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Seems top rumor is that a battery broke free and then broke thru the hull.   That could be best case if the projectile missed major structures and broke thru the hull where there was skin only.  If that's the case, then their biggest problem will be sorting our the electronics.   And getting an afterward with better foiling experience....

 

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The batteries or whatever was after the event.

We can clearly hear Goodison say it's a high risk move but Hutchinson doesn't comment and they go for it. The runner is still tight and once they bear away there is no way to avoid a capsize in those conditions. Doesn't look like damage which can be patched up quickly so maybe they'll aim for the repechage rather than try and get back too early.

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Batteries thrown forward by impact seems a plausible explanation. Caused by a totaly irresponsible helmsman who, despite the warnings of his crew,

decided to go for the most difficult manouvre on a foiling AC 72 in a 20+ knts gust. Only if he had stay calm and defended the last leg to the finish.

A

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38 minutes ago, Lynch said:

The batteries or whatever was after the event.

We can clearly hear Goodison say it's a high risk move but Hutchinson doesn't comment and they go for it. The runner is still tight and once they bear away there is no way to avoid a capsize in those conditions. Doesn't look like damage which can be patched up quickly so maybe they'll aim for the repechage rather than try and get back too early.

What?  They didn't come with a back-up hull?  This can hardly be considered GP racing. 

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31 minutes ago, Antoine31 said:

What?  They didn't come with a back-up hull?  This can hardly be considered GP racing. 

They do, except its currently sitting completely stripped in a warehouse somewhere in nz

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The Key is Barkers stress levels. He clearly doesn’t deal with stress very well. Tunnel vision and “red mist” tends to take over in certain stressful times and he seems to make crucial mistakes at critical times. This is where the Olympians like Burling and Tuke, Goodson, Scott and Ainslie have the advantage. They’re trained to deal with pressure and it shows. You can clearly hear the communication lines on the INEOS boat as well as the Kiwi boat, always calm and positive. They’re able to stay calm under pressure and assess the situation, and make clear and calculated decisions where Barker gets excited his voice raises, and he just goes for whatever he has in front of him. 

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11 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The Key is Barkers stress levels. He clearly doesn’t deal with stress very well. Tunnel vision and “red mist” tends to take over in certain stressful times and he seems to make crucial mistakes at critical times. This is where the Olympians like Burling and Tuke, Goodson, Scott and Ainslie have the advantage. They’re trained to deal with pressure and it shows. You can clearly hear the communication lines on the INEOS boat as well as the Kiwi boat, always calm and positive. They’re able to stay calm under pressure and assess the situation, and make clear and calculated decisions where Barker gets excited his voice raises, and he just goes for whatever he has in front of him. 

I found it interesting listening to the onboard comms from the abandoned race. When things started to get frantic with the shifts and squalls, that is where you really see how well a team communicates. 

https://youtu.be/wS5KSBzBZ0w?t=1785

 

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1 minute ago, sailman said:

The level of anti-Barker here is impressive.  Did he piss that much in the Kiwi Wheaties?

It's mostly by some noobs that crawled out from under their stones just to be obnoxious trolls. Best is to just scroll on. As for our resident Deano critics, they usually contribute more or less reasonable posts about other subjects, and most of them are not really mean anyway (or at least we are used to them).

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7 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

It's mostly by some noobs that crawled out from under their stones just to be obnoxious trolls. Best is to just scroll on. As for our resident Deano critics, they usually contribute more or less reasonable posts about other subjects, and most of them are not really mean anyway (or at least we are used to them).

I have about 3 times more on ignore from AC Anarchy than all of the other sub forums combined.

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26 minutes ago, sailman said:

The level of anti-Barker here is impressive.  Did he piss that much in the Kiwi Wheaties?

WTF does Barker have to do with batteries anyway??

I thought you told them to go a little better than this for their battery banks??


731270.jpg

 

Did they say if the batteries are on the bottom of the bay?

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18 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Haha, I have noone on ignore, but I ignore some posters.

Cup before last i ended up having to scroll over half a page or more, easier just to block the repeat offenders and the socks.

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3 hours ago, AdB said:

Batteries thrown forward by impact seems a plausible explanation. Caused by a totaly irresponsible helmsman who, despite the warnings of his crew,

decided to go for the most difficult manouvre on a foiling AC 72 in a 20+ knts gust...

On the final mark rounding, while leading the race by an almost insurmountable lead.

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Hard to believe the battery mounts were not engineered to take full G-forces during sailing and also not break free to penetrate the hull in an inversion. FGS my 7 knot shitbox has 250lbs of batteries and they're secured against inversion, but a few minutes sulfuric acid raining down into the cabin would be a problem:o.

