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6 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The biggest Difference between the America's Cup & SailGP is that the GP is held annually. No one gives a damn thing if the next Cup is in 2024/2025. How do you garner interest especially among Non-Hardcore Sailing Fans when the thing shuts down for 3 or 4 years?

I've Subscriptions to most of the Big Newspapers in the UK (as I followed INEOS TEAM UK during the Prada Cup) and there was barely a sniff. BBC didn't even bother to put Articles out how well or not well ITUK was doing. The AC Coverage aside from NZ of course was crap.

SailGP is in every Newspaper.

This is what the SailGP vision is about. It's hard to maintain public interest in an event that only happens every 3-4 years. The goal here (as it was with the original vision of the AC 50 "league") is to keep the boats, teams, and events in the public eye, with the goal of encouraging sponsorship and participation.

In other words, sustainability without the need to locate a handy billionaire every few years. Of course, it takes a billionaire to give that vision any hope of becoming reality for the long run.

Billionaires are handy to have around  for sailing events in any case.

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Some of you are truly amusing. Let's start with a simple truth. This event was probably the best televised sailing I have ever seen. Sure, there is room for improvement but the racing was epic, t

I've never been annoyed this much watching otherwise excellent racing or in fact any sailing ever.  The sailors and sailing are awesome, boats are good for trashing around short courses - how can

i didnt bag the ac dipshit. quite strangely you identify yourself with that event and you feel like if someone bags on you, that means the event. i thought it was good. you on the other hand must be f

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18 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Fuck you. Ill post where i want. Plenty of haters bag the AC for weeks on end, including you, yet they stay around.

i didnt bag the ac dipshit. quite strangely you identify yourself with that event and you feel like if someone bags on you, that means the event. i thought it was good. you on the other hand must be fucking miserable. literally all you post is off color asshole shit. look thru this thread, i dont think you've ever said one nice thing to anyone that wasnt handjob3000 or someone else goating you on. hell other than shitting on people and bragging about accomplishments you had nothing to do with, every post in the AC36 thread you made was asshole shit too. you're a dick, but not just a dick, a dumb one, and that makes you dangerous. i come here to read threads and learn and enjoy with 99% of people here, but it's you constantly puking in every thread. your diatribe is fucking washed up. beat it.

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12 minutes ago, accnick said:

This is what the SailGP vision is about. It's hard to maintain public interest in an event that only happens every 3-4 years. The goal here (as it was with the original vision of the AC 50 "league") is to keep the boats, teams, and events in the public eye, with the goal of encouraging sponsorship and participation.

In other words, sustainability without the need to locate a handy billionaire every few years. Of course, it takes a billionaire to give that vision any hope of becoming reality for the long run.

Billionaires are handy to have around  for sailing events in any case.

Don't understand me wrong! I liked AC36 too, the AC75 Boats are cool but the AC does need to have more Events to sustain interest. Unfortunately the two World Series Events in 2020 they had planned got canned because of C19!

It's quite strange that ETNZ/INEOS are thus far unable to built on the success of AC36!

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19 minutes ago, bigrpowr said:

i didnt bag the ac dipshit. quite strangely you identify yourself with that event and you feel like if someone bags on you, that means the event. i thought it was good. you on the other hand must be fucking miserable. literally all you post is off color asshole shit. look thru this thread, i dont think you've ever said one nice thing to anyone that wasnt handjob3000 or someone else goating you on. hell other than shitting on people and bragging about accomplishments you had nothing to do with, every post in the AC36 thread you made was asshole shit too. you're a dick, but not just a dick, a dumb one, and that makes you dangerous. i come here to read threads and learn and enjoy with 99% of people here, but it's you constantly puking in every thread. your diatribe is fucking washed up. beat it.

Blah blah. Another yank that thinks he can tell people what to do and theyll listen. I will post what i want, when I want. If you dont like it... tough shit.

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2 hours ago, barfy said:

Now you are getting my beef. With training time withheld to better benefit the slower teams, and no one knows how the simulator time is allotted. The phrase "barely in control" in the opening reel is surely repugnant to the teams, especially the "greatest sailor" ...and come to think of it would come back to bite them if there is splintered carbon with serious injury.

But circus like is the way they are marketing, from a shot with the boat going to the moon, to the credits filled with sounds of crews yelling for ROW and boats about to capsize. Surely if the boats were sailed with the precision of the Match or a gold 49 race it wouldn't be as bogun presentable..

Yeah, mine too. The sailors 1st season said in interviews they were not paid for the season, just days working.

So while that's a way of cutting costs it also is an incentive to cut training and dim time to the bare minimum.

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26 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Don't understand me wrong! I liked AC36 too, the AC75 Boats are cool but the AC does need to have more Events to sustain interest. Unfortunately the two World Series Events in 2020 they had planned got canned because of C19!

It's quite strange that ETNZ/INEOS are thus far unable to built on the success of AC36!

Well given they had a couple of days with their new boats and the wings, foils, controls are different than Season 1 for Ben and AC35 for NZ, it's not strange in my book.  What is a shame is they did not have enough time in vetted boats to perform as well as they could have. Even though Ben won. 

If you mean AC, well, early days.

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42 minutes ago, bigrpowr said:

i didnt bag the ac dipshit. quite strangely you identify yourself with that event and you feel like if someone bags on you, that means the event. i thought it was good. you on the other hand must be fucking miserable. literally all you post is off color asshole shit. look thru this thread, i dont think you've ever said one nice thing to anyone that wasnt handjob3000 or someone else goating you on. hell other than shitting on people and bragging about accomplishments you had nothing to do with, every post in the AC36 thread you made was asshole shit too. you're a dick, but not just a dick, a dumb one, and that makes you dangerous. i come here to read threads and learn and enjoy with 99% of people here, but it's you constantly puking in every thread. your diatribe is fucking washed up. beat it.

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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Have you watched the gold medal race from 2008?  Precision?

 

Scheiße, ich kann kein Wort verstehen, das sie sagen, und es sieht aus wie ein totales Durcheinander!  
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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Have you watched the gold medal race from 2008?  Precision?

 

Nice, but

Did they get to practice prior to the race? Were some teams not given practice time?

