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34 minutes ago, accnick said:

Please don't perpetuate myths.

That one is right up there with Trump's stolen election. First-class gaslighting.

Gaslighting? It might be a lie, a myth, a conspiracy, but not gaslighting, please.

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I had to stop and take a photo of this today (not like I'm pushed for time during lockdown ). Looks like my youngest likes SailGP. Perhaps the boats are just easier to build with lego than the foiling

I've never been annoyed this much watching otherwise excellent racing or in fact any sailing ever.  The sailors and sailing are awesome, boats are good for trashing around short courses - how can

Some of you are truly amusing. Let's start with a simple truth. This event was probably the best televised sailing I have ever seen. Sure, there is room for improvement but the racing was epic, t

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1 hour ago, Randro said:

You know fuck all about what actually happened do you?

Maybe just pretending not to.

847eed2503bf544f997b97a76a573cde.gif

It was beast mode....

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38 minutes ago, Randro said:

Herbie ain't a myth.  He is what happened, I saw it happen.

I have sailed my entire long life and you can't bullshit me.

'Influencers' really shit me.

Beast mode, where Ben was flogging those two grinders at the front, "put Yur backs into it you worthless fucks" only while miraculously foiling upwind with perfect ride height control, and all that oil going into Kyle's winch drum which was spinning so fast the main sheet was smoking and he had to keep watering it like he was on a longboat tied fast to fucking Moby Duck.

:)

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

Gaslighting? It might be a lie, a myth, a conspiracy, but not gaslighting, please.

Fair enough. I stand corrected.

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All what I've read here recently proves my Point: Ben Ainslie is a better Tactician than a Helmsman. I wish he would give up the wheel for AC37 to someone else and calling tactics instead!

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2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Do more people believe in Herbie or that the former guy won the election?

Well, there may be  30,000,000 in the US that believe the former guy won the election, despite all the objective evidence.

You could probably count hard-core Herbie believers in the US on your fingers and toes. In certain parts of the Antipodes, the numbers probably reflect a percentage of hard-core Herbie believers comparable to the "other guy" believers here.

Nothing will convince them otherwise, so there is no use trying. 

Scapegoats are useful when harsh reality intrudes.

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20 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Dont forget that after Ben came onboard for race 6, Oracle lost another 4 races (and won 2).  There were lots of things that came together for Oracle to stage its come back.

Do you guys know what the thread is titled?  

Motel 6 has rooms.

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12 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Herbie?

That was a mistake. ;-)

 

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On 4/30/2021 at 7:53 PM, Forourselves said:

They picked up one win, and lost 7 when it mattered.

When was this. They won the one that mattered? Is this not the sail GP thread or are you really that stupid you cant tell?

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On 4/30/2021 at 11:54 PM, pusslicker said:

The long posts do serve a greater good by keeping him engaged in something other than just about anything else.

I am enjoying his posts about the AC when we are on a sail gp thread. I think his life's work ended in Auckland and he cant let go and move on.

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15 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

All what I've read here recently proves my Point: Ben Ainslie is a better Tactician than a Helmsman. I wish he would give up the wheel for AC37 to someone else and calling tactics instead!

Stfu. On current evidence from Sail GP he did a better job as helmsman than anyone else. 

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3 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Stfu. On current evidence from Sail GP he did a better job as helmsman than anyone else. 

Its funny that we forget about the topic heading here.  Sail GP.......and thus far Ben Ainslie has helmed in two SailGP events and won them both.

Yet here we are wondering what is wrong with Ben and how it should be fixed ......

I guess I look at the overall races in Bermuda where Ben really had some luck which got him into the final and then won the final race. He did not dominate the event like he did in S'ney.  But the competitive bar was raised so I think the whole series is going to be very close.

On evidence based on total races: Sling did a better job as helmsman than anyone else

On evidence based on winning when it matters and winning the overall event, Ben did a better job than anyone else and he was the only helm to beat Sling twice. 

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^ it will be an interesting year, if some races have breeze on. I find it encouraging that they delayed a race for weather, I've always maintained the show would be hugely improved by one or two lay days.

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3 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Its funny that we forget about the topic heading here.  Sail GP.......and thus far Ben Ainslie has helmed in two SailGP events and won them both.

Yet here we are wondering what is wrong with Ben and how it should be fixed ......

I guess I look at the overall races in Bermuda where Ben really had some luck which got him into the final and then won the final race. He did not dominate the event like he did in S'ney.  But the competitive bar was raised so I think the whole series is going to be very close.

On evidence based on total races: Sling did a better job as helmsman than anyone else

On evidence based on winning when it matters and winning the overall event, Ben did a better job than anyone else and he was the only helm to beat Sling twice. 

Some people forget that SailGP and the AC are team sports. It takes more than just a good guy driving. 

In the case of SailGP, we have equipment that is as equal as possible, so it comes down to the sailors. I love that.

The AC is different, in that the equipment is at least as important a factor in determining success as the sailing team. I love that, too.

With some luck, by the middle of the SailGP season all the teams will have enough experience in the boats that those differences will be minimized, and it will come down to pure sailing skill. It will be fun to watch the best in the world go head to head with no excuse to lose.  (Gee, that sounds like a good name for a sailing autobiography...)

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4 hours ago, accnick said:

Some people forget that SailGP and the AC are team sports. It takes more than just a good guy driving. 

In the case of SailGP, we have equipment that is as equal as possible, so it comes down to the sailors. I love that.

The AC is different, in that the equipment is at least as important a factor in determining success as the sailing team. I love that, too.

With some luck, by the middle of the SailGP season all the teams will have enough experience in the boats that those differences will be minimized, and it will come down to pure sailing skill. It will be fun to watch the best in the world go head to head with no excuse to lose.  (Gee, that sounds like a good name for a sailing autobiography...)

Yes....it is a team sport. 

Yes ....I agree that Sail GP and AC are both interesting in very different ways.  In Sail GP, we wait to see how the teams develop. With such strong raw material, we know there will be some close and exciting sailing.

