lansing in that way.  I mean, I did piss on the steps of the capitol during my college days but I wasn't packing more than my wanker.

So, small caliber pistol.  But can go off at any time?

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1 minute ago, Mike G said:

So, small caliber pistol.  But can go off at any time?

Not like it used to do. But, who wants to end a good thing?

It may not look like a shot gun, but it feels like it.

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Good article about thee Capitol Police force. Apparently they have 1900 members, could have had a few hundred more there today. The chief of the force should have his resignation in first thing in the morning. (S)he blew up it big time.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/capitol-police-werent-prepared-for-rioters-authorities-say-11609978798

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Only one person died. The officials of our government are safe and no fires threatened the building. Explosive devices were found and disarmed.

Our politicians are back, within hours, pontificating on the disgrace and desecration of the day's events.

At the end of the day, clusterfuck or not, my needs were met. 

I just expect, demand and deserve this cautious approach to law enforcement across our nation in more circumstances than just those encouraged by our nation's historical racial preference. The restraint showed today, to retreat in the face of unlawful aggression, to preserve life at almost all cost was almost heroic.

May the example of these individual officers be a model for dealing with black men driving nice cars across the nation tomorrow.

And may their leaders reflect gravely and investigate their shortcomings which put their officers and the leaders of our nation at risk.

Edited by phillysailor
LEO leaders screwed the pooch
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10 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Good article about thee Capitol Police force. Apparently they have 1900 members, could have had a few hundred more there today. The chief of the force should have his resignation in first thing in the morning. (S)he blew up it big time.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/capitol-police-werent-prepared-for-rioters-authorities-say-11609978798

When a Black Lives Matter protest in Atlanta degenerated it disturbed everyone, for and against.  The Mayor and the Chief calmed the crowd.  Chaos ensued anyway.  The Chief resigned.

It's hard to fix original sin.

These fucknits in our capitol...  Were they bussed in by some oligarch?  Who'd a thunk they'd break in while don was munching on cheeseburgers and fries and admiring his hair?

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Yes.   They were bussed in AND supplied with flags etc.  We had the advertisements on the AM stations here in Michigan for several days.

This was planned, orchestrated,and carried out by the Republican party.

And when I challenged my relatives on it, I was told to "just wait because all your seeing is the Democrat news Media.  They aren't letting the Republicans talk."

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7 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

Yes.   They were bussed in AND supplied with flags etc.  We had the advertisements on the AM stations here in Michigan for several days.

This was planned, orchestrated,and carried out by the Republican party.

And when I challenged my relatives on it, I was told to "just wait because all your seeing is the Democrat news Media.  They aren't letting the Republicans talk."

You need new relatives.

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

I am EXTRELEMY relieved taht it was NOT a bunch of shooting. Restraint was a much better outcome. They were buffoons. And idiots. And walking around taking selfies one minute and vandalizing the next. Bizarre.

But shooting them? Rather unsporting. Fish in a barrel.

Yeah, but a good cull is sometimes needed to keep the species healthy.

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Just now, Burning Man said:

Snub nose?

Chief's special if you must know.  I'm playing chief.

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3 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Nah, it only snubs his nipples.

My nipples point high, big boy.

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12 minutes ago, bowman81 said:

Not sure where to ask this but can anyone clarify the red markings on the guns in these images? 

Screenshot_20210107-125512.jpg

Screenshot_20210107-125416.jpg

I think those are from the office gun jar.

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1 hour ago, phillysailor said:

Only one person died. The officials of our government are safe and no fires threatened the building. Explosive devices were found and disarmed.

Our politicians are back, within hours, pontificating on the disgrace and desecration of the day's events.

At the end of the day, clusterfuck or not, my needs were met. 

I just expect, demand and deserve this cautious approach to law enforcement across our nation in more circumstances than just those encouraged by our nation's historical racial preference. The restraint showed today, to retreat in the face of unlawful aggression, to preserve life at almost all cost was almost heroic.

May the example of these individual officers be a model for dealing with black men driving nice cars across the nation tomorrow.

And may their leaders reflect gravely and investigate their shortcomings which put their officers and the leaders of our nation at risk.

Nailed my sentiments exactly. Well stated

 

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4 minutes ago, notallthere said:
1 hour ago, phillysailor said:

Only one person died. The officials of our government are safe and no fires threatened the building. Explosive devices were found and disarmed.