Every class has its hang on days, but are they marketed as indicative of the racing as a whole? Doesn't the "so fast they are barely under control" rub you wrong?

Edit: let's see the f50 out in conditions like that please!!

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Blah blah. Another yank that thinks he can tell people what to do and theyll listen. I will post what i want, when I want. If you dont like it... tough shit.

inferiority complex? you do sound super tough though.

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6 hours ago, Forourselves said:

image.jpeg.2ffbd91cd17d2942a8fc6f0d045e7981.jpeg
Simply the best!

There is no second. Second is nothing.
 

So you think they are the best. I think these guys are the best

unnamed+%252814%2529.jpg

Winning the Volvo has proven harder than winning the AC. ETNZ failed in their attempt in 2011 despite using all their team resources. Dalton managed 1 win in 4 attempts and only one person has been winning skipper more than once. The Volvo gets a bigger audience globally.

Or if you want a design and sail event, how about this

1611829771465?e=1625097600&v=beta&t=cgmU

The Vendee is probably the hardest sailing event to win and probably has more people following it than any other sailing event. It might have just one sailor, but it is a huge team effort. Nobody has won it twice.

Then consider the Olympics. It is harder to win 2 Golds than it is to win 2 AC's (In the AC, 6 skippers have done so in 36 editions while in the Olympics, 11 have out of 182 opportunities)

In short, only a fool would suggest that winning the AC makes a team the best. They are the best in their field, and all credit to them for that, but the AC is just one of a number of pinnacles in sailing.

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3 minutes ago, SimonN said:

the AC is just one of a number of pinnacles in sailing.

Nah, it is the pinnacle. The one they all want to win. I'm not saying the others aren't great events, but the AC is the premier yacht event bar none.

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Blah blah. Another yank that thinks he can tell people what to do and theyll listen. I will post what i want, when I want. If you dont like it... tough shit.

this is the equivalent of shitting your pants in public and then bragging about it

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Blah blah. Another yank that thinks he can tell people what to do and theyll listen. I will post what i want, when I want. If you dont like it... tough shit.

For a race that you say is not important you spend more time than any other commenting it and makes real the one eyed thin skinned kiwi.

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36 minutes ago, SimonN said:

So you think they are the best. I think these guys are the best

unnamed+%252814%2529.jpg

Winning the Volvo has proven harder than winning the AC. ETNZ failed in their attempt in 2011 despite using all their team resources. Dalton managed 1 win in 4 attempts and only one person has been winning skipper more than once. The Volvo gets a bigger audience globally.

Or if you want a design and sail event, how about this

1611829771465?e=1625097600&v=beta&t=cgmU

The Vendee is probably the hardest sailing event to win and probably has more people following it than any other sailing event. It might have just one sailor, but it is a huge team effort. Nobody has won it twice.

Then consider the Olympics. It is harder to win 2 Golds than it is to win 2 AC's (In the AC, 6 skippers have done so in 36 editions while in the Olympics, 11 have out of 182 opportunities)

In short, only a fool would suggest that winning the AC makes a team the best. They are the best in their field, and all credit to them for that, but the AC is just one of a number of pinnacles in sailing.

I agree. Dongfeng are the best Offshore sailing team in the world today and they have the silverware to prove it!

Blake managed one win after multiple attempts too. The guy is a sailing legend!

Alex Thompson hasn't managed any wins and he's seen as one of the top Vendee skippers in the world today.

Team NZ has won the AC 4 times now. That makes them the best.

The Volvo is the pinnacle of Off shore racing.

The AC is the of inshore racing.

 

 

Wake up fool.

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52 minutes ago, SimonN said:

So you think they are the best. I think these guys are the best

unnamed+%252814%2529.jpg

Winning the Volvo has proven harder than winning the AC. ETNZ failed in their attempt in 2011 despite using all their team resources. Dalton managed 1 win in 4 attempts and only one person has been winning skipper more than once. The Volvo gets a bigger audience globally.

Or if you want a design and sail event, how about this

1611829771465?e=1625097600&v=beta&t=cgmU

The Vendee is probably the hardest sailing event to win and probably has more people following it than any other sailing event. It might have just one sailor, but it is a huge team effort. Nobody has won it twice.

Then consider the Olympics. It is harder to win 2 Golds than it is to win 2 AC's (In the AC, 6 skippers have done so in 36 editions while in the Olympics, 11 have out of 182 opportunities)

In short, only a fool would suggest that winning the AC makes a team the best. They are the best in their field, and all credit to them for that, but the AC is just one of a number of pinnacles in sailing.

The triple crown is 

Olympic Gold

America's Cup

RTW Race

Has not been done yet (AFAIK) Burling , Coutts,  Buddy Melges, Torben Grael have each done 2/3rds.  I dont think anyone has won all three but I may be missing someone.The first is largely dependent on the sailor. The second has an element of chance  in having the right nationality to get on the right boat. The third means being on the right team.   I feel Olympic Gold is the most reflective of the sailor but the other two command huge respect and there is an element of selection bias in the Volvo because the best sailors will get picked for the best teams.  The AC is frankly a bi of a lottery unless you are more than just a helm.  Ben is creating his own chances. Peter happened to be a kiwi which helped.

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

How do you garner interest especially among Non-Hardcore Sailing Fans when the thing shuts down for 3 or 4 years?

There you are dead horse.... the beatings just keep coming!

 

It's a simple formula for the AC: You don't need to garner interest for the AC among non-hardcore sailors or anyone else to have an AC every year or every 10 years... you just need the cup, lots of $ and an opponent.

Learn to live with that 200 year old, pre-TV reality!

 

As for SailGP: Non hardcore/non racing sailors probably don't give any fucks or even know about SailGP!

Relying on a 'paid' audience to watch sailing as a method of spreading sailing's appeal is well - just fucking stupid - or is it SailGP Darwinism?

 

Just a few small random data points:

SailGP YouTube subscribers: 32.1K - my top RC car channels have about 1M+. 32K is a fucking joke for the 'F1 of sailing'.........

Bermuda race Day 2 viewers: 242K - my top RC car channels can get that in a few days.

Compare SailGP's real YouTube viewership versus your next or some other fave hobby for just one data point...

