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I thought it was about time that Class40 had it's own thread. 

All the major offshore races, TJV, Route du Rhum, two around the world races, and something we can perhaps always dream of whilst there being some possibility of actually getting there... 

15 new builds being launched in 2021 and a Class that is going nuts. 

To start us off two 40s (Palanad and Redman) are currently racing in the RORC Transat. 

Tracking below: 

http://rorctransatlantic.rorc.org/tracking/2021-fleet-tracking.html

Luke Berry is the pro onboard Palanad (Mach40.4) and Redman (Mach40.4) is skippered by Antoine Carpentier. Antoine is joined by Spanish sailor Pablo Santurde (he's won everything). Both are three up. 

 
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On 1/14/2021 at 5:21 PM, huey 2 said:

"Any info on Class40s with scow bow?"

By pironiero, November 2, 2020 in Ocean Racing Anarchy

yeah yeah, im here

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Apart from the conservatory at the cockpit I like it, possibly needs more scow bell though.

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  • 1 month later...

Looks very good, from a pure performance perspective.

It is unfortunate that artists of shape, like Pininfarina, were not involved. Fast does not require ugly. My Pininfarina designed car is no less functional or fast, but sure is a thing of beauty, and will continue to be a thing of beauty forever.

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On 1/22/2021 at 9:30 PM, JonRowe said:

Apart from the conservatory at the cockpit I like it, possibly needs more scow bell though.

hard to tell what it would really look like in the cockpit (though there are some other drawings online), but during the last two days of the Normandy Channel Race last fall we were really wishing for that extra protection.  The drawings do suggest that they might still allow pretty good visibility.  The Mach 4s made pretty good progress in this direction already.  The Mach 3 cockpit is like a waterfall in some conditions.

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6 hours ago, 38°59'N said:

hard to tell what it would really look like in the cockpit (though there are some other drawings online), but during the last two days of the Normandy Channel Race last fall we were really wishing for that extra protection.  The drawings do suggest that they might still allow pretty good visibility.  The Mach 4s made pretty good progress in this direction already.  The Mach 3 cockpit is like a waterfall in some conditions.

I am totally on board with protective cockpits, I just wish this one wasn't so angular looking from a pretty-ness factor :D

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I wonder if it would be feasible to get an older class 40 and build a new bow section for it, a lot cheaper than a new boat.

i also wonder if a bigger more protected cockpit would not be better over a longer race.

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Could be a giant false/crash bow made of foam and a skin.  Kinda like a giant version of when they plumbed the bow of the slanted ULDB70s back in the day.  Likely wouldn't last it's first outing though...

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I'm thinking a class 40 may be in my future, I've been around them a bit but do not have a ton of experience.  Two of the boats I am considering are the Akilaria RC3 and the Pogo S3.  Any thoughts on those two boats and which one may be better for racing/sailing along the East Coast.

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7 minutes ago, Flying Solo said:

I'm thinking a class 40 may be in my future, I've been around them a bit but do not have a ton of experience.  Two of the boats I am considering are the Akilaria RC3 and the Pogo S3.  Any thoughts on those two boats and which one may be better for racing/sailing along the East Coast.

Talk to Merfyn of Owen Clarke design, he knows them backwards and forwards and is the best source for a used boat.

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14 hours ago, Flying Solo said:

I'm thinking a class 40 may be in my future, I've been around them a bit but do not have a ton of experience.  Two of the boats I am considering are the Akilaria RC3 and the Pogo S3.  Any thoughts on those two boats and which one may be better for racing/sailing along the East Coast.

In looking at boats, it is worth keeping in mind the recent rule changes regarding the cockpit door (in effect now), new minimum weight (in transition phase now), and increased buoyancy of 3m^2 to 5m^2 (in full force at year end 2021 though tied in with the min weight transition).  In the range of RC3, Pogo S3, I might also consider a Mach2 (if one were available) or 157 (if in the same range) though individual boat details could sway a decision one way or another.  How to modify a door and where to put the additional buoyancy might not be a simple task.

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A great overview of where Class40 currently stands - excuse the google translation and full credit to Tip and Shaft who like normal go above and beyond with their content! 

https://www.tipandshaft.com - for those that aren't subscribed! 

...

BETWEEN NEW AND USED BOATS, THE CLASS40 IN FULL BOOM

With five boats already built since the summer of 2019, around fifteen to come by the Route du Rhum and a second-hand market that is doing well, the Class40 continues to attract skippers and partners. Tip & Shaft takes stock of current and upcoming projects.
 
As with each edition of the Route du Rhum, the Class40 is currently experiencing strong activity, with a booming construction market. In the wake of Yoann Richomme’s victory in the 2018 edition on a Lombard plan whose shape resembled that of the scows, the “round nose” Class40s arrived in force. Crédit Mutuel, Ian Lipinski's first Max 40 (David Raison plan), won the 2019 Transat Jacques Vabre, while Banque du Léman, the Manuard plan (Mach 40.4) of the Swiss duo Valentin Gautier / Simon Koster, won. on the Normandy Channel Race last September.
 