Our politicians are back, within hours, pontificating on the disgrace and desecration of the day's events.

At the end of the day, clusterfuck or not, my needs were met. 

I just expect, demand and deserve this cautious approach to law enforcement across our nation in more circumstances than just those encouraged by our nation's historical racial preference. The restraint showed today, to retreat in the face of unlawful aggression, to preserve life at almost all cost was almost heroic.

May the example of these individual officers be a model for dealing with black men driving nice cars across the nation tomorrow.

And may their leaders reflect gravely and investigate their shortcomings which put their officers and the leaders of our nation at risk.

Nailed my sentiments exactly. Well stated

Philly is one of the guys whose posts are always worth reading.

- DSK

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11 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Philly is one of the guys whose posts are always worth reading.

- DSK

The first thing I thought of when I saw this all happening: god, imagine if it was black people storming the capitol. Yep. White Privilege at work.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

The first thing I thought of when I saw this all happening: god, imagine if it was black people storming the capitol. Yep. White Privilege at work. 

 

A few news commentators actually said that, several times. Another one said "Whatever their grievances are, lack of food isn't one of them" which I found surprising the producer let go thru, on air. Maybe their editorial standards were also under siege?

All I can say is, law enforcement YES, civil war NOT YET... hopefully never.

- DSK

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I imagine a lot of cops there WERE sympathetic to the protestors.

I can also imagine the thought process of those in charge: "I bet a LOT of these idiots brought guns. If ANYBODY starts shooting, then lots of people draw weapons and start shooting at cops, and we shoot back. And a lot die.  Maybe treat them like mentally disabled younger brothers and just let them inside and try to minimize the harm...."

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4 minutes ago, Zonker said:

I imagine a lot of cops there WERE sympathetic to the protestors.

I can also imagine the thought process of those in charge: "I bet a LOT of these idiots brought guns. If ANYBODY starts shooting, then lots of people draw weapons and start shooting at cops, and we shoot back. And a lot die.  Maybe treat them like mentally disabled younger brothers and just let them inside and try to minimize the harm...."

I want to know the different divisions. And someone needs to do a comprehensive mapping and pic/video walkthrough. The guys with the little pistols drawn were obviously a different category than the ones walking around not doing much.

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

Yes.   They were bussed in AND supplied with flags etc.  We had the advertisements on the AM stations here in Michigan for several days.

This was planned, orchestrated,and carried out by the Republican party.

This is important - any other info out there on local or regional GOP organizations being involved in this ?? 

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1 hour ago, bowman81 said:

Not sure where to ask this but can anyone clarify the red markings on the guns in these images? 

Screenshot_20210107-125512.jpg

Screenshot_20210107-125416.jpg

It's the rifling twist direction.

Some guys prefer clockwise, some counter.  Usually the preference is because somebody is left-handed and the recoil

kicks in a more favorable way.  The spring inside is wound to match the rifling.

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1 hour ago, hasher said:

Chief's special if you must know.  I'm playing chief.

Ok. Nice . A S@W 5shot. Gave mine to my sister in Philly years ago. Hope she hasn’t  used it

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Just now, Sail4beer said:

Ok. Nice . A S@W 5shot. Gave mine to my sister in Philly years ago. Hope she hasn’t  used it

To kill a person is not a thing to take lightly.  Justifiable killings often weigh heavy.

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the Pigs were in kindergarten mode; white priviledge. bummer.

death to right-wing ideology.

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9 minutes ago, Mike G said:

It's the rifling twist direction.

Some guys prefer clockwise, some counter.  Usually the preference is because somebody is left-handed and the recoil

kicks in a more favorable way.  The spring inside is wound to match the rifling.

Thanks, I've never seen these markings before so does this mean they're not personal (I mean permanently assigned) weapons retrieved from a gun locker or... 

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I’ve drawn and luckily defused a few bad situations back in the day in Philly as concealed carry permit holder. Not proud, but glad I could help victims in need escape without any attempt to overreach the role I played, which was like Barney Fife undercover...

Carrying a gun is very nerve wracking if you are an average citizen looking for protection against your fellow man. I found it easier to move and lose the guns.

