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Maybe Storming The Capitol Wasn't Such A Good Idea


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2 minutes ago, mad said:

There’s just no clear way of dealing with this without seriously pissing people off, or sending wrong messages. 

True, and I'd rather piss off the people who commit acts of sedition and send them the message "there will be serious consequences for you and anyone else attempting this".

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Some folks take great pride in their ignorance and go out of their way to flaunt it, even to exaggerate it. They like to show it off like they are wearing a lair of the latest Air Jordans. I don't get

You are talking about folks that were taking selfies, some with their company IDs hanging from their necks. Burner phones to cover their tracks?  I'm surprised they didn't order delivered pizzas

The judge was rather eloquent in his denial of bail.   https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2021/02/22/marion-county-couple-accused-of-plotting-with-oath-keepers-during-capitol-riot-denied-bai

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1 minute ago, mad said:

There’s just no clear way of dealing with this without seriously pissing people off, or sending wrong messages. 

Like I said, Biden stays a million miles away.  DOJ does it's thing.  If the insurrectionists want to apply for pardon after?  Have at it.

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31 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

No

Trump would either pardon them all, or the worst of them: the ones that plotted, intended all along to kill Pence and Pelosi and possibly more. Biden would pardon the ones who weren't in on the plot but just swept up in the rioting.

After letting them sweat and fret a while

- DSK

Would you support Biden pardoning some of these rioters?

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Just now, roundthebuoys said:

Like I said, Biden stays a million miles away.  DOJ does it's thing.  If the insurrectionists want to apply for pardon after?  Have at it.

The US needs 6 months to a year of quiet, reasonably competent leadership, which hopefully Biden and the dems can deliver, before things start to settle down.  The outraged voices of Fox and co. will continue for some time yet, unless something else comes along to distract them.  Maybe a big asteroid needs to give the earth a near miss or something. 

The real mystery is the end game for the Q's.   This is the first time that a whacko conspiracy theory has gone somewhat mainstream.  

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10 minutes ago, mad said:

There’s just no clear way of dealing with this without seriously pissing people off, or sending wrong messages. It’s going to take a generation or 2 for this to fade, if ever. 

Someone/group is going to grossly overstep a la Timothy McVeigh.  That will break the fever and the right wing wacadoodles will slink back under their rock much like they did after Oklahoma City, for another 20 years.

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5 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Would you support Biden pardoning some of these rioters?

No.  There are plenty of weed dealers waiting a lot longer than these assholes.  Let the next President handle this mess.  Anyone who is tried and convicted  deserves at least four years.

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1 hour ago, roundthebuoys said:

No.  There are plenty of weed dealers waiting a lot longer than these assholes.  Let the next President handle this mess.  Anyone who is tried and convicted  deserves at least four years.

Cripes, ain't that the truth.

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4 hours ago, Mark K said:

The same could be said about Cleveland's Dog Pound. 

Now you are just being stupid.  I'd like to presume intentionally to give you the benefit of the doubt or just flailing at an attempt at humor.  But in truth, just plain stupid.

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2 hours ago, Rain Man said:

The real mystery is the end game for the Q's.   This is the first time that a whacko conspiracy theory has gone somewhat mainstream.  

Hate to quote myself but on that note:  

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pizzagate-twitter-defamation-giustra-1.5874201

TL;DR: QAnons on Twitter accused this gentleman of being part of the Q-conspiracy's alleged global pedophile ring.  He is suing Twitter for defamation because Twitter didn't remove the defamatory posts.  No Section 230 in Canada.

Twitter defended by saying it doesn't do business in Canada.  They lost, case goes ahead.

The Gab.com folks who are taking on all the Parler alt-right users better keep this in mind. 

With a bit of luck and some good lawyers maybe we can reach the point where anyone spouting QAnon bullshit gets booted from social media.  

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2 hours ago, BrickTopHarry said:

Anyone who entered the Capitol wasn't "swept up".

Exactly.  These are people who traveled hundred or thousands of miles to experience just being "swept up" and "in the moment"  Yeah right.

 

why-cell-networks-cut-out-at-the-us-capitol-riot_4bpr.1920.jpg

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5 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Agree with a caveat - make them commit to attending say 100 hours of civics classes and some form of logic/bullshit detection classes. Successful completion, get a pardon.

Locking up a bunch of deluded right wing fuckwits with lots of other right wing racist fuckwits is just going to make them cluster together in jail for mutual protection and reinforcement. You want to break that up at the start.

Same exception for those carrying weapons, cuffs etc - they went in with a purpose, they failed, no pardon for them.

FKT

Just heard an advert on local fm.  some sort of pledge to review media and to actually think.  no link now, but will write it down next time it on.  Seems like there are some $$ people putting realignment adds out there.  Not counting on it down south, but maybe we get some of the centrists/real GOP types back from the ledge with targeted adds and the truth through social media etc.. 

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2 hours ago, Rain Man said:

The US needs 6 months to a year of quiet, reasonably competent leadership, which hopefully Biden and the dems can deliver, before things start to settle down.  The outraged voices of Fox and co. will continue for some time yet, unless something else comes along to distract them.  Maybe a big asteroid needs to give the earth a near miss or something. 

The real mystery is the end game for the Q's.   This is the first time that a whacko conspiracy theory has gone somewhat mainstream.  

Did any of the organizing tactical geniuses try to game out the most likely end result of this planned assault?

Even if they "succeeded" and hung Mike Pence and took Pelosi hostage and got the vote stopped, even then, how was it not going to end with the army surrounding the Captiol Building with troops and tanks and gas and utter defeat. 

Did they really think that the Mad Mango had enough respect from and command of the armed forces not have the army just  dump all their asses on the field at Stadium Formerly Known As Redskins and start taking names and handing out space blankets?  