This made Aurélien Ducroz, who is expecting his new Crosscall for the end of April, say: "There has been a real architectural break with the scows, if you want to be ambitious and play in front, you don't have much choice." Nicolas Groleau, boss of the JPS yard, from which came the five scows built to date (Crédit Mutuel, Banque du Léman, the Mach 4 E. Leclerc Ville la Grand by Olivier Magré and Redman by Antoine Carpentier as well as the Max40 Project Rescue Ocean by Axel Tréhin), adds: "We find the scow effect already seen in Mini, this design gives such an advantage that those who have sporting ambitions sell their boat to build one."

In all, around twenty new boats will thus leave the site between the two editions of the Route du Rhum, compared to 15 during the previous cycle and 39 between 2010 and 2014. Quite a dynamic in the current context!
 
New boats for Grassi, Le Roch and Perraut
 
Two Lift 2s (Lombard plan) are thus expected in the spring: the first built in Australia for Rupert Henry, the second for Aurélien Ducroz (at Grand Largue Composites and V1D2 in Caen). Advertised price: between 556,000 euros and 710,000 euros HT ready to sail. A third specimen for the Rum, built in recyclable materials, will be made official next week, built by Lalou Multi for Keni Piperol.
 
At JPS, the production schedule is well loaded with three Max 40 and two Mach 4 signed (between 600,000 and 650,000 HT each according to Nicolas Groleau). As for the Reason plans, Volvo of Jonas Gerckens (who will compete in the Transat Jacques Vabre with Benoît Hantzberg) will be launched at the end of April; it will be followed at the end of July by that of Amélie Grassi. The former miner, who is new to the Class40, says: "I tried the Max and the Mach, I found the former to pull a little less, it is easier to use, I felt more comfortable."
 
Construction of a third Reason plan will begin in August for Matthieu Perraut, another newcomer from the Mini class. "The Class40, in addition to being dynamic and user-friendly, is the ideal medium to continue to progress offshore, which is my goal," says the professional architect. Regarding the Manuard plans, a boat is under construction for Emmanuel Le Roch, formalized soon, a second will be launched immediately for a skipper for the Route du Rhum.
 
The class opens to new architects
 
Another well-occupied site at the moment: Structures, from which Serenis Consulting will emerge at the end of April, the very first Pogo S4 (Verdier plan) for Jean Galfione, who will run the Transat Jacques Vabre with Eric Péron. It will be followed this summer by two other copies for François-René Carluer and Emmanuel Hamez, whose priority objective is to run the Route du Rhum. Both are looking to rent their new Class40 for the Jacques Vabre, the second announcing a price of 90,000 euros excluding tax, which it can halve if the renter takes it on board.
 
For the shipyard based in Combrit, the beginnings of this new series, marketed between 410,000 and 510,000 euros HT (with electronics and pilot, but without the sails which cost between 70,000 and 80,000), are considered very encouraging, as the Confides Erwan Tymen: "Starting a series with three boats already sold is a lot more comfortable for us on the development of parts and on the amortization. And behind that, we are in advanced discussions for two additional boats."
 
Hitherto concentrated in the hands of the aforementioned shipyards and architects, the Class40 is also open to other designers: Etienne Bertrand and Guillaume Dupont have designed a boat built at Cape Racing Yachts. Jörg Riechers, who works with the South African shipyard, explains: "Two copies have been sold, the first for an enlightened amateur with whom I will run the Transat Jacques Vabre, the second for a professional skipper." Price announced by the German sailor: 450,000 euros excluding VAT, without sails nor electronic.
 
Finally, another little news is eagerly awaited this year: the Clak 40, designed by VPLP and built by Multiplast, two of which have been ordered by the Italian Andrea Fornaro - who will make the season in doubles with the Russian Igor Goikhberg - and by Nicolas d'Estais, also from the Mini class. "The Class40 is really the logical continuation of the Mini, the boats are fun and the class guarantees a good return on investment for sponsors", explains the latter.

This is also the opinion of Corentin Douguet who should soon unveil his project, also on a new Class40: "I will be on the circuit in 2022. The class is nice, with really fast boats, on which you spend more than time to sail than to do R&D. And that's still relatively cheap: a new Class40 costs ten times less than an Imoca. " Finally, no doubt for a delivery in 2023, Catherine Pourre is also counting, once she has sold her current Mach 3, to start the construction of a boat, she told us.
 
25 used boats sold in 2020
 
The sailor, used to the class, should not have too much trouble finding a buyer for her Class40, the second-hand market remaining active: 25 boats have changed hands in 2020. All built before 2019, they are likely to suffer. the arrival of the scows, as Kito de Pavant fears: "This is not necessarily good news in economic terms and because the class has been fairly homogeneous until now. There is a big gap."
 
In an attempt to limit this gap, some have undertaken major modifications to the bow of their boat. This is the case of Nils Boyer on Le Choix Funéraire: "We were the first to cut the bow in February 2020 to spatulate it. The result is that the boat is much faster when reaching and bends less when reaching. bearing, it's a real evolution in terms of speed. "

Several skippers followed suit, such as Luke Berry and Sébastien Audigane. The latter, along with his new partners, Entrepreneurs pour la Planète, has bought the former Aïna from Aymeric Chappellier, which he has just put back in Marseille. "We removed the brion, which tended to brake the boat slightly, to get closer to recent boats," explains the one who will run the Jacques Vabre with François Jambou.
 