With the AC, there is a tendency to believe it is just a design race and that the faster boat always wins.  Certainly boat speed makes a tactician look great. But look at the spread between finishes in Sail GP.....identical boats.....yet silngsby won 4 out of 6 races. If this was the AC we would put it down to a faster boat.  In reality the sailors still make a difference which is why even if you have a great design you need good sailors to execute the end result. 

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On 5/1/2021 at 5:54 PM, dg_sailingfan said:

All what I've read here recently proves my Point: Ben Ainslie is a better Tactician than a Helmsman. I wish he would give up the wheel for AC37 to someone else and calling tactics instead!

So the last to major races he has been in on equal boats he has lost? Sydney Bermuda??

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42 minutes ago, dullers said:

So the last to major races he has been in on equal boats he has lost? Sydney Bermuda??

Ben was a tactical genius on the Oracle Boat in 2013! Amazing Comms, amazing Decision-making!

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2 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Ben was a tactical genius on the Oracle Boat in 2013! Amazing Comms, amazing Decision-making!

I agree he is most probably 1 or 2 in the world in either position. I wish we knew more about the change around in SF.

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11 hours ago, dullers said:

When was this. They won the one that mattered? Is this not the sail GP thread or are you really that stupid you cant tell?

When it matters...we all know what matters.

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

When it matters...we all know what matters.

I have said it before and |I will say it again. Well done on winning the Americas cup again. Now be gracious and enjoy the Sail GP which is a different sort of competition.

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

When it matters...we all know what matters.

I agree Ben won when it mattered in that final race......He does have that something "extra" when it matters. It was the same in 2012 Olympics .  That medal race was a brutal display of match racing.

However I was merely pointing out that Sling had a good regatta as well winning 4 races. 

All good. Im sure that the competition will only get tougher going forward. I do NOT expect Ben to maintain the perfect winning score( 2 and 0)

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6 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

silngsby won 4 out of 6 races.

I don't know how much they count the final race but IMO, Sling should have won. He was consistently the fastest on water.

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11 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I don't know how much they count the final race but IMO, Sling should have won. He was consistently the fastest on water.

The final race is winner takes all. Does not matter as long as you get to the final. All I know is Ben is pretty good.

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27 minutes ago, dullers said:

The final race is winner takes all. Does not matter as long as you get to the final. All I know is Ben is pretty good.

The first five races are like an abbreviated round robin.  3 boats through to the final. Then the final race is winner takes all.

But it gets even crazier than that. The only race that really matters is the final race on the final weekend of the series , where the winner takes home $1 million.....no second prize!

Interestingly I cant find NOR or SIs anywhere that explain who qualifies for that final race. Do the points for each event matter in any way?  Is the final, the two top boats for the season or just thetwo top boats on the final weekend.

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24 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

The first five races are like an abbreviated round robin.  3 boats through to the final. Then the final race is winner takes all.

But it gets even crazier than that. The only race that really matters is the final race on the final weekend of the series , where the winner takes home $1 million.....no second prize!

Interestingly I cant find NOR or SIs anywhere that explain who qualifies for that final race. Do the points for each event matter in any way?  Is the final, the two top boats for the season or just thetwo top boats on the final weekend.

Last year I think they kept a running points count all season to get top 2 for the $ race.  The leaderboard shows it. 

But who knows they make up the rules as they go do it could be 3 this year. 

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2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Last year I think they kept a running points count all season to get top 2 for the $ race.  The leaderboard shows it. 

But who knows they make up the rules as they go do it could be 3 this year. 

Yup good point. I liked the 3 format. Imagine if the final 3 are Sling, Ben and PB.......or Sling Ben and nathan.......or Sling Ben and Jimmy.    There is no covering one boat in that kind of line up.

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19 hours ago, Potter said:

Good report here from Phil Robertson, considering he had no electronics for the first race he nailed that start! 

The boats only qualify as one design if they all work reliably - which wasn't the case in Bermuda. Partially one design is more accurate. 

I still think running a global yacht event in the midst of a global pandemic is nuts. They'd been much better to pick a couple of safe venues and sail the shit out of them - like for a month or so. The crews would get better, the boats would get better (be more reliable) and we'd get better sailing.

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9 hours ago, dullers said:

I have said it before and |I will say it again. Well done on winning the Americas cup again. Now be gracious and enjoy the Sail GP which is a different sort of competition.

I have nothing against anyone who wants to enjoy SailGP for what it is, as long as you know, and are clear what it is. You can enjoy it all you like, but if youre going to say it, in any way is equl to, or better than the AC in any way. Im going to call you out on it. Its not, it never had bern and never will be, not in the boat design, the format or the production quality. So enjoy it all you like, say its different all you like and I’ll agree with you, but the AC far exceeds SailGP in EVERY way. 

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2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

The boats only qualify as one design if they all work reliably - which wasn't the case in Bermuda. Partially one design is more accurate. 

I still think running a global yacht event in the midst of a global pandemic is nuts. They'd been much better to pick a couple of safe venues and sail the shit out of them - like for a month or so. The crews would get better, the boats would get better (be more reliable) and we'd get better sailing.

The boats need to be of one design, to be one design. If stuff breaks that doesnt suddenly make them not one design. 

The idea is to get similar boats. You can chase that ideal with stricter design tolerances, single manufacturer's etc. 

But, things always break. Not ideal, but not something that can be held against the 'one design. 

Dylan is very picky with boats, and sailing 49ers and 29ers has been involved with two of the successful modern one designs. But he said the f50 were genuinely the closest to hitting that ideal. 

I get your point about trying to put on a global series, seems very ambitious. Seems despite to covid delay Bermuda was a real squeeze to make happen in many ways and it showed up a few times. Hopefully it gets ironed out. 

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7 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

The first five races are like an abbreviated round robin.  3 boats through to the final. Then the final race is winner takes all.

But it gets even crazier than that. The only race that really matters is the final race on the final weekend of the series , where the winner takes home $1 million.....no second prize!