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What I find interesting is that I've already heard complaints from other boats (don't remember which ones) about having problems with the flight controls, the computers, the motors. the instruments and the hydraulics.  Now  think of all of those after a looong soak in salt water.

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Old boat builder saying “ if it breaks its too light, if it doesn’t break its too heavy”

Hull laminates are designed to withstand working loads plus a safety margin, the larger the safety margin the heavier the boat. 
No one to blame for this. 

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Rather than speculate perhaps better to listen to the Skipper & Executive Director, Terry Hutchinson in his 'solo' press conference. Fact is i respect people who 'face the music' and take responsibility

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Just watched the race on NBCSN (agree Ed that way too may commercials...wtf?).  It's worth watching in it's entirety.  Not sure wtf was going on at the start, but Dean sailed, up until that point, a very good match race.  And the runner?  

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9 hours ago, sailman said:

The level of anti-Barker here is impressive.  Did he piss that much in the Kiwi Wheaties?

No. He cried in them on national radio and TV. He was offered an off-water role within the team and he thought it was beneath him. (Not to mention he got smashed by his contemporaries from other teams and his own team mates at a key foiling event 6 years ago)

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10 hours ago, sailman said:
10 hours ago, sailman said:

The level of anti-Barker here is impressive.  Did he piss that much in the Kiwi Wheaties?

1 hour ago, NZL3481 said:

No. He cried in them on national radio and TV. He was offered an off-water role within the team and he thought it was beneath him. (Not to mention he got smashed by his contemporaries from other teams and his own team mates at a key foiling event 6 years ago)

Yup, Sure sounds like he did.

 

We can rip on Barker all day long but he's only part of the cog (a broken one) and only part of the problem, posts about recent olympians having tons or dialogue, never giving up, being present, always observing and staying cool is very true and this is definitely not being observed on USA. Can't completely blame Barker for what's going on the boat. That's leadership and the higher up's who decided who was going to do what on the boat, who gets to be on the boat, crew layout and job roles and they are the ones to blame and maybe too late to change. There's a slew of things that's being observed on Patriot that could be better. Goodison is all alone and not the boss, that's the dude staring down at a pedestal inside the boat who is in charge and staying quiet; is that being present and being on top of the game?

Maybe swap out Hutchison for a stronger grinder as it looks like they can't go without that grinder, make Goodison the tactician and give him rank above Barker. Hutchison can run the show from the RIB.  Right now it just doesn't look like a good formula onboard, not present and too old school like when Kostecki was on Oracle and then replaced. Ask Barker how that worked out for him, I think he felt the effects on that change up?

 

 

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9 minutes ago, spectator said:

Yup, Sure sounds like he did.

 

We can rip on Barker all day long but he's only part of the cog (a broken one) and only part of the problem, posts about recent olympians having tons or dialogue, never giving up, being present, always observing and staying cool is very true and this is definitely not being observed on USA. Can't completely blame Barker for what's going on the boat. That's leadership and the higher up's who decided who was going to do what on the boat, who gets to be on the boat, crew layout and job roles and they are the ones to blame and maybe too late to change. There's a slew of things that's being observed on Patriot that could be better. Goodison is all alone and not the boss, that's the dude staring down at a pedestal inside the boat who is in charge and staying quiet; is that being present and being on top of the game?

Maybe swap out Hutchison for a stronger grinder as it looks like they can't go without that grinder, make Goodison the tactician and give him rank above Barker. Hutchison can run the show from the RIB.  Right now it just doesn't look like a good formula onboard, not present and too old school like when Kostecki was on Oracle and then replaced. Ask Barker how that worked out for him, I think he felt the effects on that change up?

 

 

A latent, underlying factor in yesterday's crash was that AM were desperate for a win. I'm not convinced they would have made the same decision if they had 2 or 3 wins under their belt before yesterdays race.

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1 hour ago, NZL3481 said:

A latent, underlying factor in yesterday's crash was that AM were desperate for a win. I'm not convinced they would have made the same decision if they had 2 or 3 wins under their belt before yesterdays race.

First of all, It was terrible to see the accident and damage; I hope they can get it fixed very soon, back up and running well. 

If what you said is true, then that's not keeping a cool winning head, not sticking to all the the training they've done and racing procedures. The dialogue I was hearing was fairly vague and happening too late, and not giving enough time for crew or boat handling to keep up, the tactics showed this (not just that last rounding but also at the starts). They need to see much farther forward and have much earlier dialogue between themselves, help paint a clearer picture for Barker so he doesn't have to (its not an Etchell), he needs more spotters (remember he's driving a water ski boat at neck braking speeds); at those speeds how can you have just one person keep an eye on the other boat, the course and at same time deal with your own boats conditions,  tactics,  headings and then talk to skipper? it's easier said than done but the other teams seem to be doing it better. I don'y know, maybe I'm missing something?

