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I thinking of getting a small phrf to do some club racing, now that I'm not getting an escape pod ( beneteau 50)

choices santana schock 23 or a Range 23 FUN?

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2 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

I thinking of getting a small phrf to do some club racing, now that I'm not getting an escape pod ( beneteau 50)

choices santana schock 23 or a Range 23 FUN?

The R23 with tall rig (beachball?) in Annapolis was fast. Also R23 Rainbow won some stuff.

Schock 23s sink in Berkeley circle...

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39 minutes ago, jhc said:

The R23 with tall rig (beachball?) in Annapolis was fast. Also R23 Rainbow won some stuff.

Schock 23s sink in Berkeley circle...

I think OP is referring to the Fun 23 which was built by Ranger.  https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fun-23

Lightweight frac with retractable keel.  J/N design rather than the Mull designed Ranger 23 with fixed keel.

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You should look at the J 24. Ok in every wind speed. Can get you trophies in PH and when you get tired of the PH whinnying the is class racing. 

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13 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

I thinking of getting a small phrf to do some club racing, now that I'm not getting an escape pod ( beneteau 50)

choices santana schock 23 or a Range 23 FUN?

post-30927-1223953958_thumb.jpgpost-30927-1223954071_thumb.jpg

Those aren't terrible choices, I had a Santana 23 (the original daggerboard model) for about a decade and it was a great boat in many ways, good friend has a Ranger 23 Fun and I've sailed it many times.

Santana 23D is one of the best light-air machines ever created. In 6~7kt winds and flat water, it'll be going hull speed so the deciding factor is how badly you kill your speed in any maneuvers. It's small enough that a good crew can roll-tack it. Interestingly enough I also found it to be a decent heavy air boat, very wet and the steering got a bit frantic when the chop builds into real waves. It's steering is very sharp and responsive at all times, a lot of my friends who tried it simply did not like driving it because it has no interest in going straight and will follow your blinks as well as wanting to act like a soccer ball getting kicked back & forth in waves. One thing I really liked, the crew can be comfortable sitting out, the freeboard is enough that their feet don't drag in the water and the deck/gun'l is fine.

It's also a bit of a broach coach, I hauled the daggerboard all the way up for runs and the rudder half or 2/3 way up; but when the wind is up you should leave both down. It's not a planing hull shape and builds up a roaring wave train; won't really break free and take off.

The biggest problem with these boats (and why I sold mine) is that they were not build all that well and they're old. I did a small bit of structural work on mine, but the fiberglass-over-plywood deck is a time bomb. I also completely replaced the running rigging and most of the fittings/hardware; none of which is money you're ever going to get back. Check all the interior panels carefully because they're all structural: the primary bulkheads are right at the forward end of the daggerboard trunk. Mine were good but the 2ndary were going soft and I replaced/retabbed them.

IMHO it's also quite a good-looking boat

post-30927-1245071106_thumb.jpg

Now about the Fun 23.. a totally different boat but still a dinosaur from the same era. Considerably smaller-feeling, lighter, less freeboard, less genoa-driven, a feet-in boat. It's really like a big dinghy. IMHO the swing keel is more of a PITA with the crank, but Beneteau still uses the same system and for much bigger boats too. It doesn't really retract into the hull. The rudder is built into a block that lifts in/out of a well at the stern. The whole boat has the same issues of being old and not really built to last, my friend rebuilt the knees at the swing keel root, and much of the deck, as well as re-coring patches around all the hardware.

It's responsive but not squirrelly, one nice thing is that the helm doesn't change as much as the boat heels. There's feedback (which the Santana doesn't have much of) but it sails fine while heeling. The loads are much less on the sheets and on the whole rig, really. Unfortunately I don't have any good pics of my friends boat.

FB- Doug

..

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I always liked the Tripp 26. Never owned one, but they have beat me plenty.

 

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Find a boat good for the conditions you are in and that will be good in the division you will be put into.  The J22 and J24 are both very good all around boats with a crew of 3-5 people, 3 is all you need on the J22.

 

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16 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

I thinking of getting a small phrf to do some club racing, now that I'm not getting an escape pod ( beneteau 50)

choices santana schock 23 or a Range 23 FUN?

Yep, depends where you sail. Lots of good boats. If it is a cored hull get it checked out. Lots of these older boats have crap plywood laminated decks.

When I got my Zap 26, which is available, down below you could see the golden balsa core because the interior is not painted over. The underside of the deck was good with no signs of water intrusion. I had a friend who was a surveyor look it over and he said, Beautiful, 60k replacement value. That was about 7 years ago.