 

Remember the letter that the 10 former Secretaries of Defense sent out just a week or so ago.  It seems that they really saw something like this as a possibility.  And I don't think it is a coincidence that the daughter of the  instigator of that letter, Dick Cheney, has been one of the loudest voices for impeachment.

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5 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Send them TO the Chinese reeducation centers.

Offer China a break on tariffs to take them.

No, Az, to the tent camps to cook.

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5 hours ago, Mark K said:

The same could be said about Cleveland's Dog Pound. 

But they actually wear masks...  

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9 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Did any of the organizing tactical geniuses try to game out the most likely end result of this planned assault?

Even if they "succeeded" and hung Mike Pence and took Pelosi hostage and got the vote stopped, even then, how was it not going to end with the army surrounding the Captiol Building with troops and tanks and gas and utter defeat. 

Did they really think that the Mad Mango had enough of the respect and command of the armed forces not have the army just  dump all their asses on the field at Stadium Formerly Known As Redskins and start taking names and handing out space blankets?  

These are Trump's people. The fallout is inconsequential, what matters is the initial media impact.

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2 hours ago, Rain Man said:

The US needs 6 months to a year of quiet, reasonably competent leadership, which hopefully Biden and the dems can deliver, before things start to settle down.  The outraged voices of Fox and co. will continue for some time yet, unless something else comes along to distract them.  Maybe a big asteroid needs to give the earth a near miss or something. 

The real mystery is the end game for the Q's.   This is the first time that a whacko conspiracy theory has gone somewhat mainstream.  

read somewhere that conspiracy theories on the insets are down biggley since shitstain got banned by the twits.. 

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Biden should pardon Julian Assange (even though he's kind of a weasel), 

and Reality Winner (great name, wot ?) 

and Eric Snowdon 

and all the other brave national security whistle blowers  . . 

Kiriaku and . . .  

Vets For Peace 

image.jpeg.c8570841a891bc08be87780a93a6bc1a.jpeg

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2 hours ago, shaggy said:

read somewhere that conspiracy theories on the insets are down biggley since shitstain got banned by the twits.. 

73% reduction in election fuckery tweets on twitter since the Mango got juiced.

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30 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Biden should pardon Julian Assange (even though he's kind of a weasel), 

and Reality Winner (great name, wot ?) 

and Edward Snowdon 

and all the other brave national security whistle blowers  . . 

Kiriaku and . . .  

Vets For Peace 

image.jpeg.c8570841a891bc08be87780a93a6bc1a.jpeg

FIFY

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2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Exactly.  These are people who traveled hundred or thousands of miles to experience just being "swept up" and "in the moment"  Yeah right.

 

why-cell-networks-cut-out-at-the-us-capitol-riot_4bpr.1920.jpg

It's like Woodstock, except everybody took the brown acid to start with.

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3 hours ago, Rain Man said:
3 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Biden should pardon Julian Assange (even though he's kind of a weasel), 

and Reality Winner (great name, wot ?) 

and Edward Snowdon 

and all the other brave national security whistle blowers  . . 

Kiriaku and . . .  

Vets For Peace 

image.jpeg.c8570841a891bc08be87780a93a6bc1a.jpeg

FIFY

I agree with AJ and just hope Biden actually knows how to spell Snowden so it goes to the right person.

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As President Trump prepares to leave office in days, a lucrative market for pardons is coming to a head, with some of his allies collecting fees from wealthy felons or their associates to push the White House for clemency, according to documents and interviews with more than three dozen lobbyists and lawyers.

The brisk market for pardons reflects the access peddling that has defined Mr. Trump’s presidency as well as his unorthodox approach to exercising unchecked presidential clemency powers. Pardons and commutations are intended to show mercy to deserving recipients, but Mr. Trump has used many of them to reward personal or political allies.

The pardon lobbying heated up as it became clear that Mr. Trump had no recourse for challenging his election defeat, lobbyists and lawyers say. One lobbyist, Brett Tolman, a former federal prosecutor who has been advising the White House on pardons and commutations, has monetized his clemency work, collecting tens of thousands of dollars, and possibly more, in recent weeks to lobby the White House for clemency for the son of a former Arkansas senator; the founder of the notorious online drug marketplace Silk Road; and a Manhattan socialite who pleaded guilty in a fraud scheme.

Prospect of Pardons in Final Days Fuels Market to Buy Access to Trump

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7 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Biden should pardon Julian Assange (even though he's kind of a weasel), 

and Reality Winner (great name, wot ?) 

and Eric Snowdon 

and all the other brave national security whistle blowers  . . 

Kiriaku and . . .  

Vets For Peace 

image.jpeg.c8570841a891bc08be87780a93a6bc1a.jpeg

Shitstain was the beneficiary of Assange. If Shitstain wants Assange pardoned, he can do it. As far as I'm concerned, he can rot.

I agree on Kiriaku. But Snowden, no.

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10 hours ago, Left Shift said:
13 hours ago, Rain Man said:

The US needs 6 months to a year of quiet, reasonably competent leadership, which hopefully Biden and the dems can deliver, before things start to settle down.  The outraged voices of Fox and co. will continue for some time yet, unless something else comes along to distract them.  Maybe a big asteroid needs to give the earth a near miss or something. 

The real mystery is the end game for the Q's.   This is the first time that a whacko conspiracy theory has gone somewhat mainstream.  

Did any of the organizing tactical geniuses try to game out the most likely end result of this planned assault?

Even if they "succeeded" and hung Mike Pence and took Pelosi hostage and got the vote stopped, even then, how was it not going to end with the army surrounding the Captiol Building with troops and tanks and gas and utter defeat. 

