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Just now, MaxHugen said:

IIRC, in Bermuda was over the sideline by 1cm?   Sheesh!

Nominal resolution is 2 cm, if it is the same set-up that first appeared in SF in 2013.

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I had to stop and take a photo of this today (not like I'm pushed for time during lockdown ). Looks like my youngest likes SailGP. Perhaps the boats are just easier to build with lego than the foiling

Some of you are truly amusing. Let's start with a simple truth. This event was probably the best televised sailing I have ever seen. Sure, there is room for improvement but the racing was epic, t

i didnt bag the ac dipshit. quite strangely you identify yourself with that event and you feel like if someone bags on you, that means the event. i thought it was good. you on the other hand must be f

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4 minutes ago, accnick said:

Nominal resolution is 2 cm, if it is the same set-up that first appeared in SF in 2013.

OK.  Normally GPS is about 30cm accurate, but when they use Differential GPS like in Bermuda - which includes one or more land based stations as a cross reference - they're very accurate.

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18 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

 Perfectly executed, Chapeau TNZ !

 

Perfectly executed, yes, smart ? No. Nathan was right to push a contender to the final and was proven right by the going to the finals and winning it.

On the other end NZL was wrong to do it as they were too far in the ranking for the final, in pushing a boat that was not leading at that time (even though they might have a chance to reach the final I think) they let others pass them, while they should have sailed their course. By doing so the let the door open to Japan, Aus, Den and even Spa.

That said, the Swizz guy did much better than the kiwi "best sailor of the world" as some claim here.

 

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16 minutes ago, accnick said:

the OCS should show up on the individual boat at the right time

yes, hopefully the readouts on the boats are accurate! Yikes..

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3 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

That said, the Swizz guy did much better than the kiwi "best sailor of the world" as some claim here.

Even the best sailors need a lot of practice time to get any sailboat to perform at it's optimum constantly throughout a race - and the SailGP schedule just doesn't give them much time for that.

It may be some time until we start to really see who shines the brightest!

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1 hour ago, MaxHugen said:

Even the best sailors need a lot of practice time to get any sailboat to perform at it's optimum constantly throughout a race - and the SailGP schedule just doesn't give them much time for that.

It may be some time until we start to really see who shines the brightest!

In fact, I don't think it is Peter Burling, not even the training on the boat, but more specifically the tuning and the setting of the boat. FRA had the same problem and now found it, NZL probably found it in Italy, I suspect AUS still has a small advance about settings in strong winds.

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50 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

In fact, I don't think it is Peter Burling, not even the training on the boat, but more specifically the tuning and the setting of the boat. FRA had the same problem and now found it, NZL probably found it in Italy, I suspect AUS still has a small advance about settings in strong winds.

Sure, although extra time on the boats helps a lot. A fraction higher or lower on the foils, for less leeway vs more drag.... getting the amount of flap twist just right... and so on.

I'm expecting all the boats to improve in strong winds as they master the smaller 18m rig. Doubt that they've hit the "cavitation wall' yet in a straight burst, but hopefully we'll get some wild sailing down the track. Might see them get to 55 knots?  Yee-haa!  :D

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16 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Sure, although extra time on the boats helps a lot. A fraction higher or lower on the foils, for less leeway vs more drag.... getting the amount of flap twist just right... and so on.

I'm expecting all the boats to improve in strong winds as they master the smaller 18m rig. Doubt that they've hit the "cavitation wall' yet in a straight burst, but hopefully we'll get some wild sailing down the track. Might see them get to 55 knots?  Yee-haa!  :D

Small wings, I think they will also get smaller foils for strong winds, and they smash the 55 kts, or 100 km/h as they say !

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8 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

And they say, 'what goes around comes around'. Can't imagine Phil playing nice after that.

Was he playing nice before? Does anyone, at this level, "play nice"?

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Interesting how all the chat seems to be about the job/spn start. If you watch the highlights of the Bermuda starts you can see that Phil was eventually going to get the door closed on him.

I thought the penalty on nzl/gbr was of a much bigger consequence. Couldn't see it much on the feed but looks like they ducked and gbr didn't need to alter course. And then nzl didn't get the coms and the penalty increased. 

 

It really is time for penalties to be administered in a less macguyver way

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7 hours ago, Forourselves said:

And youre making out that Burling and Tuke are shit sailors who only had a boat speed advantage in the AC and cant win shit without it so STFU you self righteous prick.

Current evidence would support that position.. ;-) 

plus the Swiss chap was sailing short handed unlike Pete who had the full compliment of crew 

 

no Pete and Blair are not shit sailors. They did a shit job in comparison to a newbie to the class and boat type , who sailed short handed and managed a better finish. 
 

that’s the truth of it. 
 

you can’t give credit where it is due. 
 

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6 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Current evidence would support that position.. ;-) 

plus the Swiss chap was sailing short handed unlike Pete who had the full compliment of crew 

 

no Pete and Blair are not shit sailors. They did a shit job in comparison to a newbie to the class and boat type , who sailed short handed and managed a better finish. 
 

that’s the truth of it. 
 

you can’t give credit where it is due. 
 

They did a perfectly acceptable job under the circumstances (Brand new boat, no sea trials, no practice time).

I can give credit where its due, Psarofaghis is a great sailor who did a great job.

Guys like Spithill, Besson and Slingsby did a shit job in comparison to the newbies to the class.