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1 hour ago, sailman said:

Find a boat good for the conditions you are in and that will be good in the division you will be put into.  The J22 and J24 are both very good all around boats with a crew of 3-5 people, 3 is all you need on the J22.

 

The days of sailing out of Mt Sinai harbor on  j-22, j30, j 37 are gone, The water down is shallow to say the least, so the 2 choices are to sail on the st Lucie river , a swing keel for where I'll dock it is a better choice , also easier to put on a trailer for a hurricane. Also looking at some 24 ft Tri's 

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7 minutes ago, Not for nothing said:

The days of sailing out of Mt Sinai harbor on  j-22, j30, j 37 are gone, The water down is shallow to say the least, so the 2 choices are to sail on the st Lucie river , a swing keel for where I'll dock it is a better choice , also easier to put on a trailer for a hurricane. Also looking at some 24 ft Tri's 

In that case go with a Morgan 24.  Good all around boat and designed for your area.  I have seen some with trailers too.

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7 minutes ago, sailman said:

In that case go with a Morgan 24.  Good all around boat and designed for your area.  I have seen some with trailers too.

we'll do, but haven't seen any down here?

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Not for nothing said:

The days of sailing out of Mt Sinai harbor on  j-22, j30, j 37 are gone, The water down is shallow to say the least, so the 2 choices are to sail on the st Lucie river , a swing keel for where I'll dock it is a better choice , also easier to put on a trailer for a hurricane. Also looking at some 24 ft Tri's 

F24 would be fun and great for shallow water.

Sailed on an F31R in the SB Channel once. Close reaching with the board up was a hoot.

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1 hour ago, Meat Wad said:

F24 would be fun and great for shallow water.

Sailed on an F31R in the SB Channel once. Close reaching with the board up was a hoot.

keep leaning to the corsair 27 /31 there's a few down here, Then again from the cover page Angry Red Planet, looks hot!

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2 hours ago, sailman said:

In that case go with a Morgan 24.  Good all around boat and designed for your area.  I have seen some with trailers too.

Cal Beggs's was for sail a year or two ago in CT - for how hard he raced that boat, it was in very good shape.

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1 hour ago, ROADKILL666 said:

I like the Santana 23 dk 

I had a Santana 23D for 14 years.

In flat water it is a killer. will sail under it's rating. Hates chop. Easy to trailer.

When I  donated the boat it was about 25% West epoxy. Not the best built boat I ever owned. 

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I have owned and raced a Fun23 for 15 years now.  I love the boat but don't be confused by the looks, it's no sportboat but it does live on the sportier end of leadmine and is good in light air.  Steam Flyer is correct that it comes with the baggage of a 40 year old mediocre build.  There were less than 100 built in the US and I know a few have been sent to landfills for good reason.  The hull is not cored but the deck is plywood cored so vigilance regarding leaks around fittings is important, I’ve been lucky that I’ve only had to re-core a 4 square inch spot.  There is 1 ring frame under the mast step.  Check that very carefully, if there is any sign of softness or rot, run away.  The other pain is the runners.  I actually put in new swept back chain plates so I could remove them.  It has a deck stepped pivoting mast so it is easily stepped by 2 people, I added and electric winch to my trailer so I can actually put it up and down alone.  The keel lift is also a bit of a pain.  I dry sailed it for 10 years, 72 turns down and 72 turns up, and is not well designed for maintenance.  I added a roller thrust bearing under the handle to help and frequent lubrication of the threads when it is on the trailer.

https://www.mcmaster.com/5909K36/?SrchEntryWebPart_InpBox=bearing

https://www.mcmaster.com/5909K63/?SrchEntryWebPart_InpBox=bearing

I also added a fixed sprit and asymmetric spin.  I took a 3 sec/mil hit but it was well worth it in my opinion.  There is no performance improvement but it makes sailing much simpler and safer.  Being the smallest boat out on Mass Bay sometimes makes the foredeck a little dicey, this way I never have to send my son up there. I race normally with 2 and occasionally with 3 which is plenty.  I will probably try some single handed racing this summer.  Just sailing single handed is very easy.  I usually use the 155 genoa up to 10 kts and then switch down to the 95% self-tacking jib. 

If shallow water is a problem, keep in mind that with the board down, the boat draws 5 feet, so it is deeper than a J22.  If the problem is just shallow at a dock, since the keel doesn’t retract into the hull it is still quite stable when the keel is retracted.

