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Singlehanded Sailing Society; SHTP Seminar on emergency rudders


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At this point, it's scheduled for. Wednesday evening, Feb. 24th.  It focuses on emergency steering solutions for shorthanded boats, and not necessarily for people with Open 60's.  There won't be disucssions of doing stuff like bolting a hatchboard to a spinnaker pole, OK?   

 

It'll be via ZOOM.  I'll put the URL here when we get closer to the event.

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Proposed schedule ..proposed! Not set in stone!    This is "heavy" on San Francisco Bay Area - NorCal resources, since the SSS is based here, but the principles and equipment you'll see are applicable anywhere. This is for SHORTHANDED boats. We don't talk a lot about systems which might work OK on boats with large crews. So for example, any system deployed has to work with an autopilot or windvane, because the boats won't have crews to steer 24/7.

SSS Emergency Rudder Seminar

First Hour

Introduction - basic principles and requirements: Alan Hebert.... 7.5 minutes. (Confirmed)

Video: Bob Johnston and Dave Herrigel, deploying rudders made by Greg Nelson... 7.5 minutes (Confirmed)

Speaker: Gordy Nash …photos and speaking about his rudders ... 10 minutes (Confirmed)

Speaker: Giles Combrisson, GC composites. ...10 minutes (Confirmed)

Real-Life experiences at Sea: Max Crittenden, deploying an e-rudder coming back from the Farallones ... 10 minutes. (Confirmed)

Real-Life experiences at Sea: Brian Boschma or Rob MacFarlane … 10 minutes

— approximately 55-60 minutes —

Break / Discussion: other alternatives: drogues, poles with hatchboards lashed to the backstay, other deployment experiences, etc. I hope Tom B. will talk about the practicality or lack thereof of actually replacing a rudder at sea, as I've seen him do it, solo, in the slip. ...15 minutes


Second Hour

Making a low tech DIY emergency rudder, with downloadable instructions .. Alan Hebert. 10 minutes (Confirmed)

Presentation of WindPilots emergency rudder system, with links, very quick…. Alan Hebert.. 5 minutes (Confirmed))

Scanmar Monitor sleeve and getting your autopilot to drive your e-rudder Brian Boschma. 10 minutes ( he volunteered!...but not confirmed yet)

Speaker: Scanmar Marine SOS rudder and Monitor attachment .. 10 minutes (not confirmed yet)

Approximately 35-40 minutes

Total: about 120 minutes

Discussion to follow…

=======================

Also possible, Chris Case with some video of his system, which instead of a cassette is a "rotate down" system like the Scanmar SOS rudder. I also hope to have some discussion about the Autohelm self steering system, and the Hydrovane as well. Both of them have appendages in the water which, depending on the boat, most likely can be used as emergency rudders.

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I should re-iterate, that this is a zoom meeting, with a moderator. While I don't want to stop discussion, there's a lot to get through and even two hours is a LONG time for a Zoom meeting.  If someone participates, and goes on a rant about  ~whatever~ and starts taking too much time,  I or the moderator might mute you. Just be aware...

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no discussion of the drogue technique? I tested this on my Freedom 45 in preparation for the B1-2 and it works very well. 

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21 minutes ago, ryley said:

no discussion of the drogue technique? I tested this on my Freedom 45 in preparation for the B1-2 and it works very well. 

Plus for some of us, racing regs require us to carry them around...

Have I been carrying unnecessary weight this entire time?!?! That's at least 4 beers worth of lb-age...

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Only one SSS'er that I know of has even tried a drogue. I happened to be on board and while it might work fine in open water, where the boat was really moving, in close quarter, in light wind it didn't let us go to windward at all. We couldn't even get out of the channel.

I may be contacting a local retailer who markets the Fiorentino drogue system. Time is kind of tight, but I agree that it would be good to at least get the option visible.

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spoke to a skipper who had his son on board for a delivery from Oz to NZ and they lost their rudder, 45ft fin keeler. They tried for days to jury rig a rudder- floorboards, spin pole setups, drogues and in the end it was hopeless and they abandoned ship. Apparently it just flopped about aimlessly.  From that I worked out that you need a dedicated spare rudder with pintles etc on the transom all  ready to ship if youre serious.

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We rigged a drogue for our J/120 for Pac Cup 2014 and the inspector had us demonstrate using the drogue.  We passed his test!  That said, we added an SOS rudder before we departed for Hawaii and now we have a cassette e-rudder.  

The issue with the drogue was that it had to overcome the existing rudder and a J/120 has a not small rudder.  I felt like it would have worked better if the main rudder were gone.  We did have the attachment points of the drogue midships so the stern was free to rotate.  Seems like you could modify that location to allow the stern to rotate, but not too much.  I think the biggest challenge with a drogue is that it would be really hard to keep it going shorthanded.  