Interestingly I cant find NOR or SIs anywhere that explain who qualifies for that final race. Do the points for each event matter in any way?  Is the final, the two top boats for the season or just thetwo top boats on the final weekend.

I know in Sydney they were talking about Bronze ,Silver and Gold but i did not here what it related to. Is it not meant to be a bit like Formula 1 racing? Slingsby won it overall so an accumulation of something won it for him in 2019?

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

I have nothing against anyone who wants to enjoy SailGP for what it is, as long as you know, and are clear what it is. You can enjoy it all you like, but if youre going to say it, in any way is equl to, or better than the AC in any way. Im going to call you out on it. Its not, it never had bern and never will be, not in the boat design, the format or the production quality. So enjoy it all you like, say its different all you like and I’ll agree with you, but the AC far exceeds SailGP in EVERY way. 

Tell me how the AC exceeds it in every way? Cost of the boats for sure.....I cannot think how the sailing is as entertaining as the Sail gp. Sail GP is like the Grand national and the AC is more like two beautiful horses show trotting. We also get to watch sailors have to out sail others in equal platforms.  Now if all the AC boats had been on the race course at the same time you might have something but you dont. If you liked the win in 2017 on those cats and I am sure you did but now think it is inferior to see the same type of boats racing as a pack you come across as a hypocrite. Both set  are up good and somethings are better about sail gp than the Ac IMHO. You see what is lacking in every post you make is humility. You come across as a 15 year old with pimples.

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1 hour ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Bermuda was a real squeeze to make happen in many ways and it showed up a few times.

It did feel rushed. The Kiwi boat was barely finished in time and suffered pump issues. I know time is money, I just think it would be a better event if they sorted the gremlins in the boats out, and the crews got more time - so we see them at their best. Hopefully the next events will sort these issues out.

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41 minutes ago, JeronimoII said:

great article indeed, but Phil is also quoting the wind in km/h... arrrgggrgrggrrgg. 

Agree, good article. Sent an email to Phil, and asked him to PLEASE use knots. :)

Hope you blasted off an email to SailGP like I did, asking them to use the only term ever used for speed in maritime industries!   contact@sailgp.com

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

I have nothing against anyone who wants to enjoy SailGP for what it is, as long as you know, and are clear what it is. You can enjoy it all you like, but if youre going to say it, in any way is equl to, or better than the AC in any way. Im going to call you out on it. Its not, it never had bern and never will be, not in the boat design, the format or the production quality. So enjoy it all you like, say its different all you like and I’ll agree with you, but the AC far exceeds SailGP in EVERY way. 

Nobody actual had suggested that. 
 

merely that in a “second rate” event your boys were found wanting, which given their super amazing superiority in all things foiling was rather funny. 

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30 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

It did feel rushed. The Kiwi boat was barely finished in time and suffered pump issues. I know time is money, I just think it would be a better event if they sorted the gremlins in the boats out, and the crews got more time - so we see them at their best. Hopefully the next events will sort these issues out.

That would mean practice time.

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11 minutes ago, barfy said:

That would mean practice time.

It would. I don't see why they don't get more time in the boats? It would improve the product. As Phil R said, they were good in a straight line - intimating that they weren't so good in manoeuvers. The whole back half of the fleet were like that - splashing down all the time.

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

Tell me how the AC exceeds it in every way? Cost of the boats for sure.....I cannot think how the sailing is as entertaining as the Sail gp. Sail GP is like the Grand national and the AC is more like two beautiful horses show trotting. We also get to watch sailors have to out sail others in equal platforms.  Now if all the AC boats had been on the race course at the same time you might have something but you dont. If you liked the win in 2017 on those cats and I am sure you did but now think it is inferior to see the same type of boats racing as a pack you come across as a hypocrite. Both set  are up good and somethings are better about sail gp than the Ac IMHO. You see what is lacking in every post you make is humility. You come across as a 15 year old with pimples.

How? First, lets look at SailGP - “ Sailing redefined” how? One Design? Nope, done before, foiling cats? Nope, done before LOTS of times? Stadium racing? Nope, done before. The technology? Nope, seen it all before. SailGP hasn’t done anything it sells itself on. “National teams” Nope. Not even close. The only truly National team is the brand new Kiwi team! 
Fleet racing? The GC32 had been doing it for years before SailGP came along! Most, if not ALL “developments” seen on the F50 came from the ETNZ AC50! Hydraulic wing control, hand held wing control mechanisms, a crew member dedicated to flying the boat, radically shaped foils, all evolutions of the ETNZ design out of Bermuda. Have you seen Larry or Russell admit that or acknowledge it? NO. Infact Russells latest statement states SailGP is more exciting than anything hes ever seen before in the Americas Cup. So much for not competing with the AC right? 

In terms of hypocrisy, How? I dont see anyone promoting the TF35 Trophy here, or the GC32 Tour or the Persico 69F Tour on here let alone a series like the 52 Super Series. 
Infact in some cases its the complete opposite! SailGP fans enjoy SailGP because its the Americas Cup without being the Americas Cup. Because if their team loses the Americas Cup, oh well thats because of one teams technology advantage. Not the fact that the same sailors competing in SailGP know what it takes to design an innovative and revolutionary boat. That they’re more than just test pilots given average equipment and having to deal with it. You’ve been had folks. Youre a sucker. Theres no sailing redefined. Theres no revolution in SailGP, its nothing new or more exciting than anything else. Its a competition that in reality is using the AC to stay relevant while saying they arent competing. Its a series born of bad sportsmanship, based on a lie in the name of entertainment. 
How does the AC exceed SailGP? By ACTUALLY redefining sailing. By actually living up to its reputation as the pinnacle of Professional Sailing. By deploying a spectacular video coverage package. Something SailGP says it does, but in reality doesnt do.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

How? First, lets look at SailGP - “ Sailing redefined” how? One Design? Nope, done before, foiling cats? Nope, done before LOTS of times? Stadium racing? Nope, done before. The technology? Nope, seen it all before. SailGP hasn’t done anything it sells itself on. “National teams” Nope. Not even close. The only truly National team is the brand new Kiwi team! 
Fleet racing? The GC32 had been doing it for years before SailGP came along! Most, if not ALL “developments” seen on the F50 came from the ETNZ AC50! Hydraulic wing control, hand held wing control mechanisms, a crew member dedicated to flying the boat, radically shaped foils, all evolutions of the ETNZ design out of Bermuda. Have you seen Larry or Russell admit that or acknowledge it? NO. Infact Russells latest statement states SailGP is more exciting than anything hes ever seen before in the Americas Cup. So much for not competing with the AC right? 