 

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I've raced both the Santana 23D and the Ranger 23 and they're both good choices. Doug's and Larry's descriptions are spot on.

The Ranger Fun 23 is a neat boat but pretty rare in the US. In 40 years I've seen just  one. IIRC it had a Soling rig to reduce costs. Solings were popular in Europe at the time and being produced in some volume.

The regular Ranger 23 is a better all around boat. With the tall rig it's good in light air, and it's really stiff anyway so will still stand up to a breeze. It's a good choice if you're shorthanded, w/o rail meat. It won't break free and plane, but it will surf a little.

If you're looking for a daggerboard for ramp launch, look into a B25 or S2 7.9, both proven for PHRF.

 

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56 minutes ago, LarryE said:
2 hours ago, ROADKILL666 said:

I like the Santana 23 dk 

I had a Santana 23D for 14 years.

In flat water it is a killer. will sail under it's rating. Hates chop. Easy to trailer.

When I  donated the boat it was about 25% West epoxy. Not the best built boat I ever owned. 

Yeah, but doesn't it point like bad bitch? By the last few years I had mine NOBODY would start in the spot on my windward hip

- DSK

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17 hours ago, Pointy End said:

L 22 I.jpg

I bought a Lindenberg 22 once, seller backed out at the last minute.

Bought the S23D instead

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If I could find a Tripp 26 for sale nowadays, I'd buy one. Slim pickings this winter

FB- Doug

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20 hours ago, sailman said:

In that case go with a Morgan 24.  Good all around boat and designed for your area.  I have seen some with trailers too.

ANDDDDDD  does great in phrf...maybe too great for some ;-)

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wavelength 24....

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Andrews 26

 

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I love my Capri 25.  We have had a lot of PHRF success over the last 4 years.  As with many of the suggestions here, my boat is old, 1984, and I have done a ton of work to make her reliable, comfortable and fast.  But she’s been a joy!

BB710474-44E0-4C70-86A1-B016CF78DFA6.thumb.jpeg.9b9722194dbee21e6325330d720dcc74.jpeg

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Can't say enough good things about the Dolphin 24, especially if you want shoal draft. It has a centerboard, but you can still sail with it up, unlike a swing/lift keel. My boat and the other Dolphin in our fleet are the only ones who can sail up the river to our mooring field while everyone else motors up the channel. It's a slower boat but the rating is extremely competitive. Plus it's a looker. I got talked into mine on a similar thread to yours over the summer.

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The Fun 23 is a GREAT boat...if you live in FRANCE...and like tippy canoes from the 80s...that suck in US PHRF...especially in chop and breeze.  I've owned and raced two of them. Both sucked.  I'm slow learner.  Went on to highly successful J22 PHRF racing. Loved it.  Of the two get the Santana 23 for frigging sure.

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1 hour ago, Sisu3360 said:

Can't say enough good things about the Dolphin 24, especially if you want shoal draft. It has a centerboard, but you can still sail with it up, unlike a swing/lift keel. My boat and the other Dolphin in our fleet are the only ones who can sail up the river to our mooring field while everyone else motors up the channel. It's a slower boat but the rating is extremely competitive. Plus it's a looker. I got talked into mine on a similar thread to yours over the summer.

I'll have one for sale at a good price in May...............

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1 hour ago, dacapo said:

I'll have one for sale at a good price in May...............

What's the year on it?

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11 minutes ago, Sisu3360 said:

What's the year on it?

1970. Hull #176.  

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5 minutes ago, dacapo said:

1970. Hull #176.  

AAC634E0-5D39-4579-8446-A6FE76B0AEE1.jpeg.d35e83823a7ba57db764ce1d94f3c2ef.jpegAAC634E0-5D39-4579-8446-A6FE76B0AEE1.jpeg.d35e83823a7ba57db764ce1d94f3c2ef.jpeg

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On 1/19/2021 at 10:48 PM, Jaded said:

You should look at the J 24. Ok in every wind speed. Can get you trophies in PH and when you get tired of the PH whinnying the is class racing. 

This is the correct answer. 

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6 minutes ago, number7of3 said:
On 1/19/2021 at 11:48 PM, Jaded said:

You should look at the J 24. Ok in every wind speed. Can get you trophies in PH and when you get tired of the PH whinnying the is class racing. 

This is the correct answer. 

Aftere five fuckeng poestes you dessearve waht kinde of respectte?

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1 minute ago, Snaggletooth said:

Aftere five fuckeng poestes you dessearve waht kinde of respectte?