We did Pac Cup 2016 on Schumacher 28 with a cassette e-rudder.  The e-rudder was almost as big as the original rudder.  It wouldn't have been perfect, but we could have kept racing with that e-rudder.  To test it, we sailed off the dock at RYC out into the channel, sailed around, back to RYC and back to the dock.  Not much different than the real thing.

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1 hour ago, badia420 said:

For those of us in a different timezone could you please upload the recording of the seminar so we can view it later?

THX!

If that is not possible, links to the websites with information would be great!

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Our problem with the drogue was the testing environment.  We needed more boat speed and deeper water (we pulled up mud when we brought it back aboard).  I think it would be effective in the ocean at speed and I will still carry it, even though I have a cassette e-rudder now.

BTW, the drogue is a Burke Sea Brake.  Fiorentino produced a sea-test video which is worth watching, and they rated the Burke drogue higher than their own.

Since we post under our own names I'd rather continue this on our local forum.  This place can get weird.

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I agree with BobJ about having much discussion about this here on SA.  It only takes one jerk with a lack of judgement to turn it into a shitfest, and I am utterly un-interested in that.

 

I will post the ZOOM URL before the big day. Other than that, I'm not going to say much more, here.  There's someone in the SSS who is encouraging us to have some more information about drogues, so there's that.  More information is available at the Singlehanded Sailing Society forum, where you have to register and if you get out of control, we take steps to make sure that forum doesn't turn into this one.

 

All that said, there's nothing preventing someone from starting an Emergency Steering thread here on SA. This is a big forum with lots of knowledgeable people.  I'd contribute what I can.

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If you need an example, look at the 2021 TBF thread on the other board.  This place is pretty useless if you want a rational discussion to last more than a few posts.

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I might add that a google search turned up an SA thread about this topic, featuring a number of guys I know and knew...back in 2006.

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There was a boat (Prairie Voyager) that damaged her rudder about halfway across the Pacific in the 2000 Vic-Maui.  She managed to average 124 miles per day with the setup shown in the picture.  She did over 1100 miles with this setup.

 

pv_steerage_via_lines.jpg.abf202590e2b0c875ea0d1df9ef91c29.jpg

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On 1/21/2021 at 9:27 AM, BobJ said:

BTW, the drogue is a Burke Sea Brake.  Fiorentino produced a sea-test video which is worth watching, and they rated the Burke drogue higher than their own.

I have a Burke Sea Brake that I haven't gotten around to testing or using in earnest.  Can you post a link to the sea-test video?  I'd be interested in seeing it.  Thanks!

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On 1/20/2021 at 12:29 PM, toad said:

basically nothing is better than a spare rudder

that may be true, but I know of a J111 that had a spare rudder built. He lost the main rudder, put the brand new spare on, which promptly started to delaminate. As I recall, the skipper (solo) was able to motorsail most of the way back to newport.

Having a spare is only good if you can rely on it.

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18 hours ago, Ultraman said:

I have a Burke Sea Brake that I haven't gotten around to testing or using in earnest.  Can you post a link to the sea-test video?  I'd be interested in seeing it.  Thanks!

I think it's this video - they've done others for larger equipment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4l3CbgUCU8

Just below the video window is a link to the accompanying technical article.  If your Sea Brake is the same vintage as mine, note the need to better seize its large thimble.  The threads can break and it will fall out.  It is a poor shape and fit for that application.  Also, I added a couple feet of chain and a swivel to keep it below the surface at speed, and to keep it from tangling when it spins.

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49 minutes ago, bridhb said:

Where are all you all getting your hardware for a transom mounted blade? 

That will be covered in the seminar, though most of the craftspeople are Nor Cal folks, for obvious reasons.  You're welcome to attend!  I will be making available a write up of how I did my DIY blade and cassette.  My bade is hugely strong, though about 50% heavier than a Pro job...almost 35 pounds compared to more like 25 pounds.  If you don't want to, or can't attend the seminar,  everything in the DIY document is laid out, ad nauseum, in my thread on the SSS forum.

If you're in Florida, there are certainly commercial boat repair/carbon/foam/epoxy/fiberglass layup people around who can build you one.

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Obviously Rig-Rite sells rudder hardware.

https://www.rigrite.com/Hardware/Rudder_Hardware/RudderHardware_Main.php

But you don't have to buy stuff from them. On the low-tech side, "L-shaped" heavy aluminum or s.s. extrusions can be used for  gudgeons.   If you can weld, or have access to a welder, simple fittings can be made up.  Look in other places besides expensive marine retail joints for solutions. For example, this is a dock hinge, but a gudgeon/pintle arrangement is nothing but a hinge.  Bolt one fitting to a 2 x 6 mounted on the transom with DIY brackets, and bolt the other fitting onto your cassette and....