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

The triple crown is 

Olympic Gold

America's Cup

RTW Race

Has not been done yet (AFAIK) Burling , Coutts,  Buddy Melges, Torben Grael have each done 2/3rds.  I dont think anyone has won all three but I may be missing someone.The first is largely dependent on the sailor. The second has an element of chance in getting the right boat. The third means being on the right team.   I feel Olympic Gold is the most reflective of the sailor but the other two command huge respect and there is an element of selection bias because the best sailors will get picked for the best teams.

When it comes to the triple crown, it's sometimes hard to know what really counts. For instance, With what Ainslie did on Oracle in SF, does he count as a winner of the AC? I would argue that when he stepped on board, he took over as skipper (remember his comment to Jimmy "shut up and just do your job?"). I therefore think that Ainslie as 2 out of 3.

Then you have maybe the closest with John Kostecki with a Volvo win, AC win as tactician and a silver medal from the Olympics. Still not the triple crown, but not bad.

I would disagree with your assessment of what it takes to win the Volvo. If you build the team, manage it and develop the boat and crew, you are in control of being in the right team, because you created it (credit to Dalton, for instance).

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

For a race that you say is not important you spend more time than any other commenting it and makes real the one eyed thin skinned kiwi.

And? thin skinned blah blah, seems like the SailGP dummies are the real thin skinned people.

They're even too scared to look like they're criticising SailGP.

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So one of the biggest questions is, you have clearly the top AC design in not only the same country as the SailGP build base, but in the same city, with a  proven track record for over 8 years now, as well as the top high performance sailing team and a simulator that is clearly more advanced than anything any other team in the world has right now. Why not partner with them and let Dan Bernasconi and his team see what they can come up with for the F50? They have the tools, the track record, the sailing team, the feedback loop and the results to back it up.

The F50 could be so much more than what it is if they had a top design team like Team NZ's involved.

 

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12 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

So one of the biggest questions is, you have clearly the top AC design in not only the same country as the SailGP build base, but in the same city, with a  proven track record for over 8 years now, as well as the top high performance sailing team and a simulator that is clearly more advanced than anything any other team in the world has right now. Why not partner with them and let Dan Bernasconi and his team see what they can come up with for the F50? They have the tools, the track record, the sailing team, the feedback loop and the results to back it up.

The F50 could be so much more than what it is if they had a top design team like Team NZ's involved.

 

Ask Grant.. 

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3 hours ago, SimonN said:

he took over as skipper

Simon, you are getting as one-eyed as Clarkey.  He did not take over a s skipper despite what the English press said.  His comment to JS was in the heat of battle, not as skipper to an underling.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Yes, thats exactly what they should've done.

ask the bloke that told you all to fuck off (Larry and Russel) and kick started an new series of spending that's way above what was intended. so far above, that TNZ are having to draft in sponsors and cash mid way through the prada cup to keep going.

I am sure Grant would have been super helpful and charming. he isnt going to fling open his sim or design team to the world is he?

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13 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

ask the bloke that told you all to fuck off (Larry and Russel) and kick started an new series of spending that's way above what was intended. so far above, that TNZ are having to draft in sponsors and cash mid way through the prada cup to keep going.

I am sure Grant would have been super helpful and charming. he isnt going to fling open his sim or design team to the world is he?

You know Team NZ didn't organise the Prada Cup right? That was all done by the CoR.

As for Larry and Russell telling Grant to fuck off hahahaha Grant Kicked Larrys ass, burned their little Framework agreement and made Larry tap out.

Now Grant has Larry and Russell paying his bills too lol Smart man.

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5 hours ago, SimonN said:

When it comes to the triple crown, it's sometimes hard to know what really counts. For instance, With what Ainslie did on Oracle in SF, does he count as a winner of the AC? I would argue that when he stepped on board, he took over as skipper (remember his comment to Jimmy "shut up and just do your job?"). I therefore think that Ainslie as 2 out of 3.

Then you have maybe the closest with John Kostecki with a Volvo win, AC win as tactician and a silver medal from the Olympics. Still not the triple crown, but not bad.

I would disagree with your assessment of what it takes to win the Volvo. If you build the team, manage it and develop the boat and crew, you are in control of being in the right team, because you created it (credit to Dalton, for instance).

I agree that several have come close in ways that would cause us to debate  over the definition.  Does afterguard of AC count? (Blair Tuke and Ben qualify for 2/3.   Does silver medal count? Ian Walker has 2/3 .

But thus far it is so difficult that nobody has done 3 for 3

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43 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

You know Team NZ didn't organise the Prada Cup right? That was all done by the CoR.

As for Larry and Russell telling Grant to fuck off hahahaha Grant Kicked Larrys ass, burned their little Framework agreement and made Larry tap out.

Now Grant has Larry and Russell paying his bills too lol Smart man.

jeez, i know that they didn't organise the Prada cup, my point was and is that the new class was so expensive that grant was still dragging in more sponsors to pay for his boat even at that late stage.

 

as for the rest of you random MMA inspired fantasy, burning the frame work happened before Bermuda, Grant wasn't on the boat to kick anyone's ass and Larry tapping out? who is the one hawking the cup around for a venue as they don't have a pot to piss in?

Grant isn't getting Petes money, unless its some strange pimp/hooker scenario

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3 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

jeez, i know that they didn't organise the Prada cup, my point was and is that the new class was so expensive that grant was still dragging in more sponsors to pay for his boat even at that late stage.

 

as for the rest of you random MMA inspired fantasy, burning the frame work happened before Bermuda, Grant wasn't on the boat to kick anyone's ass and Larry tapping out? who is the one hawking the cup around for a venue as they don't have a pot to piss in?

Grant isn't getting Petes money, unless its some strange pimp/hooker scenario

Attracting sponsorship is always the name of the game when you're commercially sponsored.

It was and is Grants team. That team wouldn't have existed without him.

Ugh talk about broken record. No one cares. Its business. 

Pete is getting Larrys money, which means Grant doesn't have to pay them.

Keep up would ya! You're lagging behind.

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10 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Yeah, mine too. The sailors 1st season said in interviews they were not paid for the season, just days working.