 

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11 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

They did a perfectly acceptable job under the circumstances (Brand new boat, no sea trials, no practice time).

I can give credit where its due, Psarofaghis is a great sailor who did a great job.

Guys like Spithill, Besson and Slingsby did a shit job in comparison to the newbies to the class.

 

More complete bullshit. Please explain how Jimmy did a shit job. He was the best in the fleet for most of the weekend. Yes, Slingers had a shocker - he's never been any good in light winds in any boat but he also didn't have  a key crew member (Jason Waterhouse is on day 10 of quarantine here in Australia).

What you seem to ignore is that Burling had spent years sailing AC50's while Psarofaghis had never sailed one. He didn't much more practice than Burling. He also had to work out how to sail 3 handed. But for me, the real difference wasn't just about sailing the type of boat. For reasons I don't really understand, Burling made some really basic errors, some more than once, errors that I would have bet a lot of money that he wouldn't have made. Overall, Psarofaghis made Burling's efforts look second rate. 

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11 minutes ago, SimonN said:

More complete bullshit. Please explain how Jimmy did a shit job. He was the best in the fleet for most of the weekend. Yes, Slingers had a shocker - he's never been any good in light winds in any boat but he also didn't have  a key crew member (Jason Waterhouse is on day 10 of quarantine here in Australia).

What you seem to ignore is that Burling had spent years sailing AC50's while Psarofaghis had never sailed one. He didn't much more practice than Burling. He also had to work out how to sail 3 handed. But for me, the real difference wasn't just about sailing the type of boat. For reasons I don't really understand, Burling made some really basic errors, some more than once, errors that I would have bet a lot of money that he wouldn't have made. Overall, Psarofaghis made Burling's efforts look second rate. 

I suppose this direct comparison was obvious, but it's very tacky - there is way more than just the skipper driving. Turling did win the AC in bermuda on a similar boat in 2017, but to fly in and jump on a boat that was still getting pieced together was always going to be tough no matter who you were.

In Taranto the conditions were light, and since Psarofaghis seems to be the best GC32 skipper out there, this was probably a fortuitous time for him to slot in - let's see how NZ goes in plymouth. and post olympics Turling will surely work it out by the end of the series.

One thing is for sure Arnaud definitely put his name out there this weekend, and could well get a ride on bigger boats from this performance. 

 

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PR startline technique Bermuda

Race 1 - windward end with space, 2nd round the reach mark.

Race 2 - leeward in the pack, gets slotted

Race 3 - see race 2

DAY2

race 4 - windward, flying but OCS

race 5 - windward, no space so barges into a non existent gap - right of way France gives room. penalty spain (double when he ignores it and keeps on giving france dirty air).

 

not a good return there. and the 5th race (6:00) is really bad seamanship. BUT obviously they reviewed this all, and still decided it was a good idea. I think NO did everyone a favour by shutting the door

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37 minutes ago, SimonN said:

More complete bullshit. Please explain how Jimmy did a shit job. He was the best in the fleet for most of the weekend. Yes, Slingers had a shocker - he's never been any good in light winds in any boat but he also didn't have  a key crew member (Jason Waterhouse is on day 10 of quarantine here in Australia).

What you seem to ignore is that Burling had spent years sailing AC50's while Psarofaghis had never sailed one. He didn't much more practice than Burling. He also had to work out how to sail 3 handed. But for me, the real difference wasn't just about sailing the type of boat. For reasons I don't really understand, Burling made some really basic errors, some more than once, errors that I would have bet a lot of money that he wouldn't have made. Overall, Psarofaghis made Burling's efforts look second rate. 

I agree that Psarofaghis did a great job for a someone new to the GP50, the errors made by Burling were pretty basic, maybe he forgot that he wasn't sailing an AC75 which has much better windward ability than the GP50.

The hydraulic problems might have something to do with the other errors.

Some of their 

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

They did a perfectly acceptable job under the circumstances (Brand new boat, no sea trials, no practice time).

I can give credit where its due, Psarofaghis is a great sailor who did a great job.

Guys like Spithill, Besson and Slingsby did a shit job in comparison to the newbies to the class.

 

Hitting a submerged object and killing the boat on the way to what would have been a dominant win, is a shit job? 
 

You didn’t even watch the event and you are making claims about the sailors ability. Idiot troll 

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12 hours ago, crashtack said:

anyone else a bit confused by the start timing and OCS penalties? In race 5, JS got an OCS penalty despite appearing to be behind the line at the gun. In fact, even the little "P" flag that shows up on the overlay started to appear before the line even turned white on the broadcast:

https://puu.sh/HN3Op/9100b16501.jpg

Especially comparing it with JS' race 6 start, it seems really strange.:

https://puu.sh/HN3K6/47e72f895b.jpg

 

I did a little video of race start strategies and noticed a small discrepancy between the countdown clock and line turning white which doesn't seem to be consistent. 
 

From the way the boats were behaving I think the line turning white is a better indication of 'start' than the clock graphic. 

I think the P can show up before the gun though, but in the first of your pictures he does look behind still... but maybe not if you take a line between the back edge of the marks rather than where the automatized graphics have drawn the red line.   

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57 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Hitting a submerged object and killing the boat on the way to what would have been a dominant win, is a shit job? 
 

You didn’t even watch the event and you are making claims about the sailors ability. Idiot troll 

How can i watch the event when they dont put it on you tube!? Second, oh well, guess they shouldnt have hit something then ay! Guaranteed if Burling had hit something youd say he did a shit job too, so whos the troll? You ya fucking idiot! 