In terms of hypocrisy, How? I dont see anyone promoting the TF35 Trophy here, or the GC32 Tour or the Persico 69F Tour on here let alone a series like the 52 Super Series. 
Infact in some cases its the complete opposite! SailGP fans enjoy SailGP because its the Americas Cup without being the Americas Cup. Because if their team loses the Americas Cup, oh well thats because of one teams technology advantage. Not the fact that the same sailors competing in SailGP know what it takes to design an innovative and revolutionary boat. That they’re more than just test pilots given average equipment and having to deal with it. You’ve been had folks. Youre a sucker. Theres no sailing redefined. Theres no revolution in SailGP, its nothing new or more exciting than anything else. Its a competition that in reality is using the AC to stay relevant while saying they arent competing. Its a series born of bad sportsmanship, based on a lie in the name of entertainment. 
How does the AC exceed SailGP? By ACTUALLY redefining sailing. By actually living up to its reputation as the pinnacle of Professional Sailing. By deploying a spectacular video coverage package. Something SailGP says it does, but in reality doesnt do.

But apart from that Sail GP is more entertaining.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

How? First, lets look at SailGP - “ Sailing redefined” how? One Design? Nope, done before, foiling cats? Nope, done before LOTS of times? Stadium racing? Nope, done before. The technology? Nope, seen it all before. SailGP hasn’t done anything it sells itself on. “National teams” Nope. Not even close. The only truly National team is the brand new Kiwi team! 
Fleet racing? The GC32 had been doing it for years before SailGP came along! Most, if not ALL “developments” seen on the F50 came from the ETNZ AC50! Hydraulic wing control, hand held wing control mechanisms, a crew member dedicated to flying the boat, radically shaped foils, all evolutions of the ETNZ design out of Bermuda. Have you seen Larry or Russell admit that or acknowledge it? NO. Infact Russells latest statement states SailGP is more exciting than anything hes ever seen before in the Americas Cup. So much for not competing with the AC right? 

In terms of hypocrisy, How? I dont see anyone promoting the TF35 Trophy here, or the GC32 Tour or the Persico 69F Tour on here let alone a series like the 52 Super Series. 
Infact in some cases its the complete opposite! SailGP fans enjoy SailGP because its the Americas Cup without being the Americas Cup. Because if their team loses the Americas Cup, oh well thats because of one teams technology advantage. Not the fact that the same sailors competing in SailGP know what it takes to design an innovative and revolutionary boat. That they’re more than just test pilots given average equipment and having to deal with it. You’ve been had folks. Youre a sucker. Theres no sailing redefined. Theres no revolution in SailGP, its nothing new or more exciting than anything else. Its a competition that in reality is using the AC to stay relevant while saying they arent competing. Its a series born of bad sportsmanship, based on a lie in the name of entertainment. 
How does the AC exceed SailGP? By ACTUALLY redefining sailing. By actually living up to its reputation as the pinnacle of Professional Sailing. By deploying a spectacular video coverage package. Something SailGP says it does, but in reality doesnt do.

I have no idea why you are so hung up on trying to compare sailGP to the AC in such a negative way.

They are very different events. Each can be enjoyed. Some (like me ) enjoy both. Some (like you) enjoy the battle of technology and sailor that is the AC and are less interested in the One Design spin off from the AC. 

Sail GP is not replacing the AC and is not a threat to the AC.  SailGP replaces the various professional tour events that have gone before it. For example, it replaces the Extreme sailing series.

It has done better (so far) than its predecessors because (i) It has attracted better teams and (ii) it is better funded.  It is way too early to tell whether it will survive but in the meantime, it is very enjoyable.   

Yes, it is a spin off that came out of the 35Th AC.  We all know that

To call it bad sportsmanship is a stretch.  I look on it as a good thing that came out of Bermuda 35th AC.    It had always been LE and RC's dream to have a series in the AC 50 going forward, unrelated to the cup itself.  If they had won the cup, the cup would have been in the same class of boat but they lost so we got the AC75 for the AC and the GP50 for the annual series. We get the best of both worlds. The best sailors racing in development design every 3-4 years and the same best sailors in the world racing in a one design on an annual basis. What on earth is wrong with that?

 

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

In terms of hypocrisy, How? I dont see anyone promoting the TF35 Trophy here, or the GC32 Tour or the Persico 69F Tour on here let alone a series like the 52 Super Series.

People are not promoting these Tours you mentioned because they have literally no TV Coverage.

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35 minutes ago, dullers said:

But apart from that Sail GP is more entertaining.

Both entertaining in very different ways.

Let some enjoy the technical battle  that is involved in a box rule and designer rule that is the AC.  The stupendous historicity of the cup, the battle of the billionaires etc.

Let others enjoy the close racing of one design.

For sure the AC will survive. There might come a time when challenges diminish and the frequency of the event spreads out but it will always be there.   SailGP has a more fragile outlook as it is totally dependent on LE's generosity. I hope it becomes self funded before too long.

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3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

People are not promoting these Tours you mentioned because they have literally no TV Coverage.

+ they dont have the same level of rockstar sailors.

Jimmy Spitbull, Peter Burling, Cecco Bruni, Tom Slingsby, and Nathan Outteridge etc are not racing in the TF 35, GC32 series.