It sucks for them and for this regatta, I do hope to see them stronger and kicking ass soon.

 

 

 

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It is interesting to listen to the press conference Terry H gave. He gives some very good explanations of what happened. First indication that the boat was holed was the panel that came off was floating by the boat. The explanation that the hole was slamming a flat surface against the water with the flexing breaking the panel off from the structure inside. Wouldn't that make the panel be inside the hull. Outside would suggest it was pushed from the inside. Like most things I am probably wrong. Sure was a wild ride. In a bare away with everything eased then a bullet hitting usually makes for a Oh Fuck move. 

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2 hours ago, BronzeWing said:

Wouldn't that make the panel be inside the hull. 

It's not going to break off cleanly in one go; it'll still be joined in some places and "flapping around" a bit. At the same time the boat's still moving quite quickly, so any part of it sticking outside the hull is going to get caught in the water, leading to the whole thing being ripped off.

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4 hours ago, spectator said:

First of all, It was terrible to see the accident and damage; I hope they can get it fixed very soon, back up and running well. 

If what you said is true, then that's not keeping a cool winning head, not sticking to all the the training they've done and racing procedures. The dialogue I was hearing was fairly vague and happening too late, and not giving enough time for crew or boat handling to keep up, the tactics showed this (not just that last rounding but also at the starts). They need to see much farther forward and have much earlier dialogue between themselves, help paint a clearer picture for Barker so he doesn't have to (its not an Etchell), he needs more spotters (remember he's driving a water ski boat at neck braking speeds); at those speeds how can you have just one person keep an eye on the other boat, the course and at same time deal with your own boats conditions,  tactics,  headings and then talk to skipper? it's easier said than done but the other teams seem to be doing it better. I don'y know, maybe I'm missing something?

It sucks for them and for this regatta, I do hope to see them stronger and kicking ass soon.

 

 

 

I agree with this totally. They need to re-think the afterguard configuration in terms of someone ALWAYS giving Barker clear and concise input/feedback. It was disturbing to hear Goodison speak out twice that the tack and bear away was the higher risk maneuver when you consider the bear away followed by jibe was lower risk and took them further down the track. It was like Barker and Hutchison did not even hear/acknowledge his concerns. Serious soul searching in order considering the stakes and the hole they have dug for themselves.

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If Barker was an American we'd be flipping all his negatives into positive comments about "never letting up" or "an ability to show emotion". But he's not. If he won more races, we'd be calling him an adopted son. 

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The hypothesis of the batteries sounds good to me. Cleary, the hull was broken from inside to outside (look at the pictures). But there is more than the hole, the damages are bigger. They say ten days before sailing again.
About the accident : we have seen exactly the same configuration in precedent America's cups with the catas, even with the big ones. But with a cat you have 2 hulls and things can't go so bad. These monohulls without a keel have absolutely no stability when the foils don't do their job. If you make an error there is no second chance.

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I don't buy that stuff about Olympic sailors being better at handling the pressure than others. Hutchinson, Barker and Goodison  are all internationally recognised sailors.

They should be able to deal with a rapidly evolving situation although at 40 knots you don't get much time.

Just watched TH in press conference and he was very good and dealt with all of the easy questions he was asked.

But... he's 52 so what is he doing as a grinder when his real skill is as a sailor/tactician/leader?

I wonder if the afterguard on AM will change in the next race they get to sail? 

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^ Hang on. He said he was in the loop giving his input, would over-rule any obviously dodgy decisions, but stated that the the right call had been made and furthermore trusted Goodison, Barker and Campbell 100%. Issue is? Oh yeah, they fucked up :D

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Terry was a good leader to face the press but there's some underplaying of the decisionmaking there. And he's wrong on the breakage, they're probably researching it themselves; the videos and pics I've seen (unless doctored) show breakage just before the crash landing.

Looking at the action, Barker/Hutchinson combo have made a number of mistakes over a bunch of races, and it doesn't sound like they are owning up to them. Hutchinson said in an earlier interview "all our decisions were logical at the time, and we'd take them again"; which is valid sometimes, but when you string a bunch of those you gotta re-evaluate your confidence.

Goodison is a moth world champ. This is a big moth. Give him a shot at the helm, or make him tactician.

 

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42 minutes ago, martin 'hoff said:

Terry was a good leader to face the press but there's some underplaying of the decisionmaking there. And he's wrong on the breakage, they're probably researching it themselves; the videos and pics I've seen (unless doctored) show breakage just before the crash landing.

........

I'm sure Terry didn't give a full explanation of the cause of the damage but the video and pics I've seen don't show breakage before the crash landing. Can you post, or give links to, the ones you've seen?

