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Dig these shuntingers (proas)...that is a good sized rig...someone has to make me comforable with close-quarter-shunting...I have tied and still preferr tacking...but just MHO. Tacking make sense in harbors and approaching moorings.."tacking proa," if you will.. Gots a video? 

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pasted from the Multihull Anarchy forum.

I'll step in to answer part of the Editor's question of "WHY?".

Why a proa?

In the 2018 Regatta Al Sol, we saw the Proa Jzerro with a crew of 3 line up against a well crewed and race optimized F-31 Trimeran.  If you only looked at the polars, specs and past performance, it was not much of a race.  The Trimaran is faster upwind, faster downwind, and much faster on a reach.  With an ace crew to steer the F-31 over the 550 mile course, Jzerro's odds looked vanishingly thin.  Most figured the only way the trimaran would lose would be if they pitch-polled.

At the start, the F-31 crew hit the line at speed and led the fleet out of Pensacola bay as the U.S. Navy Blue Angels practiced their show overhead.  As soon as Jzerro cleared the required marks of the Pensacola ship channel, we raised the blades a bit, and cleared over the channel spoil area to be the first boat in the fleet to get east.  Throughout the next 20 hours of upwind sailing, the F-31 stayed ahead, and JZerro protected the east.  JZerro hit the shift first, and briefly grabbed the lead as the weather started turning nasty.

Over the next 40 hours, what became TS Alberto began to form over us.  Winds were not especially strong, but were highly variable, and seas were generally less than 2m but confused.  By daylight, the F-31 wouid make small gains.  They were unable to hit their best speeds due to the confused seas and highly variable winds.  In this condition Jzerro did not care.  She steadily ticked off 10.5 kts whether it was moderate or puffy and regardless of the seas drenching her crew.

When the sun went down, you could no longer see the waves, and steering around the occasional tall waves was not possible.  There was always a risk of taking one straight in the teeth.  The team on the F-31 made the prudent decision to throttle down reduce the risk of a big puff or big wave tripping them up.  Again, Jzerro did not give a damn.  She just kept on trucking, waves (and her crew) be damned.  Even by daylight, when sea state and wind conditions were at their most challenging, Jzerro steadily pulled distance on the F-31.

Going into the final night of the race, Jzerro held a small lead on the F-31 but conditions were beginning to moderate for those at the front of the fleet (those further back took a caneing).  Through the night, the proa gained distance again, and in the morning was able to hold off the charging trimaran to take line honors, and the handicap win from the faster boat.

In a nutshell, this is why Ryan's choice of a proa is a wise one for the 2Oceans1Rock challenge.  Where cats and trimarans have blistering speed in the proper conditions, the proa can keep on trucking in conditions where the more high performance boats would have to back down.  When conditions become untenable, a cat or trimaran would have to tow warps and a sea anchor while hand steering in order to survive, to the detriment of the health and rest of the skipper.  The proa is inherently fail-safe, and can be depowered and switch easily into "survival mode" where Ryan may be able to catch up on some sleep.

Prior roundings of the Horn on this course have almost always required a couple of days of surviving dreadful conditions off the west coast of Chile.  I believe Ryan has taken that in mind in his preparation, and he has selected the best boat that will ensure he will finish while also providing enough turn of speed in all conditions to challenge the record.

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Shunts and tacks are not similar, to me, in the doing..

I still cannot reconcile shunts in close quarters....

I think maybe, in the video above,  I am more like the swab on the right, who turns and walks away--seemingly indifferent.

My flaw here is, if it is a flaw, is a preference for lazy/safe tacks. Flip the tiller (the gouvernail) and pick up the limp jib sheet...works for me and dodgers on other boats....tacking proa is me fervent, still. But,, that is me and maybe White...avoids havoc, and, generally, do not have to move ya bum!

I wonder how long it will take the lingo cops to show here...tacking proa versus proa? "Proa" as I have it means "boat." Shunting is another means to change direction altogether....still nicely done and fascinating...in expansive waters.

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short tacking out of a harbor would be a challenge.

But if you want to do a lazy shunt, that's no problem.  In fact, if you just want to stop mid-shunt, have a snack, sail off a bit to port, clean up the meal, then complete the shunt, that's no problem.  The video above is our effort to see how quickly we can switch from one tack to the other for round the bouys racing (not recommended).  It definitely does not have to be that hurried.

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Mssr. Boudreaux, I sympathize avec your desires, but alas, I know of a channeled entrance harbor that might (not permit) shunting of any sort. 

Moreover, I seriously doubt one could shunt-capture a crowded harbor bouy. Not a "nay," just common consideration. 