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Multinautic-Heavy-Duty-Floating-Dock-Hinges-Kit-19133/203676000

 

If you're going to DIY, think outside the Marine Retail store box. Honest truth is that you can make a "get yourself home" e-rudder out of Home Depot parts and $100 worth of stuff from a good metal warehouse... The fittings don't have to be stainless, unless you're cruising and carry the thing in salt air for years.  Fittings that go on the boat to hold brackets to last for years in the marine environment should be stainless, of course.

The Home Depot e-rudder solution will not be super smooth. It will look crude. It will be 50% or more, heavier than a beautiful carbon and foam job from a Pro, meaning that all-up it might be 60 pounds instead of 40.  If you're on a small boat...then 40 pounds instead of 20.   But you can build one that will steer your boat and get you home...and that 's absolutely true if you're racing somewhere where you have to go 50-100 miles to a good harbor, and not 1,000.

 

My only caveat to this is that if your boat is over 33, maybe 35 feet and 10,000 pounds displacement, and if you're going to go the DIY route,  Then you're going to have to really think things through,  particularly in terms of bolting stuff to a transom that's not designed for it.   That goes double if your transom is such that you have to use supporting rods extending off the transom to support a verticel mounting place for your gudgeons. If I had a boat that size, I would probably farm out some of the production stuff to welding pros.

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simple guide to making an e-rudder blade DIY that will work for a 25-32 foot boat <8500 lbs displacement (and probably larger).  You make it as long as you need to, get 3 feet of blade, or more, into the water. My blade is about 6 feet long for my 26 footer.  It has a 12 inch chord (front to back)...close enough.  My rudders profile is 85% of the area of my One  Design rudder.  I would suggest trying for something that's around 75% of your regular rudders area.

 

1. buy dry 2 x 4s.  Straight grain douglas fir is best of course.  If you buy Home Depot lumber, know  how long your rudder needs to be before you go in, and make sure to get stuff that is knot-free for that length. If you buy Home Depot lumber, it will be wet, so store it somewhere to dry out for a couple of months. The straighter stuff you can buy, the better. Little warps are OK, you'll be removing wood, but big warps are not.

2.  You might run your 2 x 4 sections through the table saw to get a clean, raw edge. Just take off 1/8th of an inch. Stock 2 x 4's are not two inches thick by 4 inches wide, right?  If you have a little boat, you can probably get by with a rudder that has a 10-inch chord. If you have a big boat, maybe you want 12 or 14.  How many pieces do you have to lie down next to each other, to make a single board, that wide?  OK, so prep that many boards.

3. Glue the boards, edge to edge with PL Premium, polyurethane construction adhesive. The stuff is stupid strong, cheap, and waterproof.pl-premium-tube.jpg?width=500&height=500

Do not skimp on the adhesive.  It should smush out kind of a lot, everywhere along the joints when you squeeze the pieces together.  You can cut the excess off, later.   Clamp, or use a mess of straps if you don't have clamps, to squash everything together and then go away for 8 hours.

 

4. This is a NACA 0015 foil shape.
OS1015_A00.png

Use a hand plane, drawknife, surform plane...whatever you got, to form the underwater part of the blade into that shape. This is a DIY emergency rudder. It is not your racing rudder. How many hours do you want to spend at this?    It does not have to be perfect. If you round off the front and taper the back half, you'll be better off than having a flat board.  Do you need to foil-shape the part of the rudder that won't be in the water?  No.

5. belt sand it smooth. Tidy up the bottom as best you can. Remember that the bottom, aft "corner" of that rudder is vulnerable to getting smashed, so you might want to round it off.

6. Pre-coat with epoxy so that the wood won't soak up everything you use to stick down the fiberglass cloth and starve the bond. You can use any of the commercially available marine epoxies for this. I happen to use this stuff. Give it half an hour to soak in.

https://www.tapplastics.com/product/fiberglass/epoxy_resins/tap_marine_grade_epoxy_system/27

7. lay on heavy biaxial, or Knytex (biaxial cloth stitch to mat) or even better, triaxial cloth. Home Depot doesn't sell this stuff, but TAP plastics does as well as Jamestown distributors or any of several online fiberglass places. Invest in one of those little teflon/plastic laminating ridged rollers. They're cheap.  TAP plastics sells 'em. Roll the snot out of it, make sure every bit of the fiberglass is wetted out, and stuck down. Don't stress over the raw edges of the 'glass that stick out past the edges of the wood and don't stress that you can't get it to stick to the very top and the very bottom of the rudder. Don't roll so much that you shred the 'glass cloth, but get it stuck down there.

8. Go away until it's not tacky any more.


9. slap some epoxy and light cloth on the bottom...just enough to seal it.  Maybe the top, too.  It doesn't have to be strong, here.  Go away until it's not tacky any more.

10. cut off the flash (the extra hardened cloth that's hanging off the edges) cut out any bits that fucked up and lifted while it was kicking off.