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3 minutes ago, marlowe said:

I'm sure Terry didn't give a full explanation of the cause of the damage but the video and pics I've seen don't show breakage before the crash landing. Can you post, or give links to, the ones you've seen?

The running theory is that the batteries came loose, and broke their seagull off which was then spotted before the big splash

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3 minutes ago, RMac said:

The running theory is that the batteries came loose, and broke their seagull off which was then spotted before the big splash

You forgot the part about the seagull leaving behind a bunch of yellow Ines when it broke off.

Seagull breaks off, boat suddenly slows, capsizing as a result. So it was the fight control system (aka speedo) that broke.

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There's no doubt AM had a terrible weekend.  Maybe it was poor preparation, bad luck, poor decision making or poor execution, the fact remains they were 0 fer for the weekend.  If this were baseball, there'd be a pitching change, if it were football, we'd be seeing a new quarterback and if it were hockey, the goal tender would  have been replaced already.  Something isn't working and AM needs to shake things up a bit, if for no other reason than to change the vibe on the boat.

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Rumour that a massive box full of the hydraulic fluid got loose and smashed through the hull; wonder why Skip just does not tell us and put us out of our misery.

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1 hour ago, kiwichas said:

Rumour that a massive box full of the hydraulic fluid got loose and smashed through the hull; wonder why Skip just does not tell us and put us out of our misery.

From the press release they just talked about the hull structure acting like a "cheese cutter" and punching out the hull on impact. I struggle with this as it is a very localized hull and this only occurred in one place. I wonder if AM is doing damaging control and there is either batteries or hydraulic fluid drum at the bottom of the bay that will cost them a pretty penny with environmental cleanup fine?

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15 minutes ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

if AM is doing damaging control and there is either batteries or hydraulic fluid drum at the bottom of the bay that will cost them a pretty penny with environmental cleanup fine?

It’s the only reason to question what he said but he looked blatantly honest throughout the presser

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3 hours ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

From the press release they just talked about the hull structure acting like a "cheese cutter" and punching out the hull on impact. I struggle with this as it is a very localized hull and this only occurred in one place. I wonder if AM is doing damaging control and there is either batteries or hydraulic fluid drum at the bottom of the bay that will cost them a pretty penny with environmental cleanup fine?

Yep, seems like either damage control or he simply didn't have all info on hand. But, lying to do damage control seems more likely, it really doesn't look like the home was made by water and internal structure, especially not when you look at the their own video that shows some guts looking at the panel that got punched out of the hull and bent at close to 90 degrees in the process, it's very visible and they basically say it's been hit from the inside. 

Not sure if it specifically a battery though, and if those only weigh 35kg or so, is that enough to do that damage? 

The onboard camerafeed cuts of very close to after they crash down I believe, maybe it simply lost power when the battery/batteries in their mount left the boat? Not sure if timing lines up there though? 

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31 minutes ago, Robin_sweden said:

Yep, seems like either damage control or he simply didn't have all info on hand. But, lying to do damage control seems more likely, it really doesn't look like the home was made by water and internal structure, especially not when you look at the their own video that shows some guts looking at the panel that got punched out of the hull and bent at close to 90 degrees in the process, it's very visible and they basically say it's been hit from the inside. 

Not sure if it specifically a battery though, and if those only weigh 35kg or so, is that enough to do that damage? 

The onboard camerafeed cuts of very close to after they crash down I believe, maybe it simply lost power when the battery/batteries in their mount left the boat? Not sure if timing lines up there though? 

 

4 hours ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

From the press release they just talked about the hull structure acting like a "cheese cutter" and punching out the hull on impact. I struggle with this as it is a very localized hull and this only occurred in one place. I wonder if AM is doing damaging control and there is either batteries or hydraulic fluid drum at the bottom of the bay that will cost them a pretty penny with environmental cleanup fine?

This was course A on the sparkling Waitemata not Area 51 did you see any oil anywhere why would Casper be spinning a yarn and for what purpose exactly crikey there are plenty of conspiracy sites out there maybe you guys are on the wrong forum some suggestions to set you on your way 9/11 truthers anti-vaxxers chemtrailers flat-Earthers Holocaust deniers and Sandy Hook Moon landing.....

Fill your boots boys.

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4 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

It’s the only reason to question what he said but he looked blatantly honest throughout the presser

Guy is dealing with 200 problems, and barely slept. I'd cut him some slack on not being at the absolute latest of the top breaking sleuthing. He probably knows by now. 

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4 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

Guy is dealing with 200 problems, and barely slept. I'd cut him some slack on not being at the absolute latest of the top breaking sleuthing. He probably knows by now. 