Kito de Pavant also modified the bow of his Tizh 40 Made in Midi, but in a different sense: "At the beginning, we left to do like everyone else, but we had to touch the roof, it was doing a lot of work and We weren't sure it would work. By talking to Guillaume [Verdier, the architect], we came to an agreement on a solution: rather than adding volume, we remove it. " At BE Racing, Louis Burton, for his part, plans to transform the hull of the Tizh 40 from the Saint-Malo team into a scow with a view to Rum 2022, Arthur Hubert told us.
 
New or used boats, most of them will line up in the championship races in 2021, more than 30 boats are expected in the Transat Jacques Vabre. Before aiming, the following year, for the Route du Rhum, on which the Class40 asked OC Sport Pen Duick, the organizer, to have 70 places (against 53 in 2018)!

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The biggest difference I noticed between a Class 40 concept and near everything else I've sailed on, is the smiles.

I have raced on faster boats, but none that envoke the same feelings of confidence, exhilaration, happiness and simple fun.

I don't know how else to put it, but for me they just feel like a nice meld of everything I love about sailing. Crack sheets slightly and they are even a joy to sail to windward. 

I hope we continue to see more of the concept, I'm a fan.  

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I recall the Verdier Seahorse article from a year or so ago regarding a bow chop being a cost effective option.

Has anyone seen any info regarding what series models would be good to add a scow bow to vs those that don't have the right lines?

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Check out Axel Tréhin Skipper - he's the proud owner of a new Class40 #162 and has this week been sailing with: 

Kevin Escoffier 

Thomas Coville 

Vincent Riou 

AND Nicolas Trousell 

From what I gather they were all blown away by the boat (Raison design I think)! Pretty cool ay! 

The below is taken from his Facebook page (google translate) 

"Can you imagine Neymar, Messi and Mbappé coming to the training of a national player just for the sake of the game and share some professional secrets?
Vincent Riou, Team Sodebo Voile - Thomas Coville, Kevin Escoffier - PRB ... in a few weeks, my # Class40 Project Rescue Ocean had the immense privilege of being helmed by excellent sailors, and I could not be more touched and happy that they wanted to join me to help develop the full speed potential of our new car ...
Sailing is a sport where experience and sensations play a huge role, which is why the values of sharing and transmission are so important. But I am always amazed to see how much they are still present, even after winning the Vendée Globe, being the fastest man around the world, or crisscrossing the globe countless times on the most beautiful and most technical boats. never built ... Quite frankly, I think we would gain a lot by applying this scheme to many other areas of society!
And for the little anecdote, I am very happy to have been able to contribute to this transmission by bringing on board a few very promising young people, including a certain Eliott Coville, who obviously inherited certain paternal talents ..."159764831_3747839438664694_1332583513059049887_o.thumb.jpg.64c1b2933579b05617e057184582b201.jpg159922491_3747839791997992_8571175754396928836_o.thumb.jpg.037c1c7d9358e936c5189693c13b9630.jpg159644896_3747839555331349_6965134362329128885_o.thumb.jpg.451ee6f6e791c5bf1724596c76b3a5c2.jpg

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On 3/12/2021 at 10:39 AM, furler49 said:

Check out Axel Tréhin Skipper - he's the proud owner of a new Class40 #162 and has this week been sailing with: 

Kevin Escoffier 

Thomas Coville 

Vincent Riou 

AND Nicolas Trousell 

From what I gather they were all blown away by the boat (Raison design I think)! Pretty cool ay! 

The below is taken from his Facebook page (google translate) 

"Can you imagine Neymar, Messi and Mbappé coming to the training of a national player just for the sake of the game and share some professional secrets?
Vincent Riou, Team Sodebo Voile - Thomas Coville, Kevin Escoffier - PRB ... in a few weeks, my # Class40 Project Rescue Ocean had the immense privilege of being helmed by excellent sailors, and I could not be more touched and happy that they wanted to join me to help develop the full speed potential of our new car ...
Sailing is a sport where experience and sensations play a huge role, which is why the values of sharing and transmission are so important. But I am always amazed to see how much they are still present, even after winning the Vendée Globe, being the fastest man around the world, or crisscrossing the globe countless times on the most beautiful and most technical boats. never built ... Quite frankly, I think we would gain a lot by applying this scheme to many other areas of society!
And for the little anecdote, I am very happy to have been able to contribute to this transmission by bringing on board a few very promising young people, including a certain Eliott Coville, who obviously inherited certain paternal talents ..."159764831_3747839438664694_1332583513059049887_o.thumb.jpg.64c1b2933579b05617e057184582b201.jpg159922491_3747839791997992_8571175754396928836_o.thumb.jpg.037c1c7d9358e936c5189693c13b9630.jpg159644896_3747839555331349_6965134362329128885_o.thumb.jpg.451ee6f6e791c5bf1724596c76b3a5c2.jpg

Van de Heede's old Cigare Rouge in the background.

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On 3/12/2021 at 10:39 AM, furler49 said:

Check out Axel Tréhin Skipper - he's the proud owner of a new Class40 #162 and has this week been sailing with: 

Kevin Escoffier 

Thomas Coville 

Vincent Riou 

AND Nicolas Trousell 

From what I gather they were all blown away by the boat (Raison design I think)! Pretty cool ay! 

