Jump to content

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

As Ben said, how much space did they want. GB are actually outside the circle when Japan should be tacking. I can't see any turn that JPN want to do that they either have room for, unless they are going for the other mark in which case port-stbd applies

image.png

The lack of steering input for a mark rounding and the smooth line taken to the other mark indicates a distinct plan to take the other mark. 
 

100% Nathan was right To protest Based on his position within the circle But all that would serve to do was the highlight inadequacy  within the rules

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 4k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I had to stop and take a photo of this today (not like I'm pushed for time during lockdown ). Looks like my youngest likes SailGP. Perhaps the boats are just easier to build with lego than the foiling

i didnt bag the ac dipshit. quite strangely you identify yourself with that event and you feel like if someone bags on you, that means the event. i thought it was good. you on the other hand must be f

I've never been annoyed this much watching otherwise excellent racing or in fact any sailing ever.  The sailors and sailing are awesome, boats are good for trashing around short courses - how can

Posted Images

Looking at helms

Burling 3 medals in toto 1 gold 2 silver 

Slingsby 1 medal in toto 1 gold 

Outteridge 2 in toto 1 gold 1 silver 

Ainslie 5 medals in toto 4 gold 1 silver

Ben's the best.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Ben Ainslie, Jimmy Spithill, Tom Slingsby, Phil Robertson, Billy Besson, Pete Burling, Nathan Outteridge, how many went to Tokyo 2020?

You said the most significant event in Sailing is the Olympics. So where are the Olympians?

One, and he got the same number of gold medals from the Tokyo games  as the others on your list.. fuck all 

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Ben Ainslie, Jimmy Spithill, Tom Slingsby, Phil Robertson, Billy Besson, Pete Burling, Nathan Outteridge, how many went to Tokyo 2020?

You said the most significant event in Sailing is the Olympics. So where are the Olympians?

Only 2021 Olympics count? Burling can't even hold Ainslie's Olympic jockstrap.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Looking at helms

Burling 3 medals in toto 1 gold 2 silver 

Slingsby 1 medal in toto 1 gold 

Outteridge 2 in toto 1 gold 1 silver 

Ainslie 5 medals in toto 4 gold 1 silver

Ben's the best.  

Ben would be the best, if he'd won the Americas Cup. 

But he hasn't.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

Ben would be the best, if he'd won the Americas Cup. 

But he hasn't.

 

 

He won in '13. His input was more crucial to that total destruction of the Kiwi's was probably more important than Jimmie's. If you're going to spout some nonsense that only the driver counts.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Ben would be the best, if he'd won the Americas Cup. 

But he hasn't.

 

 

Your world and it's rules and delusions is definitely interesting from a psychologists point of view.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, pusslicker said:

He won in '13. His input was more crucial to that total destruction of the Kiwi's was probably more important than Jimmie's. If you're going to spout some nonsense that only the driver counts.

1 Americas Cup for the USA.

Burling is still better.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Your world and it's rules and delusions is definitely interesting from a psychologists point of view.

Hahaha you wanna talk psychology...one minute we're not living in the past, then we are, make up your mind!

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

1 Americas Cup for the USA.

Burling is still better.

On your basis of ben hasn’t won the cup.

neither has 

Blair Tuke,  Glenn Ashby, Ray Davies, Simon van Velthooven, Josh Junior, Joe Sullivan, Andy Maloney, Carlo Huisman, Guy Endean, Louis Sinclair, Steven Ferguson, Marcus Hansen and Marius van der Pol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, crashtack said:

I know I'm late, but I think day 2 exemplified the things that still need (desperate) fixing with SGP. First of all, they shouldn't have sailed at all today. Total crapshoot, foiling boats in a foiling series should not be drifting around at 4knots with both hulls planted. It didn't make for good viewing.

Second, the opaque and confusing rules. In what fucking world does a boat have room to tack on the inside of another one at a top mark? Two boats came out of a crossing situation perfectly clear with neither changing course, one came out with a series-ending penalty. WTF? I was confused as a sailor, I can only imagine what "non-sailor" viewers were thinking.

Third, and I guess this is tied in with the first point - taking positions as they are according to the computer "standings" when the time limit runs out, completely, utterly ridiculous. I DARE anyone to make sense of the standings in the screenshot below and argue for their logic. Having this decide who went through to the final race was nothing but farcical. If you're going to have a time limit, TLE everyone who didn't make it! They didn't finish the race! Don't just make up random numbers.

https://puu.sh/I5A3a/c1c9936f02.jpg

Oh, and of course the relative penalties which are completely insane when you have one boat foiling and another in displacement in marginal conditions. On a downwind leg, Ben would have had to sail halfway back up the beat to clear himself because Nathan came off the foils purely on his own.