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2 hours ago, SimonN said:

More complete bullshit. Please explain how Jimmy did a shit job. He was the best in the fleet for most of the weekend. Yes, Slingers had a shocker - he's never been any good in light winds in any boat but he also didn't have  a key crew member (Jason Waterhouse is on day 10 of quarantine here in Australia).

What you seem to ignore is that Burling had spent years sailing AC50's while Psarofaghis had never sailed one. He didn't much more practice than Burling. He also had to work out how to sail 3 handed. But for me, the real difference wasn't just about sailing the type of boat. For reasons I don't really understand, Burling made some really basic errors, some more than once, errors that I would have bet a lot of money that he wouldn't have made. Overall, Psarofaghis made Burling's efforts look second rate. 

If you and idiot hazmatroll can say Burling did a shit job in Bermuda than the same can be said about Jimmy in bermuda and Taranto. Burling was handed a brand new untested boat with no sea trials and one day practice. For the idiots who say he spent years on an AC50, and? That just goes to show how much better the ETNZ control system was to the POS system on the F50. Burling and Tuke are about silverware, not some one off bragging rights regatta. All that matters is the trophy, and theyre within grasp of it. 

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On 6/6/2021 at 9:55 PM, crashtack said:

How is it that Rockwool's brand videos have more views than SGP itself? I guess the efforts to get the sponsor game going have been successful

It's probably been run as an advert or paid for views. I.e. the channel pay for it to be shown before other peoples videos and these will count as views. It's only got a 70% like ratio and tonnes or spam comments. 

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4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

How can i watch the event when they dont put it on you tube!? Second, oh well, guess they shouldnt have hit something then ay! Guaranteed if Burling had hit something youd say he did a shit job too, so whos the troll? You ya fucking idiot! 

Same way you CLAIMED you watched the first event? Aw you tell so many lies you can’t remember can you.. 
 

avoid something you can’t see? Yeah that’s totally his fault..  And if pistol had hit it? it would’ve been shit luck too. 
 

old Swiss Greek bloke is nearly a kiwi now ( magic silver fern) when’s GD gonna call him up? 

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21 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Same way you CLAIMED you watched the first event? Aw you tell so many lies you can’t remember can you.. 
 

avoid something you can’t see? Yeah that’s totally his fault..  And if pistol had hit it? it would’ve been shit luck too. 
 

old Swiss Greek bloke is nearly a kiwi now ( magic silver fern) when’s GD gonna call him up? 

I didnt watch the first event, but i cant help it if its all over my freakin FB and IG news feeds!

Maybe you shouldve just said Burling had shit luck in Bermuda too then. A brand new boat that was untested and ended up with hydraulic issues. Not his fault either. But consistency has never been your strongpoint.

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On 4/28/2021 at 6:26 AM, Forourselves said:

In all seriousness, as much of an AC fan that I am, I watched the Bermuda SailGP event, and I did so with an open mind, and I tried as hard as I could to be objective about the racing.

So, the Kiwi team - uncharacteristically off the pace. To be expected with a brand new, untested boat with no sailing hours on their own boat. We all know how fast they learn, and they'll be top 4 easily by the the time the Lyttleton event comes around. 

The racing itself - everyone goes on about how epic it is to have 8 boats in the race, and it is, on the first leg. After that it just becomes chaos, and I find myself focusing on who is leading and who is in second, and whether the leader can stay in front, or whether the 2nd place boat can catch the leader. The chasing pack is just that, the chasing pack. Its like the Peloton in cycling. People only care about the first and second place competitors. Maybe 3rd, but the rest just become background noise. Even the commentary focuses far more on Slingsby and Outteridge, and they hardly mention Sehested and Robertson. 

So I come back to the fact that, in a race, the only positions that really matter, are the front positions, so the other positions and the other action becomes redundant. The commentators talk about a maneuver on a boat that isn't even in the picture, so who really cares about a maneuver thats not seen?

For me, its about the top two, the others are background, so I only need the two boats on the course, which is why I prefer boat on boat, one on one in a tactical race combined with speed. The problem with SailGP doing that is the courses are setup for multiple boats, so the course looks far too big and the boats far too small on the SailGP course by themselves.

Where is the VMG of the boats in SailGP? In the AC, because there's only 2 boats on the course, VMG is often one of the main speeds displayed. In the AC, its about combining speed over the ground with tactics and VMG towards the mark. The modes of the boats become important, staying in phase with the wind shifts, and the ability of one boat to employ better tactics than the other.

Subtleties are key to the Americas Cup where SailGP is all about speed, chaos and carnage. Its basic and "dumbed down" because of the SailGP target audience.

In the AC, the pre start maneuvers are far more exciting in the AC, the push and shove, who leads back and who follows, where in SailGP its all about picking a lane and time and distance to the start.

For Me, the key factors of SailGP are far too based in reality TV than real yacht racing. Its go fast, seat of the pants, chaos and carnage, extreme racing. Its not interesting, its fascinating, and its (for lack of a better word) intelligent.

VMG isn't important in SailGP, subtleties are replaced with chaos, boat speeds are converted to Kph FFS! 

Its extreme, its fast, its chaos, its epic, but its reality TV, its not yacht racing. 

 

 

Oh dear 4

hoisted by your own petard...

no one likes a liar. 