The smart move of SailGP as a spin out from the AC is that it has attracted those AC sailors to race in the series.

TV coverage follows the stars.

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

.

Jimmy Spitbull, Peter Burling, Cecco Bruni, Tom Slingsby, and Nathan Outteridge etc are not racing in the TF 35, GC32 series.

 

The majority of those, plus Ben Ainslie, Phil Robertson, Franck Cammas, Morgan Larson, Nicolai Sehested and others have done the ESS and GC32. The difference is that SailGP has LE's funding to throw at TV production, marketing and sales. 

The TV production budget for SailGP Bermuda would be higher than that for an entire year of GC32 tour, ESS and TF35 combined. 

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@Potter

The GC32 has no TV Coverage at all. All you get is a 30 Minute Highlight Show.

The ESS TV Coverage was an utter catastrophe. You had only TV for two Days and everything else was on Virtual Eye.

Finally because of C19 the GC32 has been shut down while SailGP still manages to pull the Events off.

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6 hours ago, JeronimoII said:

great article indeed, but Phil is also quoting the wind in km/h... arrrgggrgrggrrgg. 

That is a requirement in SailGP. Everything is metric. Except when it isn't, like the boat description on the SailGP website, which quotes dimensions in both metric and imperial, and boatspeed in both knots and statute miles per hour! No km/h boatspeed to be found, however.

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1 hour ago, Potter said:

The majority of those, plus Ben Ainslie, Phil Robertson, Franck Cammas, Morgan Larson, Nicolai Sehested and others have done the ESS and GC32. The difference is that SailGP has LE's funding to throw at TV production, marketing and sales. 

The TV production budget for SailGP Bermuda would be higher than that for an entire year of GC32 tour, ESS and TF35 combined. 

Yup.  TV budget and overall publicity.

Plus they are all in the same event at the same time. I cannot recall the ESS having such a pull. I remember Tom S sailed Oman ESS. But nothing made a huge impression although they were fun to watch .

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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

 

TV coverage follows the stars.

Tv coverage of sailing has never followed “the stars”, because it has never ever been driven by actual viewership, because there simply isn’t any. This is true across 99% of the world, the only exceptions being a tiny blip around Alex T and Ben A in the UK, France during the vendee, and the AC for a few weeks a year in NZ and italy. Those four items are literally the only meaningful sailing audience that ever exists for the sport. 
 

all of the above is why, as potter explained, coverage is driven by other needs than audience numbers. The exss coverage was driven by series sponsor perception and fulfillment and was always the cheapest they could get away with. The GC32 is driven by owners vanity coverage, which is why they have a few pretty music videos and not much else. The VOR could never figure out what it wanted from the coverage plan, with independent characters always trying to pull it in different directions. 
 

 

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31 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Tv coverage of sailing has never followed “the stars”, because it has never ever been driven by actual viewership, because there simply isn’t any. This is true across 99% of the world, the only exceptions being a tiny blip around Alex T and Ben A in the UK, France during the vendee, and the AC for a few weeks a year in NZ and italy. Those four items are literally the only meaningful sailing audience that ever exists for the sport. 
 

all of the above is why, as potter explained, coverage is driven by other needs than audience numbers. The exss coverage was driven by series sponsor perception and fulfillment and was always the cheapest they could get away with. The GC32 is driven by owners vanity coverage, which is why they have a few pretty music videos and not much else. The VOR could never figure out what it wanted from the coverage plan, with independent characters always trying to pull it in different directions. 
 

 

Thx Clean......I like your input because you actually did this stuff for a while.

I was actually referring to sports in general in my last line. My point on SailGP is that by perhaps they are trying to mimic that. 

You are correct though, viewership and especially TV viewership is non existent in sailing. But perhaps better for You Tube and streaming.

Anyway.....from the revenue model shared by SailGP, they place little reliance on TV rights. The revenues they forecast are city hosts and then sponsorship. The sponsorship is key which means giving an ROI to sponsors which means producing good video coverage.   It is a fragile business model to say the least. 

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I do think that the quality of the coverage is better than prior stadium series but not as good yet as last year.

Nor does it have the same resources as AC.

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18 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Thx Clean......I like your input because you actually did this stuff for a while.

I was actually referring to sports in general in my last line. My point on SailGP is that by perhaps they are trying to mimic that. 

You are correct though, viewership and especially TV viewership is non existent in sailing. But perhaps better for You Tube and streaming.

Anyway.....from the revenue model shared by SailGP, they place little reliance on TV rights. The revenues they forecast are city hosts and then sponsorship. The sponsorship is key which means giving an ROI to sponsors which means producing good video coverage.   It is a fragile business model to say the least. 

Worse than fragile.  Because of the vast disparity between revenue and expense of live coverage, such coverage is, outside that handful of exceptions, a vanity project with a patina of speculation on it, occasionally characterized by fanboys as charity done for the betterment of the sport. 
 

I worked with almost every media person in the sport at one time or another. The main reason I finally left was entirely due to the issue we are now discussing.  I finally accepted that the only way forward, at least in the US, was to continue to rely on gratuitous actions by high net worth individuals. 
 

Neither logic, nor profit, nor quality, nor prospective viewership dictates how, why, and with what resources sailing events get coverage or real production budgets. Essentially the sailing media industry relies almost entirely on the whims of rich individuals and the yacht club boards they control, which means anyone with any real talent quickly moves on to fishing or powerboat racing or real estate videography or something with an actual business model behind it. 
 

I’ve found it amusing to work now as a legal representative for some of the same people I worked with back in sailing days.  They sure do pay their invoices faster when they come from a law firm. 
 

 

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12 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

a vanity project with a patina of speculation on it, occasionally characterized by fanboys as charity done for the betterment of the sport.

 

 

Mic drop. That's a keeper, @MR.CLEAN

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

I do think that the quality of the coverage is better than prior stadium series but not as good yet as last year.

Nor does it have the same resources as AC.

You are kidding right? There are more resources for SAILGP TV than there was for the AC. 