I'm all for using technology and more quantified metrics in sailing, but when shit like the gbr-jpn call (which I assume was just an automated thing) and the computer standings decide entire regattas, it makes SGP look like a clown show.

Ultimately, I think none of these things would have happened if they had just raced another day (thursday seemed fun), or at the very least didn't set a course directly under a ton of skyscrapers when the average wind speed is 8knots. Day 1 was good though, the first race was possibly the most interesting one in all of SGP so far.

Oh, and I think if those umpires were on the water and not in a box somewhere Ben might have shown off his swimming/diving skills again...

Agree, today sucked wind-wise. Foilers should not be subjected to conditions where a boat foiling does a horizon job on a boat stuck in displacement. In a long series like this it's bad but it was far worse when it happened in so many of the limited-races, higher-stakes AC36.

As to the time limit expiration, they go back to the last mark rounding order for count-back standings.

Were they sporting the new light-air 28m rigs today? They may have only tested them (one or two?) this week but not had them ready yet for the whole fleet. Hopefully that will prevent a 'today' situation ever happening again.

Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Agree, today sucked wind-wise. Foilers should not be subjected to conditions where a boat foiling does a horizon job on a boat stuck in displacement. In a long series like this it's bad but it was far worse when it happened in so many of the limited-races, higher-stakes AC36.

As to the time limit expiration, they go back to the last mark rounding order for count-back standings.

Were they sporting the new light-air 28m rigs today? They may have only tested them (one or two?) this week but not had them ready yet for the whole fleet. Hopefully that will prevent a 'today' situation ever happening again.

They had both the tall wings and a three-man crew. 

I liked the racing . How soon we forget what light-air racing is like in the Archimedean boats most of us race. Some of these guys are among the best at that type of racing, and it showed.

These are events with specific schedules. They would rarely be able to cancel a day of racing or change a schedule.

The crews understand this, and they race in the conditions they have.

That’s sailboat racing. Suck it up, Sunshine.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Spot the irony as Ben keeps his perfect record of making GP finals and your beloved  has yet to reach one

Ainslie is clearly the best One-Design Foiling Sailor. GBR was in dire straights after being held up by the Danish Team in Race 5. They had to turn around and cross the Start Line leaving them in 7th and out of the Podium Race.

But this is Ben Ainslie! He and his 2-Man Crew of Goobs & Parko stuck their Heads down, sailed around the entire Fleet and finished 2nd, therefore making "The Final".

Not a lot of people could have pulled that off.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

As Ben said, how much space did they want. GB are actually outside the circle when Japan should be tacking. I can't see any turn that JPN want to do that they either have room for, unless they are going for the other mark in which case port-stbd applies

image.png

Most ridiculous call EVER in Sailing especially since Japan was going to the other Gate anyways.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Hahaha you wanna talk psychology...one minute we're not living in the past, then we are, make up your mind!

Past or present? Wtf are you even on about? You move the goalposts so frequently it's hard to tell.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Ainslie is clearly the best One-Design Foiling Sailor. GBR was in dire straights after being held up by the Danish Team in Race 5. They had to turn around and cross the Start Line leaving them in 7th and out of the Podium Race.

But this is Ben Ainslie! He and his 2-Man Crew of Goobs & Parko stuck their Heads down, sailed around the entire Fleet and finished 2nd, therefore making "The Final".

Not a lot of people could have pulled that off.

There's an illuminating quote from Dalton when Ben was with them. It got to a point where Dean was worried about proceeding Ben down the stairs. More on point Dalton was asked if he would take Ben or Dean in a race for life. Dalton said "if you ask steer then Dean but for a race for my life, then its Ainslie every day of the week"

Source: Seahorse.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

As Ben said, how much space did they want. GB are actually outside the circle when Japan should be tacking. I can't see any turn that JPN want to do that they either have room for, unless they are going for the other mark in which case port-stbd applies

image.png

Isn't this just a variation of the Team Racing tactic of a mark trap.  I have seen it used a few times in match racing but sometimes the umps are not aware what is happening and green flag it.  Once Japan got inside the zone GB had to keep clear no matter what.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, accnick said:

They had both the tall wings and a three-man crew.