Agree,

I may not like how well the crew did on this last series of racing but you're talking about a guy/crewman who was on the boat during the crash, then immediately  had to do the salvage and is now responsible for creating and coordinating an almost insurmountable come back while at the same time coordinate a world record rebuild project on a cutting edge America's Cup boat under the clock and pundits expect him to stop and give them some detailed lip service? Give the guy some space and let him do his job, we'll eventually find out what the deal is. 

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On 1/17/2021 at 8:44 PM, DayTripper said:

Lucky it didn't happen in the environment, too.

Well, at first they were above the environment...and then the leeward runner didnt get blown, so they fell over onto the environment. And then the carboard derivates gave out and they were under the environment. Nothing is out there but sea and birds and fish..........and a really expensive battery kit..... and a drum of crude. 

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I watched the presser, and listened.

But looking at the replay it looks like the runners caught on main leach did the damage.

Many of us have had the same thing happen in a gybe,  a knock down results.

I think Terry is doing a great job covering for the crew who fucked up.

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5 hours ago, Strategery said:

Well, at first they were above the environment...and then the leeward runner didnt get blown, so they fell over onto the environment. And then the carboard derivates gave out and they were under the environment. Nothing is out there but sea and birds and fish..........and a really expensive battery kit..... and a drum of crude. 

 

....   is that typical ???

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It hasn’t been determined if the runner was on or off, the thing with these boats is they just don’t sail with eased sheets they are always on the wind so it just may be that there wasn’t the capacity in either the runner or the mainsheet for the ease required. 

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Look at Luna Rossa on the way downwind. Their leeward runner is way eased and flapping. it's either a design flaw or a fuck up on American magic

 

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2 hours ago, Redreuben said:

It hasn’t been determined if the runner was on or off, the thing with these boats is they just don’t sail with eased sheets they are always on the wind so it just may be that there wasn’t the capacity in either the runner or the mainsheet for the ease required. 

The runner was eased but clearly not enough. Terry indicated that that the runner was stroke limited which seems like a problem, but the bigger deal might be that he way Patriot is setup they do not have enough ability to ease the main both in leech tension and angle of attack. In every bit of racing that's been televised, the main trimmer has been been easing the traveler car to the end stop, and that's in normal sailing. In a critical dumping the main situation, they're already out of a-o-a ease, so have to dump the leech tension, so it seems insane that they can't dump it further due to the runner.  

It's odd too since Defiant's runners were 9mm Marlow Max 99 with a PBO cover, so it implies they were winched at some point?  Weird not to have a fuse if you're going all hydro. I mean, just imagine if you did a low speed bearway in a puff and had to really dump the main?

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As I pointed out earlier, if they had dumped the main any further, Deano would now come in two handy smaller packs for assembly.

I don't think the runner helped, but I don't think it was the only cause. But they do seem a bit dependent on getting through that bear away quickly. They should have thrown in a wing mark on some laps to force a slightly more rounded boat

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haha, good point about antitrusting DB... 

I think they have a real design flaw with their cockpits vs traveler. Clearly there are times when they want more traveler down, but can't because of the track, which is limited by the cockpits, which frankly seem less protected than NZ anyway so maybe that's two flaws.

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29 minutes ago, RMac said:

The runner was eased but clearly not enough. Terry indicated that that the runner was stroke limited which seems like a problem, but the bigger deal might be that he way Patriot is setup they do not have enough ability to ease the main both in leech tension and angle of attack. In every bit of racing that's been televised, the main trimmer has been been easing the traveler car to the end stop, and that's in normal sailing. In a critical dumping the main situation, they're already out of a-o-a ease, so have to dump the leech tension, so it seems insane that they can't dump it further due to the runner.  

It's odd too since Defiant's runners were 9mm Marlow Max 99 with a PBO cover, so it implies they were winched at some point?  Weird not to have a fuse if you're going all hydro. I mean, just imagine if you did a low speed bearway in a puff and had to really dump the main?

The answer is you simply can't do a low-speed bear away in a puff. It doesn't matter if the runners are there or not. If the apparent wind goes too far aft, you get overpowered and go over. This applies to pretty much any high-performance boat, ask a skiff or cat sailor how a low-speed bear away in 20kts goes.

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I noticed something very significant in Terry's answer to the question about the settings that were analyzed by the team after the incident at the time of the incident and tack bear away - I swear he said that the sheet position and traveler angle are predetermined and were set as they were intended to. 

So I have 2 really big comments to this and questions for the Forum.

1. Are they really using presets for each wind angle and velocity and how are they set (are they using AI?) or is a guy pushing a button, WTF? Does the system know they are doing a tack bear away in a rapid wind build? This seems like a classic human thing to say, for example, weight way back in this gnarly balck puff dropping down puff while we bear away and ease vang harder.....