There are new technologies being tested that meant BDA was less than smooth, but no doubt it will improve. 

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1 minute ago, Potter said:

You are kidding right? There are more resources for SAILGP TV than there was for the AC. 

There are new technologies being tested that meant BDA was less than smooth, but no doubt it will improve. 

I think you are right here!

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Worse than fragile.  Because of the vast disparity between revenue and expense of live coverage, such coverage is, outside that handful of exceptions, a vanity project with a patina of speculation on it, occasionally characterized by fanboys as charity done for the betterment of the sport. 
 

I worked with almost every media person in the sport at one time or another. The main reason I finally left was entirely due to the issue we are now discussing.  I finally accepted that the only way forward, at least in the US, was to continue to rely on gratuitous actions by high net worth individuals. 
 

Neither logic, nor profit, nor quality, nor prospective viewership dictates how, why, and with what resources sailing events get coverage or real production budgets. Essentially the sailing media industry relies almost entirely on the whims of rich individuals and the yacht club boards they control, which means anyone with any real talent quickly moves on to fishing or powerboat racing or real estate videography or something with an actual business model behind it. 
 

I’ve found it amusing to work now as a legal representative for some of the same people I worked with back in sailing days.  They sure do pay their invoices faster when they come from a law firm. 
 

 

... So we should fault them for trying? This is a chicken and egg story.

Sailing series can't get any viewership because no one knows about the sport because there isn't any good coverage or promotion of sailing because sailing series can't get any viewership. SGP is the sport's best shot to get a semblance of a foothold into the televised sport market. Sure, initially this can't be done without LE pouring copious amounts of money in, and he might not yet see any return on it, but why are complaining?

Sailors are some of the whiniest "fans" of their sport I've ever seen. Everything is wrong to someone. Start a new event, they complain. Continue an old event, they complain. I feel like some people wish sailing never progressed past the J/24.

As long as there's more sailing for us to enjoy, who cares how or why its funded? Watch till the money runs dry, and maybe, just maybe it'll become self-sustaining.

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15 minutes ago, crashtack said:

 

As long as there's more sailing for us to enjoy, who cares how or why its funded? Watch till the money runs dry, and maybe, just maybe it'll become self-sustaining.

The people who care are the several thousand people around the world whose livelihoods depend on how or why event media is funded, and those who have been working on growth and sustainability issues for decades.   
 

I don’t know anyone who has a a problem with Ellison spending the money, so I’m not sure which straw man you are arguing against. 

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9 minutes ago, crashtack said:

 

As long as there's more X for us to enjoy, who cares how or why its funded?

The bifurcation in a nutshell. 

Some care who funds things and where the money comes from.  Others don't.

 

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5 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The people who care are the several thousand people around the world whose livelihoods depend on how or why event media is funded, and those who have been worming on growth and sustainability issues for decades.   
 

I don’t know anyone who has a a problem with Ellison spending the money, so I’m not sure which straw man you are arguing against. 

Why don't you give Larry Ellison a break for once?

SailGP is watched because it's on TV while the GC32 isn't and other Series are too clumsy to get off their pot in times of COVID!

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Outstanding interview by @Mozzie with Paul Campbell-James, USA Wing Trimmer:

 

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1 hour ago, Potter said:

You are kidding right? There are more resources for SAILGP TV than there was for the AC. 

There are new technologies being tested that meant BDA was less than smooth, but no doubt it will improve. 

I was judging by what I saw in terms of televising.

AC had 2 really superb (and expensive) commentators who cost a fortune to fly onsite, Seemed to me that they had more angles . But happy to stand corrected. 

Do we know what the media resources were in sailGP vs AC.

Felt like the AC had a bit more.

Im sure operations will improve from BDA going forward.

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The people who care are the several thousand people around the world whose livelihoods depend on how or why event media is funded, and those who have been working on growth and sustainability issues for decades.   
 

I don’t know anyone who has a a problem with Ellison spending the money, so I’m not sure which straw man you are arguing against. 

The sailing media and how it is funded has changed dramatically over the last 10 years and again over the last 3 years.

Sailing Media V1 ; 1960-2003.   Sailors had an appetite for coverage about their sport primarily associated with their participation in the sport.  SW and Y&Y were full of articles by world champions and national champions with tips on how to tune the boat or get a hood start + write up of big events that happened a month ago. The closest to live media was the evening TV coverage of Australia beating Liberty earlier in the day.  But media was edited articles by sailors or traditional articles written by traditional journalists. Post event videos narrated by blue blazer sailors start to appear on TV.

V2. The internet arrives.  V1 struggles to carry on losing its share of advertising....but sites like SA arrive with dramatically lower costs and a revenue source still based on custom advertising.    OTW Anarchy does klutzy but enjoyable live coverage.  Videos move to internet. Magazines thrash around in death throes for  another 15 years. Sub stage , google starts providing ad revenue rather than having to solely rely on finding advertisers but advertising is still the revenue source

v3.  We want it for free. We expect well prepared live video action on You Tube etc, and we do not expect to pay for it in any way shape or form. We restrict our privacy permissions so that we dont receive ads  from google and complain like hell if the production quality is below par.    The only source of real scale revenue for media professionals is billionaire funding.  The smart ones see the writing on the wall, get out while the going is good...have kids with a wonderful woman and dust off the law degree.

I realize this is a gross and inaccurate over simplification......but  it the sfift from ads paying for 90% of content to ads paying for 50% of content and event promoters paying for 50% is something I sense.

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8 minutes ago, Nauti Buoy said:

Coming from someone who joined after Larry’s reign, lol. 

Has his reign ended? 

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The people who care are the several thousand people around the world whose livelihoods depend on how or why event media is funded, and those who have been working on growth and sustainability issues for decades.   
 

I don’t know anyone who has a a problem with Ellison spending the money, so I’m not sure which straw man you are arguing against. 

So you're unhappy that LE's platform/funding doesn't allow journalists to subsist off of it?