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2 minutes ago, bowman81 said:

Thanks, I've never seen these markings before so does this mean they're not personal (I mean permanently assigned) weapons retrieved from a gun locker or... 

I made up every word of that.  Totally false.

Sorry...I needed a bit of a laugh today.

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3 minutes ago, bowman81 said:

Thanks, I've never seen these markings before so does this mean they're not personal (I mean permanently assigned) weapons retrieved from a gun locker or... 

they're simple reference stickers, all about visibility.

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10 minutes ago, Mike G said:

I made up every word of that.  Totally false.

Sorry...I needed a bit of a laugh today.

Well fuck... And here i was thinking I could believe everything on the internet... I'm off to go find the word gullible in the dictionary, I was told they took it out in this year's edition... 

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25 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I’ve drawn and luckily defused a few bad situations back in the day in Philly as concealed carry permit holder. Not proud, but glad I could help victims in need escape without any attempt to overreach the role I played, which was like Barney Fife undercover...

Carrying a gun is very nerve wracking if you are an average citizen looking for protection against your fellow man. I found it easier to move and lose the guns.

Fuckin A right on that last sentence I tried it once when I was riding public transit late at night & it totally freaked me out, just be safe, so I thought I slipped a Browning 32 into the inside pocket of the leather coat I was wearing (no permit or anything), just the feel of having the damn thing with me was enough, never did it again.

 

 

 

 

 

Little qualifier here, my brother shot himself with that pistol, very relieved when I sold the cursed thing to some old geezer for 80 bucks.

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49 minutes ago, Mike G said:

I made up every word of that.  Totally false.

Sorry...I needed a bit of a laugh today.

That was beautiful.    

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I was standing on the MLK, Jr. stop.  The platform was empty.  Except, a black person approached.  He walked up on me.  He showed me his gun. You know, that little piece that you'd be ashamed to own.  Maybe his gun was like a Saturday night special. That gentleman told me it was sometimes dangerous after dark.  I felt safer.

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4 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I wanted to split this off.

Can someone tell me if:

A - The Capitol Police, various federal cops, and so on are utterly grossly incompetent.

B - They were in on it at the foot soldier level.

C - Their headship was in on it.

D - All of the above.

 

I have worked in some secure places and the response I would have expected was some dead people being hauled out and the rest in a paddy wagon.

Don't know if they were incompetent yet. For all we know they only had a couple dozen guys. Seems to me they got all the politicians out of harms way and there is only one person killed. If reports are correct they arrested about 50. Not too shabby when dealing with a couple thousand thugs. 

 

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I see FOX is trying in a half-ass way to blame the cops for all this. Their coverage is oddly lame and un-focused. IMO their talking heads have been cautioned to not take any definitive stands for the moment, indicates the management hasn't decided what to do. They are in a tough spot. 

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2 minutes ago, Mark K said:

I see FOX is trying in a half-ass way to blame the cops for all this. Their coverage is oddly lame and un-focused. IMO their talking heads have been cautioned to not take any definitive stands for the moment, indicates the management hasn't decided what to do. They are in a tough spot. 

Was little don eating popcorn the whole time or cheeseburgers?

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7 minutes ago, Mark K said:

I see FOX is trying in a half-ass way to blame the cops for all this. Their coverage is oddly lame and un-focused. IMO their talking heads have been cautioned to not take any definitive stands for the moment, indicates the management hasn't decided what to do. They are in a tough spot. 

Yeah, and the "I've been to a lot of trump rallies, and they didn't wear helmets.  This crowd was DIFFERENT" kind of distraction.

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8 minutes ago, Mike G said:

Yeah, and the "I've been to a lot of trump rallies, and they didn't wear helmets.  This crowd was DIFFERENT" kind of distraction.

 Like actors who showed up but somebody forgot the scripts...and the curtain rose on them.  

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5 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

B - They were in on it at the foot soldier level.

The Capital cops, that is. 

Some evidence of that . . 

(interesting and provocative comments too; were the rioters in touch with the White House ??) 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/1/6/2006489/-D-C-Capitol-Police-Appear-To-Have-Opened-Gates-To-Mob-Not-Good

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4 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

The Capital cops, that is. 

Some evidence of that . . 