The below is taken from his Facebook page (google translate) 

"Can you imagine Neymar, Messi and Mbappé coming to the training of a national player just for the sake of the game and share some professional secrets?
Vincent Riou, Team Sodebo Voile - Thomas Coville, Kevin Escoffier - PRB ... in a few weeks, my # Class40 Project Rescue Ocean had the immense privilege of being helmed by excellent sailors, and I could not be more touched and happy that they wanted to join me to help develop the full speed potential of our new car ...
Sailing is a sport where experience and sensations play a huge role, which is why the values of sharing and transmission are so important. But I am always amazed to see how much they are still present, even after winning the Vendée Globe, being the fastest man around the world, or crisscrossing the globe countless times on the most beautiful and most technical boats. never built ... Quite frankly, I think we would gain a lot by applying this scheme to many other areas of society!
And for the little anecdote, I am very happy to have been able to contribute to this transmission by bringing on board a few very promising young people, including a certain Eliott Coville, who obviously inherited certain paternal talents ..."159764831_3747839438664694_1332583513059049887_o.thumb.jpg.64c1b2933579b05617e057184582b201.jpg159922491_3747839791997992_8571175754396928836_o.thumb.jpg.037c1c7d9358e936c5189693c13b9630.jpg159644896_3747839555331349_6965134362329128885_o.thumb.jpg.451ee6f6e791c5bf1724596c76b3a5c2.jpg

What (fabric?) is inside the mainsail cradle? Easy to see in top pic and not visible in bottom pic with boom exposed.

Something to reduce chafe/ease drying? Maybe it is just mesh bag material  like phifertex?

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16 minutes ago, oysterhead said:

What (fabric?) is inside the mainsail cradle? Easy to see in top pic and not visible in bottom pic with boom exposed.

Something to reduce chafe/ease drying? Maybe it is just mesh bag material  like phifertex?

I just looks like a mesh with webbings for the higher load bits, drainage is important when reefed down!

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An initial entry list for the Transat Jacques Vabre is posted:

https://www.transatjacquesvabre.org/fr/skippers/class40

 

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Anyone know if Aurelien Ducroz is signing up for the TJV, and if so, on a Class 40?  I loved following his ski career, so I look forward to following his sailing adventures too in the future. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, WLIS Jibing said:

Anyone know if Aurelien Ducroz is signing up for the TJV, and if so, on a Class 40?  I loved following his ski career, so I look forward to following his sailing adventures too in the future. 

 

 

Yep. Aurélien will be there. His boat is being finalised at V1D2 in Caen I think..?! If I remember correctly they want to be on the water for the Channel Race. 
 

I’d love to meet him - seems like a seriously cool guy. I think he’s aiming for the 2024 VG. 

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Class 40 stepping stone....Louis Duc is upgrading from Class 40 to IMOCA the cheapest way....Doing the work himself.  pic above

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12 hours ago, huey 2 said:

Class 40 stepping stone....Louis Duc is upgrading from Class 40 to IMOCA the cheapest way....Doing the work himself.  pic above

scow imoca?

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I've been living inland for 15 years, racing small boats on lakes, while occasionally getting out to the US Northeast for some offshore races and/or cruising on other people's boats.  I have enough experience in keelboats, coastal and offshore cruising and racing, etc, for this my question to have a realistic basis, but not enough keelboat ownership experience (nor high-performance keelboat racing experience) to be able to answer this question myself.  FWIW, I'm reaching a point financially for it to be viable in the context I'm raising, but not in a high-calibre racing program context.

I've loved Class 40s since the first time I saw one.  Never been on one.  When people (usually my wife) ask "if you ever moved to a coastal location, would you want to buy a keelboat, and if so, what boat?" my answer is a Class 40.  With that said...  I wouldn't do it blindly.  I'd find a way to actually spend some time on the boats and find out whether or not I actually like them as much as I think I would.  I'm also not totally loaded, so I'd probably be looking to buy used.  I just like the idea of a fast boat that's designed for short-handed sailing.

Getting to my question...  What do people know about the Racer/Cruiser configurations on these?  Because...  My real answer to the hypothetical question has been "Class 40 Racer/Cruiser"...  Why?  Because I'd be wanting to buy it to actually both cruise and race it.  I love the idea of showing up at a cruising destination with the wife and kids on a Class 40.  And my wife can sail, and the kids like fast boats.  None of us wants a boat with wood, varnish, etc.  We don't want more stuff that can break or require maintenance than we need.  But...  We need a galley, reasonable bunks, and a head (with walls around it).  Not a stripped out racer.  I've seen Racer/Cruiser designs online, and I like the look.  My question is...  Would such a thing be as great as it seems in my head, or is a cruising cabin a blight on a boat built for racing, such that I should be envisioning a more traditional boat (like maybe a J or a Beneteau) if I want to cruise one something I can race shorthanded?

Also...  when Class 40's race, the scoring is actually handicapped, right?  Not straight OD scoring...  So a cruising C40 would theoretically get some time back at the finish, right?