Did they really think that the Mad Mango had enough respect from and command of the armed forces not have the army just  dump all their asses on the field at Stadium Formerly Known As Redskins and start taking names and handing out space blankets?  

 

Remember the letter that the 10 former Secretaries of Defense sent out just a week or so ago.  It seems that they really saw something like this as a possibility.  And I don't think it is a coincidence that the daughter of the  instigator of that letter, Dick Cheney, has been one of the loudest voices for impeachment.

All it takes is a few.

A lot IMHO would hinge on the Trumpers at the top being relatively calm and sane, and backing Trump without igniting immediate and vigorous opposition. That would take care of the first few days. Then the Supreme Court weighs in.

It is very likely that the success of Trump's attempted coup would spark more violence, and probably depend on some more violence in a few places. It is more likely that initial success would touch off a civil war of Trump-loyal military against everybody else. When one general attempts to place another general under arrest, their personal leadership of the troops around them becomes the deciding factor in how the arrest plays out.

It seems most likely to me that the "Trump Uber Alles" level of loyalty is pretty small among the military -and- the key technocratic parts of the civil service. Guys who do a complex job don't generally fall for fabulist bullshit and fantasy-land promises. But as has been said elsewhere, arguments become much more persuasive when you can point a gun at them. So the most likely outcome is a widespread civil war, the civil institutions holding the country fall apart, and the USA is done. Even if Trump loses, eventually.

- DSK

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9 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

All it takes is a few.

A lot IMHO would hinge on the Trumpers at the top being relatively calm and sane, and backing Trump without igniting immediate and vigorous opposition. That would take care of the first few days. Then the Supreme Court weighs in.

It is very likely that the success of Trump's attempted coup would spark more violence, and probably depend on some more violence in a few places. It is more likely that initial success would touch off a civil war of Trump-loyal military against everybody else. When one general attempts to place another general under arrest, their personal leadership of the troops around them becomes the deciding factor in how the arrest plays out.

It seems most likely to me that the "Trump Uber Alles" level of loyalty is pretty small among the military -and- the key technocratic parts of the civil service. Guys who do a complex job don't generally fall for fabulist bullshit and fantasy-land promises. But as has been said elsewhere, arguments become much more persuasive when you can point a gun at them. So the most likely outcome is a widespread civil war, the civil institutions holding the country fall apart, and the USA is done. Even if Trump loses, eventually.

- DSK

I anticipate the dumpster fire will burn away with little don.

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15 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

A lot of them went in, long enough after the door was broken down that they may not have even realized what happened until they got home and saw it on the news.

- DSK

A jury can listen to that argument

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4 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Shitstain was the beneficiary of Assange. If Shitstain wants Assange pardoned, he can do it. As far as I'm concerned, he can rot.

I agree on Kiriaku. But Snowden, no.

Assange has always been a far right/Russian tool. Fuck that asshole.

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18 hours ago, mikewof said:

So if Trump pardoned this gaggle of maniacs we would object, but if Biden pardoned the same gaggle of maniacs we would applaud him?

I agree with you on the outcome though. And it wouldn't bother me if the magnanimous king bestowed his gentle words of forgiveness to the disgraced knights. Fuck, I feel manipulated.

To make sense of it just keep in mind Trump incited it and the intent was to deny Biden the results of the election.

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I think these types of dog whistles, and commands, and weasel words are very common among the prosecutors

that deal with mob bosses daily.

"The 5" on fox may be able to spin it different ways, but we have a long history with dealing with mob bosses in court.

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15 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Now you are just being stupid.  I'd like to presume intentionally to give you the benefit of the doubt or just flailing at an attempt at humor.  But in truth, just plain stupid.

In a way it is. However it is as, if not more stupid to ignore that those people were acting at the behest of the President of the United States and had been fed lies by America's #1 news network for months, among others.  

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Just now, Mark K said:

In a way it is. However it is as, if not more stupid to ignore that those people were acting at the behest of the President of the United States and had been fed lies by America's #1 news network for months, among others.  

In the past, people like that were only out a few bucks for an elixir that didn't do anything, or maybe had a degree from a worthless university that cost them thousands.

To make the jump from "stupid where they spend their money" to "stupid because they stormed the capitol" takes brain functions that are dangerous to others.

And it needs to be dealt with harshly.

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1 minute ago, Mike G said:

In the past, people like that were only out a few bucks for an elixir that didn't do anything, or maybe had a degree from a worthless university that cost them thousands.

To make the jump from "stupid where they spend their money" to "stupid because they stormed the capitol" takes brain functions that are dangerous to others.

And it needs to be dealt with harshly.

Very much so, but we should be careful. Making martyrs out of mostly-harmless Karens would be unwise. A key aspect of their propaganda is an entire demographic is under attack. There will be dozens who deserve and can get the harsh. 

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20 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Very much so, but we should be careful. Making martyrs out of mostly-harmless Karens would be unwise. A key aspect of their propaganda is an entire demographic is under attack. There will be dozens who deserve and can get the harsh. 

Right wing victimhood has been a thing for decades. It was a thing at Kristallnacht. It is a core value of the 2A. It is a core value of stahts rites. It will be a thing for the duration. I wouldn't do or not do anything based on whether or not it offended right wing victimhood.

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18 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Very much so, but we should be careful. Making martyrs out of mostly-harmless Karens would be unwise. A key aspect of their propaganda is an entire demographic is under attack. There will be dozens who deserve and can get the harsh. 

There is an excellent post in the Heather thread today about the history of this.  It explains how right wing Americans came to feel oppressed and under attack from the government.   As an outsider I would be interested in opinions on that article.  