So while that's a way of cutting costs it also is an incentive to cut training and dim time to the bare minimum.

You would think by the time they get the boats there and assembled it wouldn't be too much overhead to have a couple more days training. I know they take huge maintenance, but in the grand scheme of things it could be easily written off as a safety measure that might easily pay off in less broken black bits.

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8 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Nah, it is the pinnacle. The one they all want to win. I'm not saying the others aren't great events, but the AC is the premier yacht event bar none.

If it is the pinnacle why do more people watch and follow other sailing events?  Vendeeeeee Globe is the pinnacle from a sailing point of view IMOHB.

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8 hours ago, Forourselves said:

I agree. Dongfeng are the best Offshore sailing team in the world today and they have the silverware to prove it!

Blake managed one win after multiple attempts too. The guy is a sailing legend!

Alex Thompson hasn't managed any wins and he's seen as one of the top Vendee skippers in the world today.

Team NZ has won the AC 4 times now. That makes them the best.

The Volvo is the pinnacle of Off shore racing.

The AC is the of inshore racing.

 

 

Wake up fool.

I think the US has won more in a row. History not your strong point? You can even google stuff to make it look like you know your stuff. All this help and yet you still keep digging after you have hit rock bottom. 

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8 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

The triple crown is 

Olympic Gold

America's Cup

RTW Race

Has not been done yet (AFAIK) Burling , Coutts,  Buddy Melges, Torben Grael have each done 2/3rds.  I dont think anyone has won all three but I may be missing someone.The first is largely dependent on the sailor. The second has an element of chance  in having the right nationality to get on the right boat. The third means being on the right team.   I feel Olympic Gold is the most reflective of the sailor but the other two command huge respect and there is an element of selection bias in the Volvo because the best sailors will get picked for the best teams.  The AC is frankly a bi of a lottery unless you are more than just a helm.  Ben is creating his own chances. Peter happened to be a kiwi which helped.

Ben is a 2/3rds as well.

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5 hours ago, Forourselves said:

So one of the biggest questions is, you have clearly the top AC design in not only the same country as the SailGP build base, but in the same city, with a  proven track record for over 8 years now, as well as the top high performance sailing team and a simulator that is clearly more advanced than anything any other team in the world has right now. Why not partner with them and let Dan Bernasconi and his team see what they can come up with for the F50? They have the tools, the track record, the sailing team, the feedback loop and the results to back it up.

The F50 could be so much more than what it is if they had a top design team like Team NZ's involved.

 

You mean the English head designer in team NZ?

 

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

Ben is a 2/3rds as well.

 

4 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

I agree that several have come close in ways that would cause us to debate  over the definition.  Does afterguard of AC count? (Blair Tuke and Ben qualify for 2/3.   Does silver medal count? Ian Walker has 2/3 .

But thus far it is so difficult that nobody has done 3 for 3

Ben was afterguard so I noted 2/3rd.   I think he still stands a chance one day of scoring it as a helm.  I dont think he will ever do the RTW so I dont see him as a contender for triple crown.

The most likely candidate is PB who might take another shot at RTW.....but its gruelling and he has checked the box of having done it. As he gets older he might want to focus on the more remunerative profession of AC etc.

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Not sure if it has been explained why INEOS dumped Ben for this as they would have had some cheap pr sponsored by LE. I guess by removing INEOS from the frame it ensured LE picked up the bill once again for team GBR. 

As for the racing, yes, exciting at times with the start, mark rounding and crosses, otherwise it was all banging the boundaries upwind and down to avoid slow manoeuvres as cats know best. The AC monos at least had the option of covering.

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12 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

 

Ben was afterguard so I noted 2/3rd.   I think he still stands a chance one day of scoring it as a helm.  I dont think he will ever do the RTW so I dont see him as a contender for triple crown.

The most likely candidate is PB who might take another shot at RTW.....but its gruelling and he has checked the box of having done it. As he gets older he might want to focus on the more remunerative profession of AC etc.

Sorry I misread. The skill set re the endurance aspect of the RTW is a different kettle of fish. It would be hard to go from regatta and 5 star hotel each night to a cold damp roller coast ride of 80 odd days. I think we are even less likely to see a triple crown winner now. Sailing requires more specialising now. 

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2 hours ago, dullers said:

If it is the pinnacle why do more people watch and follow other sailing events?

To use one of your analogies.....more people watch soccer than virtually anything else. That's doesn't mean it's the pinnacle of sport though does it?

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5 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

To use one of your analogies.....more people watch soccer than virtually anything else. That's doesn't mean it's the pinnacle of sport though does it?

No but it is the pinnacle of sport for more people than it is for the AC.  We were not debating if the AC was the pinnacle of sport but the pinnacle of sailing. It is also fairly subjective. Most of our heroes became heroes before the Ac.

 

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18 minutes ago, dullers said:

We were not debating if the AC was the pinnacle of sport but the pinnacle of sailing. It is also fairly subjective.

I think it's the pinnacle of sailing. No question in my mind. You think differently....that's okay....different strokes for different folks.....

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53 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Not sure if it has been explained why INEOS dumped Ben for this as they would have had some cheap pr sponsored by LE. I guess by removing INEOS from the frame it ensured LE picked up the bill once again for team GBR. 

As for the racing, yes, exciting at times with the start, mark rounding and crosses, otherwise it was all banging the boundaries upwind and down to avoid slow manoeuvres as cats know best. The AC monos at least had the option of covering.

or potentially as COR they may not have wanted to confuse the stupid folks that cant work out the difference between the two events

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7 minutes ago, dullers said:

No but it is the pinnacle of sport for more people than it is for the AC.  We were not debating if the AC was the pinnacle of sport but the pinnacle of sailing. It is also fairly subjective. Most of our heroes became heroes before the Ac.

 

AC is one of the pinnacles in the sport.

Some made their reputation through the AC

Others came to the AC with established reputations

 

Coutts quietly won a gold medal in the Finn but it was the AC that made him a household name. Same with Connors.   

Spitbull made his name due to AC .

Ainslie and Burling came to the AC with established reputations based and great expectations . Ainslie especially was already a household name. I would argue PB was well known to the cognoscenti but not as widely known as he was after AC 2017.  