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Hiya YM,

Coupla things spring to mind that I have noticed:

  • Water ballast. I had 400l in 2 water tanks in the cruisery version which sat under the cabin settees. Each one is prob 6' x 1.5' square so the volume is not small but it is hidden low and near to the centreline. Water ballast on a Class 40 can be 1500l and is higher and more outboard, so look for the tanks as it may get in the way of any planned reno. 
  • The cabin top is there it protect the crew, but takes up a lot of room. A more traditional cabintop opens up a nuts amount of space, (but gives less protection of course). 
  •  The frame design is all about structural integrity and usually pays lip service to convenience. I gained an appreciation for how unobtrusive my frames were when moving about the cabin in cruise mode.
  • The wide beam can sure rock a lot in a bad anchorage. Always made me think a hammock slung in the main cabin woulda been a much better sleep.  

Just some random thoughts for you. Me personally? I'd buy a cruiser or racer version again tomorrow no problem. 

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7 hours ago, Your Mom said:

Also...  when Class 40's race, the scoring is actually handicapped, right?  Not straight OD scoring...  So a cruising C40 would theoretically get some time back at the finish, right?

The Vintage class has a handicap equation, but the front of the fleet is all about first to finish. The class website has a few details on the vintage class

https://www.class40.com/en/vintage-definition/

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7 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Hiya YM,

Coupla things spring to mind that I have noticed:

  • Water ballast. I had 400l in 2 water tanks in the cruisery version which sat under the cabin settees. Each one is prob 6' x 1.5' square so the volume is not small but it is hidden low and near to the centreline. Water ballast on a Class 40 can be 1500l and is higher and more outboard, so look for the tanks as it may get in the way of any planned reno. 
  • The cabin top is there it protect the crew, but takes up a lot of room. A more traditional cabintop opens up a nuts amount of space, (but gives less protection of course). 
  •  The frame design is all about structural integrity and usually pays lip service to convenience. I gained an appreciation for how unobtrusive my frames were when moving about the cabin in cruise mode.
  • The wide beam can sure rock a lot in a bad anchorage. Always made me think a hammock slung in the main cabin woulda been a much better sleep.  

Just some random thoughts for you. Me personally? I'd buy a cruiser or racer version again tomorrow no problem. 

Maybe this first version with the limitation on the Scow bow width. Very different lines from my latest, but in my mind this 2013 Model would quite fit a double sailing purpose of cruising and racing. 

0383058001615497888_282ga1-mar11-21.jpg

0085750001615498646_282lpl-mar11-21.jpg

C40,2013E.jpg

0744737001615498285_282ga2-mar11-21.jpg

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Thanks, guys!  I'll keep it on my wishlist and look at it more seriously if I ever live somewhere where it would make sense.

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MY 2cents...couldnt help after replying to the "Want to upgrade from Catalina 275 to Pogo 30/36, but can't convince the wife." thread haha...

"My misso would vouch for our Pogo40...Its an 09 model, think early C40 with the shallower 2.2m draft, still has runners, and super basic interior.  Have enjoyed the Breton start of winter ~2 degrees C, to the hot Greek summer high 30's C...all with a daughter from 2-5yo over the seasons.  Strong, simple, fast, easy to handle ( can be a bit of a bitch in tight marinas and cross winds...) but Id take it any day over any of the usual mass productions boats Ive skippered working in the Med- think anything new from Benny Oceanis 46's to Lagoon 52's and everything in between.  We're pretty laid back when it comes to comfort and amenities...but everyone has their take on things!  The newer models are much more comfy inside, much better finished, and the swing keel version would be fucking awesome to get in close to shore next to the cats!"

 

All depends on how much racing vs how much camping you want to do on the water...the earlier Pogo's are a wicked mix of comfy vs fast...having said that they're never gonna be close to the newer C40's which some are doing IMOCA 24hr runs of only a decade or so ago...

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1 hour ago, Knut Grotzki said:

Cheers Knut,

Interesting how they approached reducing the wetted surface with the bow sections.

I like it, it's got some bulldog to it.   

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  • 2 weeks later...

As someone that doesn't know squat about these "new" type scow bows, other than watching videos of the minis, do they go better, as good, or worse beating into a short, steep chop than a pointy boat?  I realize that is probably not what they are designed for.  The videos of minis seem to suggest they push a lot of water forward in those type of conditions but I have no idea if it is slowing them down.  They sure seem to scream with cracked sheets though.

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5 minutes ago, bridhb said:

As someone that doesn't know squat about these "new" type scow bows, other than watching videos of the minis, do they go better, as good, or worse beating into a short, steep chop than a pointy boat?  I realize that is probably not what they are designed for.  The videos of minis seem to suggest they push a lot of water forward in those type of conditions but I have no idea if it is slowing them down.  They sure seem to scream with cracked sheets though.

From racing against them, the scows are slower up wind than the pointy bows, but minis are very scow like in general, 6.5m boats with 3m wide sterns. The top series boat is probably still the Pogo 3, which is a hybrid really, not a pointy bow, with the Maxi being the next potential. The older more pointy minis can hold on a lot more up wind, but just get smoked down wind by any of the more modern designs. (I race a Pogo 2).