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1 minute ago, Rain Man said:

There is an excellent post in the Heather thread today about the history of this.  It explains how right wing Americans came to feel oppressed and under attack from the government.   As an outsider I would be interested in opinions on that article.  

Can you repost it ? Or give it its own thread ? Or somehow make it easy to find ? 

For what it is worth, I would be willing to comment . . 

after the Browns game 

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23 hours ago, hobie1616 said:

If Biden did cut the stoopid ones lose, there should be a lot of community service as part of the deal.  A lot of community service.

What useful skills do they offer?    The obvious one is free gunsmithing for inner city residents who feel the need for self defense against angry profa racist militias.   

 The biggest reason to charge failed seditionists is to take away their gun rights.   It will make the next attempt harder when they are only legally able to use a bow and arrow.   

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21 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Can you repost it ? Or give it its own thread ? Or somehow make it easy to find ? 

For what it is worth, I would be willing to comment . . 

after the Browns game 

The Heather thread, currently several threads below this one but may get bumped up daily. Bus Driver included her daily posts from 1/7-onward, or just follow it on Substack; Worth a read: 

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

All it takes is a few.

A lot IMHO would hinge on the Trumpers at the top being relatively calm and sane, and backing Trump without igniting immediate and vigorous opposition. That would take care of the first few days. Then the Supreme Court weighs in.

It is very likely that the success of Trump's attempted coup would spark more violence, and probably depend on some more violence in a few places. It is more likely that initial success would touch off a civil war of Trump-loyal military against everybody else. When one general attempts to place another general under arrest, their personal leadership of the troops around them becomes the deciding factor in how the arrest plays out.

It seems most likely to me that the "Trump Uber Alles" level of loyalty is pretty small among the military -and- the key technocratic parts of the civil service. Guys who do a complex job don't generally fall for fabulist bullshit and fantasy-land promises. But as has been said elsewhere, arguments become much more persuasive when you can point a gun at them. So the most likely outcome is a widespread civil war, the civil institutions holding the country fall apart, and the USA is done. Even if Trump loses, eventually.

- DSK

Nah.  Your war gaming above assumes that anyone in the leadership levels of the military would go along with this.  At best, he'd have a few scattered lower ranking officers and more than a few enlisted.  But none of them would have the authority to blatantly violate their oaths and go against the Connie.  Ret Gen Flynn is an anomaly, IMHO.  I work with a LOT of retired military officers and most of them are pro-trump, many very pro-trump.  And even they are saying shitstain crossed a line.  So no, I don't see more than a scattering of uniformed military even thinking of sticking with him in an obvious coup attempt.  

And as you said, the bulk of the civil service guys have been mostly appalled at his handling of the gov't over the last 4 years.  I don't see them following orders from a dicktator.  And without them, the gov't ceases to function.  There won't be enough guns to point at enough heads to force them into compliance.  

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11 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

There is an excellent post in the Heather thread today about the history of this.  It explains how right wing Americans came to feel oppressed and under attack from the government.   As an outsider I would be interested in opinions on that article.  

Quote

 Right-wing terrorism in American has very deep roots, and those roots have grown since the 1990s as Republican rhetorical attacks on the federal government have fed them. The January 6 assault on the Capitol is not an aberration. It has been coming for a very long time.

 That was the last sum-up paragraph. Yes, very much so. It's why the FBI believes RW terrorism is a great threat and they aren't just whistling Dixie.  

As it is based on what I believe to be a falsehood I don't think bludgeoning it out of existence necessary, and I don't think it would work if we tried. I believe the attempt would be tragically counterproductive. The article's foray into socialism? The label the RW intellectuals place on things like Medicare?

     Keep-Your-Government-Hands-Off-My-Medica

You can't fix stupid and it can't be utterly eliminated. Let's not over-react. Reality has a way of catching up to those folks. 

 Eisenhower:  

 “Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.”

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

All it takes is a few.

No, again this is where you are totally wrong.  It takes a LOT more than a few.  One only needs to look at Turkey's recent failed coup attempt to see that it takes a LOT more than a few.  In Turkey's case, they had something like 1/4 of the military and high ranking generals and entire Air Force units trying to overthrow erdo, and they still failed.  

IMHO, any successful coup attempt in the US would need likely 75% or more of the military and NG to have any hopes of taking over in an obviously unconstitutional scenario - and there is no way you're going to get more than a smattering of folks who would even contemplate it.  

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3 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Nah.  Your war gaming above assumes that anyone in the leadership levels of the military would go along with this.  At best, he'd have a few scattered lower ranking officers and more than a few enlisted.  But none of them would have the authority to blatantly violate their oaths and go against the Connie.  Ret Gen Flynn is an anomaly, IMHO.  I work with a LOT of retired military officers and most of them are pro-trump, many very pro-trump.  And even they are saying shitstain crossed a line.  So no, I don't see more than a scattering of uniformed military even thinking of sticking with him in an obvious coup attempt.  

And as you said, the bulk of the civil service guys have been mostly appalled at his handling of the gov't over the last 4 years.  I don't see them following orders from a dicktator.  And without them, the gov't ceases to function.  There won't be enough guns to point at enough heads to force them into compliance.  

Totally agree with the last sentence; that doesn't mean that a lot of people aren't stupid enough to try

Most of the ex-miltary guys I know, who talk about the subject, were not in favor of Trump no matter how much they think Democrats could fuck up a peanut butter sandwich. Trump is very much the opposite of everything the military teaches about leadership.

Sticking with him in a coup attempt? Assume that some of them are actually capable and not raving morons. Look at the Army psy-ops officer who went to the insurrection. Sowing delay and discord. Assure everyone that is not solidly in the yes-let's-fight-for-Trump camp that no we are NOT going to fight. At the same time, secretly giving orders to reliably fight-for-Trump units to arrest some people and destroy certain assets, the "war" could be half won before the anti-Trumpers really got going.

