corsair or dragon fly pro's and con

[Not for nothing 251]

thinking about a tri some more , in the 28-31 foot range which tri bang for the buck,

that telestar for 40k still looks interesting?

 

[Wess 2,487]

22 minutes ago, multihuler said:

There were 3 models of Telstars, I owned all three, the 2 earlier models were good boats,  ( minor issues), the 28 has horrible bridgedeck clearance. 

The most bang for the buck were the early f27s

I have a fondness in my heart for Tony Smith so don't want to bash the boat but you are the last person I would have expected to talk up the Telstar given the various other multis you own are all sort of are more performance focused shall I say?!

[MultiThom 145]

53 minutes ago, Not for nothing said:

thinking about a tri some more , in the 28-31 foot range which tri bang for the buck,

I guess that depends on what you mean by bang.  Just judging by how many hulls are currently afloat, more people think corsair offers the better bang for buck than dragons.  

[MultiThom 145]

9 minutes ago, multihuler said:

Dragons do have a classy interior

True, so if sitting and having a cocktail in classy surroundings is your bang, dragon is a better bang for buck.

[Sailabout 77]

where do you put the anchor on a 25 Dragonfly?

 

[Monkey 1,418]

4 hours ago, Sailabout said:

where do you put the anchor on a 25 Dragonfly?

 

Usually on the bottom. That’s where they hold the best. 

[TwoBirds 83]

5 hours ago, Sailabout said:

where do you put the anchor on a 25 Dragonfly?

 

At the end of the rode

[gspot 189]

Depends what you value in terms of bang for the buck.

If you value foldable/tailorable performance over finish, then go Corsair/Farrier. If you value foldable/tailorable refinement over pure performance, then go Dragonfly.

Dollar for dollar a Corsair/Farrier will out-perform a Dragonfly, but there is no comparison in the quality of the finish. 

It's like comparing a Mazda Miata with a similarly sized BMW or Mercedes.

[Sailabout 77]

4 hours ago, gspot said:

Depends what you value in terms of bang for the buck.

If you value foldable/tailorable performance over finish, then go Corsair/Farrier. If you value foldable/tailorable refinement over pure performance, then go Dragonfly.

Dollar for dollar a Corsair/Farrier will out-perform a Dragonfly, but there is no comparison in the quality of the finish. 

It's like comparing a Mazda Miata with a similarly sized BMW or Mercedes.

yes true, and the dragon fly looks good on the water but I can see many areas where it could be designed better, even the construction must make it very labour intensive to build hence the price.
Dragon fly - nice to look at
Corsair - nice to sail

[rattus32 45]

Russell, you've gotta be proud of this landing: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/02/18/science/nasa-mars-landing

Right in the "Jezerro Crater" You've got some provenance. ;-)

They basically dropped, as the STL police referred to them, a "Suburbitank" down there. By parachute and retro-rockets.

[D Wayne G 150]

On 1/11/2021 at 9:34 AM, multihuler said:

Farrier's folding system was taken from a garage door opener,  and the company was owned by Walmart , even better they started with a open checkbook and got it right out of the box.

Dragons do have a classy interior

Corsair was started by Ian Farrier and John Walton, not Walmart. They did NOT have an open check-book, far from it. John and Ian personally worked on the build of the plug for the first F27. They got it right because of Ian’s obsession with perfection.  

[multihuler 210]

4 hours ago, D Wayne G said:

Corsair was started by Ian Farrier and John Walton, not Walmart. They did NOT have an open check-book, far from it. John and Ian personally worked on the build of the plug for the first F27. They got it right because of Ian’s obsession with perfection.  

Hmmm,  

So, Walmart is owned by the Walton's

I did hear that John liked to do things on his own merit, and he was well liked.  I also know of John's love of trimarans, and sad that he died in a lightweight plane,  Only wished I had a chance to of met him.

Still believe Ian's x arms are a modification of the old one piece garage door opener, and Ian of course revolutionized the modern, trailerable,  wonderful trimaran that are darn fast. 