(interesting and provocative comments too; were the rioters in touch with the White House ??) 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/1/6/2006489/-D-C-Capitol-Police-Appear-To-Have-Opened-Gates-To-Mob-Not-Good

Whatever the facts turn out to be, the visuals of previous protests where the cops give proud boys water, and flash WP signs at them is NOT a good look.

I think we'd all be surprised if we knew the amount of racism in law enforcement.

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3 minutes ago, Mike G said:

I think we'd all be surprised if we knew the amount of racism in law enforcement.

You might be surprised, me . . . less so. 

Although I know a number of fine not-very-racist police officers. 

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1 hour ago, Mike G said:

It's the rifling twist direction.

Some guys prefer clockwise, some counter.  Usually the preference is because somebody is left-handed and the recoil

kicks in a more favorable way.  The spring inside is wound to match the rifling.

It's to compensate for Coriolis effect. Right hand rifling in the northern hemisphere, left hand down under. 

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The chief of the Capitol Police is named Sund.  I don't know how he didn't immediately tender his resignation or get sacked already, this was a gross failure in security, if a few of those people were determined to shoot the place up or blow things up it would have been a bloodbath.  Just because they didn't doesn't excuse it, that's sheer luck.

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13 minutes ago, Mike G said:

Whatever the facts turn out to be, the visuals of previous protests where the cops give proud boys water, and flash WP signs at them is NOT a good look.

I think we'd all be surprised if we knew the amount of racism in law enforcement.

After forty years in the deep south, no surprises in my mind except after a deep dive the light is shining.  Am I dead?  Ground control to captain tom...

Yes I know, Yankees tend to be perfect and condescending.   

People around here think I talk funny.  

Is self defense a rational response?

What bugs me remains the fact that people fucked over for a few hundred years can't take the joke.  How stupid is that?

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Surprised? Police (and firemen) are the ultimate in socialized boy’s clubs. Rotten to the core. Plus egos, privilege, unaccountability and power. If there are good ones they have learned to not stand out. And now four years of encouragement from Trump. I bet the membership overlap of Proud Boys and police is huge. A perfect storm of testosterone, cosplay, guns, mismanagement and low IQ.

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3 minutes ago, hobot said:

Ain't that the truth...

GettyImages-1230453292-1.jpg

I'm sure we spend millions on law enforcement for the beacon of our democracy, and duck dynasty walks right in?

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1 minute ago, Mike G said:

I'm sure we spend millions on law enforcement for the beacon of our democracy, and duck dynasty walks right in?

Roll the 9/11 tape: “Nobody could have known.”

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8 hours ago, Mark K said:

I see FOX is trying in a half-ass way to blame the cops for all this. Their coverage is oddly lame and un-focused. IMO their talking heads have been cautioned to not take any definitive stands for the moment, indicates the management hasn't decided what to do. They are in a tough spot. 

I tuned in to Fox briefly to see how they were reporting the mayhem. When they showed the one image of capitol police standing with weapons drawn down on rioters splayed on the floor inside the building they commented how the rioters are fearing for their lives, as if they were victims and the cops were the aggressors.

 

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The cops decided to change it up after having been made to look incompetent fools at best or possibly complicit at worst.

I'm fairly suspicious that this was worse than incompetence (though there is no proof that we know of right now) and feel that the possibility should at least be investigated.  This would of course likely require the FBI hauling in some of the people who aren't currently in custody after identifying them from all their phone selfies and Facebook/Instagram videos and shining the light on them.

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7 hours ago, Mike G said:

Whatever the facts turn out to be, the visuals of previous protests where the cops give proud boys water, and flash WP signs at them is NOT a good look.

I think we'd all be surprised if we knew the amount of racism in law enforcement.

Not all - sadly.

 

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8 hours ago, Mark K said:

Don't know if they were incompetent yet. For all we know they only had a couple dozen guys. Seems to me they got all the politicians out of harms way and there is only one person killed. If reports are correct they arrested about 50. Not too shabby when dealing with a couple thousand thugs. 

 

They were in on it. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them were. They knew this was coming. 

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12 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

They were in on it. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them were. They knew this was coming. 