Fortunately that is apparently not going to happen.

 

5 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

No, again this is where you are totally wrong.  It takes a LOT more than a few.  One only needs to look at Turkey's recent failed coup attempt to see that it takes a LOT more than a few.  In Turkey's case, they had something like 1/4 of the military and high ranking generals and entire Air Force units trying to overthrow erdo, and they still failed.  

IMHO, any successful coup attempt in the US would need likely 75% or more of the military and NG to have any hopes of taking over in an obviously unconstitutional scenario - and there is no way you're going to get more than a smattering of folks who would even contemplate it.  

Actually, I would put it the exact other way.... Turkey is proof that a coup attempt can succeed. Erdogan's dictatorship is a successful coup. And he did not have anything like 75% of the military when he crossed the line of declaring a religious party.

4 years would be a very short time to subvert the US government and military. But a right-wing Republican would not be starting from zero, look at how many people are NOT outraged at the idea of overturning an election. Assembling pockets of loyalists in the right(wrong) places is already happening unofficially. All it would take to succeed is an intelligent and persuasive and patient man pulling the strings.

- DSK

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8 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Actually, I would put it the exact other way.... Turkey is proof that a coup attempt can succeed. Erdogan's dictatorship is a successful coup. And he did not have anything like 75% of the military when he crossed the line of declaring a religious party.

4 years would be a very short time to subvert the US government and military. But a right-wing Republican would not be starting from zero, look at how many people are NOT outraged at the idea of overturning an election. Assembling pockets of loyalists in the right(wrong) places is already happening unofficially. All it would take to succeed is an intelligent and persuasive and patient man pulling the strings.

- DSK

This in bold

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3 minutes ago, mad said:
12 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Actually, I would put it the exact other way.... Turkey is proof that a coup attempt can succeed. Erdogan's dictatorship is a successful coup. ...   ...   ... All it would take to succeed is an intelligent and persuasive and patient man pulling the strings.

 

This in bold

I'm often surprised at how many people forget (or never knew) that Turkey was an advanced, secular, strongly democratic Parliamentary republic. The popular sentiment in Trukey was very much to be more modernized, more Westernized, to turn to Europe.

I have a bunch of American friends of Turkish descent, including a younger couple who immigrated to the US in the 1980s. 15 years ago I was surprised at how they hated and distrusted Erodgan, but they were right. BTW they also hate Trump and the MAGAts, bitterly

- DSK

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9 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I'm often surprised at how many people forget (or never knew) that Turkey was an advanced, secular, strongly democratic Parliamentary republic. The popular sentiment in Trukey was very much to be more modernized, more Westernized, to turn to Europe.

I have a bunch of American friends of Turkish descent, including a younger couple who immigrated to the US in the 1980s. 15 years ago I was surprised at how they hated and distrusted Erodgan, but they were right. BTW they also hate Trump and the MAGAts, bitterly

- DSK

As I see and hear the helicopters fly over the gold dome...

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14 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Biden should pardon

Sorry about my spelling above  . .  

I blame the Cabernet.  

(Hey, if the Drumph never accepts responsibility, 

why should any of the rest of us?)   

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36 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

No, again this is where you are totally wrong.  It takes a LOT more than a few.  One only needs to look at Turkey's recent failed coup attempt to see that it takes a LOT more than a few.  In Turkey's case, they had something like 1/4 of the military and high ranking generals and entire Air Force units trying to overthrow erdo, and they still failed.  

IMHO, any successful coup attempt in the US would need likely 75% or more of the military and NG to have any hopes of taking over in an obviously unconstitutional scenario - and there is no way you're going to get more than a smattering of folks who would even contemplate it.  

Agree, but have to mention Erdo had been purging the Kemalists from the officer corps for some time. That coup was the last gasp of the remnant, not that that has beans to do with your central point, or anything. 

 The memos and statements from inactive officers and past DOD heads anticipating Trump might try to use the military to stage a coup point towards the flag-rank officers following the North Korean-ish model of succession: Every time a new Dear Leader has had to take charge the Nork Army goes on lock-down. Everybody is disarmed and restricted to barracks so no general gets any ideas. I think our military would have followed the statement they would NOT allow themselves to be used by anybody. This battle, if it were to come, would have to be fought with police and security forces only. The military will try their damnedest to sit it out.   

 

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24 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I'm often surprised at how many people forget (or never knew) that Turkey was an advanced, secular, strongly democratic Parliamentary republic. The popular sentiment in Trukey was very much to be more modernized, more Westernized, to turn to Europe.

I have a bunch of American friends of Turkish descent, including a younger couple who immigrated to the US in the 1980s. 15 years ago I was surprised at how they hated and distrusted Erodgan, but they were right. BTW they also hate Trump and the MAGAts, bitterly

- DSK

Agree. Erdogan has basically done a bloodless coup and is fucking up a secular State, turning it back into somewhere you don't want to be.

Funny thing though, for once even the Left would have a hard time blaming the West in general and the USA in particular for this. I'm sure they'd try though (cue usual suspects....)

FKT

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21 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Is there a provision in law that they can be stripped of citizenship?

- DSK

If they don't have a second citizenship to fall back on... it's against international law to make someone stateless.

20 hours ago, BrickTopHarry said:

I don't know why people on this forum get so preoccupied with pardoning these insurrectionists.  Is it because it's a forum with predominantly white, older people with money who identify with some of these folks even if they're not Trumpists?  The damage done by showing these people there are few or no consequences for this kind of seditious activity and thus a lack of deterrent far outweighs any benefit.  You think you're going to win over Trump fanatics by not making them pay for what they've done?  Do you think that realtor who flew in on the private plane is going to give up supporting her fascist daddy if you treat her with kid gloves?  What naievete.

