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Wmuwally

Guest CAT 3's driving boat on Wednesday Night Beercan Season

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Question. 

There is some discussion within our Race and Regatta Committee whether a boat should be allowed to have a CAT 3 guest helm in the absence of the normal helmsman. Some people think it should not be allowed others think they should be allowed. Does your club restrict who can drive your boat in your absence? I will say we have some boats who's regular helmsman (non-owner) is a CAT 3.

Thoughts?

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Our beer cans have no limitations who can drive and or crew during a beer can.   Let be honest it a beer can race, we might put up old bloopers and unrated sales just to have fun.   

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Our Wednesday night beer can races (which we are hoping to have again one day) have no rules at all.  None.  No handicaps either.  Just fun.  We loosely follow the RRS but abandon them quickly if it looks like there might be an inexperienced sailorracer on the course.

The only time there is a problem is when someone pretends there are rules.  That person is generally dealt with afterward in the pub in a friendly manner.

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It depends. If you are racing OD with OD sails and the OD rules say no Cat 3's on the helm then, it us up to them.

I think Wed night racing should be more about getting EVERY single person (female) who wants to sail, out there. Grow the Sport

Sail Safe!

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It's a weeknight club race - the objective should be maximum participation mixed with fun learning.

If you care about who wins for longer than it takes to get the beer out of the cooler, this is not your event.

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On 1/14/2021 at 3:17 PM, Wmuwally said:

Question. 

There is some discussion within our Race and Regatta Committee whether a boat should be allowed to have a CAT 3 guest helm in the absence of the normal helmsman. Some people think it should not be allowed others think they should be allowed. Does your club restrict who can drive your boat in your absence? I will say we have some boats who's regular helmsman (non-owner) is a CAT 3.

Thoughts?

I would caution about instituting any rule that limits participation, crew numbers, crew weight (outside of strict OD)...quite frankly, our sport needs LESS restrictions on who comes on boats rather than rules about who gets to play with the fun stick when the owner is not there. Personally I have raced beer-can in different locations where pros / VERY high level amateurs literally dominate the landscape, and then have done some really chill beer-can sailing where the odd cat 3 jumps on the helm. In both cases there was MUCH learning too be had and there was no shortage of fun. I am very lucky to sail regularly with a few 3s who I consider life long close friends...a couple have driven the boat when I have been out of town. It has never been an issues with other skippers / owners and they usually welcome the challenge. 

YMMV.

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"Beer can racing"  is defined by how many ringers and how big a kite you can get ahold of.  If its a Yacht Club Weeknight series any club rules might apply.

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'Cat3' dosnt necessarily mean they can drive a 5 knot shitbox any better than you can

  

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On 1/14/2021 at 3:17 PM, Wmuwally said:

Question. 

There is some discussion within our Race and Regatta Committee whether a boat should be allowed to have a CAT 3 guest helm in the absence of the normal helmsman. Some people think it should not be allowed others think they should be allowed. Does your club restrict who can drive your boat in your absence? I will say we have some boats who's regular helmsman (non-owner) is a CAT 3.

Thoughts?

Meh, I'm kinda with someone else up thread who said that them being a cat3 doesn't necessarily make them a better driver of a particular boat. 

I've been in some fairly tightly run 1D classes over the years where it wasn't allowed.. didn't care, the venue where I do Wed nights couldn't give two shits. If it's a question of a boat going out on the water or not, I'm in favor of letting anyone who wants to drive it take it out as long as they competent enough to drive. I seem to recall, several years ago,  the J30 class in Annapolis allowing a non-owner driver of a given boat, providing there was some paperwork done prior to a 1D event. I think the emphasis today should be towards whatever it takes to get more boats out on the water. If someone is gonna have a shitfit over a pickle dish because someone else drove so and so's boat, fuck em. 

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It’s a beer can race who cares if you have a cat 3.Are the rest of the people that insecure?

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Some Thursday evening racing on the Sound is quite serious with expensive boats and expensive sails.

On some boats the sailmakers and cat 3s show up to help their customers go fast. Im actually all in favor, because if a guest cat 3 can help crew and owner learn to be better sailors, that is a good thing. The results dont matter too much to most of us.   The wise cat 3 will offer to do a debriefing after racing to help everyone. Builds their franchise.

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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Some Thursday evening racing on the Sound is quite serious with expensive boats and expensive sails.

On some boats the sailmakers and cat 3s show up to help their customers go fast. Im actually all in favor, because if a guest cat 3 can help crew and owner learn to be better sailors, that is a good thing. The results dont matter too much to most of us.   The wise cat 3 will offer to do a debriefing after racing to help everyone. Builds their franchise.

yeah.. operative keywords being "wise cat 3". I haven't been categorized lately.. never really was at any risk of being a cat 3, and I only say this because at one point in the not too distant past, there were some pretty dubious activities that would thrust one into that category. being a sailing instructor or operating a launch at a marina or a fiberglass tech in a boatyard.. I always felt that shit was pretty ridiculous. 

 

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Why try to limit participation?  Having a pro in the mix will only serve to lift everyone’s game, especially if that pro is willing to offer advise after racing.

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If the owner is so insecure that he has to pay for a Cat 3 driver for a beer can race....