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22 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

I didnt watch the first event, but i cant help it if its all over my freakin FB and IG news feeds!

Maybe you shouldve just said Burling had shit luck in Bermuda too then. A brand new boat that was untested and ended up with hydraulic issues. Not his fault either. But consistency has never been your strongpoint.

 

Just now, JALhazmat said:

Oh dear 4

hoisted by your own petard...

no one likes a liar. 

 

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6 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Small wings, I think they will also get smaller foils for strong winds, and they smash the 55 kts, or 100 km/h as they say !

I'm not 100% sure, but I think they already have a smaller set.

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3 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Hitting a submerged object and killing the boat on the way to what would have been a dominant win, is a shit job? 
 

You didn’t even watch the event and you are making claims about the sailors ability. Idiot troll 

JAL, if you keep quoting Fselves, I am going to have to put you on ignore as well.  Just put him on ignore .

It is quite refreshing when his posts disappear.

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2 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

I did a little video of race start strategies and noticed a small discrepancy between the countdown clock and line turning white which doesn't seem to be consistent. 
 

From the way the boats were behaving I think the line turning white is a better indication of 'start' than the clock graphic. 

I think the P can show up before the gun though, but in the first of your pictures he does look behind still... but maybe not if you take a line between the back edge of the marks rather than where the automatized graphics have drawn the red line.   

Looking fwd to your video

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I am presuming the US team hit a dolphin. Is that good or not for their green credentials? Should sail gp think more like the Tuna companies and go dolphin friendly? The fake enviro thing does not wash with anyone....

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4 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

I did a little video of race start strategies and noticed a small discrepancy between the countdown clock and line turning white which doesn't seem to be consistent. 
 

From the way the boats were behaving I think the line turning white is a better indication of 'start' than the clock graphic. 

I think the P can show up before the gun though, but in the first of your pictures he does look behind still... but maybe not if you take a line between the back edge of the marks rather than where the automatized graphics have drawn the red line.   

I think this has been explained somewhere else. The overlay can be inaccurate at times if not all the time. On another note i am missing BA not being at GP. It has lost some of its spice. I also think it shows that BA despite advancing years is still in the top 3 helmsmen in the world if not number one.

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2 hours ago, dullers said:

I am presuming the US team hit a dolphin. Is that good or not for their green credentials? Should sail gp think more like the Tuna companies and go dolphin friendly? The fake enviro thing does not wash with anyone....

That was my initial guess too, a dolphin. Taranto does have a lot of them although they mostly hang out a few miles up the coast from where the port is.

But if you watch that onboard video from when the impact happened approaching the bottom mark, listen to the bang, see how violently two of the crew get lurched, I’m now guessing it was something else, something much harder, something man-made. 

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34 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

That was my initial guess too, a dolphin. Taranto does have a lot of them although they mostly hang out a few miles up the coast from where the port is.

But if you watch that onboard video from when the impact happened approaching the bottom mark, listen to the bang, see how violently two of the crew get lurched, I’m now guessing it was something else, something much harder, something man-made. 

I agree it was unlikely a Dolphin. However I dont think we can deduce it was not a dolphin from the video. Hitting a dolphin at foiling speed would be a hard impact and make a big bang. 

They say it broke the stbd rudder but after they round the mark and try and get going, I can clearly see the stbd rudder as the hull lifts off but they cannot get speed. So I assume that the rudder tip or rudder foils broke off?

This suggests the object was submerged.

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^From a video of the aftermath it took the hit about 2/3 of the way down the blade and sheared off just under the upper bearing (ie inside the hull)

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On 6/7/2021 at 7:07 AM, EYESAILOR said:

However there is something Im missing in the scoring.

Scoring, who gives a fuck?

The finals race format makes scoring of the actual 5 race regatta irrelevant!

So, you're not missing anything!

 

 

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1 minute ago, nav said:

^From a video of the aftermath it took the hit about 2/3 of the way down the blade and sheared off just under the upper bearing (ie inside the hull)

Yes. Maybe the rudder stayed 'on' despite the shear due to up-force on the blades; but of course it wouldn't work properly when they needed it to.

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1 hour ago, Liquid said:

Scoring, who gives a fuck?

The finals race format makes scoring of the actual 5 race regatta irrelevant!

So, you're not missing anything!

 

 

The scoring of the  first 5 races is turning out to be very relevant.

  The final 6th race in each event only determines positions 1 thru 3. Positions 4 thru 8 are determined by the first 5 races.

Thus far in the series. No single boat has made it to all the finals, so every boat is counting scores 4 thru 8 as determined in the first 5 races.

Spain is leading because it finished 4th in the 1st 5 races in Bermuda . Of all the boats that made it to the final, it has the best result when it didnt finish in the final.

There are no discards, so when the series gets to the end, the final 3 for the $1 million shoot out (a lot of money for professional sailors), is going to depend on some scores from 4-8 as well as 1-3. 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

The scoring of the  first 5 races is turning out to be very relevant.

  The final 6th race in each event only determines positions 1 thru 3. Positions 4 thru 8 are determined by the first 5 races.

Thus far in the series. No single boat has made it to all the finals, so every boat is counting scores 4 thru 8 as determined in the first 5 races.

Spain is leading because it finished 4th in the 1st 5 races in Bermuda . Of all the boats that made it to the final, it has the best result when it didnt finish in the final.