11. cut up some glass cloth into random bits, or use some mat and make a fiberglass/epoxy mush. smoosh it on any parts where you had to cut away cloth that didn't bond to the wood. If this is half the rudder, you're fucked, start over again at step 1. If it's 3-4-5 quarter-sized places, carry on. Let it all kick off for a day or two.

12. sand to smooth with a random orbital sander and maybe 150 grit, or just by hand with a piece of board backing the sandpaper. Remember, this is an EMERGENCY RUDDER and the NACA foil shape is very much less than perfect. Do not compromise the fiberglass skin you put on. Just get it so there aren't any moon rocks on there.

You're done. You'll probably get a coat of paint on it later. You might make a cassette, you'll probably make gudgeons and pintles...but how you use the blade is up to you.  You can probably make this blade in about 20 hours worth of work. If your time is worth $25 an hour, that's $500. What would a pro-made blade cost?  Will this be as smooth and as perfectly NACA-shaped as a pro blade? No. Will it be as strong as a vacuum bagged, all-carbon blade? No, though a wood core is a LOT stronger than a foam core, so it's not THAT far off. Will it be heavier than a pro-made vacuum-bagged blade? yes....but how much?

 



 

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2 hours ago, Alan H said:

That will be covered in the seminar, though most of the craftspeople are Nor Cal folks, for obvious reasons.  You're welcome to attend!  I will be making available a write up of how I did my DIY blade and cassette. 

Thanks Alan, will definitely check out your write up.  Always assumed "rigrite" was dingy hardware but your link has stuff for J-30's.  My boat is an older Dehler 34.  It is less than 10k # displacement, but probably not by much.  It has a "back porch" style transom with the lower portion being a section perpendicular to the waterline that may be tall enough to mount the rudder.  The backstay attaches to two padeyes in this section.  The windvane mounts for the windpilot brand mount to the "deck" of the back porch.

Just dreaming to have to need something like that now.  Thanks for posting this information.

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On 1/23/2021 at 10:07 AM, BobJ said:

I think it's this video - they've done others for larger equipment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4l3CbgUCU8

Just below the video window is a link to the accompanying technical article.  If your Sea Brake is the same vintage as mine, note the need to better seize its large thimble.  The threads can break and it will fall out.  It is a poor shape and fit for that application.  Also, I added a couple feet of chain and a swivel to keep it below the surface at speed, and to keep it from tangling when it spins.

Thanks for posting this video.  It was a lot to get through (requires many pauses to read and ingest all the information) and they don't actually make a recommendation, but gives lots of data to help decide what to buy/use/justify your decision.  I think that on the performance:cost ratio the Burke Sea Brake performed pretty well.  Although anytime you need to deploy a drogue I am not sure you'd be too concerned about the cost!  Kinda like a liferaft...

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On 1/20/2021 at 12:09 PM, Roleur said:

We rigged a drogue for our J/120 for Pac Cup 2014 and the inspector had us demonstrate using the drogue.  We passed his test!  That said, we added an SOS rudder before we departed for Hawaii and now we have a cassette e-rudder.  

The issue with the drogue was that it had to overcome the existing rudder and a J/120 has a not small rudder.  I felt like it would have worked better if the main rudder were gone.  We did have the attachment points of the drogue midships so the stern was free to rotate.  Seems like you could modify that location to allow the stern to rotate, but not too much.  I think the biggest challenge with a drogue is that it would be really hard to keep it going shorthanded.  

We did Pac Cup 2016 on Schumacher 28 with a cassette e-rudder.  The e-rudder was almost as big as the original rudder.  It wouldn't have been perfect, but we could have kept racing with that e-rudder.  To test it, we sailed off the dock at RYC out into the channel, sailed around, back to RYC and back to the dock.  Not much different than the real thing.

Yah , if youre serious , build a cassette rudder system 

 

 

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On 1/23/2021 at 3:46 PM, Alan H said:

simple guide to making an e-rudder blade DIY that will work for a 25-32 foot boat <8500 lbs displacement (and probably larger).  You make it as long as you need to, get 3 feet of blade, or more, into the water. My blade is about 6 feet long for my 26 footer.  It has a 12 inch chord (front to back)...close enough.  My rudders profile is 85% of the area of my One  Design rudder.  I would suggest trying for something that's around 75% of your regular rudders area.

 

1. buy dry 2 x 4s.  Straight grain douglas fir is best of course.  If you buy Home Depot lumber, know  how long your rudder needs to be before you go in, and make sure to get stuff that is knot-free for that length. If you buy Home Depot lumber, it will be wet, so store it somewhere to dry out for a couple of months. The straighter stuff you can buy, the better. Little warps are OK, you'll be removing wood, but big warps are not.