Check out the video of the "barricade. " 

Either unthinkable incompetence or complicit

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/shocking-tiktok-video-shows-moment-capitol-rioters-easily-broke-through-police-barricades?ref=home

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14 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:
8 hours ago, Mark K said:

Don't know if they were incompetent yet. For all we know they only had a couple dozen guys. Seems to me they got all the politicians out of harms way and there is only one person killed. If reports are correct they arrested about 50. Not too shabby when dealing with a couple thousand thugs. 

 

They were in on it. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them were. They knew this was coming. 

Yep, no doubt there are Trumpalos among the cops.

The real question is, going thru the chain of command, how much outright Trump loyalty, how much incompetence, how much suffering from command confusion sown by muddled and contradictory orders?

Acting Sec. Miller who denied requests for National Guard ought to be shitcanned as of yesterday evening. And told to stand by for criminal proceedings when the new sheriff finally rides into town

- DSK

 

 

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35 minutes ago, BrickTopHarry said:

The cops decided to change it up after having been made to look incompetent fools at best or possibly complicit at worst.

I'm fairly suspicious that this was worse than incompetence (though there is no proof that we know of right now) and feel that the possibility should at least be investigated.  This would of course likely require the FBI hauling in some of the people who aren't currently in custody after identifying them from all their phone selfies and Facebook/Instagram videos and shining the light on them.

That looked like DC police. The problems earlier were the Capitol police, so two different police depts. Something does seem off in the response of the Capitol police. I hope that a full investigation will uncover whether that was simply a lack of imagination as to what might be coming, whether it was incompetence, lack of preparedness, or whether they were in part complicit. 

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10 hours ago, fastyacht said:

I want to know the different divisions. And someone needs to do a comprehensive mapping and pic/video walkthrough. The guys with the little pistols drawn were obviously a different category than the ones walking around not doing much.

IMHO,the guys with the candy cane pistols look like secret service guys tasked with protecting the critters...  Obviously on another level...  What did they barracade the door with? A couple filing cabinets??  LOL

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10 hours ago, Mike G said:

It's the rifling twist direction.

Some guys prefer clockwise, some counter.  Usually the preference is because somebody is left-handed and the recoil

kicks in a more favorable way.  The spring inside is wound to match the rifling.

Srsly???  Fucking Jedi...  

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3 minutes ago, shaggy said:
10 hours ago, Mike G said:

It's the rifling twist direction.

Some guys prefer clockwise, some counter.  Usually the preference is because somebody is left-handed and the recoil

kicks in a more favorable way.  The spring inside is wound to match the rifling.

Srsly???  Fucking Jedi...  

They should have gone with green handles.

These scissors are sinister | The Chawed Rosin

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9 hours ago, Mark K said:

Don't know if they were incompetent yet. For all we know they only had a couple dozen guys. Seems to me they got all the politicians out of harms way and there is only one person killed. If reports are correct they arrested about 50. Not too shabby when dealing with a couple thousand thugs. 

 

If the only had "a couple of dozen guys", the entire leadership needs to be fired and charged with dereliction.  Anyone who has been paying attention knew there was going to be a situation in DC on the 6th.  You had the President calling out to them to come.  You had cronies of the President calling for violence.  You had the Trump supporters bragging about how they would dress in black and make it look like it was ANTIFA fucking up shit.  I knew it was going to happen, If you have been paying attention, YOU knew it was going to happen.

And the Capitol Police knew "ground zero" for this outrage was going to be in the building they are supposed to secure and protect.  Anything less than a full show is incompetence.

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I guess I'm gonna have to disagree with most of the folks here.  The entire mess yesterday resulted in the loss of 1 life.  That's a tragedy, but also a win.

If we fall victim to a mentality of increasing levels of response, we all lose.  It's like raising a rebellious teen.  You tell them stop, they defy you.  You ground them, they defy you.  You take away their stuff, they defy you.  Whip them with a belt, defy you.  Just how high a level of response are you willing to do?  Is the point to beat them into submission, or let them learn that they're wrong?

I would have liked to see more non-lethal response.  Much more tear-gas.  Break out the vomit gas.  Mace.  Water cannons.  Make it fucking uncomfortable to be there.  But don't hurt them if you can avoid it.

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The failure wasn't that the cops didn't fire wildly into a crowd when overrun and massively outnumbered.  It's that they had ample warning and preparation time for this event and didn't have the force to deter any such thing happening in the first place.

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