The j24 is a great boat. 30 years ago it was a great one design. But now it's just a great casual sailboat for amateur racing. If you want to race on a budget, this is the boat to get. Not as nice as a thistle though. 

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5 minutes ago, number7of3 said:

The j24 is a great boat. 30 years ago it was a great one design. But now it's just a great casual sailboat for amateur racing. If you want to race on a budget, this is the boat to get. Not as nice as a thistle though. 

I cante aurgue withe that...................                  :)

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13 hours ago, number7of3 said:

The j24 is a great boat. 30 years ago it was a great one design. But now it's just a great casual sailboat for amateur racing.

Easy to sail to its rating, but you spend a lot of time in the 170+ fleet which is mostly aging cruisers with a few expensive sails. 

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My shins / knees hurt just thinking of J24.  Maybe a J80 OD at 114 might be more ergonomic..

Have fun! Sail safe!

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14 hours ago, number7of3 said:

The j24 is a great boat. 30 years ago it was a great one design. But now it's just a great casual sailboat for amateur racing. If you want to race on a budget, this is the boat to get. Not as nice painful as a thistle though. 

Fixed It For You.

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14 hours ago, number7of3 said:

The j24 is a great boat. 30 years ago it was a great one design. But now it's just a great casual sailboat for amateur racing. If you want to race on a budget, this is the boat to get. Not as nice as a thistle though. 

Or, you could stay home and beat yourself in the shins with a 2x4. All the pleasure of the same pain and none of the inconvenience.

Oops, I see slap beat me to it.....

19 hours ago, JimBowie said:

The Fun 23 is a GREAT boat...if you live in FRANCE...and like tippy canoes from the 80s...that suck in US PHRF...especially in chop and breeze.  I've owned and raced two of them. Both sucked.  I'm slow learner.  Went on to highly successful J22 PHRF racing. Loved it.  Of the two get the Santana 23 for frigging sure.

If there's a class, the J22 is a nice boat. I'd take one of those over the J24, definitely. Still not a very ergonomic boat. You could put a J22 inside the cabin of a Santana 23, though.

I had a bunch of people try to sell me a San Juan 21 on the same basis, but I could beat them under main alone, not get wet, and not need shin guards for the afternoon, either.

But seriously, does anybody know of a Tripp 26 for sale, or an Elliott 770, I'm even thinking of driving out to San Diego for that baby Tiger out there. My wife wants to take a long camper van trip.

FB- Doug

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15 hours ago, number7of3 said:

The j24 is a great boat. 30 years ago it was a great one design. But now it's just a great casual sailboat for amateur racing. If you want to race on a budget, this is the boat to get. Not as nice as a thistle though. 

But equally as uncomfortable, just in different ways!  I have scars from both!

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I can say that after racing a J/24 for years that they suck if your not the skipper or tactician. Of course, that’s my personal opinion. 
 

An ugly Merit 25 here would be able to clean up PHRF if the skipper wasn’t so high and drunk.

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57 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I can say that after racing a J/24 for years that they suck if your not the skipper or tactician. Of course, that’s my personal opinion. 
 

An ugly Merit 25 here would be able to clean up PHRF if the skipper wasn’t so high and drunk.

+1 on both.  Merit 25 is an under rated boat, not much on looks but a good performer.

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2 hours ago, sailman said:
3 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

... An ugly Merit 25 here would be able to clean up PHRF if the skipper wasn’t so high and drunk.

+1 on both.  Merit 25 is an under rated boat, not much on looks but a good performer.

Merit 22 is no slouch either, easier to keep on a trailer and/or drysail

Do people actually race PHRF when they're not high and/or drunk? Seems like it would be a lot less .... entertaining.

- DSK

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On 1/21/2021 at 7:35 PM, dacapo said:

AAC634E0-5D39-4579-8446-A6FE76B0AEE1.jpeg.d35e83823a7ba57db764ce1d94f3c2ef.jpegAAC634E0-5D39-4579-8446-A6FE76B0AEE1.jpeg.d35e83823a7ba57db764ce1d94f3c2ef.jpeg

 

8 hours ago, Sisu3360 said:

Nice, I have #186

#250 here!

From what I can tell they do best on W/L courses. I haven't sailed mine yet.

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13 hours ago, blurocketsmate said:

 

#250 here!

From what I can tell they do best on W/L courses. I haven't sailed mine yet.

Yep, it does well on W/L courses in anything light to medium. Not as great on reaches. Be sure to check in with Ron over on Dolphin24.org.

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