[SeaGul 67]

The Dragonfly is quite unique - ( I dont work for them - but impressed by how this family-company has managed to develop in a hight cost country like Denmark); https://dragonfly.dk/trimarams/our-story

There have alway been a good resale market for DFs. 

 

 

...and quite funny that they built a record breaking foiler in 1982....

[Kalimotxo 16]

On 2/13/2021 at 2:08 AM, Sailabout said:

yes true, and the dragon fly looks good on the water but I can see many areas where it could be designed better, even the construction must make it very labour intensive to build hence the price.
Dragon fly - nice to look at
Corsair - nice to sail

We went sailing on the new dragonfly. And signed contract the same night. Plenty pleasure of sailing. Little girl sleeping in a maxi-cosi under the sprayhood, tall girl on helm hooning over the baltic and screaming in delight in a puff and me making myself a fresh coffee in the kitchen. Glorious sailing to me but I am a simple man.

 

[gspot 189]

11 hours ago, multihuler said:

Still believe Ian's x arms are a modification of the old one piece garage door opener, and Ian of course revolutionized the modern, trailerable,  wonderful trimaran that are darn fast. 

It seems all the cool revolutionary thinkers get started in a garage - Jobs, Wozniak, Farrier... 

[D Wayne G 150]

47 minutes ago, gspot said:

It seems all the cool revolutionary thinkers get started in a garage - Jobs, Wozniak, Farrier... 

Or in a bar.

[jdazey 44]

5 hours ago, D Wayne G said:

Or in a bar.

And there you have the origin of the OSTAR!

[Amati 1,509]

On 2/12/2021 at 12:17 PM, gspot said:

Depends what you value in terms of bang for the buck.

If you value foldable/tailorable performance over finish, then go Corsair/Farrier. If you value foldable/tailorable refinement over pure performance, then go Dragonfly.

Dollar for dollar a Corsair/Farrier will out-perform a Dragonfly, but there is no comparison in the quality of the finish. 

It's like comparing a Mazda Miata with a similarly sized BMW or Mercedes.

Even with that new red paint?  

[Amati 1,509]

11 hours ago, Kalimotxo said:

We went sailing on the new dragonfly. And signed contract the same night. Plenty pleasure of sailing. Little girl sleeping in a maxi-cosi under the sprayhood, tall girl on helm hooning over the baltic and screaming in delight in a puff and me making myself a fresh coffee in the kitchen. Glorious sailing to me but I am a simple man.

 

I think Elvstrom had a 25?

[Amati 1,509]

1 hour ago, jdazey said:

And there you have the origin of the OSTAR!

That rhymes too!

[plywoodboy 113]

On 2/13/2021 at 6:17 AM, gspot said:

Depends what you value in terms of bang for the buck.

If you value foldable/tailorable performance over finish, then go Corsair/Farrier. If you value foldable/tailorable refinement over pure performance, then go Dragonfly.

Dollar for dollar a Corsair/Farrier will out-perform a Dragonfly, but there is no comparison in the quality of the finish. 

It's like comparing a Mazda Miata with a similarly sized BMW or Mercedes.

We all have our favourites but in OZ where Ian has many of Corsair and Farriers, you would find most owners as biased as I am. Ian always said if you want wood and lots of furniture, get a mono, so his design philosophy that we all aspire to is light and fast, even if you mainly cruise, all about the payload. You can find some of his designs with extra stuff if you need the comfort level.

The later Dragonfly certainlylooks comfy inside but we are guided here by the few that arrived on our shores not performing too well on the racecourse or the depreciation schedule, and there are those waterstay failures...

With a lot of our clubs boasting cheap hardstand areas, the F/C boat can often fold literally in seconds on the way to the ramp and the boat is up on the trailer quickly while the crew is in the shower. 

Peter  H

[Kalimotxo 16]

5 hours ago, plywoodboy said:

We all have our favourites but in OZ where Ian has many of Corsair and Farriers, you would find most owners as biased as I am. Ian always said if you want wood and lots of furniture, get a mono, so his design philosophy that we all aspire to is light and fast, even if you mainly cruise, all about the payload. You can find some of his designs with extra stuff if you need the comfort level.