It's a recurring theme from centrist democrats, and easily imaginable as Something Joe Would Do.

Even without anyone saying it  -  we all know it's likely  -  so anyone with a clue about fascist history is bringing it up to warn against it.

Thread proves it's a bit of a minefield.  Go too easy, you're encouraging a repeat, and bolstering the accusation that we have a 2-track justice system, that treats the right easier than the left.  Go too hard, you lend credibility to their victim narrative, and... not sure making them spend time alongside criminals, in one of the most racialized social environments in society, is going to help. 

(not, IMHO, that it ever does)

 

 

16 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Did any of the organizing tactical geniuses try to game out the most likely end result of this planned assault?

Even if they "succeeded" and hung Mike Pence and took Pelosi hostage and got the vote stopped, even then, how was it not going to end with the army surrounding the Captiol Building with troops and tanks and gas and utter defeat. 

Did they really think that the Mad Mango had enough respect from and command of the armed forces not have the army just  dump all their asses on the field at Stadium Formerly Known As Redskins and start taking names and handing out space blankets?  

 

Remember the letter that the 10 former Secretaries of Defense sent out just a week or so ago.  It seems that they really saw something like this as a possibility.  And I don't think it is a coincidence that the daughter of the  instigator of that letter, Dick Cheney, has been one of the loudest voices for impeachment.

A lot of them honestly thought that Trump would declare martial law / invoke the insurrection act / do something,.  Take over, conduct a bunch of arrests and executions, and then run a new, "honest" election (which he would, of course, win in a landslide).  "Re-establish the Republic".  And that they'd go down, in the history books, as heroes.

Remember: we're talking about a group that thinks NY went red, but a conspiracy of Democrats, Chinese Spies, and Establishment Republicans cheated to makeit look blue.

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38 minutes ago, frenchie said:

 

A lot of them honestly thought that Trump would declare martial law / invoke the insurrection act / do something,.  Take over, conduct a bunch of arrests and executions, and then run a new, "honest" election (which he would, of course, win in a landslide).  "Re-establish the Republic".  And that they'd go down, in the history books, as heroes.

Remember: we're talking about a group that thinks NY went red, but a conspiracy of Democrats, Chinese Spies, and Establishment Republicans cheated to makeit look blue.

You know, morons. 
 

 

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According to the AP, the majority of the pro-Trump protesters at the Ohio State House headed home around the same time the Cleveland Browns game is supposed to start.

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Another one arrested

Authorities say Bryan Betancur, arrested today in connection to the U.S. Capitol insurrection, told them about his membership in "several white supremacy organizations." 

He's seen in court docs holding a Confederate flag, wearing a Proud Boys T-shirt and flashing an "ok" sign. 

"BETANCUR has voiced homicidal ideations, made comments about conducting a school shooting, and has researched mass shootings. BETANCUR voiced support for James Fields, the individual convicted for killing an individual with his car during protests in Charlottesville, Virginia." 

Er9G6sHXEAAga2k.jpg
 

 

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8 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Another one arrested

Authorities say Bryan Betancur, arrested today in connection to the U.S. Capitol insurrection, told them about his membership in "several white supremacy organizations." 

He's seen in court docs holding a Confederate flag, wearing a Proud Boys T-shirt and flashing an "ok" sign. 

"BETANCUR has voiced homicidal ideations, made comments about conducting a school shooting, and has researched mass shootings. BETANCUR voiced support for James Fields, the individual convicted for killing an individual with his car during protests in Charlottesville, Virginia." 

Er9G6sHXEAAga2k.jpg
 

 

Antifa through and through......purple font

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19 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Another one arrested

Authorities say Bryan Betancur, arrested today in connection to the U.S. Capitol insurrection, told them about his membership in "several white supremacy organizations." 

He's seen in court docs holding a Confederate flag, wearing a Proud Boys T-shirt and flashing an "ok" sign. 

"BETANCUR has voiced homicidal ideations, made comments about conducting a school shooting, and has researched mass shootings. BETANCUR voiced support for James Fields, the individual convicted for killing an individual with his car during protests in Charlottesville, Virginia." 

Er9G6sHXEAAga2k.jpg
 

 

That, of course, is not an OK sign.  it's a one-handed version of Stephen Miller's favorite hand gesture.

stephen-miller-white-power-resized.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

That, of course, is not an OK sign.  it's a one-handed version of Stephen Miller's favorite hand gesture.

stephen-miller-white-power-resized.jpg

I will never understand how a Jew thinks he fits in with these people, they would toss him in an oven for almost no reason at all.

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2 hours ago, mad said:
2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Actually, I would put it the exact other way.... Turkey is proof that a coup attempt can succeed. Erdogan's dictatorship is a successful coup. And he did not have anything like 75% of the military when he crossed the line of declaring a religious party.

4 years would be a very short time to subvert the US government and military. But a right-wing Republican would not be starting from zero, look at how many people are NOT outraged at the idea of overturning an election. Assembling pockets of loyalists in the right(wrong) places is already happening unofficially. All it would take to succeed is an intelligent and persuasive and patient man pulling the strings.

- DSK

This in bold

No it's not correct.  Like it or not, Erdogan came to power as a legitimately, democratically elected PM of Turkey in a landslide election.  And again, whether you like it or not, the majority of people in turkey rejected secularism in favor of an islamist based gov't.  I don't like it either as I've spent many years in Turkey and have some good friends there who were very proud of their secularism and are appalled at what Turkey has become.  So Erdo did NOT come to power through a coup, he came to power based on the will of the majority of the people.  Unfortunately, that majority rejects all or most of what Attaturk worked for to set up a secular democracy.  