There are no discards, so when the series gets to the end, the final 3 for the $1 million shoot out (a lot of money for professional sailors), is going to depend on some scores from 4-8 as well as 1-3. 

 

 

...cause everybody remembers who comes in 4th or even 2nd?

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Who will be in the final three at SF?

 

Spain -  Leading on points after two events , one quarter the way through the series. Phil Robertson has been the surprise dark horse. He doesnt have the star power of the AC helms and his young crew dont have Olympic medals, nor have they (crew) competed in the F50s before.  But Phil +Team Spain  have been remarkably consistent finishing 4th and 2nd. In the racing they have done remarkably well coming back towards the end of the races.  Downside: Phil hands over the helm after the Olympic Games to spanish driver Jordi Xammar, and I think they will miss the experience and tactical aggressiveness of Phil. Unfortunately, I think Spain fades after Plymouth and doesnt make the final cut.

GBR - An early favorite. Love him or hate him, Ben Ainslie is one of the most successful and determined one design sailors of all time.  He has won the two Sail GP events he entered, although the Bermuda event, it was a close call as to whether he would make the final three. The highly regarded "Goody" is covering for Ben for 2 events and has not put up the same numbers, so GBR are currently lying in 2nd place and lucky to be there due to the misfortune of other key players.  Nevertheless , this is one of my picks for the final three provided Ben gives the series the attention it needs 

The Misfortune Trio:

1. Top of the list for the misfortune Trio must be Jimmy Spitbull and Team USA.

In the first event in Bermuda, they were taken out of the competition by Team Japan on Port.   Scored DSQ, due to a perceived rule 14 infringement, they left Bermuda bottom of the table.  Before this occurred they were in the running for final 3 or 4th.

In the 2nd event in Italy, they were in 1st place with a decent lead entering the final upwind leg when they hit a submerged object and had to retire, taking 3rd instead of 1st.

Lying in 7th place , they are 3 points out of qualifying for 3rd. They can make that up, but points get tougher as crews get better. They sailed well , deserve to be in the final. They will be a contender for the final but they have some points to make up

2. Australia.  The   first shalt be last and the last shalt be first. Tom Slingsby dominated in the Bermuda first phase winning 4 out of 5 races, only to be beaten by Ben in the final,  Then in Italy, technical problems on the first day and a series of terrible calls + ongoing technical issues on the second day caused them to finish last .   Memories of the China Olympics came back when Tom started losing, he went down hill and lost his confidence. I dont think this happens here. Alongside Nathan O, Tom is the most committed helm in the series, an Australian actually sailing for Team Australia.  The boat will be fixed and Tom will be competitive. I think he makes the final three but there are five who should make the final three.

3. Japan.  Japan should not be in the misfortune club, because the crash between Japan and USA was really Nathan's fault as he is first to acknowledge. But his score would be higher if it had not happened. Lady Luck also smiles on Nathan when it gave him victory in Italy after Jimmy's boat failed.   Nathan is committed. He is very fast, He should make the final three but so should Ben, Tom, Pete and Jimmy.

France :   Billy Besson will win races and will win make the event finals more than once. I dont think he makes the final three

Denmark : Excellent and surprisingly good result in Italy finishing 5th. But I think that is as good as it gets and they dont make the final three.

New Zealand : Pete is away for two events and didnt do so great in Bermuda.  But he has a very strong team and is a genuine talent.  His substitute helm is doing really well.  I rank NZ as one of the top 5 contenders for the 3 slots.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Liquid said:

...cause everybody remembers who comes in 4th or even 2nd?

In order to come first, you have to be scoring 4ths and 2nds,  not 1sts and 8ths,

Phil R is leading the series with a 4th and a 2nd.

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11 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

I did a little video of race start strategies and noticed a small discrepancy between the countdown clock and line turning white which doesn't seem to be consistent. 
 

From the way the boats were behaving I think the line turning white is a better indication of 'start' than the clock graphic. 

I think the P can show up before the gun though, but in the first of your pictures he does look behind still... but maybe not if you take a line between the back edge of the marks rather than where the automatized graphics have drawn the red line.   

So I took a screenshot of the first frame of the youtube broadcast that the "P" starts appearing on Team USA (which I would assume still happens with a delay). I couldn't find the SGP rulebook or sailing instructions, so I don't know whether the starting line is defined from the back edge of the marks or from the little masts that stick up from them, but it seems unlikely that the former would be the case as the marks can rotate.

Anyways, at the moment the "P" is shown, USA (red line) is behind the masts (green) but in front of the back plane of the marks (yellow). The only thing I can think of that would explain this is that the broadcast lags behind actual events (obviously), but the broadcast overlay doesn't lag (or lags less) in regards to RC/umpire inputs and decisions - so we find out that JS is over before he actually crosses the line on our screens. That, or there was a mistake made, but I would expect the teams to pick up on that.

image.thumb.png.a448be7b807572fc0971b9c9ae0ed17b.png

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Nathan even gave the boat a little tweak to windward after the gun , only bearing away to his proper course 3-4 seconds after the gun.   Clear rule breach IMHO. Surprised Phil didnt jump on that and protest,

1528806737_Japan3.thumb.JPG.11aba553091a36cadd355163e85bd9f6.JPG

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1 minute ago, crashtack said:

Proper course? how?

Japan's proper course at the starting signal is to sail directly to mark 1.

It was only when you posted your image that it occurred to me to go back and see if Japan established their overlap from astern.