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Its very similar to the European Superleague controversy. A few billionaires come in, start a breakaway competition, and throw copious amounts of cash at the worlds best teams/ players to get involved. The difference is football has a much larger, much more passionate and vocal audience that aren’t afraid to voice their opinions, and have, and now its not happening. No doubt the new series would have been fun to watch, enjoyable, entertaining, more football to watch for football fans, but its the same premise, billionaires throwing cash around trying to start a new league.

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6 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Its very similar to the European Superleague controversy. A few billionaires come in, start a breakaway competition, and throw copious amounts of cash at the worlds best teams/ players to get involved. The difference is football has a much larger, much more passionate and vocal audience that aren’t afraid to voice their opinions, and have, and now its not happening. No doubt the new series would have been fun to watch, enjoyable, entertaining, more football to watch for football fans, but its the same premise, billionaires throwing cash around trying to start a new league.

I don’t think SailGP prevents these sailors from competing in other events the way Super League took them out of their other leagues. Otherwise most of the skippers wouldn’t be there. 

Also this is different than the super league because this is what would have existed if anyone else won in Bermuda, the Cup itself has great change built in, can’t cry tradition like with soccer. 
 

SailGP is closer to if all the teams stayed in their league but also decided to play super league teams during the off season for fun and their own little side trophy which didn’t mean anything and didn’t take anything away from the rest of the sport.

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10 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

came out of Bermuda 35th AC.    It had always been LE and RC's dream to have a series in the AC 50 going forward, unrelated to the cup itself.  If they had won the cup, the cup would have been in the same

I think you are forgetting the framework wherein the AC would have become a series in the 50's going forward.

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41 minutes ago, barfy said:

I think you are forgetting the framework wherein the AC would have become a series in the 50's going forward.

It was the framework I was referring to.   The Sail GP series or equivalent was conceived well before Oracle lost the cup, so its hard to say the series was designed as revenge. LE/RC just decided to go ahead with it anyway. Sorry if my post was condfusing.  My understanding is that there would have been an AC50 series but the cup would still have been a separate match between defender and challenger.   I believe the series would have counted somehow towards the challenger series.  But my memory is fast fading

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3 hours ago, crashtack said:

So you're unhappy that LE's platform/funding doesn't allow journalists to subsist off of it?

Who are you talking to? Nothing I wrote has the slightest relationship to my happiness or the lack thereof.   

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1 minute ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Who are you talking to? Nothing I wrote has the slightest relationship to my happiness or the lack thereof.   

"Neither logic, nor profit, nor quality, nor prospective viewership dictates how, why, and with what resources sailing events get coverage or real production budgets."

"...anyone with any real talent quickly moves on to ... something with an actual business model behind it."

"I’ve found it amusing to work now as a legal representative for some of the same people I worked with back in sailing days.  They sure do pay their invoices faster when they come from a law firm."

 

call me crazy, but that reads like the writings of someone who is not very happy about the subject at hand

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22 minutes ago, crashtack said:

"Neither logic, nor profit, nor quality, nor prospective viewership dictates how, why, and with what resources sailing events get coverage or real production budgets."

"...anyone with any real talent quickly moves on to ... something with an actual business model behind it."

"I’ve found it amusing to work now as a legal representative for some of the same people I worked with back in sailing days.  They sure do pay their invoices faster when they come from a law firm."

 

call me crazy, but that reads like the writings of someone who is not very happy about the subject at hand

Clean has had the good fortune to have at least 2 chapters to his working life.  He seemed happy in sailing media traveling the world with his photographer wife.  He had a good time and a lot of laughs. I met him at Charleston .  Now he seems happy and excited as a Dad and lawyer making a living with his grey cells.

Everyone should have at least two chapters.

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On 4/28/2021 at 5:57 PM, EYESAILOR said:

I really enjoyed SailGP so this is not intended as criticism but lets create a wish list for things we would like to see upgraded.

This is for those of us who enjoyed it and think it provides exciting competition between some of the best sailors in the world, not a list for those who think it is crap and a circus etc.

I will start the ball rolling:

1. I found some of the overhead angles shots difficult to see who was lifted headed because we were looking down the course vs overhead . Still fun shots but more overheads so we can see the overtakes develop due to pressure and headings.  Perhaps with the ladder lines a bit more.YES.I think they will be able to improve production on the racing - despite it being season II, it just seemed a lot more cluttered with the 8 boats. it's "only" two more boats, but the water between them seems to have diminished rapidly.

2. Include a bit more of the prestart. We tend to arrive in the starting area with only 20-30 seconds to go. I would love to see them position themselves and when they pull the trigger.

YES. although i think this might be from the sailing guru perspective. The general public might unfortunately find this boring if it's not done well. We have to accept that this product will only work if it goes mainstream, and i guess all the non sailors need to know is that a good start is ~70% of the race.

I watch a lot of pro cycling, and the analogue here is a sprint finish. There is SO much happening in position and timing that you can only really appreciate it with replays in slowmo and overhead shots. The problem here is that this is the start...so you have live action competing with it. The youtube vid of all the startsis all action but could have more insight than just the live segments patched together 

3. A few more of the comms. yes, but how? 8 boats and you're winging this live

4. Speed in knots....simply because thats what im used to but I expect i will gradually pick up knts/hour Agreed, I don't like this decision being made for us, at least it is not mph! I think it comes from the need for commentators always needing to convert kts to mph/kph on the fly. If we're going to get mainstream viewing, it needs to be in a metric they can relate to. I don't know if there will ever be a way back though.  (ps. knts/hr = acceleration, not speed - which sort of highlights how confusing it is for diehards)

 

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Phil Robertson responded to my (polite) email about using kph instead of knots, following a reprint of his article in Sail-World posted a few days ago :

" Hi Max, 

Glad you enjoyed the read. There is a lot more that goes on than meets the eye! 
 