Note that SailGP started with a 4 segment (all-purpose) 24m wing, then removed a segment which became the 3 segment (strong wind) 18m wing.

The 24m wing is now a "moderate wind" wing, as they have been testing a new "light wind" 5 segment wing, but I gather they were not yet production-ready for Aarhus.

IIRC, in a video produced about the design and build of the wings, it was mentioned that it takes as long to build a wing as it does a boat. Perhaps that was a bit of an exaggeration, but they certainly are a complex bit of kit. For this season, rope &/or wire was fully replaced by hydraulics.

These light air assemblies may be completed and available for Saint-Tropez, but I'm hoping for strong winds, and some consistent 50+ knot sustained  bursts by the boats. :rolleyes:

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

IIRC, in a video produced about the design and build of the wings,

In a broadcast video even from today (yesterday?) they did show kit graphics comparing foils, rudders and wings for all they have going on but (inadvertantly/early) a segment yesterday pointed to the 'medium air' wings (but light-air foils) as the ones deployed this weekend? Which wings did they use today - heavy, medium or (28m) light air?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

The 24m wing is now a "moderate wind" wing, as they have been testing a new "light wind" 5 segment wing, but I gather they were not yet production-ready for Aarhus.

Oh, gotya, thanks.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, accnick said:

They had both the tall wings and a three-man crew. 

I liked the racing . How soon we forget what light-air racing is like in the Archimedean boats most of us race. Some of these guys are among the best at that type of racing, and it showed.

These are events with specific schedules. They would rarely be able to cancel a day of racing or change a schedule.

The crews understand this, and they race in the conditions they have.

That’s sailboat racing. Suck it up, Sunshine.

Medium wings were used. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, trt131 said:

 Once Japan got inside the zone GB had to keep clear no matter what.

I just rewatched that rounding. I don't think Japan could have touched them if they'd tried no matter what they did. So GB did keep clear no matter what.

A short time before, even 10s, that didn't look like it was going to be the case but it changed quickly

Link to post
Share on other sites

I usually like Stats BUT what is SAILGP smoking here. These are nowhere near accurate...

vlcsnap-2021-08-22-19h02m26s706.png

They have left out Ben's Race Win in Aarhus (Race 3). They left out Ben's tremendous WIN in Sydney where he won 5 of 6 Races.

C'mon, give me a break!

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, accnick said:

My mistake.

And the announcers who probably don't read anything about the technoilgy and saw something bigger than the small wings so DID say "big wings" on TV.

So were they using the "regular/medium" winds and the light air foils?  Are those matched? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

They "decided" Sydney never happened.  

 

They also left out his Aarhus Race 3 Win. Ainslie competed in 10 Fleet Races if they take only 2021 and not 5.

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

And the announcers who probably don't read anything about the technoilgy and saw something bigger than the small wings so DID say "big wings" on TV.

So were they using the "regular/medium" winds and the light air foils?  Are those matched? 

Everyone uses the same wing as decided by race direction in the morning, yes they are all on the new modular wings 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I usually like Stats BUT what is SAILGP smoking here. These are nowhere near accurate...

vlcsnap-2021-08-22-19h02m26s706.png

They have left out Ben's Race Win in Aarhus (Race 3). They left out Ben's tremendous WIN in Sydney where he won 5 of 6 Races.

C'mon, give me a break!

We at least know it wasn't Clarkey. The AC tally would have been 0/4 and 0 medals at the Tokyo Olympics.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think they had the 2 different foils (and rudders?) from the beginning, no? Or perhaps at least they had them since the current generation of foils, which may have not been from the beginning.

And they only started with the one 24 meter non-modular wing. Then I think they added the smaller wing by making it modular. Seems to me like until they actually have the new light air wing, the medium air wing is the big one. The official names are 24 meter and 18 meter, so of the two that are in use, the 24 meter one is the big/tall one. I think it was/is accurate for Aarhus to say big/tall for the 24 meter wing. Those are unofficial, though.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Everyone uses the same wing as decided by race direction in the morning, yes they are all on the new modular wings 

Right I know everyone uses what is decided my question was do the "medium" size modular wings  they used match dynamically with the larger light air foils someone said they all used? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Driver, kmph, dumbed down commentary… they lost me. I loved to follow but they have alienated the core fans. So long, SailGP! 
 

(53 knots is kick ass, 98kmph mehhh )

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think cheating. 