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On 1/13/2021 at 1:49 AM, BobBill said:

Mssr. Boudreaux, I sympathize avec your desires, but alas, I know of a channeled entrance harbor that might (not permit) shunting of any sort. 

Moreover, I seriously doubt one could shunt-capture a crowded harbor bouy. Not a "nay," just common consideration. 

It is far easier to pick up a buoy or a man overboard on a properly set up proa than on any other sail boat.  The important thing is the ability to stop the boat. The best way to do this is an unstayed mast and no headsail.  Also helpful is the ability to sail in both directions.  

Shunting speed and effort also depends on how the boat is set up.  A twin tip kite is the fastest shunter, a balanced rig controlled by a single sheet a more practical and almost as quick an option.  There are a number of balanced rigs.  A wing masted rig is partially balanced, a ballestron (aka Aero rig or Easy Rig) more so.   A Dutch crowd built a mast with a forward kink just above the deck.  It worked, but cost a lot.   The second most important feature is that it is self vanging.  Most mainsheet force is applied to get the leech straight.  If this can be done with a separate control (the boom is rigidly attached to the unstayed mast in the pics), the sheet loads are much smaller.  A wing rig is the ultimate, but wishbone booms are more practical.  It also helps if the rudders rotate automatically.  

From John Metza in the Multihulls Mailing List several years ago: "I watched Rob shunt his 25' proa upwind up the narrow (35m for most of it) boat filled channel in front of his house so fast and easy I thought he must've had an electric motor hidden in the leeward hull. I would've had a very difficult time doing it in a beach cat without stalling, hitting somebody's boat and/or breaking out a canoe paddle. With the exception of a wind surfer, I had never seen a sailboat with a reverse gear before. He could head right for something, then throw it in reverse, back away and bolt off in a new direction under perfect control.” The boat he is referring to is Elementarry, shown with a schooner rig and a single mast.    http://harryproa.com/?p=1753

Go Ryan!  

1433931198_ScreenShot2021-01-17at9_51_39am.png.67c913cc96d1bdff4452760934dd146b.pngP1010112.jpg.0dc5e9953604df3a308c8cb826d00c4b.jpg

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Harry, Dig your position. Nice rig too. Would love to sail with tandem mains as in lower pic...love it and looks so slick.

Rig also made me wonder how you might navigate the Pepin Harbor channel...which is about two times the beam of top boat and has one 90 degree turn on ingress or egress...especially if wind or pressure is "wrong" for channel. 

As for bouy-fetch...seems mox-nix as most people just grab or hook the bouy at speed anyway...just popped into me head...

A shunt entails a lot more work and area, it seems to me, so

The simple fetch might be more applicable to coming up to end of pier or jetty gently. 

Moreover, seems, generally, easier to simple toss tiller over at the right time, instead of doing a shunt---to me.

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Harry, I do have a question...the sales seem sleeved, so how does (Ryan) bend sail in a stiff breeze? 

I know even smaller board boat dodger with sleeved sails have issues, and those sails are high aspected and fully battened, to boot, which makes them heavier.

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Proas are designed to go out in the morning, in the offshore breeze maybe, stop, fish, and then head back in the afternoon's onshore breeze.  It's conceivable that in their traditional use, there's no tacking at all, or at most one after the fish are caught. 

 

On a short W/L race course, or trying to navigate a harbor,  of course they are going to be shite.    You have to stop to tack.

 

For a long voyage such as this, maybe it's ok, he's going to be on one tack for days.   It'd be like a lighter tri.     Not as quick as a Jules Verne boat but that's probably not the point, it seems more like a personal journey.    2/3 the hulls, and a more human scale cost.  

 

Concern might be getting rolled by the big waves, but men aged 40 something are the highest suicide risk.   There's worse ways to go.   Either he makes it and has done something really cool, or he doesn't, somewhat in the spirit of Donald Crowhurst and the Tiegnmouth Electron, which happened to be a trimaran.  This dude is living the dream for sure,  going all in, and I respect that.  

 

The article about him on nola seems to indicate he's got a resume, and might have an idea of what he's getting into.    I wish him luck, it's cool beans.   It's inspiring that a guy can even dream this up, and get to the point that he maybe sets sail.    Kudos and thanks to him for that.  

 

 

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Gsasquach, most of yuor comment makes perfect sense...some was over me head, like first sentence last para. The OP or Harry P and his rig? If so, me like thee do love both and Harry's lots, but here i'd have  put a rudder on either one.

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Not sure about Harry.    Article linked on the front page said "His first solo trip was on a 21-foot boat from Slidell to Savannah, Georgia, with a stop in the Florida Keys. Since then he’s logged more than 112,000 nautical miles, including multiple crossings of the Atlantic and Pacific."   This isn't this guy's first rodeo, according to that.