2. Is this a way for Terry to deflect the obvious ----> whose the guy on the runner blame game by saying there were on the presets? 

BOTH? neither?

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2 hours ago, sailer99 said:

The answer is you simply can't do a low-speed bear away in a puff. It doesn't matter if the runners are there or not. If the apparent wind goes too far aft, you get overpowered and go over. This applies to pretty much any high-performance boat, ask a skiff or cat sailor how a low-speed bear away in 20kts goes.

Actually had the chance to chat with a world champ foiler about this, as I was on the wrong side of the "gybe or tack" argument after the AM capsize.  His thinking was that you either need a full speed bearway, or a gybe, doing the tack then right into the bearaway is going to be murder.  I asked again if you could tack, speed build, then bearaway and he said "sure, but you're going to sail a bunch of distance before you're at speed to bearaway, and the gybe is safer with apparent, plus it keeps you in that puff so once you're to speed you're gaining"

I think a lot went wrong in this, perfect storm puff plus boathandling plus decision making. All things considered, I'd rather have controls that can ease the runner out all the way. Traveler/Dean limit or not,  the runners hooking the main in all the shots and video.  The sail _above_  the runner is flat, but below the leech has a ton of flutter. Can't say it would or wouldn't prevent the capsize, but there are times they're going to have to bear away in breeze, and they can't feel good about how fast that limit was reached. 

Happily admit to being wrong about the tack, but I do think other boats have more traveler range, plus more main control.  I could see NZ's main being flapped way open up top and depowered down low in case they're ever caught out like this.  

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3 hours ago, Lynch said:

Look at Luna Rossa on the way downwind. Their leeward runner is way eased and flapping. it's either a design flaw or a fuck up on American magic

 

Heard on the commentary over the weekend that Luna Rossa wanted to ditch the runners altogether.  Apparently their data shows that they are not necessary to keep the rig in the boat, given the breeze is always forward of the beam.  Their request was denied - the rule says must have one set of runners; probably to avoid bendy rigs with multiple sets of runners/check stays.  Anyway that's why they don't seem to be tight.

My question about the rigs on the boats is that Ineos and the yanks seem to have sprouted a solid boom spar since Christmas.  Pretty sure there were no spars earlier, and Luna Rossa still appears to have their original main control set up without one.  Wonder what the Kiwis are doing.

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16 minutes ago, judge said:

My question about the rigs on the boats is that Ineos and the yanks seem to have sprouted a solid boom spar since Christmas.

Amway and the Frackers have always had a boom since day one.

Te Rehutai has no boom.

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14 hours ago, Redreuben said:

It hasn’t been determined if the runner was on or off, the thing with these boats is they just don’t sail with eased sheets they are always on the wind so it just may be that there wasn’t the capacity in either the runner or the mainsheet for the ease required. 

Were you watching the same clip? Look at the bear away and look at the leach. 2 sail syndrome all the way. It is ridiculously clear the leeward runner wasn't eased. The fact that the leach flutters yet the sail doesnt go out is a clear indication them mainsheet was eased (leach tension eases) but the boom no go outboard (blocked by the runner).

Case closed. 

As Warren Miller said, "If you cant fall off, you'll fall over" 

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The issue wasn't the runner. Even with the runner fully eased they would have gone over.

The problem was going from the slow speed into the mark rounding, As  they accelerated downwind, they went from a slow speed to very fast (I have read 45 knots), which meant the foils increased their lift (due to the higher speed) faster that the flight controller could adjust for it. At that point, easing the sail would have made the boat jump out more. On foilers, easing the sails unloads the foils and the bow rises, pulling in pushes the bow down (the exact opposite of a non foiling boat).  The boat got to a point where they had "lost" the foils, so it came crashing down, dramatically reducing boatspeed. With the loss of boatspeed, the apparent wind swung aft very fast. It was impossible to ease the sail enough - look at the length of the traveller. That is what pushed the boat over.

How can I be so sure? Because about 5 years ago, the A Class developed the traveller system from the traditional curved one that spans across the deck to a super short straight traveller. There is only one downside - exactly what happened to AM. I cannot count the number of capsizes that result from this very happening -the boat leaping out, slowing rapidly as it comes down and the wind swinging so far aft you cannot dump the sheet fast enough or the required amount.

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20 hours ago, astro said:

I watched the presser, and listened.

But looking at the replay it looks like the runners caught on main leach did the damage.

Many of us have had the same thing happen in a gybe,  a knock down results.

I think Terry is doing a great job covering for the crew who fucked up.

This. 

It pretty clear. You can see the leech flapping (the main got dumped for the bear away) before they turned down hard but the top of the sail couldnt go out (runner). Some are saying it was a low speed bear away that caused it, totally false. This was a wheelie wipeout caused by a super powered up leech. They actually had the angle on the bear away, they just got spun up. 