Sling and Outteridge were very successful prior to AC, but became better known thru AC.

Some gold medalists have remained outstanding sailors but we dont hear as much about them (Nathan Wilmont??) because they didnt take a role in AC sailing.

 

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2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

I think it's the pinnacle of sailing. No question in my mind. You think differently....that's okay....different strokes for different folks.....

I find it strange that TS is not in the AC in some form or other.

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9 minutes ago, dullers said:

I find it strange that TS is not in the AC in some form or other.

Very few teams so very few slots.

TNZ obviously had PB

Ineos was built around Ben and a cadre of British sailors (Giles for tactics)

LR was built around a cadre of Italian sailors who brought back Spitbull who has sailed with them before ...

 

That left AM who woefully under-hired IMHO.   TerrY H as team manager/CEO put himself on the boat as tactician.  He has been dominant in TP52s for a few years but very little foiling experience .  He chose his good TP52 friend and all round nice guy, Dean Barker as helm.    There was clearly a role for TS and/or NO on that boat but they wanted a core of US sailors and they , for their own reasons, thought that DB was the best that money could buy as a helm.   AM should have had one of TS or NO on their boat alongside Paul Goodison. It would have made for a stronger team.

Unfortunately, if RYS and RNZYS choose a 100% nationality rule, we are unlikely to  see them in the AC again in the near future.

 

This makes Sail GP all the more watchable because it includes two such incredible grandprix/AC sailors.

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1 minute ago, EYESAILOR said:

Very few teams so very few slots.

TNZ obviously had PB

Ineos was built around Ben and a cadre of British sailors (Giles for tactics)

LR was built around a cadre of Italian sailors who brought back Spitbull who has sailed with them before ...

 

That left AM who woefully under-hired IMHO.   TerrY H as team manager/CEO put himself on the boat as tactician.  He has been dominant in TP52s for a few years but very little foiling experience .  He chose his good TP52 friend and all round nice guy, Dean Barker as helm.    There was clearly a role for TS and/or NO on that boat but they wanted a core of US sailors and they , for their own reasons, thought that DB was the best that money could buy as a helm.   AM should have had one of TS or NO on their boat alongside Paul Goodison. It would have made for a stronger team.

Unfortunately, if RYS and RNZYS choose a 100% nationality rule, we are unlikely to  see them in the AC again in the near future.

 

This makes Sail GP all the more watchable because it includes two such incredible grandprix/AC sailors.

I dont agree with the 100% nationality rule as it will make almost impossible for countries who don't have history in the AC to compete. I can only see the UK (my country)and NZ benefiting from that. I agree the Sail gp is more watchable. I like both.

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American Magic bringing on Dean Barker makes sense from an experience point of view, they needed someone with high level knowledge of a recent cup campaign, and the fact he came from Team New Zealand increased that desire. and thats in addition to being someone Terry Hutchinson knows well.

The problem with that decision is Deano insists on being a Helm, and I can't see Slingers wanting to "not helm" on a campaign again. (Plus he's also not one of the TP in crowd).

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34 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

American Magic bringing on Dean Barker makes sense from an experience point of view, they needed someone with high level knowledge of a recent cup campaign, and the fact he came from Team New Zealand increased that desire. and thats in addition to being someone Terry Hutchinson knows well.

The problem with that decision is Deano insists on being a Helm, and I can't see Slingers wanting to "not helm" on a campaign again. (Plus he's also not one of the TP in crowd).

Did it make sense?  
 

Dalton pivoted away from old guys after SF and got the 3 best - most experienced high performance sailors - capable of helping design winning foilers.  Maybe he snuck up on folks with this approach in Bermuda.  But there was no excuse for taking that approach tontalwnt selection for the latest Cup.  Like hiring a WWI fly ace to be test pilot for the space shuttle.

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2 hours ago, JonRowe said:

American Magic bringing on Dean Barker makes sense from an experience point of view, they needed someone with high level knowledge of a recent cup campaign, and the fact he came from Team New Zealand increased that desire. and thats in addition to being someone Terry Hutchinson knows well.

The problem with that decision is Deano insists on being a Helm, and I can't see Slingers wanting to "not helm" on a campaign again. (Plus he's also not one of the TP in crowd).

Arguably both Nathan and Sling had at least as much relevant  experience as DB.   Both have done a lot of foiling and both have been involved in AC. Both were in the 2017 AC.  The difference is that both have won gold medals.....DB's best result in Olympics was 13th in a year when BA won gold.  DB is superb at the original AC stuff but never was quite in the same category of best in class that these former olympic gold medalists were.

Deano was part of the TH and owners TP52 sailing , you are right.  But they perhaps should have at least looked at other options.

Dont get me wrong.....DB is a great sailor....love to have him on our boat.....and he has been in every AC since winning with Coutts but I think one could suspect he was not quite the very best that money could buy.

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11 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Arguably both Nathan and Sling had at least as much relevant  experience as DB.   Both have done a lot of foiling and both have been involved in AC. Both were in the 2017 AC.  The difference is that both have won gold medals.....DB's best result in Olympics was 13th in a year when BA won gold.  DB is superb at the original AC stuff but never was quite in the same category of best in class that these former olympic gold medalists were.

Yeah totally agree, I'm not saying he was the only person who made sense, I'm just saying for there were good reasons to choose him, and he happens to be TH's mate. If I were TH I'd have wanted DB, NO and TS, but thats when Deano wanting to helm becomes the problem. (I think TS would have gone to the US for it, but I actually doubt NO would, he's established in NZ and I think the current travelling circus suits him better).

 

1 hour ago, cbulger said:

Dalton pivoted away from old guys after SF and got the 3 best - most experienced high performance sailors - capable of helping design winning foilers.

Dalton didn't want to lose Deano though, he wanted him to stay on the team ala Ray Davies, but Deano wanted to steer badly enough he quit hoping to be picked up by another team. Pete Burling and Blair Tuke were a risk, untested in an AC campaign but with a great 49er reputation, at the time people were not immediately sold on this, even the dyed in the wool Kiwis on this forum... I'm not sure who the third you mean, if its Glen he was already on the team, he was the wing trimmer in San Fran.