The later Dragonfly certainlylooks comfy inside but we are guided here by the few that arrived on our shores not performing too well on the racecourse or the depreciation schedule, and there are those waterstay failures...

With a lot of our clubs boasting cheap hardstand areas, the F/C boat can often fold literally in seconds on the way to the ramp and the boat is up on the trailer quickly while the crew is in the shower. 

Peter  H

If you want to make other racing sailors despondent Meister Quorning will draw you a different boat. I suspect there are not many dragonflysailors who spend long days on their sail chart. But I learned to my surprise and bafflement somewhat nice interior as opposed to carbon nomex shell leads to more sexytime while sailing ie greater than zero.

[Solarbri 77]

23 minutes ago, Kalimotxo said:

If you want to make other racing sailors despondent Meister Quorning will draw you a different boat. I suspect there are not many dragonflysailors who spend long days on their sail chart. But I learned to my surprise and bafflement somewhat nice interior as opposed to carbon nomex shell leads to more sexytime while sailing ie greater than zero.

Sexy time while sailing is what it’s all about! However me thinks it’s more about the wood that you carry between your legs that is of upmost importance, and not of the quality of veneers down below!

[multihuler 210]

1 hour ago, Solarbri said:

Sexy time while sailing is what it’s all about! However me thinks it’s more about the wood that you carry between your legs that is of upmost importance, and not of the quality of veneers down below!

Hard not to make a joke,  cant beat a good woodie 

[Kalimotxo 16]

22 hours ago, Solarbri said:

Sexy time while sailing is what it’s all about! However me thinks it’s more about the wood that you carry between your legs that is of upmost importance, and not of the quality of veneers down below!

you have not met my wife             in my defense: those veneers were pretty!

[EarthBM 74]

It’s really easy:

if you have an end tie or mooring, get a fixed tri.

if you want to get to the mono dock after work and sail, get a DF

if you sail on weekends or longer, and don’t mind the work of pulling the boat out, get an F/C

[Hovertank 3]

EarthBM, could you please elaborate on what you think makes DF a better boat to be docked at a slip than an F/C and vice versa, why an F/C is appropriate for weekend dry sailing?

Thanks!

[tigger.mike 11]

"Could you please elaborate on what you think makes DF a better boat to be docked at a slip than an F/C and vice versa, why an F/C is appropriate for weekend dry sailing?"

I can't comment on the Farrier as never sailed one, however, we love our DF28 for how simple it is to jump on board, untie, and have both amas out and locked by the time we're 200m downstream. She always stays in the water and we manage to get some good deals on berths by able to get into very shallow positions for when the dredging is lacking. In a normal slip you don't need to be fully folded which gives a bit more stability (and less winching) and you can get into the amas.

Build quality is great (to my limited experience) and I'm always amazed by how solid she in the short, steep stuff I always seem to find in the Solent. I like fit and finish, can fit 5 on board in relative comfort. A little more headroom would be nice but I'll save that for the next one.

 

[EarthBM 74]

5 hours ago, Hovertank said:

EarthBM, could you please elaborate on what you think makes DF a better boat to be docked at a slip than an F/C and vice versa, why an F/C is appropriate for weekend dry sailing?

Thanks!

Think F/C boats are not stable enough in the water when folded and the sides of the amas get fouled. So can't keep them in the water folded in a single slip. And if you have an end-tie you should get a stiffer, higher performance fixed tri. So given the greater effort required to launch/retrieve an F/C, it should be amortized over a longer sail time on the water, like a weekend. You just won't bother for a 3-hour daysail.

[Airwick 189]

16 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Think F/C boats are not stable enough in the water when folded and the sides of the amas get fouled. So can't keep them in the water folded in a single slip. And if you have an end-tie you should get a stiffer, higher performance fixed tri. So given the greater effort required to launch/retrieve an F/C, it should be amortized over a longer sail time on the water, like a weekend. You just won't bother for a 3-hour daysail.