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3 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

From racing against them, the scows are slower up wind than the pointy bows, but minis are very scow like in general, 6.5m boats with 3m wide sterns. The top series boat is probably still the Pogo 3, which is a hybrid really, not a pointy bow, with the Maxi being the next potential. The older more pointy minis can hold on a lot more up wind, but just get smoked down wind by any of the more modern designs. (I race a Pogo 2).

Thanks.  Watching the videos and the fuss they seem to make through the water when beating, that is what I would have expected but the designers seem to be very smart people.  Maybe someday I can get a ride on one of these type of boats, it would be a thrill.  Probably closer to my laser than my early 80's IOR racer/cruiser.

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Mini's in general all have massive heel to windward, so only half a scow is in the water up wind, there is a lot of "rounded" edges to the scow bows for that reason, flat edge down hill, bulbous bow up wind

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  • 2 weeks later...

Question for the Class 40 knowledgeable:  I have been told that some (many?) class 40s use a structural jib furler and simply lash the head of the jib to the top swivel.  You need to take the sail down, you go up the mast.  

I have discussed doing this on my own boat (an f31 tri)  with a number of knowledgeable sailors here in the PNW, and the reaction has been....   cautious.  I suspect that they are being polite, while thinking that I have a screw loose.  They always bring up the issue of "what happens if the furler fails, and you can't get the sail down".   

This worry seems to be codified in the safety equipment regulations promulgated by US Sailing (and largely copied by my local organizing authorities):  Section 3.35 says: "A boat shall not be rigged with any halyard that requires a person to go aloft in order to lower a sail".  This in contrast to the Offshore Special Regulations promulgated by World Sailing, which now say, in Section 3.25(b) "No halyard shall be locked lashed or otherwise secured to the mast in a way that requires a person to go aloft in order to lower a sail in a controlled manner, except for a headsail in use with a furling device."    

Does any one know if it is true that this form of structural furler is used the the Class 40s, and if so, have there been any problems that would justify what appears to be a prohibition of the lashed head structural furler by US Sailing?

Has anyone made a run at getting US Sailing to change their rule to track the World sailing rule?

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4 hours ago, Vincent DePillis said:

Question for the Class 40 knowledgeable:  I have been told that some (many?) class 40s use a structural jib furler and simply lash the head of the jib to the top swivel.  You need to take the sail down, you go up the mast.  

I have discussed doing this on my own boat (an f31 tri)  with a number of knowledgeable sailors here in the PNW, and the reaction has been....   cautious.  I suspect that they are being polite, while thinking that I have a screw loose.  They always bring up the issue of "what happens if the furler fails, and you can't get the sail down".   

This worry seems to be codified in the safety equipment regulations promulgated by US Sailing (and largely copied by my local organizing authorities):  Section 3.35 says: "A boat shall not be rigged with any halyard that requires a person to go aloft in order to lower a sail".  This in contrast to the Offshore Special Regulations promulgated by World Sailing, which now say, in Section 3.25(b) "No halyard shall be locked lashed or otherwise secured to the mast in a way that requires a person to go aloft in order to lower a sail in a controlled manner, except for a headsail in use with a furling device."    

Does any one know if it is true that this form of structural furler is used the the Class 40s, and if so, have there been any problems that would justify what appears to be a prohibition of the lashed head structural furler by US Sailing?

Has anyone made a run at getting US Sailing to change their rule to track the World sailing rule?

I think Open60s do it, too. If I remember correctly Boris Herrmann had to climb his mast to sort out furler issues. I would carefully look at the benefits vs disadvantages. What do you gain?

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Structural furling forestays with lashed J1s are common in Class 40 though some boats are going back to hanks and a halyard.  I believe that the advantages of the structural furling vs traditional furling are weight and perhaps some simplicity.  Not being able to lower the sail from the deck is, of course, the obvious disadvantage.  

The structural cables also have a shorter life vs a rod forestay and traditional furling (e.g. 2-3 years with a potential for a renewal with an inspection for the cable).

 

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Lashed head set up should reduce cost, windage, and weight relative to other furling set-ups.  I found an older rail meat post about the use of a lashed j1 on his class 40 (Dragon), and he said that getting good luff tension with a luff tackle was not that easy.   I am just thinking through what it will entail to get some additional luff tension as the wind rises-- i.e. go to the bow, try to hand tension a 4:1 tackle, and some how cleat it off and then stow the tail of the tackle.   Couple of cranks on a winch is a LOT quicker and easier...

As for the life of the structural cable-- that 2-3 year life for a $2500 cable would really not be acceptable to me.  Nor am I going to take the cable down and ship it overseas to the manufacturer for an inspection every couple of years.  

It would be really good to have some real world reports about cable life.   That kind of cable life (if true) makes the Colligo dux torque rope cable look really attractive.  I have a great deal of confidence in the longevity  of dyneema based cable.  (note that this is not the garden variety heat stretched dyneema, but rather a purpose constructed, non spliceable torque cable.  Only issue is that the clamps used to terminate it are pretty herky.)

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1 hour ago, Vincent DePillis said:

 I am just thinking through what it will entail to get some additional luff tension as the wind rises-- i.e. go to the bow, try to hand tension a 4:1 tackle, and some how cleat it off and then stow the tail of the tackle.   Couple of cranks on a winch is a LOT quicker and easier...