Japan established overlap from astern and failed to be sailing PC at the gun.

 

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6 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Japan's proper course at the starting signal is to sail directly to mark 1.

It was only when you posted your image that it occurred to me to go back and see if Japan established their overlap from astern.

Japan established overlap from astern and failed to be sailing PC at the gun.

 

Rule 17 doesn't apply before the start. At the moment of the gun, when 17 comes into effect, Japan is to leeward and overlapped and can do whatever they want, same way you can get pinched off the line by the guy who stole your spot in our plebian races.

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If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course

A course a boat would choose in order to sail the course and  finish as soon as possible

A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

At her starting signal, a boat has a proper course.  The proper course in this case was directly towards Mark 1. Japan was sailing above her proper course at the starting signal and continued to sail above her proper course for 4 seconds after the starting signal. If Japan sailed her proper course at the starting signal, then I believe that there was room for Spain. Indeed even if Japan has been late and only bore away at the starting signal, there may still have been room for Spain. 

Reaching starts only work if the boats comply with 17.

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1 minute ago, crashtack said:

Rule 17 doesn't apply before the start. At the moment of the gun, when 17 comes into effect, Japan is to leeward and overlapped and can do whatever they want, same way you can get pinched off the line by the guy who stole your spot in our plebian races.

Incorrect .  There is no limitation on Rule 17. The limitation is on "proper course".   There is no proper course prior to the gun. Immediately the gun has gone off, there is a proper course.

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3 minutes ago, crashtack said:

Rule 17 doesn't apply before the start. At the moment of the gun, when 17 comes into effect, Japan is to leeward and overlapped and can do whatever they want, same way you can get pinched off the line by the guy who stole your spot in our plebian races.

If the windward barging boat came in from astern, you can luff them as long and as hard as you like.

If you came from astern, then you must no longer be luffing them when the gun goes off....and certainly need to bear away very quickly to avoid appearance of breaking rule 17.

That applies even in our plebian club races.  It stops the cheap shot of someone coming from astern into the slot beside you and luffing you after gun goes.  Rule 15 and rule 17 are essential rules for starting well.

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Fun enough rules discussion but just to add: On SailorGirl's twitter account (I can't seem to copy a link from this device) there is a clip from the bow onboard AUS looking back where NO yells at PR "Don't do it, Phil!"

 

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

Japan's proper course at the starting signal is to sail directly to mark 1.

It was only when you posted your image that it occurred to me to go back and see if Japan established their overlap from astern.

Japan established overlap from astern and failed to be sailing PC at the gun.

 

You have a point. My memory was that Spain came from behind, but Japan clearly did, didn't break overlap and then appeared to luff after gun rather than bear away to pc. However that may not have been obvious to Phil at the time. With on water judging he probably couldn't have protested later, so explains why he was angry later

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30 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

You have a point. My memory was that Spain came from behind, but Japan clearly did, didn't break overlap and then appeared to luff after gun rather than bear away to pc. However that may not have been obvious to Phil at the time. With on water judging he probably couldn't have protested later, so explains why he was angry later

Correct . Phil had to hope the umpires saw it.  However Jimmy Spithill does a really good job of encouraging their attention and Phil should have been calling “Proper Course at the Gun Nathan “, with his radio conveniently on

Reviewing the incident from all angles including the Instagram shows Japan sailed a course above PC at the gun and after the gun

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Proper course is not a direct line to the next mark, it is the fastest course to the next mark.  In this case it was to luff to build apparent wind and then bear away when a puff hits.  Pretty hard to convince the umps what Nathan did was not a proper course so far away from the mark.

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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Incorrect .  There is no limitation on Rule 17. The limitation is on "proper course".   There is no proper course prior to the gun. Immediately the gun has gone off, there is a proper course.

Fair enough, you're right. I've never seen such a situation enforced but I guess reaching starts make it more important.

I think in this case, Nate could always argue that he was afraid to put the bow down for fear of being OCS, and cats turn slow in displacement mode (he is actually in the process of turning down when Phil has to tack off)

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Folks, just like the AC, SailGP uses its own RRS, which does not include Rule 17 from the regular RRS.

Here are the rules related to changing course in the current version (2.1) of SailGP RRS:

16 CHANGING COURSE


16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.


16.2 When sailing to a mark that is to windward, a starboard-tack boat shall not bear away to a course
that is below her proper course if at that moment the port-tack boat that is keeping clear by sailing
a course to pass astern of her has to immediately change course to continue keeping clear.


16.3 When sailing to a mark that is to leeward, a starboard-tack boat shall not luff to a course that is
above her proper course if at that moment the port-tack boat that is keeping clear by sailing a
course to pass astern of her has to immediately change course to continue keeping clear.

 

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3 minutes ago, accnick said:

Folks, just like the AC, SailGP uses its own RRS, which does not include Rule 17 from the regular RRS.

Here are the rules related to changing course in the current version (2.1) of SailGP RRS:

16 CHANGING COURSE


16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.


16.2 When sailing to a mark that is to windward, a starboard-tack boat shall not bear away to a course
that is below her proper course if at that moment the port-tack boat that is keeping clear by sailing
a course to pass astern of her has to immediately change course to continue keeping clear.


16.3 When sailing to a mark that is to leeward, a starboard-tack boat shall not luff to a course that is
above her proper course if at that moment the port-tack boat that is keeping clear by sailing a
course to pass astern of her has to immediately change course to continue keeping clear.