2.  You might run your 2 x 4 sections through the table saw to get a clean, raw edge. Just take off 1/8th of an inch. Stock 2 x 4's are not two inches thick by 4 inches wide, right?  If you have a little boat, you can probably get by with a rudder that has a 10-inch chord. If you have a big boat, maybe you want 12 or 14.  How many pieces do you have to lie down next to each other, to make a single board, that wide?  OK, so prep that many boards.

3. Glue the boards, edge to edge with PL Premium, polyurethane construction adhesive. The stuff is stupid strong, cheap, and waterproof.pl-premium-tube.jpg?width=500&height=500

Do not skimp on the adhesive.  It should smush out kind of a lot, everywhere along the joints when you squeeze the pieces together.  You can cut the excess off, later.   Clamp, or use a mess of straps if you don't have clamps, to squash everything together and then go away for 8 hours.

 

4. This is a NACA 0015 foil shape.
OS1015_A00.png

Use a hand plane, drawknife, surform plane...whatever you got, to form the underwater part of the blade into that shape. This is a DIY emergency rudder. It is not your racing rudder. How many hours do you want to spend at this?    It does not have to be perfect. If you round off the front and taper the back half, you'll be better off than having a flat board.  Do you need to foil-shape the part of the rudder that won't be in the water?  No.

5. belt sand it smooth. Tidy up the bottom as best you can. Remember that the bottom, aft "corner" of that rudder is vulnerable to getting smashed, so you might want to round it off.

6. Pre-coat with epoxy so that the wood won't soak up everything you use to stick down the fiberglass cloth and starve the bond. You can use any of the commercially available marine epoxies for this. I happen to use this stuff. Give it half an hour to soak in.

https://www.tapplastics.com/product/fiberglass/epoxy_resins/tap_marine_grade_epoxy_system/27

7. lay on heavy biaxial, or Knytex (biaxial cloth stitch to mat) or even better, triaxial cloth. Home Depot doesn't sell this stuff, but TAP plastics does as well as Jamestown distributors or any of several online fiberglass places. Invest in one of those little teflon/plastic laminating ridged rollers. They're cheap.  TAP plastics sells 'em. Roll the snot out of it, make sure every bit of the fiberglass is wetted out, and stuck down. Don't stress over the raw edges of the 'glass that stick out past the edges of the wood and don't stress that you can't get it to stick to the very top and the very bottom of the rudder. Don't roll so much that you shred the 'glass cloth, but get it stuck down there.

8. Go away until it's not tacky any more.


9. slap some epoxy and light cloth on the bottom...just enough to seal it.  Maybe the top, too.  It doesn't have to be strong, here.  Go away until it's not tacky any more.

10. cut off the flash (the extra hardened cloth that's hanging off the edges) cut out any bits that fucked up and lifted while it was kicking off.

11. cut up some glass cloth into random bits, or use some mat and make a fiberglass/epoxy mush. smoosh it on any parts where you had to cut away cloth that didn't bond to the wood. If this is half the rudder, you're fucked, start over again at step 1. If it's 3-4-5 quarter-sized places, carry on. Let it all kick off for a day or two.

12. sand to smooth with a random orbital sander and maybe 150 grit, or just by hand with a piece of board backing the sandpaper. Remember, this is an EMERGENCY RUDDER and the NACA foil shape is very much less than perfect. Do not compromise the fiberglass skin you put on. Just get it so there aren't any moon rocks on there.

You're done. You'll probably get a coat of paint on it later. You might make a cassette, you'll probably make gudgeons and pintles...but how you use the blade is up to you.  You can probably make this blade in about 20 hours worth of work. If your time is worth $25 an hour, that's $500. What would a pro-made blade cost?  Will this be as smooth and as perfectly NACA-shaped as a pro blade? No. Will it be as strong as a vacuum bagged, all-carbon blade? No, though a wood core is a LOT stronger than a foam core, so it's not THAT far off. Will it be heavier than a pro-made vacuum-bagged blade? yes....but how much?

 



 

The blade is simple 

the cassette and it’s attachment to the boat  are more  complex ...make it strong enough to handle substantial side loads 

the tiller also needs thought ... a block and tackle or autopilot attachment.. or you will be on your knees  hand steering for the next thousand miles 

The blade length is typically the length of your longest bunk   

optimum foil shape is insignificant 

A cassete rudder will be unbalanced  when mounted perpendicular to the waterline  , angle the blade tip forward when mounting the cassette  to give some balance and make the tiller  easier to steer 

 

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Honestly, really love everything you just said. 

This unit of measurement;

On 1/27/2021 at 1:16 PM, slug zitski said:

The blade length is typically the length of your longest bunk   

This accurate specification;

On 1/27/2021 at 1:16 PM, slug zitski said:

The blade is simple 

And of course the absolute acknowledgment that you are most likely crapping your pants when put in a situation when an e-rudder is a necessary item;

On 1/27/2021 at 1:16 PM, slug zitski said:

 optimum foil shape is insignificant 

 

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Um.... poring over Slug's post....