Boats I've sailed with tack down systems, (if you have a halyard lock for example) they usually come back to the pit. So you'd be winch and constrictor or clutch.

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1 hour ago, JonRowe said:

Boats I've sailed with tack down systems, (if you have a halyard lock for example) they usually come back to the pit. So you'd be winch and constrictor or clutch.

This would be for a system without furling, I presume.

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4 hours ago, Vincent DePillis said:

This would be for a system without furling, I presume.

What you haven't seen a furler on a tack line?

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38A52B7B-64FD-457D-B7EB-A75650D29A84.thumb.jpeg.5e8efb48c2831b4864cfdf521a4f6d88.jpegPalanad is visiting Hamble at the moment, it’s the first time I’ve seen one of the new scow generation 40s and I couldn’t get over the size of the bow area. Also how low they’ve managed to get the CoG. Other things I like include the coachroof covered with a giant solar panel. Mighty impressive thing

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Tip and Shaft interview with Axel Tréhin - seems the 2023 round the world race is exciting some of the serious pros! 

Tip and Shaft: (translation done by google translate!)

AXEL TRÉHIN: "THE POSSIBLE TOUR OF THE WORLD MAKES ME DREAM"
 
After almost a decade in the Mini Class, punctuated by a second place in proto on the 2019 Mini Transat, Axel Tréhin started in the Class40, having since January the second Max 40 (Reason Plan) launched. Before his very first race, the Normandy Channel Race (started on May 30) that he runs with Frédéric Denis, Tip & Shaft spoke with the skipper of Project Rescue Ocean.
 
How did you get started in a mini?
After my baccalaureate, I did a composite license and bought a first mini in 2010 that I took a long time to retype and on which I managed to do the Mini Transat in 2013. Then, I had the opportunity to recover Sébastien Rogues' old boat that was wrecked, the 716, with which I started with nine months of construction before continuing nine less sailing until the 2015 Mini Transat, which I finished frustrated, 6th in the second stage, for a 4th final place in the general standings. The logical continuation was to build a "real" project, complete, with a new boat, which I took fifteen months to build, essentially alone, and which immediately worked well: I made nine podiums in almost as many pre-season races, which allowed me to arrive much more ready on the 2019 Mini Transat, with in addition to partners, found three months before the start. In the end, I finished second, it was a great project of which I keep a lot of positive.
 
You only did proto, why?
On my first Mini, it was clearly an economical choice, I didn't have a radish, I bought the boat 4,000 euros. Afterwards, I liked the idea of sailing with a pendulum keel, asymmetrical fins, a tilting mast, much like in Imoca. I thought this aspect was super nice "I have an idea, I implement it from A to Z. ” 
 
At the end of the Mini Class, those who want to continue in competitive sailing often have the choice between the Figaro and the Class40, why did you opt for the latter?
It was a bit of the choice of the heart: when I was a kid, I dreamed of the Route du Rhum, not really the Solitaire du Figaro, and the most accessible support to do the Route du Rhum is the Class40. Afterwards, there is the technical aspect that makes it possible to get involved on these boats in a way quite different from the Figaro where the idea is to touch nothing. There is probably also some pride, in the sense that I would still like to try the Figaro one day because it's the reference series, but when I feel ready to do it well, I still need to learn before. Finally, there is the possibility of going around the world in Class40 that makes me dream.
 
Thinking of The Race Around in 2023?
Yes, it's very envying. Afterwards, I will ask myself more concretely the question after the Transat Jacques Vabre, because I really want to do things in order. But it's sure that in the evening when I fall asleep, I think about it, it's part of the projects I imagine presenting to my partners for the future.
 

"The Max 40 allows a passage
in the easier sea"

 
How did you start your project and structure your budget?
We started building a boat with an investor when we knew we would be able to complete part of the operating budget. I immediately started working in my workshop on pieces of structure, but there was no question of me doing the hull and deck, which I entrusted to JPS.We launched the boat on January 23, in an ideal timing, because we have had time since then to try it in different configurations of sails and weather conditions, I have the feeling that we have taken the measure. As for the operating budget, it was built from the beginning of construction, in June 2020, until June 2023, in all, it's a little more than 750,000 euros. Today, we have two-thirds of them, we are actively looking to complete the last third.
 
Why did you choose a David Raison plan?
First of all, because it was built at JPS, I really chose a builder/architect couple. Then, when I had to decide, the choice was essentially limited to the Manuard plan or the Reason plan, I opted for the second because it is more rocky, allowing an easier passage into the sea. My experience of the mini tells me that it is more suitable for the deckchairs that await me and it is also a Class40 that remains very versatile for the other races of the season. Now, the boats are very close, even the Mach 3 which remain formidable in many areas, especially those whose brions have been cut, such as Luke Berry's.
 
Did you surround yourself to take control of the boat?
Yes, as we launched it very early and were almost the only ones to sail, many people were available, it allowed me to embark sailors of different profiles: Kevin Escoffier, Thomas Coville, Nico Troussel, Vincent Riou, Yoann Richomme, François Jambou, coach Tanguy Leglatin... It was really interesting, because it allowed me to have a lot of feedback in all areas, from overall project management to small technical details on the boat. When people of this stature get on board, you have to be studious, it's worth taking notes, all these feedbacks have made me progress.