A good comparison is Luna Rossa's bear away where one can clearly see the runner flowing well aft of the boat. American Magic....not so much. 

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Strategery; in the press briefing Terry said it wasn’t clear if the runner was left on or was at the end of its scope. These boats aren’t set up for big eases as they are always on the wind. 
They might be now though !

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15 minutes ago, SimonN said:

The issue wasn't the runner. Even with the runner fully eased they would have gone over.

The problem was going from the slow speed into the mark rounding, As  they accelerated downwind, they went from a slow speed to very fast (I have read 45 knots), which meant the foils increased their lift (due to the higher speed) faster that the flight controller could adjust for it. At that point, easing the sail would have made the boat jump out more. On foilers, easing the sails unloads the foils and the bow rises, pulling in pushes the bow down (the exact opposite of a non foiling boat).  The boat got to a point where they had "lost" the foils, so it came crashing down, dramatically reducing boatspeed. With the loss of boatspeed, the apparent wind swung aft very fast. It was impossible to ease the sail enough - look at the length of the traveller. That is what pushed the boat over.

How can I be so sure? Because about 5 years ago, the A Class developed the traveller system from the traditional curved one that spans across the deck to a super short straight traveller. There is only one downside - exactly what happened to AM. I cannot count the number of capsizes that result from this very happening -the boat leaping out, slowing rapidly as it comes down and the wind swinging so far aft you cannot dump the sheet fast enough or the required amount.

Cool story bro.  Do you work for the leeward runner union or something?

Its no contest it was the lee runner! A tight lee runner is far more damaging than a short traveler. Of course, your A cat didnt have a lee runner so you're not really making the right comparisons. While your tiny traveler does make for similar situation to some degree,  the leeward runner clearly didnt let the top of the main spill out and she did wheelie. Finally, when she was on a beam reach, and the main still could not go out, she just flipped because there was not enough speed over the foil after the wheelie crash down. 

 

Capture.PNG

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13 minutes ago, Redreuben said:

Strategery; in the press briefing Terry said it wasn’t clear if the runner was left on or was at the end of its scope. These boats aren’t set up for big eases as they are always on the wind. 
They might be now though !

He's being nice, but trust me, the guy on the runner is gutted. He knows he boofed it. 

Look at the board tight runner on AM at the bear away, now look at the flowing lee runner on LR 40 seconds later at the same bear away. 

Capture2.PNG

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so many slow boat sailors with opinions. 

It's pretty simple to anyone who's sailed fast boats that tip over:

They went into a bear away down speed and tipped over. No surprise what happened next.

Except for the boat exploding and sinking, that was surprising.

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53 minutes ago, stinky said:

so many slow boat sailors with opinions. 

It's pretty simple to anyone who's sailed fast boats that tip over:

They went into a bear away down speed and tipped over. No surprise what happened next.

Except for the boat exploding and sinking, that was surprising.

For fucks sake,

The video shows clearly what happened.  The runner was snagged, have a fucking look again.  That is exactly what happens.  They needed to ease and they could not.

WTF is it with you people?

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48 minutes ago, stinky said:

so many slow boat sailors with opinions. 

It's pretty simple to anyone who's sailed fast boats that tip over:

They went into a bear away down speed and tipped over. No surprise what happened next.

Except for the boat exploding and sinking, that was surprising.

Yeah, except you're wrong. 40+ knots is not "down speed". It was the leeward runner stanky. It didnt let them get low enough, it made the bow jump and when they landed, it ultimately made them flip because the foil had no flow and therefore no lift based righting moment. 

Plenty of us have sailed really fast boats that tip over. Most of those boats dont have foils only and dont have runners.  

Capture3.PNG

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3 minutes ago, astro said:

For fucks sake,

The video shows clearly what happened.  The runner was snagged, have a fucking look again.  That is exactly what happens.  They needed to ease and they could not.

WTF is it with you people?

You do realise the boat had a fucking great hole in it before it tipped over? It wasn't going anywhere no matter what they did to the runner.

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4 minutes ago, BOI Guy said:

You do realise the boat had a fucking great hole in it before it tipped over? It wasn't going anywhere no matter what they did to the runner.

Did I just step through the Looking Glass?  Is this some kind of Post Truth thread?

There was no fucking hole in the boat when the runner was snagged, and the boat was doing 42 knots.

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On 1/18/2021 at 4:29 AM, spectator said:

First of all, It was terrible to see the accident and damage; I hope they can get it fixed very soon, back up and running well. 