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19 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Arguably both Nathan and Sling had at least as much relevant  experience as DB.   Both have done a lot of foiling and both have been involved in AC. Both were in the 2017 AC.  The difference is that both have won gold medals.....DB's best result in Olympics was 13th in a year when BA won gold.  DB is superb at the original AC stuff but never was quite in the same category of best in class that these former olympic gold medalists were.

Deano was part of the TH and owners TP52 sailing , you are right.  But they perhaps should have at least looked at other options.

Dont get me wrong.....DB is a great sailor....love to have him on our boat.....and he has been in every AC since winning with Coutts but I think one could suspect he was not quite the very best that money could buy.

Agreed with that, DB is a great sailor but Nathan and Sling are better when it comes to foiling.

However we should not forget the boat problems, probably the rudder ones. PB was helming easily with the little finger while DB had seemingly to put all the strength of his both arms to try to keep the rudder aligned, more difficult to be precise in those conditions.

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8 hours ago, dullers said:

I think the US has won more in a row. History not your strong point? You can even google stuff to make it look like you know your stuff. All this help and yet you still keep digging after you have hit rock bottom. 

And? Team NZ has won it 4 times.

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45 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Agreed with that, DB is a great sailor but Nathan and Sling are better when it comes to foiling.

However we should not forget the boat problems, probably the rudder ones. PB was helming easily with the little finger while DB had seemingly to put all the strength of his both arms to try to keep the rudder aligned, more difficult to be precise in those conditions.

Yes, now you point it out, I recall it shaking like crazy.  

It may be true that it was an noncompetitive boat.....but I still have a gut instinct that they had some better options in terms of afterguard.  

The problem started with Terry putting himself on the boat.  Grant did the same in SF and it didnt work out.  Grant quickly learnt from RC and realized he could be more objective off the boat . Hence the team rewrite for 2017.

So I think Terry should have picked someone else as tactician. Lots of choices.

Then I suspect the helm choice fell into the same line of mistakes.  Terry picked a helm that he had sailed with as tactician quite a lot.  But things happen a lot faster on an AC 75 than they do on a TP52. The AM communication and decision making process was below par and there was nobody objective "off the boat" to criticize it.  The communication between Ben and Giles and between Peter and Glenn/Blair was very clear cut and you knew immediately who had final call and when.

Anyhow.......we come back to the same discussion. A 100% nationality rule compromises who can be at the AC . Been discussed ad infinitum on the nationality rule thread.

I quite like the pragmatic approach sailGP has taken to nationality. It would not be appropriate for the AC but somehow it works here.  The boats have enough national character to appeal to national supporters, but they also bolster the teams to make sure the very best are there.

 

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29 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

And? Team NZ has won it 4 times.

And the US has won it 29 times!  

Strictly speaking US teams have won the cup 5 times vs NZ 4 times since NZ first showed up

But one of those was a DoG challenge that excluded NZ....so 4 and 4.

However, doubtless, the last 35 years will be looked back at as the era of the kiwis in the AC because their presence as finalists in the challenger series or the cup itself in all 9 out of 9 cups that they ever participated in is an unsurpassed record .

1987 : 13 challengers. NZ won the round robin convincingly. Went into the final as favorite having won 37 of 38 races , including beating stars and stripes in both their prior encounters.....But Dennis the Menace won pretty convincingly with ruthless heavy air tactics (55 tacks on one leg!).

1992 : 8 challengers. Again NZ makes it to the LV final. This time she is winning 4:1 in a best of 9, but the bowsprit got protested and NZ lost the next 4 races (San Francisco was not the first time they were one race away from winning.)

For the next 7 editions of the cup (excluding DoG nonsense), NZ was in the cup itself.  25 years!

7 successive cup matches is pretty amazing track record and of course an 8th is on the way.  

 

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I just watched the last races in Bermuda.  

Sail GP is delivering some pretty interesting and watchable races.  

Go figure.  I'll watch some more.

 

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Yes, now you point it out, I recall it shaking like crazy.  

It may be true that it was an noncompetitive boat.....but I still have a gut instinct that they had some better options in terms of afterguard.  

The problem started with Terry putting himself on the boat.  Grant did the same in SF and it didnt work out.  Grant quickly learnt from RC and realized he could be more objective off the boat . Hence the team rewrite for 2017.

So I think Terry should have picked someone else as tactician. Lots of choices.

Then I suspect the helm choice fell into the same line of mistakes.  Terry picked a helm that he had sailed with as tactician quite a lot.  But things happen a lot faster on an AC 75 than they do on a TP52. The AM communication and decision making process was below par and there was nobody objective "off the boat" to criticize it.  The communication between Ben and Giles and between Peter and Glenn/Blair was very clear cut and you knew immediately who had final call and when.

Anyhow.......we come back to the same discussion. A 100% nationality rule compromises who can be at the AC . Been discussed ad infinitum on the nationality rule thread.

I quite like the pragmatic approach sailGP has taken to nationality. It would not be appropriate for the AC but somehow it works here.  The boats have enough national character to appeal to national supporters, but they also bolster the teams to make sure the very best are there.

 

Agreed at pretty much 100%. They could even have a dual heml like LR with Nathan and Tom. With a better rudder it would have been the fastest boat and have probably won.

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

And? Team NZ has won it 4 times.

Keep digging....and look at your prior posts or you will accidently troll yourself.

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Yes, now you point it out, I recall it shaking like crazy.  

It may be true that it was an noncompetitive boat.....but I still have a gut instinct that they had some better options in terms of afterguard.  

The problem started with Terry putting himself on the boat.  Grant did the same in SF and it didnt work out.  Grant quickly learnt from RC and realized he could be more objective off the boat . Hence the team rewrite for 2017.

So I think Terry should have picked someone else as tactician. Lots of choices.

Then I suspect the helm choice fell into the same line of mistakes.  Terry picked a helm that he had sailed with as tactician quite a lot.  But things happen a lot faster on an AC 75 than they do on a TP52. The AM communication and decision making process was below par and there was nobody objective "off the boat" to criticize it.  The communication between Ben and Giles and between Peter and Glenn/Blair was very clear cut and you knew immediately who had final call and when.