"On environmental issues,
I find that there is a lot of inertia"

 
Why choose Frédéric Denis as co-skipper on the Normandy Channel Race, then on the Transat Jacques Vabre?
First of all because he is a very close friend, we won the Mini Fastnet in 2018 together, we know how we work on water, so it's the assurance that it will go well. Then, because he is an excellent regattaman, he has a lot of experience on many different supports, he hasn't fallen asleep since his victory in the 2015 Mini! He is also a great engineer, very focused on embedded systems and especially pilots. The more I can draw on his expertise, the more I get ahead of next year during which I will be a little more solo flying on my own.
 
The logical continuation of the Class40 is often the Imoca and the Vendée Globe, is that already a goal for you?
I am very interested in the idea of going around the world, that of doing it in race, solo and non-stop even more, so yes, I would like to. When I was doing Mini, I thought the Class40 were big boats, while the Imoca, you shouldn't even think about it; now that I'm in Class40, I think it seems playable, the scale ratio changes as you gain as you get. After that, we now have Class40s that go at crazy speed, very close to the performance of older generations of Imoca, and when we compare the ecological impact by making a Class40 or making an Imoca, there is reason to ask ourselves questions...
 
Precisely, you defend the colors of an environmental protection association, do you think that offshore racing does enough on these issues?
I think she asks herself the right questions, lots of voices are raised with the desire to make a difference. It's a bit of our collective responsibility, if we want our children to be able to sail later, to take a turn now to ensure that we have less impact in our practice. Afterwards, I find that there is a lot of inertia, we meet a lot, we have a lot of discussions, but in the end quite little action. It's essentially for two reasons in my opinion: the first is because we still don't know what to start to tackle the problem; today, everyone does life cycle analyses, but it takes time, we have to collect the data, analyze them... So before pretending to say that we know, we have to have the answers and it takes time. Then there are also small mentality problems, it is a still very "young" cause, which does not yet permeate all strata of the population on the same scale, so to make a difference, we must convince everyone, it is not simple.

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On 5/14/2021 at 10:29 PM, JL92S said:

38A52B7B-64FD-457D-B7EB-A75650D29A84.thumb.jpeg.5e8efb48c2831b4864cfdf521a4f6d88.jpegPalanad is visiting Hamble at the moment, it’s the first time I’ve seen one of the new scow generation 40s and I couldn’t get over the size of the bow area. Also how low they’ve managed to get the CoG. Other things I like include the coachroof covered with a giant solar panel. Mighty impressive thing

I might be biased, but that just looks hot and functional to me. There is something about the lines that just speaks solidity and survivability. Would be awesome in fresh conditions with a big swell, put that volume in the bow to work.

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16 minutes ago, Alberta said:

image.thumb.png.e8da2536e8c676e6af24cb17ad9acb02.pngGreat photo from Anne Beauge showing the difference in rigs between a Pogo 12.50 and a Class40. 
 

@shaggybaxter the upgrade looks good, doesn’t it?

G'day Alberta,

That is a great photo, but that looks a bit stubby for a 12.50, you can 4 people inline in the cockpit with oodles of room. Looks like a Pogo 30, aluminium mast and there's no hatch just forrard of the mast.  

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2 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

G'day Alberta,

That is a great photo, but that looks a bit stubby for a 12.50, you can 4 people inline in the cockpit with oodles of room. Looks like a Pogo 30, aluminium mast and there's no hatch just forrard of the mast.  

I was thinking Pogo 30 too

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The Pogo 40 S3 mast height from DWL is something like 19m, the 12.50 was 18.5m. My aftermarket A2 was 200m2 which isn't far off a Class 40.  The big difference is the mast head sails, I'd like that on the 12.50 and the the bigger main, that'd be cool. 

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10 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

I might be biased, but that just looks hot and functional to me. There is something about the lines that just speaks solidity and survivability. Would be awesome in fresh conditions with a big swell, put that volume in the bow to work.

yea, that's pretty sweet looking.

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Well with no new Class40 builds announced for at least a week Amelie Grassi has announced the build of a VPLP designed 40 with a bakery - yes a bakery (who does have history as headline partner of the Mini Transat) as her title sponsor. 
 

https://www.courseaularge.com/amelie-grassi-en-class40-avec-la-boulangere-bio.html?fbclid=IwAR2fmHUZkZK75RrwwQ2m2A99ld173Gr0vzXNPakGIS-PVom2K34LwO_qRko

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Normandy Channel Race start this Sunday (the 30th).  5 scows (#158-162), 3 Mach 3s, 1 Lift among a really strong field of 24 class 40s.  Especially among the scows, it promises to be another good street brawl as it has been called in the past.  And, this time the plan is to have a TS5 cat follow the fleet and send back live or up-to-date media coverage.

https://normandy-race.com/en/

 

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It was a great race to watch! Huge result for Axel having just launched his new boat with minimal training. The competition in this fleet is just immense! 

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That’s some close racing!  The class is going from strength to strength- highlighting the philosophy of KISS of the class ethos in general!

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