There's some truth, like having the cassette and the attachment points being very strong.  You bet.

There's some oversimplification, like "the length of your longest berth?" .. Kind of depends on how the boat is laid out, how much freeboard you have and so on.

Foil? well..... why not just carry a Home Depot bought,  berth-length-long  2 x 10 to steer the boat with?   Is having the perfect foil vitally important?  Probably not. If you can have some sort of foil, and get it some sort of faired-out, is it worth the work?  I'd say yes.  If the most you'll have to sail to get to a safe port is 20 miles, is this a big deal?  No.  If you have to sail 1,000 miles is it a big deal?  Well, it's a lot BIGGER deal.

I'm not sure how a tackle arrangement  to the rudder makes the boat able to steer itself.

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I have done a bunch of Jordan series drogues with an aft section that is detachable with perhaps 50 to 100 cones.

Key is bridle legs to midship. and reduced tail weight if conditions warrant.

Andrews 70 and Gran Soleil 50 used to satisfy emergency steering device requirement for TransPac and Pacific Cup.

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On 1/29/2021 at 4:38 PM, Alan H said:

Um.... poring over Slug's post....

There's some truth, like having the cassette and the attachment points being very strong.  You bet.

There's some oversimplification, like "the length of your longest berth?" .. Kind of depends on how the boat is laid out, how much freeboard you have and so on.

Foil? well..... why not just carry a Home Depot bought,  berth-length-long  2 x 10 to steer the boat with?   Is having the perfect foil vitally important?  Probably not. If you can have some sort of foil, and get it some sort of faired-out, is it worth the work?  I'd say yes.  If the most you'll have to sail to get to a safe port is 20 miles, is this a big deal?  No.  If you have to sail 1,000 miles is it a big deal?  Well, it's a lot BIGGER deal.

I'm not sure how a tackle arrangement  to the rudder makes the boat able to steer itself.

Length ... The cassette consumes 1 foot of blade

... if this  cassette is mounted at the transom chine , you loose another foot before blade immersion 

On most boats you can’t steer the cassette,   you must steer the blade... one  more foot lost above the  cassette for a tiller attachment to the blade 

Now a minimum of three feet of your blade is not in the water steering the boat  

without a block and tackle how will you control the tiller on the pictured , typical cruiser racer ? 

The only practical  way to store the blade is inside the boat , alongside a bunk ...typically the longest straight run on a boat interior 

any blade longer won’t fit inside the boat and any blade longer than perhaps 7 or 8 feet would be impossible to manhandle , insert into the cassette,  at sea  

something like 40 percent of the ships rudder blade surface area  , depth,  is needed for an effective emergency steering 

The Hydrodynamic efficiency of the blade and  tip is insignificant ... robustness, lightweight  and ease of insertion  Into the cassette is critical 

contact any naval architect and they will. Supply a generic cassette rudder design, including materials list and details ,  for your size boat at a reasonable fee 

the side load on a rudder, the cassette  is huge..   ... the bigger the blade the bigger the load

the calculation is boat speed , rudder surface  area ...with the rudder turned 90 degrees to water flow 

 

AAAA2A2C-773B-403B-8D80-C7F565B450C5.png

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1.) My cassette is taller than one foot.   2.) I know people who store their rudder suspended under the overhang of the quarterberth.

 

3) "without a block and tackle how will you control the tiller on the pictured , typical cruiser racer ?  " I have an S2 7.9. and the stern of that boat is nothing like what you just pictured.  My friend Hedgehog has an Olson 29, again...with a transom nothing like what you have pictured.  Bob J. on this forum has an Alerion 38, once again with a transom utterly unlike what you have pictured. All three of us have emergency rudder setups with do not use a block and tackle arrangement to steer the boat.  in fact, they're set up to be steerable by a tiller pilot.   I have another friend with a Wilderness 30.  His system doesn't use a block and tackle, either.  I know a guy with an old two-tonner, a bigass boat. No block and tackle.

.

.

.

A lot of what you say is correct for SOME boats, and a lot of it is true for all boats, like  the following....

the side load on a rudder, the cassette  is huge..   ... the bigger the blade the bigger the load

the calculation is boat speed , rudder surface  area ...with the rudder turned 90 degrees to water flow  

. But you are presenting your views of how to design an emergency steering system to e-steer ONE boat, to ALL boats and that's just not right.  As an illustration, here is WindPilots commercially available system, which in fact would work on the boat you have pictured and defies almost every single thing you wrote.