While I agree with the fouling and stability comments, F-boats actually make better day sailors because of the better sailing performance while the DF is better for overnighting thanks to the better accommodations.

Having the boat tied up at the dock definitely makes it easier to go for a short sail but you can get around the F-boat issues by using an AirDock or, if available, keeping it mast up on the trailer might be the best of both worlds (depending how far you have to walk to get from the parking lot to the boat, it might be just as quick to hook up the trailer and drop the boat in and load your stuff from the car to the boat rather than lugging it down the dock...)

The flip side being that if you keep your F-boat on its trailer at home, you can go for daysails from different starting points instead of being "stuck" sailing the same stretch of water by your dock over and over again. It takes me about 45min from driving up the ramp to hoisting sails which really isn't bad, I've sailed on boats that take at least as much time to get going from the dock (granted these were race boats that keep sails and running gear down below). I do almost exclusively daysails but pick the starting location depending on weather/mood, etc...

In the end the DF is a good compromise if you want some decent comfort for short cruises while being much faster than an equivalent mono. The F-boat will give you more performance at the expense of some comfort and offer the advantages of trailer sailing with a bit less convenience for parking in a "regular" slip. If you have access to an end tie and don't need trailering than a "fixed" boat will provide better bang for your buck or more "ultimate performance"  (but might be a lot harder to resale later on).

[gspot 189]

22 hours ago, Airwick said:

While I agree with the fouling and stability comments, F-boats actually make better day sailors because of the better sailing performance while the DF is better for overnighting thanks to the better accommodations.

Having the boat tied up at the dock definitely makes it easier to go for a short sail but you can get around the F-boat issues by using an AirDock or, if available, keeping it mast up on the trailer might be the best of both worlds (depending how far you have to walk to get from the parking lot to the boat, it might be just as quick to hook up the trailer and drop the boat in and load your stuff from the car to the boat rather than lugging it down the dock...)

The flip side being that if you keep your F-boat on its trailer at home, you can go for daysails from different starting points instead of being "stuck" sailing the same stretch of water by your dock over and over again. It takes me about 45min from driving up the ramp to hoisting sails which really isn't bad, I've sailed on boats that take at least as much time to get going from the dock (granted these were race boats that keep sails and running gear down below). I do almost exclusively daysails but pick the starting location depending on weather/mood, etc...

In the end the DF is a good compromise if you want some decent comfort for short cruises while being much faster than an equivalent mono. The F-boat will give you more performance at the expense of some comfort and offer the advantages of trailer sailing with a bit less convenience for parking in a "regular" slip. If you have access to an end tie and don't need trailering than a "fixed" boat will provide better bang for your buck or more "ultimate performance"  (but might be a lot harder to resale later on).

Airwick is the absolute master of trailer-sailing his F-boat, and we've modeled many of our techniques after his, although it still takes us about an hour to launch and retrieve.

The key to quick launching and retrieval is to leave as much of the boat rigged as possible while on the trailer (e.g. leave the sheets rigged instead of removing them), then just cover the whole mostly-rigged boat while on the hard.  

Still, an hour to launch and retrieve is very similar to rigging my monohull at the dock in race mode, although that can also be shortened a bit when rigged in cruise mode (e.g. using roller furling jib). With the extra steps of unfolding there probably isn't a huge difference between launching a Dragonfly from a slip versus a well-practiced F-boat launch at the ramp.

Also, there are HUGE time savings in maintenance projects by having the boat at home. My marina slip is 20 minutes away, so 40 minutes round trip without even getting any work done, while the F-boat on the trailer in my driveway is quite literally 30 seconds away from a full workshop. So saving just one maintenance trip to the marina per sailing excursion easily makes up for any difference in launch time.  