If you watch that video above close, you can see they switch rudders from one side to another.     I'd imagine you could tack a proa, as long as it wasn't so windy and the ama had enough buoyancy.   Taking that to the extreme, and you wind up with a catamaran.  

Around there on Pepin, a proa probably wouldn't work as well.    I think the traditional folks in those parts mainly paddled canoes.      You should  come up and sail a real lake, where you can run on a tack for a couple days.    I too like symmetry, and spend most my time within a day's sail of home tacking through narrow places, so you do have a point.   I don't live on a pacific island, and big macs don't live in the see.     This is kind of a special use, and a boat that's designed to prove some sort of a point, or push the boundaries of how we think which is a good thing. 

I wonder how many sailing records are left that can be beat with less than a million bucks?    This project looks like it might be 5 figures, and might do it.   He's got to average 7.21 knots, and that doesn't seem outside the realm of what a normally funded guy could do.

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Dig, but old dog me thinks it is all just too much work to do a tack, which, in my lowly rig, just needs a tiller-shove.  

Even when I sailed 14s and had to move, I figured it was easy, nowaays, this old swab likes to sit, sail and seill, and, not alter butt placement. In fact, the idea of a shunt makes my bod cringe a bit. but the rig above makes me wixh it was warm here.

Cannot wait for April...rain or shine...

Harry's rig in #13 aove, 2nd pic, (actually both pics) is class proa that makes me drewl, but might prove a problem to move in Pepin's wee ingress-egress channel. 

In fact, I did plan a single sail fully battened, rig, but went for easy...with my current rig - pic of both below... Center is rig, 3rd is White's "Tacking Proa."

White rig is stayed, which I had to do (change) per help on boatdesign, org. Interesting boat and lots of different stuff rigged.

1HiAspectMO.jpg

1_GnarlyBobber.jpg

1origDragonfly.gif

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First two designs it looks like you're fighting nature.     The proa being as big as the main hull it's a weird catamaran.   For ease of build you could just as well move the mast to one side of a Hobie cat.     Any of them are going to have a favored tack.  (Starboard?  not entirely sure how proas work, if it's the weight of the proa holding the sail up or the buoyancy of the proa, maybe it depends on the wind.)   Not sure that's a problem, just different.   It'd be kind of cool to see how well it works.    

As with tacking just about anything, you'd have to move your old butt to balance it out one way or another, you seem to allude to that with the rail on the other side of the main hull.  Still, that would be easier than changing the sails completely over, which is probably why most boats are symmetrical side to side vs. fore and aft. 

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Gsasquatch...never really move me bum in keel boats with or wirhout crew. Loved the low side with the water rushing close. (usually sat on port side)

The rig was matched to Seaman's original Malibu Outrigger plans. I salvaged two messed hulls and carbon spars, and used the longer 16 Hobies hull as is, to support crew...and cooler, which worked fine. Hobie hulls are weak and cannot take unstayed rigs, so add stays. Also, pressure when on port is high in any condition.

The mast on the main hull on both plans was intended as unstayed at CE, as boat was a tacker. and intented to replace outrigger with foam this spring. I determined with experience, the high aspect, bendy and fully battened main desire was too heavy and comlicated, so stayed with origninal plan, thank heavens.

Only two hulls, main (vaka) and the outrigger or ama. Mast sits on vaka...at CE or close.

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Forgot to add---making new outrigger to replace Hobie-16...all foam (OwensCorning from Big Box with Gorillaand e-glass). Will still be asymetrical shape, and will cut deck of vaka to add cockpit for feet in hull, and add lazy jacks, so gaff/sail can drop and stay dry-er. Figure will still get wetted...rig is fun to play with. Decided to test the hook/loop sail attachments in heavy pressure to see if continues to hold up and take it. Rig is simple...little things for fun,  still like the twin mains above...

 

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Cockpit command center would be pretty cool.  There's something to be said for designing for comfort and ergonomics.       Where do you place it, considering you'd be a significant portion of the displacement?     Close to the main hull on proa side?  In the main hull like a international 2.4?

I have button snaps holding together little straps every foot to hank on  on my #1 jib,  and they are a bit different.   Failed once in 25knots to dramatic effect, but that might have been the bowman's fault for not hooking on the tack or missing a snap.    After that considered regular brass hanks, but they're a couple bucks per, although I've since harvested enough from a retired sail.     Hook and loop should work.  My favorite method for attaching a sail to a mast is probably the slug/slider things. 

I've been considering that xps foam sandwiched over ply glassed over for amas to turn a  canoe into a hydroplane.   Figured the wood core would give something somewhat rigid to attach the structure too.  