DSC01957.jpg

Now, enough of this

 

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Looks good at the dock

at sea , With that  extreme aft raked angle of attack the boat will be very difficult to steer.. perhaps impossible 

the rudder must be perpendicular to the waterline 

the emergency system must function under sail ... upwind , downwind and in a seaway 

 

B1C55451-4CD7-422E-9044-144D59E7F155.png

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People forget that the rudder,  plus the keel , form lateral resistance that  allows the boat to track in a straight line 

if you remove your rudder, the aft lateral  resistance , your boat will spin like a top around the keel axis 

Therefore the emergency rudder must ... provide sufficient lateral resistance to track the boat and allow you to deflect the bow

naval architects tell me that this requires a minimum of 40 percent of the wet surface area of the  original ships rudder 

a rudder must be wet to work 

the pictured raked  rudder has already lost 20 percent of is bite because it is dry 

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4 hours ago, slug zitski said:

 

the pictured raked  rudder has already lost 20 percent of is bite because it is dry 

More hogwash.

An e-rudder won’t have to  deal with the same heel angles, speed, lack of balanced sailplan nor will it need to keep as accurate a course as the original rudder. It can be severely compromised and still get the job done as long as it’s strong enough and capable of being rigged in gnarly conditions.  

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What a Bunch of dogs 

 

And either Move on , sober up ..or you will pollute this emergency steering thread 

this thread is about transom hung emergency rudders 

.... the smallest possible rudder needed to effectively sail your boat after the  primary rudder has been eliminated 

 

A  conventional spade rudder   uses  end plate effect ... the interface between the top of the rudder and the hull ...to keep water flowing over the rudder blade ,  developing maximum lateral resistance and steering force 

this endplate  is missing on a transom hung rudder 

to  compensate for end plate loss , reduce ventilation  and develope sufficient lateral resistance,  the emergency rudder must be mounted perpendicular or tip forward and be mounted as close as possible to the transom knuckle 

The cavitation plate option  , if mounted  on the emergency  cassette rudder blade ... can’t pass thru the cassette 

On some transoms profiles it may be possible to add a cavitation plate to the bottom edge of the steering cassette 

 

 

A022F55C-71B7-47BE-AAC0-56CC1E4CF166.png

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13 hours ago, slug zitski said:

What a Bunch of dogs 


 

You think that diagram is an accurate depiction of flow around a transom hung rudder? Really?

You should look back there sometime before you start calling us names.

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13 hours ago, slug zitski said:

What a Bunch of dogs 

 

And either Move on , sober up ..or you will pollute this emergency steering thread 

this thread is about transom hung emergency rudders 

.... the smallest possible rudder needed to effectively sail your boat after the  primary rudder has been eliminated 

 

A  conventional spade rudder   uses  end plate effect ... the interface between the top of the rudder and the hull ...to keep water flowing over the rudder blade ,  developing maximum lateral resistance and steering force 

this endplate  is missing on a transom hung rudder 

to  compensate for end plate loss , reduce ventilation  and develope sufficient lateral resistance,  the emergency rudder must be mounted perpendicular or tip forward and be mounted as close as possible to the transom knuckle 

The cavitation plate option  , if mounted  on the emergency  cassette rudder blade ... can’t pass thru the cassette 

On some transoms profiles it may be possible to add a cavitation plate to the bottom edge of the steering cassette 

 

 

A022F55C-71B7-47BE-AAC0-56CC1E4CF166.png

Are you on drugs?

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I know the credentials of some posting in this thread.  One of them has built dozens of emergency rudders of various types, including two for me.  Both work quite well.

I don't know who Slug Zitski is.  Perhaps he'd like to share his credentials for designing and building emergency rudders.  Otherwise, see the last sentence of post #12.

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No Slug,  the thread is not about transom-hung emergency sailing rudders.

It's about a seminar about EMERGENCY STEERING to get shorthanded boats across 1,000 miles of ocean in an upcoming race.  ONE way to do that is with a transom-hung emergency rudder. In fact most of the participants will have some variation on that. However, some participants will probably have this.

d14bae_a9874d982c884bc589f38d1382f51706~.

and pretty surely one participant in the race will surely have this.

Hydrovane1.jpg

 



 

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As Bob J predicted, the thread has turned into something I never intended it to be. Let's see if I can close it down. Pity, it'd have been. nice to be able to put the Zoom URL in here for folks who wanted to participate.

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10 hours ago, Alan H said:

No Slug,  the thread is not about transom-hung emergency sailing rudders.

It's about a seminar about EMERGENCY STEERING to get shorthanded boats across 1,000 miles of ocean in an upcoming race.  ONE way to do that is with a transom-hung emergency rudder. In fact most of the participants will have some variation on that. However, some participants will probably have this.

d14bae_a9874d982c884bc589f38d1382f51706~.

and pretty surely one participant in the race will surely have this.

Hydrovane1.jpg

 



 

The hydrovane rudder is very small 

to work it requires that  the vessels  primary rudder generate lateral resistance  and be locked in place 

you will have problems if the hydrovane  is the only rudder available 

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16 hours ago, Alan H said:

As Bob J predicted, the thread has turned into something I never intended it to be. Let's see if I can close it down. Pity, it'd have been. nice to be able to put the Zoom URL in here for folks who wanted to participate.