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I'm often surprised at how many people forget (or never knew) that Turkey was an advanced, secular, strongly democratic Parliamentary republic. The popular sentiment in Trukey was very much to be more modernized, more Westernized, to turn to Europe.

I have a bunch of American friends of Turkish descent, including a younger couple who immigrated to the US in the 1980s. 15 years ago I was surprised at how they hated and distrusted Erodgan, but they were right. BTW they also hate Trump and the MAGAts, bitterly

- DSK

And it's surprising how people will ignore actual facts to make a political point.  The highlighted word up there in red is past tense for a reason.  

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2 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

No it's not correct.  Like it or not, Erdogan came to power as a legitimately, democratically elected PM of Turkey in a landslide election.  And again, whether you like it or not, the majority of people in turkey rejected secularism in favor of an islamist based gov't.  I don't like it either as I've spent many years in Turkey and have some good friends there who were very proud of their secularism and are appalled at what Turkey has become.  So Erdo did NOT come to power through a coup, he came to power based on the will of the majority of the people.  Unfortunately, that majority rejects all or most of what Attaturk worked for to set up a secular democracy.  

I'll agree that he didn't come to power by coup, but he's certainly taken over from within and with help from a faithful cabal and a lot of sycophants. Much like Trumps 4 years.  The similarities are there. they've been partially brainwashed as a nation.

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2 hours ago, Mark K said:

Agree, but have to mention Erdo had been purging the Kemalists from the officer corps for some time. That coup was the last gasp of the remnant, not that that has beans to do with your central point, or anything. 

 The memos and statements from inactive officers and past DOD heads anticipating Trump might try to use the military to stage a coup point towards the flag-rank officers following the North Korean-ish model of succession: Every time a new Dear Leader has had to take charge the Nork Army goes on lock-down. Everybody is disarmed and restricted to barracks so no general gets any ideas. I think our military would have followed the statement they would NOT allow themselves to be used by anybody. This battle, if it were to come, would have to be fought with police and security forces only. The military will try their damnedest to sit it out.   

 

Yep.  Totally agree that erdo purged the military of the secularists.  But that just proves my point even further that for the military to stage a successful coup or even assist a politician to execute a coup - you need a pretty hefty majority of the forces to go along with you.  Without it, you end up like Turkey.  Crushed within a few days even with some fairly serious firepower on your side.

And I agree with your 2nd paragraph as well.  I was simply countering the notion from the peanut gallery that trump would have some loyal soldiers in the military to do his dirty work.  There probably are, but I don't see enough critical mass to even put something together on a small scale.  Even if, for the sake of argument, you had the corps commander of Ft Bragg or a Division commander at Lejuene decide he was going to roll the tanks to DC to keep trump in power, the soldiers under his command would all have to be lockstep with that notion as well for them to even leave the front gate much less get the keys to the WSA's to arm up.  I just don't see it happening.  Even generals don't have as much individual power as most here think they do.

image.thumb.png.f3f8f58b75ced4495539cdc0f00553b7.png

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12 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

No it's not correct.  Like it or not, Erdogan came to power as a legitimately, democratically elected PM of Turkey in a landslide election.  And again, whether you like it or not, the majority of people in turkey rejected secularism in favor of an islamist based gov't.  I don't like it either as I've spent many years in Turkey and have some good friends there who were very proud of their secularism and are appalled at what Turkey has become.  So Erdo did NOT come to power through a coup, he came to power based on the will of the majority of the people.  Unfortunately, that majority rejects all or most of what Attaturk worked for to set up a secular democracy.  

This is a good analysis, but I think your take about the pride of secularism is still there, and I'll wager most Turks still have more respect for the legacy of Kemal Attaturk than anything Erdogan has ever done.

Turkey is an educated kind of place, but it's also a somewhat "American" place in that Turks like their luxuries, they want the good life. As long as they stood on the outskirts of the EU, a Russian lapdog, they wouldn't have that. Erdogan knows how to play the game with the EU, he has probably more progress than anyone else there could have with integration. And the terrorism in Turkey was the other problem, the Kurds had developed a certain reputation that it was seen that Islamism could combat.

Erdogan had a bit in common with Trump's first election ... it wasn't the man himself that drew the votes, it was that the alternative was deeply unpopular and he was the only alternative.

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13 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

And it's surprising how people will ignore actual facts to make a political point.  The highlighted word up there in red is past tense for a reason.  

No longer really surprising is it?  

Screen Shot 2021-01-17 at 2.55.13 PM.png

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2 hours ago, frenchie said:

Remember: we're talking about a group that thinks NY went red, but a conspiracy of Democrats, Chinese Spies, and Establishment Republicans cheated to makeit look blue.

Sometimes gasoline spills all over the place. What is your opinion about Bernie Sander's results in the NY State primaries?

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46 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

I will never understand how a Jew thinks he fits in with these people, they would toss him in an oven for almost no reason at all.

These are really psychologically deformed people.  There were a non zero # of Jews who served in Hitlers SS.

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7 minutes ago, mad said:

I'll agree that he didn't come to power by coup, but he's certainly taken over from within and with help from a faithful cabal and a lot of sycophants. Much like Trumps 4 years.  The similarities are there. they've been partially brainwashed as a nation.

Yep, that's my whole point is that unlike Steam Liar's playing loose with history - I'm just trying to discuss from a factual standpoint.  As to the brainwashing in Turkey, I'm not so sure about that.  Maybe of a different kind.  Erdo was elected specifically to move the nation away from the pure secularism that Kemal setup.  There was a lot of growing anger against the tight restrictions on open expression of religion.  So he was the man that did what the people wanted.  I do concur that he then solidified power from within and became a dicktator in all but title.  And the majority of the people seem fine with it.