If what you said is true, then that's not keeping a cool winning head, not sticking to all the the training they've done and racing procedures. The dialogue I was hearing was fairly vague and happening too late, and not giving enough time for crew or boat handling to keep up, the tactics showed this (not just that last rounding but also at the starts). They need to see much farther forward and have much earlier dialogue between themselves, help paint a clearer picture for Barker so he doesn't have to (its not an Etchell), he needs more spotters (remember he's driving a water ski boat at neck braking speeds); at those speeds how can you have just one person keep an eye on the other boat, the course and at same time deal with your own boats conditions,  tactics,  headings and then talk to skipper? it's easier said than done but the other teams seem to be doing it better. I don'y know, maybe I'm missing something?

It sucks for them and for this regatta, I do hope to see them stronger and kicking ass soon.

 

 

 

This guy speaks the truth.  The sad part is that it’s not a boatspeed problem,  it’s a personnel problem.  

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50 minutes ago, BOI Guy said:

You do realise the boat had a fucking great hole in it before it tipped over? It wasn't going anywhere no matter what they did to the runner.

The hole happened on the slam down. I see our Italian friends don't buy TH's explanation of the hole either, they also conclude that something heavy ended up on the sea floor. (although they could just be having a joke from reading SA).

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On 1/19/2021 at 7:05 AM, kiwichas said:

Rumour that a massive box full of the hydraulic fluid got loose and smashed through the hull; wonder why Skip just does not tell us and put us out of our misery.

Oil leak is unlikely.  Terry said it was sealed still.  Looking at people walking about on it I believe that.

Even a small amount of oil in the water and the boat would have made the recovery extremely difficult, no traction.  Was involved in a roll over and some two-stoke oil made life really difficult.

Batteries are a candidate for the hole but it is not impossible that the slam-down itself did it.  Looked to me like the rectangular shape meant that a patch between the reinforcing was punched in.  Terry used the term "Guillotined" and I can see why he said that.  Many tonnes of boat hitting the water flat in that section could do it.  They were not designed for that incident.

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"We knew that we were going to have a hard manoeuvre going round the top, that we needed to go around that mark. In the biggest puff of the day that was the only direction we could be going."

"When we did get round the top ...we didn't quite manage to get the rudder through that turn. On the [TV] replays you can see the rudder sink [and] at that point you don't really have any more control over the foils at all.

"No amount of minimum flap is going to bring the hull back down at that point [and] you're just waiting to see if you can get any grip on that foil at all to cushion the boat on the way down."

"flight controller Andrew Campbell"

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11 hours ago, astro said:

Did I just step through the Looking Glass?  Is this some kind of Post Truth thread?

There was no fucking hole in the boat when the runner was snagged, and the boat was doing 42 knots.

At least in some videos, it really seems to have a chunk falling off, and a hole, before it slams. Don't want to get too QAnon-crazy on this, I like factual discussion. @Mozzy Sails has a video capture showing it.

 

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Well, again I did a slowmo and zoom of the available bowsprit footage from America's Cup YouTube that the Italian guys used as well. Hoping to see some ejecta but was disappointed. The piece is clearly in the wake, and the the boat down before the carbon tendrils appear. The only strange timing I noted was the arm on that side was moving and stopped precisely when the tendrils appeared.

 

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3 hours ago, barfy said:

The only strange timing I noted was the arm on that side was moving and stopped precisely when the tendrils appeared.

That’s why I think there’s a strong chance AM is fucked. 
 

They may make it out for the two races on Jan 29 but if their replaced structure and systems are fully operational, and the problems found fixable overnight, it will surprise me.. LR (probably) needs only 4 wins. 

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I am generally of the opinion the boat did not pick up speed quick enough to match the wind. Even happens on slow boats. But what I am wondering, is what caused the hole. Batteries must withstand a 90 pound side pressure on most boats. I do not think that is applicable here. I would also think batteries would be stored down low. But good evidence would be to determine what is missing, or what has moved from its normal position. I wondered if a support arm for the foil was attached to the broken part. But pics show a fairly clean surface on the inside. There are major cracks emanating from the hole, so it is not a clean cut. And the hole appeared well before anyone could affect a cut. Did it break from impact when the bow came down, and waited a short while before leaving town. Or did something from inside bash it. I am not into all the other theories of runners, easing and so forth. However, if I lost the rudder at around 40 knots, I would imitate Admiral Shirley when she wiped at at 8.5 knots. And we did not put the mast in the water, just the boom and the chicken chute.

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

That’s why I think there’s a strong chance AM is fucked. 

The repairs look well under control technical skills and spares aren't an issue so rather than being a harbinger of doom why not wish them all the best the event needs Amway back.

am2.thumb.jpg.f29c53155d81773288615625e5f2360a.jpg.38bf03ffd7b7dc66cec59c4ca255e170.jpg

 

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