 

Do you have a link to the entire rrs? couldn't find them online

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4 hours ago, crashtack said:

So I took a screenshot of the first frame of the youtube broadcast that the "P" starts appearing on Team USA (which I would assume still happens with a delay). I couldn't find the SGP rulebook or sailing instructions, so I don't know whether the starting line is defined from the back edge of the marks or from the little masts that stick up from them, but it seems unlikely that the former would be the case as the marks can rotate.

Anyways, at the moment the "P" is shown, USA (red line) is behind the masts (green) but in front of the back plane of the marks (yellow). The only thing I can think of that would explain this is that the broadcast lags behind actual events (obviously), but the broadcast overlay doesn't lag (or lags less) in regards to RC/umpire inputs and decisions - so we find out that JS is over before he actually crosses the line on our screens. That, or there was a mistake made, but I would expect the teams to pick up on that.

image.thumb.png.a448be7b807572fc0971b9c9ae0ed17b.png

Found the SIs, where it states that the line is between the signal masts on the marks, so the broadcast overlay must be ahead of the actual broadcast...

https://puu.sh/HNoBE/8292917516.png

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11 minutes ago, accnick said:

Try this:

SailGP RRS

Thank you for posting that. I have looked everywhere for rules and/or SIs and/or NOR.   Do you know where the NOR is or SIs?

Anyway, mystery solved. Sail GP is not using rule 17.

That creates carnage and fun on a reaching start line, but I guess that is their choice. There must be a reason for it to allow match racing in reaching starts.

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2 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Thank you for posting that. I have looked everywhere for rules and/or SIs and/or NOR.   Do you know where the NOR is or SIs?

Anyway, mystery solved. Sail GP is not using rule 17.

That creates carnage and fun on a reaching start line, but I guess that is their choice. There must be a reason for it to allow match racing in reaching starts.

This appears to be the official sgp noticeboard, not very easy to find:

https://sites.google.com/a/sailgp.com/noticeboard/home?authuser=0

I think there's relatively few situations where match racing a boat would be beneficial (I can't think of any such situations in Italy), so I doubt we'll see much exploiting of this

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4 minutes ago, crashtack said:

This appears to be the official sgp noticeboard, not very easy to find:

https://sites.google.com/a/sailgp.com/noticeboard/home?authuser=0

I think there's relatively few situations where match racing a boat would be beneficial (I can't think of any such situations in Italy), so I doubt we'll see much exploiting of this

It's odd that things which are important to sailors--class rule, NOR, RRS--are so difficult to find by those who are not part of the SailGP event.

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1 hour ago, trt131 said:

Proper course is not a direct line to the next mark, it is the fastest course to the next mark.  In this case it was to luff to build apparent wind and then bear away when a puff hits.  Pretty hard to convince the umps what Nathan did was not a proper course so far away from the mark.

Good effort but Totally unconvincing.

You want the jury to believe that it was a coincidence that Spain was to windward and just got unlucky that Nathan was luffing to build boat speed , and ignore the fact that all the other boats found that reaching was the fastest point of sail > Then there is the clear evidence that Nathan only built speed and got onto his foils once he had borne away.

Rule 17 has been removed for SailGP otherwise Nathan would have got a penalty.

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19 hours ago, shebeen said:

I suppose this direct comparison was obvious, but it's very tacky - there is way more than just the skipper driving. Turling did win the AC in bermuda on a similar boat in 2017, but to fly in and jump on a boat that was still getting pieced together was always going to be tough no matter who you were.

In Taranto the conditions were light, and since Psarofaghis seems to be the best GC32 skipper out there, this was probably a fortuitous time for him to slot in - let's see how NZ goes in plymouth. and post olympics Turling will surely work it out by the end of the series.

One thing is for sure Arnaud definitely put his name out there this weekend, and could well get a ride on bigger boats from this performance. 

 

Just to be clear. None of the 3 guys who were on board when it was 3 up sailing had ever sailed in the class before. I don't think any of them had sailed a boat with a wing sail before, and I know for certain that the wing trimmer had never used a wing sail. Same applies regarding flight control. It might have been light, and it might have been a different story with another 5-8 knots of breeze, but overall, that was a very impressive performance

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Whatever the situations were, my hat is off to the boats and crew of USA, JPN and SPN for in this event. Impressive by all of them, given how damn impressive some of the rest of the teams are too. 

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5 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

A course a boat would choose in order to sail the course and  finish as soon as possible

At her starting signal, a boat has a proper course.  The proper course in this case was directly towards Mark 1.

You are incorrect. proper course would not be sailing directly towards the mark if to do so means taking longer. In this case, at low speed, a sharp change of course to go directly to the mark would almost certainly stall the wing and therefore be slower than maintaining course until speed had built. There can be a number of other factors that would mean that going straight to the mark wasn't fastest, such as sailing towards a gust. 

I believe that Nathan sailed on past the point where he had inflicted all the damage he could on Phil, and that he chose not to pull away towards the mark for boat speed reasons.

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3 hours ago, trt131 said:

Proper course is not a direct line to the next mark, it is the fastest course to the next mark.  In this case it was to luff to build apparent wind and then bear away when a puff hits.  Pretty hard to convince the umps what Nathan did was not a proper course so far away from the mark.

First time I hear that it is faster to go upwind to go on a reach.