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Location is just aft of dagger-slot, with Hexes (halyard, mainsheet, large flat compass, and Clamcleat bollard (halyard) forward. ll with easy access.

Reason is comfort...legs down in it, and a certain amount of leverage...when heeling (feet/edge).

Floor above water line to effect draining...if needed.

Hook and loop is not new...Paine Yacht is maker-user I got idea from and so far, fine...needed method to attach ssail to round carbone apars (sans tracks etc.)....

Recent concern is foam to foam (gorilla Glue) with not epoxy (too hard. difficult faining), but no doubt, more surprises coming.)

Last major problem (am not a "rigger") was stays...used Clamcldats and high strength synthetic line...OA length, to rig, with abiility to alter underway. -on-going process here.) 

The lazy-jacks do conern me, but not overly so...com se,- sa...a minor PIA, compared to wire-cutting foam etc..(Would be nice to have indoor spot to do work now.)

 

 

 

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I glued foam to foam with gorilla glue on a model catamaran when the front fell off.    Worked until it didn't.   Didn't have much surface area was one problem.     The mouse boat poor man's fiberglass instructable suggests using this spikey paint roller to get lots of holes in the foam for the glue to ooze into, and give it more surface area, a kind of mechanical connection with the glue.    As far as the poor man's fiberglass, I tried it, it wasn't smooth, pretty much ruined the project.    Might have been my method was wrong.  I'll stick to epoxy, but that's an outside thing, where the titebond can be done inside and doesn't stink up the house. 

 

Not sure how much sail sewing you're doing, but you might want to check out the "wharram wing"  He wraps the sail around the mast essentially, for a smooth profile, uses a gaff rig too.    Not sure how he gets it on and off, but seems like velcro might be an answer there.   On a dinghy if you're derigging it when you put it away,  you might just sew it up and pull the mast out when you're done like a wind surfer

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Thanks, will check Gorilla out...hope it saves me grief. (the GG infor. Never sewed sailcloth, cotten or Dacron. Do know about the Wharran thing...I think he simply leaves the wing in place...collapsed on itself...I have pic on other computer...this one is spare, so no pic...I think his wing is essestially a set of forward rising frames or interior skeletan the softer sail envelopes that he, somehow, raises (carbon mast) with the soft stuff forming leading of wing as it extends upward...which is far more pragmatice than solid wings, which are so unwieldy...it reminded me of a vertical verson of the balsa frames that formed the fusalage (to hold the strips the paper was glued too) of the old rubber-band prop aircraft we tried to make and keep flying...free flyers did not last long.

Wharram.jpg

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Sas  Thanks for heads-up re GG...It is polyeurathraane glue and looks like white stuff is good, but Loctite might be better choice...looks like basically a waterprooof wook glue and a bit spendy.`

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I think, re Wharram soft sail, the leading-luff edge, encloses frames and single fabric going aft from the frames, Might be a bit stiff with Dacron...but not sure.Like looking at wing from tip or end. Makes sense to me...if not left in place or material is not stiff...maybe material around the frames is cotten and the aft sail is Dacron...then there is the batten thing...all fun thinking sufff, to ,me

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/17/2021 at 9:45 PM, BobBill said:

Harry, Dig your position. Nice rig too. Would love to sail with tandem mains as in lower pic...love it and looks so slick.

Rig also made me wonder how you might navigate the Pepin Harbor channel...which is about two times the beam of top boat and has one 90 degree turn on ingress or egress...especially if wind or pressure is "wrong" for channel. 

As for bouy-fetch...seems mox-nix as most people just grab or hook the bouy at speed anyway...just popped into me head...

A shunt entails a lot more work and area, it seems to me, so

The simple fetch might be more applicable to coming up to end of pier or jetty gently. 

Moreover, seems, generally, easier to simple toss tiller over at the right time, instead of doing a shunt---to me.

Sorry about the slow reply, have been busy building a cargo proa for green shipping.

If the proa is set up properly, sailing in narrow channels is easy, see the observation in my previous post.  If it is crowded, the ability to stop and wait, or sail in the opposite direction is also handy.      No argument that on small boats in light air, tacking is less work.  As the boat gets bigger and the wind stronger, shunting gets comparatively easier, and overtakes when it is windy enough to reef.

The sleeved sails are only for day sailing.  They are a pain to rig and can't be lowered or reefed.  They were used as our sailmaker built pretty good windsurfer sails.  There are far better options.

 

Cargo proa sketch.png

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Thank-you. 

Yes. Sleeved Sails are a PIA...but have no choice here with carbon/ spars--cannot add slides, etc and the hook and loop seems to hold, though a bit unusual...still I just love yoiur rigs.

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