Anyhow.......we come back to the same discussion. A 100% nationality rule compromises who can be at the AC . Been discussed ad infinitum on the nationality rule thread.

I quite like the pragmatic approach sailGP has taken to nationality. It would not be appropriate for the AC but somehow it works here.  The boats have enough national character to appeal to national supporters, but they also bolster the teams to make sure the very best are there.

 

I agree. DB was not the weak point on AM. TH was and should not have been on the boat. He was part time everything on the boat. The Brits had the best set up in terms of rolls. The boat was that magical 1% off.

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8 minutes ago, dullers said:

I agree. DB was not the weak point on AM. TH was and should not have been on the boat. He was part time everything on the boat. The Brits had the best set up in terms of rolls. The boat was that magical 1% off.

The Brits were well sorted.

However TNZ was probably the best set up in roles:

GD :   CEO and manager.  Deep leadership experience in the AC.  Demonstrated good at hiring and taking people decisions. With no distraction by a role on the boat, he could focus 24/7 on ensuring the boat and the team was as well prepared as possible.

PB as helm

Glen and Blair as after guard.

The interaction between the after guard was very smooth and decisive.   Above all I detected trust and mutual respect. If a decision didnt work out or a maneuver was below par, there was no recrimination, they knew they were good at their roles and were focused forward on the next decision. The feedback from Blair and Glenn was confident and continuous and I didnt see any miscommunication.  9.5/10 for rehearsed roles. 

Ben and Giles shared a sense of humor which helped. They were also well rehearsed. I just think NZ sets the bar which other teams have to surpass. Now, admittedly a fast boat makes a team look good.......

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1 hour ago, Left Shift said:

I just watched the last races in Bermuda.  

Sail GP is delivering some pretty interesting and watchable races.  

Go figure.  I'll watch some more.

 

Welcome to the Club:)

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20 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

For a race that you say is not important you spend more time than any other commenting it and makes real the one eyed thin skinned kiwi.

Wow. Listen up, TC.

Argue all you like with, 4ourselves, but don't make the mistake of thinking he represents Kiwis - any Kiwis.

The real 'one eyed, thin skinned, kiwi' is a Cantabrian from the Mainland, born and bred.

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2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

I just watched the last races in Bermuda.  

Sail GP is delivering some pretty interesting and watchable races.  

Go figure.  I'll watch some more.

 

Not too bad at all. Unexpected for me too.

Hopefully the Kiwis will be a bit more competitive in Round 2.

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Not too bad at all. Unexpected for me too.

Hopefully the Kiwis will be a bit more competitive in Round 2.

 

 

 

 

Have they said much about boat problems? I think Spain and the shore crew were playing whack a mole with a bunch of problems both days. 

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2 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Have they said much about boat problems? I think Spain and the shore crew were playing whack a mole with a bunch of problems both days. 

Nothing I've seen in the media. I don't think they're looking for excuses, Clew. They know they put in a shit performance. 

How are things looking at home for you'll at the moment? Hope it's all coming good.

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Just now, Sailbydate said:

Nothing I've seen in the media. I don't think they're looking for excuses, Clew. They know they put in a shit performance. 

How are things looking at home for you'll at the moment? Hope it's all coming good.

Thanks. I might go to a garden store tomorrow. I would like some annuals. Eeeek.

Our local cases are starting to decline, though we still have more than last Oct/Nov. People still dying too. But we can go maskless outside so long as we aren't bunched together. I dunno about that. By myself hiking sure, but around those crazies....I will be sure to keep one handy. 

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

Have they said much about boat problems? I think Spain and the shore crew were playing whack a mole with a bunch of problems both days. 

Hydraulic problems on day 1

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4 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Hydraulic problems on day 1

Good job they put that behind them on day 2 and started bagging 1sts... oh sorry that was the brits! :lol:

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

Good job they put that behind them on day 2 and started bagging 1sts... oh sorry that was the brits! :lol:

Pity the Brits can’t bag a first when it really matters.

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On 4/28/2021 at 11:57 AM, JonRowe said:

Isn't the SailGP "training simulator" in the UK? I seem to recall from some pod casts that the teams with bigger budgets are able to get more time on it than others

I believe it has been moved back to Belfast with Artemis Technologies, who own it.

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9 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

 

The Brits were well sorted.

However TNZ was probably the best set up in roles:

GD :   CEO and manager.  Deep leadership experience in the AC.  Demonstrated good at hiring and taking people decisions. With no distraction by a role on the boat, he could focus 24/7 on ensuring the boat and the team was as well prepared as possible.

PB as helm

Glen and Blair as after guard.

The interaction between the after guard was very smooth and decisive.   Above all I detected trust and mutual respect. If a decision didnt work out or a maneuver was below par, there was no recrimination, they knew they were good at their roles and were focused forward on the next decision. The feedback from Blair and Glenn was confident and continuous and I didnt see any miscommunication.  9.5/10 for rehearsed roles. 

Ben and Giles shared a sense of humor which helped. They were also well rehearsed. I just think NZ sets the bar which other teams have to surpass. Now, admittedly a fast boat makes a team look good.......

I was only thinking on the boat. I dont really know about the rolls behind the scenes as I have not followed it. We could hear the interactions on the boat.  I would like to hear more about the interactions on sail gp but i suppose that will come with better coverage.

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6 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Dominance!

I prefer your short posts like this. Keep it up.

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On 4/29/2021 at 5:43 PM, trt131 said:

Simon, you are getting as one-eyed as Clarkey.  He did not take over a s skipper despite what the English press said.  His comment to JS was in the heat of battle, not as skipper to an underling.

Maybe a little OTT to give him the title of skipper but ask other team members what happened and they will tell you that Ainslie took over everything about how the boat was sailed and was the conduit on board for all discussion and decisions. Everything went through him. Part of the problem had been that Jimmy was second guessing Kostecki and didn't have confidence in the calls being made so made mistakes. the "shut up" comment was Ainslie forcing Spithill to stop talking abut things that were distracting him. Nobody else would have spoken like that. So, maybe not the skipper title, but in every respect, that is what he was. And I am not guessing at this. I was told this by team members.