And if that was true, all the boats were sailing in the same wind conditions, however no other did the same, so either they are dumb or it it does not work. They are not dumb, so it does not work.

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9 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

In order to come first, you have to be scoring 4ths and 2nds,  not 1sts and 8ths,

Proving how STUPID SailGP scoring is! 

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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Good effort but Totally unconvincing.

You want the jury to believe that it was a coincidence that Spain was to windward and just got unlucky that Nathan was luffing to build boat speed , and ignore the fact that all the other boats found that reaching was the fastest point of sail > Then there is the clear evidence that Nathan only built speed and got onto his foils once he had borne away.

Rule 17 has been removed for SailGP otherwise Nathan would have got a penalty.

i don't want the Jury to believe anything, its up to the umps on the water who make an instant decision no model boats, no long deliberations. Instant justice and they got it right.

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5 hours ago, trt131 said:

i don't want the Jury to believe anything, its up to the umps on the water who make an instant decision no model boats, no long deliberations. Instant justice and they got it right.

Umpires would reach the same conclusion. Japan was sailing above PC.

Since rule 17 does not apply in SailGP it was not a rule breach.     In most sailing events, it would be. 
 

Nathan knew SailGP rules and exploited them successfully 

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15 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

The scoring of the  first 5 races is turning out to be very relevant.

  The final 6th race in each event only determines positions 1 thru 3. Positions 4 thru 8 are determined by the first 5 races.

Thus far in the series. No single boat has made it to all the finals, so every boat is counting scores 4 thru 8 as determined in the first 5 races.

Spain is leading because it finished 4th in the 1st 5 races in Bermuda . Of all the boats that made it to the final, it has the best result when it didnt finish in the final.

There are no discards, so when the series gets to the end, the final 3 for the $1 million shoot out (a lot of money for professional sailors), is going to depend on some scores from 4-8 as well as 1-3. 

 

 

I reckon the simplistic scoring needs a bit of refining. There is a HUGE difference in prestige in coming 1st or 2nd, yet it counts just 1 point. Similar to 3rd/4th. This should be reflected in your scores, so here's an alternative - 4-8th place get 5 down to 1 point as it currently stands. 3rd gets 7 points, 2nd 9 and for winning you get 12. This is how the log would look. It's all rather tight now, but back end of the season it could get spicy

 

image.png.e64b6bbd78586b8da5d1bd3d1dcfcd8a.png

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, shebeen said:

I reckon the simplistic scoring needs a bit of refining. There is a HUGE difference in prestige in coming 1st or 2nd, yet it counts just 1 point. Similar to 3rd/4th. This should be reflected in your scores, so here's an alternative - 4-8th place get 5 down to 1 point as it currently stands. 3rd gets 7 points, 2nd 9 and for winning you get 12. This is how the log would look. It's all rather tight now, but back end of the season it could get spicy

 

image.png.e64b6bbd78586b8da5d1bd3d1dcfcd8a.png

 

 

 

Great idea.  More like Formula One.

It would make qualifying for the final 3 more impactful

it also hurts equipment failure harder. Would you allow a discard?

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24 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Great idea.  More like Formula One.

It would make qualifying for the final 3 more impactful

it also hurts equipment failure harder. Would you allow a discard?

Discards is standard for all sailing, so yes. 

for events, 5 races could have 4 best scores - would really spice up the maths and Freddy's abacus for race 5 permutations too.

For the series i think you could drop 1 of the 8 results too, although by then i think we'll have a very good idea of the final 3 no matter which way you slice it. 

 

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Just now, enigmatically2 said:

They should be able to drop one of the series IMO especially when they aren't really to blame for boat failures. Like slingsby's problems this last one

"No discards" puts a premium on consistency. "No redress" puts a premium on smart sailing and avoiding encounters that can hurt.

This format puts it all on the line, in every race. It's more the way real life works. I like it.

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Here are the boats that have won races thus far. Interestingly, they would be my top 5 picks but the number of bullets doesnt correlate with the standings at the moment

Australia :  4 wins

Japan :3 wins

GBR: 2 wins

USA : 2 wins

New Zealand : 1 win.

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11 hours ago, accnick said:

It's odd that things which are important to sailors--class rule, NOR, RRS--are so difficult to find by those who are not part of the SailGP event.

Not a major focus for audience growth. Rumble in the starting box is more drama and fun. Their ad clips show sailors falling down crossing, etc. Yucks and bucks.

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Finally had some time for a viewing of the Italian show.. Some good sailing, good range for the boats..poor NO having to thank wuss fur giving two days of  training..(day 2 @'1:50

 

A good watch. Some problems but good sailing.

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@EditorI completely disagree with the review of SailGP on the front page from anarchist Dave.

SailGP is the best streaming /TV sailing that has been around for a decade an we (anarchists) should be encouraging it not disparaging it.

1. Its Free to watch in the USA on live streaming on You Tube.

2. The helms and crew represent perhaps the best assembly of professional sailing talent that has been put together in one place since possibly the Valencia AC.   To have Jimmy Spitbull, Ben Ainslie, Peter Burling, Nathan Outteridge, Tom Slingsby, Phil Robertson, + numerous other incredible talent on the race course in one design technical boats is incredible.

3. The racing is close with numerous lead changes.  We are 1/4 through the series and nobody has emerged as dominant

4. The boats are fast and technical and stuff is going to break. That is okay. They are getting it right and they are innovating with new rigs etc,

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