But it reminds me of the classic "hold your proper course" bellowing by Paul Cayard. Kept rattling them till they did draw a penalty. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Right I know everyone uses what is decided my question was do the "medium" size modular wings  they used match dynamically with the larger light air foils someone said they all used? 

Since they modularized the wings, they have had the 24 sized one and that was the bigger one, and so, originally designed to go with the light air foils. Though I am not sure it really matters if those are always matched. I think the rudder and the daggerboard would always be matched, but perhaps there is some difference in crossover wind speed between the wings and the foils. I think they had 2 sets of foils before they had more than one wing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Right I know everyone uses what is decided my question was do the "medium" size modular wings  they used match dynamically with the larger light air foils someone said they all used? 

No there are differences in handling and trimming, certainly the small wings have so much area In front of the rotation point there are some very different techniques needed. 
 

sorry i re read what you said and please ignore what I was on about 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

And the announcers who probably don't read anything about the technoilgy and saw something bigger than the small wings so DID say "big wings" on TV.

So were they using the "regular/medium" winds and the light air foils?  Are those matched? 

I am no longer part of the tech loop for the class. You would probably never match the light-air foils with the smallest wings (and vice versa) but there are probably crossovers for the wing/foil matches that are driven by both wind and sea state.

Remember they also have multiple jib sizes to fit into the equation.

All boats race with the same equipment on a day, so no boat can “get lucky” with component selection on a given day.

It’s about as pure a one design, one performance class as you can find.

Even the permitted grit of sandpaper the teams can use for wet-sanding the appendages is specified, and the paper is supplied.

Apart from breakdowns, it is a contest of pure sailing skill.

I like that.

Of course , I also like the development classes of the AC. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I just wondered because they seemed to have trouble with puffs(?) and in general not be as smoothly foiling as I recall. But that's bases on a quick look at TV. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

I just wondered because they seemed to have trouble with puffs(?) and in general not be as smoothly foiling as I recall. But that's bases on a quick look at TV. 

Those were difficult sailing conditions, particularly sailing below the taller buildings of the city. The transition from displacement mode to foiling isn’t always smooth, plus they were sailing two crew down, which they have all had little experience with.

Under the circumstances, they did pretty well.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, accnick said:

Those were difficult sailing conditions, particularly sailing below the taller buildings of the city. The transition from displacement mode to foiling isn’t always smooth, plus they were sailing two crew down, which they have all had little experience with.

Under the circumstances, they did pretty well.

Commentary Team said Boats need 45 kph to get up onto the Foils!

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Commentary Team said Boats need 45 kph to get up onto the Foils!

I thought they said 30.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@NeedAClew

The way Nathan is trying to convince the Umpires to hold up the Penalty Call in that little clip is CHEATING in my opinion.

Nathan certainly got Ben fired up. Wow you get a call like that in your favor and then go on to rub it in. No wonder Ben was pissed. Some creative expletives Ben had happening. I agree the weather did not support real racing it becomes a lottery and we all know that. Slinger did well in the end. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, terrafirma said:

Nathan certainly got Ben fired up. Wow you get a call like that in your favor and then go on to rub it in. No wonder Ben was pissed.

A sign of how competitive these guys are!

Huge credit IMO to Nathan for his Day 2, that race when he went 'south' off the start line after getting locked out, to hunt the wind, was quite brilliant.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I think Ben was getting very close to a black flag for not taking the penalty sooner.  Nathan was not cheating when asking the ump if GB were going to take the penalty.  It does not matter if you agree with the call or not.  If the ump says penalty, you take the penalty.  It sounded like Craig was intimidated by Ben into not giving a black flag.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, trt131 said:

Actually I think Ben was getting very close to a black flag for not taking the penalty sooner.  Nathan was not cheating when asking the ump if GB were going to take the penalty.  It does not matter if you agree with the call or not.  If the ump says penalty, you take the penalty.  It sounded like Craig was intimidated by Ben into not giving a black flag.

Did you see where Ben was in relation to Nathan? Nathan was half a leg behind him and that makes it pretty hard to execute the penalty. The situation was also made worse because Ben sincerely didn't think there was a penalty there? So yes Ben sailed on a bit waiting for Nathan and perhaps could have been black flagged but let common sense prevail please. I personally think Nathan had heaps of room at the mark and had no decision been called nobody would have complained IMO.

Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Did you see where Ben was in relation to Nathan? Nathan was half a leg behind him and that makes it pretty hard to execute the penalty. The situation was also made worse because Ben sincerely didn't think there was a penalty there? So yes Ben sailed on a bit waiting for Nathan and perhaps could have been black flagged but let common sense prevail please. I personally think Nathan had heaps of room at the mark and had no decision been called nobody would have complained IMO.

Thats not the point.  Ben was outside the zone and Nathan was inside the zone.  Ben is always the give way boat and he had to stay well away no matter where Nathan steered.  The rule at the mark are different in SailGP.  Ben got pinged which was the correct decision because the zone was Nathans.  You cant second guess after the decision what might have happened.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

At the risk of playing devils advocate…

the yellow circles are an approximation for us TV oiks.. the actual zone is very precisely marked for the umpires so there MAYbe a difference between what we see and what the Umpires see. 
 

I do wonder what the onboard coms were calling on the approach to the mark And what rounding they were intending to take on team Japan, that could be rather revealing.

there have been closer crossed and calls resulting in play on and all anyone wants is consistency, that I would assume is part of the frustration. 
 

still it’s getting the clicks and Sail GP are milking it on instagram, no such thing as bad news eh? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always been wary of gates and overlapping zones and such. Even reading their rules I'm not sure how it was a penalty... Unless there are sailing instructions somewhere that say something different.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

the yellow circles are an approximation for us TV oiks.. the actual zone is very precisely marked for the umpires so there MAYbe a difference between what we see and what the Umpires see. 

I wondered this. But, even if the zones been overlapping, then wouldn't have GBR got to the right hand mark zone inside and before JPN, so would have had full rights to room, plus the right as starboard boat to go to the mark of their choosing. 

JPN were clearly at the left mark zone first and inside, so undeniably entitled to room. But to my eye, it looks like GBR left the door open for JPN to go inside up to the point where JPN chose to duck GBR and head to the other mark.  
The only way I can see a foul being called is if the software includes some pre-set turn radius for room required to tack, which when applied to JPNs position as they got to the mark GBR were infringing. 

It's a shame the analytics page which shows the umpire screen is live only, and you can't rewind and it isn't up after the racing.

The app doesn't seem to have day 2 up yet, but on days one the zones for the marks didn't overlap. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/21/2021 at 9:39 PM, crashtack said:

I know I'm late, but I think day 2 exemplified the things that still need (desperate) fixing with SGP. First of all, they shouldn't have sailed at all today. Total crapshoot, foiling boats in a foiling series should not be drifting around at 4knots with both hulls planted. It didn't make for good viewing.

Second, the opaque and confusing rules. In what fucking world does a boat have room to tack on the inside of another one at a top mark? Two boats came out of a crossing situation perfectly clear with neither changing course, one came out with a series-ending penalty. WTF? I was confused as a sailor, I can only imagine what "non-sailor" viewers were thinking.

Third, and I guess this is tied in with the first point - taking positions as they are according to the computer "standings" when the time limit runs out, completely, utterly ridiculous. I DARE anyone to make sense of the standings in the screenshot below and argue for their logic. Having this decide who went through to the final race was nothing but farcical. If you're going to have a time limit, TLE everyone who didn't make it! They didn't finish the race! Don't just make up random numbers.

https://puu.sh/I5A3a/c1c9936f02.jpg

Oh, and of course the relative penalties which are completely insane when you have one boat foiling and another in displacement in marginal conditions. On a downwind leg, Ben would have had to sail halfway back up the beat to clear himself because Nathan came off the foils purely on his own.

I'm all for using technology and more quantified metrics in sailing, but when shit like the gbr-jpn call (which I assume was just an automated thing) and the computer standings decide entire regattas, it makes SGP look like a clown show.

Ultimately, I think none of these things would have happened if they had just raced another day (thursday seemed fun), or at the very least didn't set a course directly under a ton of skyscrapers when the average wind speed is 8knots. Day 1 was good though, the first race was possibly the most interesting one in all of SGP so far.

Oh, and I think if those umpires were on the water and not in a box somewhere Ben might have shown off his swimming/diving skills again...

@Mozzy Sailsidea from AC36 was a clearing a penalty is doing ZERO vmg. obviously a 360 is too much, and a lot of the time the penalty is either cleared by default or impossible to clear due to someone else's situation.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, shebeen said:

@Mozzy Sailsidea from AC36 was a clearing a penalty is doing ZERO vmg. obviously a 360 is too much, and a lot of the time the penalty is either cleared by default or impossible to clear due to someone else's situation.