 

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14 minutes ago, SimonN said:

Maybe a little OTT to give him the title of skipper but ask other team members what happened and they will tell you that Ainslie took over everything about how the boat was sailed and was the conduit on board for all discussion and decisions. Everything went through him. Part of the problem had been that Jimmy was second guessing Kostecki and didn't have confidence in the calls being made so made mistakes. the "shut up" comment was Ainslie forcing Spithill to stop talking abut things that were distracting him. Nobody else would have spoken like that. So, maybe not the skipper title, but in every respect, that is what he was. And I am not guessing at this. I was told this by team members.

 

Ben took over as tactician.   Ben and Tom Slingsby developed a very good communication process that Jimmy could hear with Ben making the call. Jimmy had confidence in that process.

It was a key change in the dynamic that allowed Jimmy to drive.    One heard Ben occasionally ask for different driving modes,  

He was not skipper but a highly influential tactician 

Nevertheless Ben wants to win the AC at the helm of a British team. For him, that will be “winning” the cup

 

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4 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Pity the Brits can’t bag a first when it really matters.

They did or are you completely devoid of links to the outside world?

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Maybe should go in the design thread, but also decent discussion about the events themselves, so I'll stick in here.

Lots of interesting stuff beyond just sheet loading issue which lead to Australia's capsize in practice. I found it interesting how efficient 'trimming' twist has become and the impacts on crew roles, especially as the female athletes come aboard. 
 

 

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16 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Not too bad at all. Unexpected for me too.

Hopefully the Kiwis will be a bit more competitive in Round 2.

 

 

 

 

To be fair, the Kiwis had a day and a half with their wing and a half a day with their actual race boat before they were expected to line up for real. I'm fairly certain that a few of the boats will look much different at the next event as there will be time to get them properly painted in their unique liveries. Several of them arrived in Bermuda still needing some finishing work. The Kiwi boat was shipped in partially finished pieces and required the most work to get race ready. 

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7 hours ago, SimonN said:

Maybe a little OTT to give him the title of skipper but ask other team members what happened and they will tell you that Ainslie took over everything about how the boat was sailed and was the conduit on board for all discussion and decisions. Everything went through him. Part of the problem had been that Jimmy was second guessing Kostecki and didn't have confidence in the calls being made so made mistakes. the "shut up" comment was Ainslie forcing Spithill to stop talking abut things that were distracting him. Nobody else would have spoken like that. So, maybe not the skipper title, but in every respect, that is what he was. And I am not guessing at this. I was told this by team members.

 

I agree with this. The demeanor on the boat completely changed. I think this was more important than the Kiwi's choking, boat improvements and sailing technique changes. I still think of Kostecki after that switch as some kind of wanker that let shit get completely out of his control. Sort of like TH after the AM debacle. 

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10 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

I agree with this. The demeanor on the boat completely changed. I think this was more important than the Kiwi's choking, boat improvements and sailing technique changes. I still think of Kostecki after that switch as some kind of wanker that let shit get completely out of his control. Sort of like TH after the AM debacle. 

Agree the dynamic between Ben,Sling and thru to Jimmy was extremely effective.

Certainly not fair to call Kostecki a wanker. He is very smart sailor and he did event the "k" at leeward marks.  But the boat got better once Ben climbed on board - indisputable. Tough call to trade out JK who was popular with everyone, but that is why having Coutts off the boat taking an objective tough decision added to the formula.   They also make continuous improvements to the boat and got better and better and sailing it.

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1 hour ago, pusslicker said:

I agree with this. The demeanor on the boat completely changed. I think this was more important than the Kiwi's choking, boat improvements and sailing technique changes. I still think of Kostecki after that switch as some kind of wanker that let shit get completely out of his control. Sort of like TH after the AM debacle. 

You guys are putting too much emphasis on the sailing team in San Fran.  Remember, if it had been best of 7, or 9, or 11, or..... then the Kiwis win.  Having the never ending regatta ensured gave a bigger advantage to the team with the most $.  $ and the longer event meant that Oracle could just copy everything from TNZ.  As my coach used to say - imitate, imitate, imitate, then innovate.

No doubt the Oracle sailing team did their job, but in any other cup final format they are just another losing team.

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2 hours ago, cbulger said:

You guys are putting too much emphasis on the sailing team in San Fran.  Remember, if it had been best of 7, or 9, or 11, or..... then the Kiwis win.  Having the never ending regatta ensured gave a bigger advantage to the team with the most $.  $ and the longer event meant that Oracle could just copy everything from TNZ.  As my coach used to say - imitate, imitate, imitate, then innovate.

No doubt the Oracle sailing team did their job, but in any other cup final format they are just another losing team.

If... 

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14 hours ago, dullers said:

I prefer your short posts like this. Keep it up.

The long posts do serve a greater good by keeping him engaged in something other than just about anything else.

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2 hours ago, cbulger said:

You guys are putting too much emphasis on the sailing team in San Fran.  Remember, if it had been best of 7, or 9, or 11, or..... then the Kiwis win.  Having the never ending regatta ensured gave a bigger advantage to the team with the most $.  $ and the longer event meant that Oracle could just copy everything from TNZ.  As my coach used to say - imitate, imitate, imitate, then innovate.

No doubt the Oracle sailing team did their job, but in any other cup final format they are just another losing team.

The format was agreed a long time ahead by Defender and Challenger.  Who knows why best of 17 was picked....I think it was primarily to create a spectacle with lots of racing to watch for TV.

Whatever the reason, fate created one of the biggest sporting come backs of all time (some would argue tied with October 2004).   I think the mystique and improbability of 2013 will never be repeated in sailing or indeed in any other sport. 

The combination of events was so unreal that if a movie script writer submitted it, it would be rejected as too unrealistic

  • A cheating scandal
  • Oracle starting 2 races down due to a penalty.
  • NZ 8 races vs 1 ahead with only 1 race needed to win
  • Spitbull's incredible prescient quote in the press conference "Imagine if they lost"
  • NZ winning Race 13 and the Cup by over 1,000 meters only to see it abandoned by time limit
  • Then Oracle win 8 races in a row.

 

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