I do agree there are many similarities between erdo and the donald.  It's why they got along so well.  The difference is that erdo is a smart politician.  And those two words (smart and politician) would never be used to describe trump.  What I fear most is someone who is actually smart enough to keep his/her mouth shut and have the filter on for what they are really thinking and planning.  If a populist emerged that was smart, savvy, politically adept and was actually likeable but with evil intent - we might be in for a real problem.  I said all along years ago that trump was not the real threat.  He's a buffoon, too dumb, and too much of an egotistical narcissist to actually get the things done that would really be a threat to our democracy.  Trump positively makes Boris look like a genius.  Just saying.

 

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6 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Yep, that's my whole point is that unlike Steam Liar's playing loose with history - I'm just trying to discuss from a factual standpoint.  As to the brainwashing in Turkey, I'm not so sure about that.  Maybe of a different kind.  Erdo was elected specifically to move the nation away from the pure secularism that Kemal setup.  There was a lot of growing anger against the tight restrictions on open expression of religion.  So he was the man that did what the people wanted.  I do concur that he then solidified power from within and became a dicktator in all but title.  And the majority of the people seem fine with it.

I do agree there are many similarities between erdo and the donald.  It's why they got along so well.  The difference is that erdo is a smart politician.  And those two words (smart and politician) would never be used to describe trump.  What I fear most is someone who is actually smart enough to keep his/her mouth shut and have the filter on for what they are really thinking and planning.  If a populist emerged that was smart, savvy, politically adept and was actually likeable but with evil intent - we might be in for a real problem.  I said all along years ago that trump was not the real threat.  He's a buffoon, too dumb, and too much of an egotistical narcissist to actually get the things done that would really be a threat to our democracy.  Trump positively makes Boris look like a genius.  Just saying.

 

That person was Hawley.  But he (helped by Trump) fucked himself.

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4 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Yep, that's my whole point is that unlike Steam Liar's playing loose with history - I'm just trying to discuss from a factual standpoint.  As to the brainwashing in Turkey, I'm not so sure about that.  Maybe of a different kind.  Erdo was elected specifically to move the nation away from the pure secularism that Kemal setup.  There was a lot of growing anger against the tight restrictions on open expression of religion.  So he was the man that did what the people wanted.  I do concur that he then solidified power from within and became a dicktator in all but title.  And the majority of the people seem fine with it.

I do agree there are many similarities between erdo and the donald.  It's why they got along so well.  The difference is that erdo is a smart politician.  And those two words (smart and politician) would never be used to describe trump.  What I fear most is someone who is actually smart enough to keep his/her mouth shut and have the filter on for what they are really thinking and planning.  If a populist emerged that was smart, savvy, politically adept and was actually likeable but with evil intent - we might be in for a real problem.  I said all along years ago that trump was not the real threat.  He's a buffoon, too dumb, and too much of an egotistical narcissist to actually get the things done that would really be a threat to our democracy.  Trump positively makes Boris look like a genius.  Just saying.

 

Boris pushing a very similar game plan in ways, the same disinformation, blatant lies, corruption.  Hopefully part of the US clean-up will be a good look at Russia, that'll lead back to the UK. The knives are out for Johnson already from within and I'd be very surprised if he's still by the summer, probably Easter.  No idea where this one ends.

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4 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Miller is deranged no doubt about that at all.

Where's he lurking at the moment?

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4 hours ago, Lark said:

What useful skills do they offer?   

Picking up trash at the side of the road.

Most of those women will feel right at home.

Have the males make little rocks from big rocks.

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56 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

No it's not correct.  Like it or not, Erdogan came to power as a legitimately, democratically elected PM of Turkey in a landslide election.  And again, whether you like it or not, the majority of people in turkey rejected secularism in favor of an islamist based gov't.  I don't like it either as I've spent many years in Turkey and have some good friends there who were very proud of their secularism and are appalled at what Turkey has become.  So Erdo did NOT come to power through a coup, he came to power based on the will of the majority of the people.  Unfortunately, that majority rejects all or most of what Attaturk worked for to set up a secular democracy.  

The bolded part is true, the rest is highly open to question.

Erdogan has taken many actions, especially within the past ten years, that are completely and totally against the Turkish Constitution. He slowly and carefully replaced secularist judges with religious judges, generals that were loyal to the Constitution with Islamist or personally loyal generals. He's also accompanied this with state-controlled media blasting out pro-Erdogan and Islamist propaganda. Is he supported by the majority? By now, yes. Helped a lot by Middle Eastern instability and what they see as European unfriendliness.

Because the Turkish Constitution was written specifically to prevent much of this from happening, and it has not been changed in accordance with the formal/legal procedure for doing so, Erdogan's seizure of power could be accurately described IMHO as a coup... a seizing of power.... it's just a slow-motion one.

- DSK

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41 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Yep, that's my whole point is that unlike Steam Liar's playing loose with history - I'm just trying to discuss from a factual standpoint....

Yeah, whatever.

You have an extremely simplistic view... "factual" means ignoring or not bothering to learn about more than the cowboy-movie point of view?

- DSK

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Everything you need to know about the religious dictator Erdogan, you saw displayed by his thug security while on American soil breaking your laws.

 

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16 minutes ago, Keith said:

Everything you need to know about the religious dictator Erdogan, you saw displayed by his thug security while on American soil breaking your laws.

 

And Trump did nothing.

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How come they haven't charged any of the BLM or Antifa instigators that were behind the riot/insurrection? Seems very suspect to me that only MAGA/white supremicists (sp) have been charged. 

Dog will smell a conspiracy.

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