I sailed one Wed night in Annapolis and the guest Cat 3 was the tactician.

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On 1/15/2021 at 6:17 AM, Wmuwally said:

Question. 

There is some discussion within our Race and Regatta Committee whether a boat should be allowed to have a CAT 3 guest helm in the absence of the normal helmsman. Some people think it should not be allowed others think they should be allowed. Does your club restrict who can drive your boat in your absence? I will say we have some boats who's regular helmsman (non-owner) is a CAT 3.

Thoughts?

In my club it is always best the the guest driver pleads guilty to an offence of assault with GBH first.

So is your question serious?

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Wed.nite...what a great opportunity to learn something from a Cat.3 or other.  Save the rules for sanctioned events.  

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Wednesday Night Worlds in our area is the most seriously taken racing for the whole year, bar none.  You best come with your newest sails (if you don't have a channel blaster; waste of time), the highest finish racing bottom, super calibrated electronics and a full complement of cat 3, 4 and 5 sailors from around the world !

That said the best Wednedsay night race I did was on a Wabbit out of Richmond Yacht Club.  Mass start out of he marina. headsail reach to the mark, firehose reach back to the marina and made up on the fly ratings system.

But, it was not a Wednesday Night Worlds, so doesn't count.  

 

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Then again there is the owner who  will miss 3-4 races for travel and his two regular  pros will bring crew and take the boat and race in the series without any ownership on board. 
No rule against it but not exactly in the spirit of the series. 

oh what people will do for a beer can series pickle dish. 

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3 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

Then again there is the owner who  will miss 3-4 races for travel and his two regular  pros will bring crew and take the boat and race in the series without any ownership on board. 
No rule against it but not exactly in the spirit of the series. 

oh what people will do for a beer can series pickle dish. 

I dunno, seems like the pros should be allowed to race for fun sometimes too. I doubt they're using their beer can wins to pad their resumes... 

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1 hour ago, TJSoCal said:

I dunno, seems like the pros should be allowed to race for fun sometimes too. I doubt they're using their beer can wins to pad their resumes... 

They are doing it for:
1.Money  
2.A burger at the bar after the race 
2.Chance to sell another sail

Sure they can race. Just buy a boat. 

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it's a beercan race, for Christ's sake...

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OK, so for most clubs Beer-cans is not a serious deal, BUT for some it is. I don't know about Muskegon, maybe the weds night series is the main deal for their club racers. So lets assume:

1. There are people at the club for whom the weds night series is the most serious racing they do,

2. The club still wants as many boats as possible to show up.

3. Any pro who is stepping in to drive will not care either way about the season standings

4. Bringing in a pro to help your score for a weds night series is definitely taking things too seriously

There is no reason not to design the scoring to help make this work, it looks like the Muskegon weds night series is a high point series, one option would be to score boats based on the driver, if there is a different driver then the boat gets scored as a different boat, it lets the pro take the boat out and have some fun or run a clinic without annoying the people who care about the series scores.  You could add complication by making allowances for regular crew to take a turn on the helm, etc.

Sure we can tell people to stop taking weds night racing so seriously, but there is a subgroup out there that do want to take it seriously, let's encourage them to show up too :).

 

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Set up an Olympic diving style scoring system. You discard your best and your worst score. Pro drives your boat, you get to learn something without screwing up every one else’s series. 

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On 1/16/2021 at 10:02 PM, Cristoforo said:

They are doing it for:
1.Money  
2.A burger at the bar after the race 
2.Chance to sell another sail

Sure they can race. Just buy a boat. 

horseshit.. I've had cat 3s on my boat probably 35 or 40 times since I've been racing. I've paid one to be a tactician exactly once. I've never had them drive. Those occasions when they've been on the boat, when I wasn't there, I took as an opportunity for one of my crew to drive with some adult supervision.  You're painting with an awfully wide brush with your remarks. and I know of very little hired helms going on around the Chesapeake Bay. There are a few boats with a pro driver, but they also happen to be really good friends with the owner and I seriously doubt and coin is changing hands. 

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10 hours ago, JohnMB said:

OK, so for most clubs Beer-cans is not a serious deal, BUT for some it is. I don't know about Muskegon, maybe the weds night series is the main deal for their club racers. So lets assume:

1. There are people at the club for whom the weds night series is the most serious racing they do,

2. The club still wants as many boats as possible to show up.

3. Any pro who is stepping in to drive will not care either way about the season standings

4. Bringing in a pro to help your score for a weds night series is definitely taking things too seriously

There is no reason not to design the scoring to help make this work, it looks like the Muskegon weds night series is a high point series, one option would be to score boats based on the driver, if there is a different driver then the boat gets scored as a different boat, it lets the pro take the boat out and have some fun or run a clinic without annoying the people who care about the series scores.  You could add complication by making allowances for regular crew to take a turn on the helm, etc.

Sure we can tell people to stop taking weds night racing so seriously, but there is a subgroup out there that do want to take it seriously, let's encourage them to show up too :).

 

How many boats show up for these races?  Are there enough boats for both a competitive and a fun division?  Separate prizes.  You can upgrade but you can't downgrade within a given series.  If you have a pro driving you have to be in the competitive division.

Does that work?

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Sailing against people better than you makes you a better sailor. Our sport needs more participation and less bitching.

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