[MultiThom 145]

23 hours ago, EarthBM said:

Think F/C boats are not stable enough in the water when folded and the sides of the amas get fouled. So can't keep them in the water folded in a single slip. And if you have an end-tie you should get a stiffer, higher performance fixed tri. So given the greater effort required to launch/retrieve an F/C, it should be amortized over a longer sail time on the water, like a weekend. You just won't bother for a 3-hour daysail.

What is cool about the Farrier/Corsair boats is that the width folded is variable.  What we did after motoring into the slip is to pull the ama's out to the sides so the boat exactly fits the width of the slip (with fenders of course).  What happens is that the sides of the floats are no longer in contact with the water so the fouling is minimal.   Can keep it that way for several days without bottom paint--longer if you have bottom paint.  

Every Thursday during daylight savings time the local yacht club had beercan races and they let trimarans play.  So, every Thursday I launched (often by myself) for the 6 PM start gun and then after the sail hauled it out and lowered the mast and trailered to the club for "lies and libations".  Call it 25 mast raisings/lowerings for 5 years.  So, I really don't think you can claim that "you just won't bother for a 3 hour daysail".  Many Fboaters can get from trailer to sailing in a half hour or less (takes practice).  

[Hovertank 3]

On 2/22/2021 at 2:53 PM, EarthBM said:

Think F/C boats are not stable enough in the water when folded and the sides of the amas get fouled. So can't keep them in the water folded in a single slip. And if you have an end-tie you should get a stiffer, higher performance fixed tri. So given the greater effort required to launch/retrieve an F/C, it should be amortized over a longer sail time on the water, like a weekend. You just won't bother for a 3-hour daysail.

Some interesting info, thanks everyone for your replies.  The 'mast up on the trailer' option for F/C boats seems to be a popular method around here.

[craigiri 37]

On 2/18/2021 at 8:21 PM, D Wayne G said:

Corsair was started by Ian Farrier and John Walton, not Walmart. They did NOT have an open check-book, far from it. John and Ian personally worked on the build of the plug for the first F27. They got it right because of Ian’s obsession with perfection.  

 

I'm not easily impressed by FG boats - for example, my Precision 18 was all well and fine but when I noticed how the hull oil panned when bumping into a pier at 0 MPH it got me thinking. I owned my Sprint for about 7 seasons and took it out in very harsh conditions in RI. I (200 lbs) jumped and walked all over that boat and beached it and scrubbed it and beat on it - it is amazing how solid they are! Overbuilt - or, perfectly if we want to assume Ian wouldn't make it much heavier than nraieeded be.

Although the Dragonfly is nice, I drive a VW Sportwagen and an Avalon Hybrid, not a Lexus. Function and Value are part of the deal. Even if I had unlimited money I might not go for the more expensive model because I feel better beating up on (using) something that cost a bit less. 

But, then again, if I was looking to impress (both myself and others), I'd look at the Dragonfly with every available upgrade. I'd also keep in mind parts and service and all that stuff. I don't think you'd go wrong with any of those boats. 

I think it takes a certain type to raise.lower trail sail a boat. Or, of a certain age...or whatever. I used to drive 8 hours to good ski conditions in N. Vermont (or fly to Utah or Tahoe) but now I'd generally want to stay trailside. I think once a person get spoiled (moored boat, mast up) it's probably hard to go back!

I'd trailer sail if I had to but it wouldn't be with a 24-30 foot boat! More likely with less than 500 lbs and less than 16". 
But that's me (old and grey). 
 

I saw a Sprint docked in Sarasota yesterday - I still love that open cockpit but realize that's not what a lot of people want. 

[MultiThom 145]

1 hour ago, craigiri said:

 

I'd trailer sail if I had to but it wouldn't be with a 24-30 foot boat! More likely with less than 500 lbs and less than 16". 
But that's me (old and grey). 
 

Made similar decisions.  A bit more than 500 pounds and a bit longer than 15'.  Faster than the F24 I used to drive but easier with no winches on the boat at all.  But, also not as sturdy nor as well supported as either Corsair or DF boats.  Don't have to trailer sail, but choose to because I like to play with the boat while on the trailer and in the side yard Just For Fun.