Kts vs Km/h....haha sorry about that. We showed up to Bermuda and got told that our world had changed to Km/h. The idea behind it is SailGP wants to reach a wider audience and the change to km/h will help people understand speeds better. 
Unfortunately I can't do a lot about it and have had to move all my targets and numbers over to km/h. 
You'll get used to it eventually... 
 
Thanks
Phil "
 
Keep emailing contact@sailgp.com, and point out they're just promoting ignorance. I've no problem with commentators occasionally giving the unfamiliar a kph comparison, but not replacing knots with kph.
 
Be cool if every non-SailGP commentator kept asking "what's that in knots" when kph is used. :D
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16 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Worse than fragile.  Because of the vast disparity between revenue and expense of live coverage, such coverage is, outside that handful of exceptions, a vanity project with a patina of speculation on it, occasionally characterized by fanboys as charity done for the betterment of the sport. 
 

I worked with almost every media person in the sport at one time or another. The main reason I finally left was entirely due to the issue we are now discussing.  I finally accepted that the only way forward, at least in the US, was to continue to rely on gratuitous actions by high net worth individuals. 
 

Neither logic, nor profit, nor quality, nor prospective viewership dictates how, why, and with what resources sailing events get coverage or real production budgets. Essentially the sailing media industry relies almost entirely on the whims of rich individuals and the yacht club boards they control, which means anyone with any real talent quickly moves on to fishing or powerboat racing or real estate videography or something with an actual business model behind it. 
 

I’ve found it amusing to work now as a legal representative for some of the same people I worked with back in sailing days.  They sure do pay their invoices faster when they come from a law firm. 
 

 

 

I'm guessing the 18footers in the 90s was probably the high point in sailing TV viewership actually paying for a product on an organic funding model (ie. revenue => cost). The olympics has probably got better with medal races occasionally creating some drama.

everything since has been a "vanity project". Even the AC34 in San Fran was fully free to air on youtube, seems ETNZ scrubbed the channel and reuploaded archived footage, but here are the figures at the time

  • YouTube videos of the races has surpassed 25 million views

For the "greatest comeback in sports", that's nothing to get excited about. I know it's been tried before, but with Larry bankrolling SailGP it probably has the best opportunity to create a truly self funding circuit. F1 racing generates revenue from venue hosting rights + TV/broadcast +sponsorship + spectator/hosting - most of this is possible with SailGP, and i don't think a solid broadcast deal is solely what makes it viable. I see a distinct possibility where SailGP matures to a circuit that washes it's face and Larry sells it off the right consortium to take it on commercially. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, shebeen said:

I'm guessing the 18footers in the 90s was probably the high point in sailing TV viewership actually paying for a product on an organic funding model (ie. revenue => cost)

Yep, you are spot on.

Real sailing, no bullshit, best sailors win.

Downhill rapidly after that.

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1 minute ago, Randro said:

Yep, you are spot on.

Real sailing, no bullshit, best sailors win.

Downhill rapidly after that.

not really.

cutting edge sailing boats

sponsors naming a boat/team and getting a return

BUT - it never truly went global, so by being profitable in a home market it was manageable (but it didn't last once the novelty wore off)

 

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1 minute ago, shebeen said:

BUT - it never truly went global, so by being profitable in a home market it was manageable (but it didn't last once the novelty wore off)

Who gives a fuck about 'global'?

Who gives a fuck about 'profitable'?

Oh, sorry, bean counters and people who are already rich?   I forgot, sorry.

I don't go sailing for money, maybe that's why I have this fucked-up view.

 

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43 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Phil Robertson responded to my (polite) email about using kph instead of knots, following a reprint of his article in Sail-World posted a few days ago :

" Hi Max, 

Glad you enjoyed the read. There is a lot more that goes on than meets the eye! 
 
Kts vs Km/h....haha sorry about that. We showed up to Bermuda and got told that our world had changed to Km/h. The idea behind it is SailGP wants to reach a wider audience and the change to km/h will help people understand speeds better. 
Unfortunately I can't do a lot about it and have had to move all my targets and numbers over to km/h. 
You'll get used to it eventually... 
 
Thanks
Phil "
 
Keep emailing contact@sailgp.com, and point out they're just promoting ignorance. I've no problem with commentators occasionally giving the unfamiliar a kph comparison, but not replacing knots with kph.
 
Be cool if every non-SailGP commentator kept asking "what's that in knots" when kph is used. :D

I just sent them the following:

Quote

Please put speed in knots instead of km/h (!)

It’s not hard to understand, even for non sailors.

Best regards,
Every sailor on planet earth

 

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2 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

Phil Robertson responded to my (polite) email about using kph instead of knots, following a reprint of his article in Sail-World posted a few days ago :

" Hi Max, 

Glad you enjoyed the read. There is a lot more that goes on than meets the eye! 
 
Kts vs Km/h....haha sorry about that. We showed up to Bermuda and got told that our world had changed to Km/h. The idea behind it is SailGP wants to reach a wider audience and the change to km/h will help people understand speeds better. 
Unfortunately I can't do a lot about it and have had to move all my targets and numbers over to km/h. 
You'll get used to it eventually... 
 
Thanks
Phil "
 
Keep emailing contact@sailgp.com, and point out they're just promoting ignorance. I've no problem with commentators occasionally giving the unfamiliar a kph comparison, but not replacing knots with kph.
 
Be cool if every non-SailGP commentator kept asking "what's that in knots" when kph is used. :D

Nuts. But trying to reach a wider audience you create three new problems:

-you are likely to loose your core (and only) audience

- speed in km/h tends to be quite slow compared to any car out there. 50 knots sounds like vow, 92 km/h like mehhh

- what about the Americans using miles per hour?!?? They don’t understand km/h either. 


as a compromise, let’s put both speeds out there on screen, knots and km/h (and mph !)

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3 minutes ago, JeronimoII said:

Nuts. But trying to reach a wider audience you create three new problems:

-you are likely to loose your core (and only) audience

- speed in km/h tends to be quite slow compared to any car out there. 50 knots sounds like vow, 92 km/h like mehhh

Someone in marketing seriously fucked up/

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