I am interested in the Zoom link.  Is the date still Feb 24th?  

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On 2/3/2021 at 6:42 PM, Alan H said:

As Bob J predicted, the thread has turned into something I never intended it to be. Let's see if I can close it down. Pity, it'd have been. nice to be able to put the Zoom URL in here for folks who wanted to participate.

Almost every thread on SA gets sideways with opinions but there are nuggets of good info in them all.  Hopefully the emergency rudder zoom session will be recorded and the video made available for interested parties to watch after the fact. 

I think what Slug is suggesting is a system that will work well, not just something to meet the race requirements or work in a pinch.  Yes, obviously there are many options to emergency steer a boat.  But what if they limit how effectively a boat can be sailed.  This may be important if you have 1,000 miles to go and only x-days of food and water on hand.     

If I needed an emergency rudder I would want one that not only steered the boat but allowed me to make reasonable speed with ease of control to get safely back to land.  Slugs comments regarding transom hung emergency rudders make sense to me.   

If drogues get discussed in the Zoom meeting -------  Maybe I am wrong but I would think your ability to maintain speed through the water with a drogue would be less than if you had a properly designed emergency rudder.   Anyone have thoughts on this?   They definitely seem easier to deploy and store below.

Side note -- I would think you would want the cassette installed before departure.  If not the cassette should be easy to install when the boat is out of control in conditions that caused a rudder failure.  It will probably be hard enough just to slide the rudder blade in.   

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Where are all you all getting your hardware for a transom mounted blade? 

Either off the shelf 1/2" for the small boats or custom stainless or composite depending on the needs.

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Turns out that I will not be the Zoom admin for the presentation. If it's recorded and I get the download URL afterwards, I'll put it here.

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We had an interesting discussion with a Pac Cup inspector last week.  He mentioned that all of the e-rudders that has been used for real needs in Pac Cup had failed and maybe a drogue wasn't such a bad option after all.  Interesting thought...

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5 hours ago, Roleur said:

We had an interesting discussion with a Pac Cup inspector last week.  He mentioned that all of the e-rudders that has been used for real needs in Pac Cup had failed and maybe a drogue wasn't such a bad option after all.  Interesting thought...

Depending on the boat and conditions you might  have 3000 kg of side force on the emergency rudder as you slide down a wave sideways 

engineer the cassette to be very robust

engineer the tiller head to be very robust  

Leaf spring Stagger the Unidirectional laminates in  the blade to reduce point loads at the cassette 

 

pay at attention to blade ventilation 

when in doubt hire a naval architect , they have many off the shelf  designs 

 

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20 hours ago, Roleur said:

We had an interesting discussion with a Pac Cup inspector last week.  He mentioned that all of the e-rudders that has been used for real needs in Pac Cup had failed and maybe a drogue wasn't such a bad option after all.  Interesting thought...

I'd be curious to know if the blades failed, or the cassettes....or the tiller attachment, or the mounts to the boat.

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I see that the 3-Bridge Fiasco awards meeting and the Corinthian race skippers meeting has been scheduled for Wednesday February 24th. I'm not ready to put this thing on earlier than that, and delaying it much more renders it pretty useless in terms of providing actual information for skippers to use to plan their system for 2021. I just don't want to go back to everybody who was going to participate and try to find another date so I'm just going to cancel it. The video from the last activity is available,  and tons of information from past seminars is available on the SSS website.

Emergency Rudder Seminar is cancelled!  That doesn't mean that this thread on emergency steering has to stop, of course.

carry on!

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Emergency Rudder zoom meeting is cancelled?? I was really looking forward to that. I have a S2 9.1 (30 feet, 7880 lbs, outboard rudder) I am planning to do the Bermuda 1-2 in  June. I have a couple small projects to do before then but the emergency rudder is the last major one;.

The image below illustrates the only idea I could come up with. It would be constructed with carbon fiber tubes, epoxy and some kind of filler. (I am use to using coosa composite, s o that will be the filler.) The pivot will have a frame and be placed inside and secured to the pushpit.

EmergencyRudder.jpg

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rmgeis, your boat is the big sister to mine.  If you go visit the SSS forum, at www.sfbaysss.org/forum. and look in the TransPac 2020 sub forum, you will see my preposterously long thread about preparation. Look through it. It has a blow-by-blow account of how I made an emergency  rudder from wood core,  covered by fiberglass. It goes into a plywood and 2 x 4, screwed together  cassette. The e-rudder is in the first 5-6 screens of the thread.   The cassette is wrapped with 4 inch glass tape and linear carbon fiber.  You can see how I did the gudgeons, there.  This picture, taken part-way through attaching the gudgeons, gives you the idea.

attachment.php?attachmentid=5028&d=15785

 

That whole thing is covered with a layer of glass tape and then a crapload of carbon fiber.

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