 

In this case a 360 would have been a fraction of the penalty of dropping behind JPN.

And as you say on other occasions the penalty is cleared immediately. So it's a very inconsistent degree of penalty

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

The only way I can see a foul being called is if the software includes some pre-set turn radius for room required to tack, which when applied to JPNs position as they got to the mark GBR were infringing. 

My guess too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

HS rules definition is: "Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark on the required side." So quite a different definition to our RRS where mark room only entitles you room to sail to the mark, but not always your proper course. 

What do people think about Rule 18.3? I find the way it's written quite hard to understand. 

A tack may be done no faster than required to sail their proper course?? Surely it means to say a tack may be done no later or the boat may sail no further than required? 

I just can't think of any situation where a boat who has mark room, who then tack faster (sooner?) than their proper course causing any issues for any other boats, so why is there a rule against it?

18.3b is more familiar wording similar to the stander rules and room to gybe. But isn't relevant for gates. 

 

Rule 18.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/22/2021 at 12:58 AM, Stingray~ said:

As to the time limit expiration, they go back to the last mark rounding order for count-back standings.

... so what if you're in a good position around the last mark but lose places on the final leg? You can just slow down, not make the time limit, and gain positions? Or do they not displace boats that have finished? In either case, the countback on a gate rounding is still 'eh' in terms of fairness

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, crashtack said:

... so what if you're in a good position around the last mark but lose places on the final leg? You can just slow down, not make the time limit, and gain positions? Or do they not displace boats that have finished? In either case, the countback on a gate rounding is still 'eh' in terms of fairness

Yes the count-back applies to only boats that didn't finish in time.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Was wondering if GBR had gone for a tack inside of JPN, after seeing that JPN was first to the zone, would JPN then need to give room?

It didn't look like JPN had enough room to tack around the mark with GBR there, and that is why they went to the unfavored side of the course.( the other mark)

Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, david r said:

It didn't look like JPN had enough room to tack around the mark with GBR there, and that is why they went to the unfavored side of the course.( the other mark)

IIRC having "enough room" doesn't imply that it needs to be enough space to make an optimal racing rounding ("wide-then-tight" or whatever equivalent is fastest for these boats).

I'm not familiar with the adjustments in sailGP rules, but assuming it's just like a normal leeward gate situation, JPN can't push GBR out to make a super wide rounding. They have to make as tight of a rounding as technically possible, which they do have room to do there. 

 

The interesting bit for me is that JPN sails right up to the mark, so that their "technically tightest rounding" could be argued as needing to be quite wide. So if that's the argument and this call is considered correct (I don't personally agree with it at all), then it's at the very least quite a clever abuse of that rule by Nathan.. and it should be modified for this situation to not allow it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@NeedAClew

The way Nathan is trying to convince the Umpires to hold up the Penalty Call in that little clip is CHEATING in my opinion.

Nathan was just trying to help the umpires keep their spine in the face of Mr. Temper Tantrum.  Given Ben's history of road rage on the water - a little back-up was in order.  IMHO - Ben's ego/temper was an asset when he was sailing single handed pain machines, but it will continue to be his Achilles heel in the AC - its a fatal leadership flaw.  However, crude poor-sports do make for good TV for the masses.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, cbulger said:

Nathan was just trying to help the umpires keep their spine in the face of Mr. Temper Tantrum.  Given Ben's history of road rage on the water - a little back-up was in order.  IMHO - Ben's ego/temper was an asset when he was sailing single handed pain machines, but it will continue to be his Achilles heel in the AC - its a fatal leadership flaw.  However, crude poor-sports do make for good TV for the masses.

To be fair his rage was useful in '13. Only during that one 2 week period though. The one I am thinking of is when they collided and he verbally abused the Kiwis and they just sat there like the dead dicks they were. That was the end of them and I think Ainslie had a lot to do with it. Otherwise he fucking sucks as a team leader.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is unbelievable how all the GB posters don't accept a penalty on Ben.  Mozzy admits he doesn't know the SailGP rule but then makes a whole video on how he thinks the rule is interpreted.  In some of his AC vids his lack of rules knowledge was very evident.  Nathan was in the zone and therefore owned that mark.  The instant Ben turned toward the mark however slightly, it was a penalty.  Was Nathan intending to go to the other mark? we don't know but it was nearly impossible for him to round the left hand mark with Ben in the way.  I do think there needs to be another mechanism to scrub off the penalty than get behind the right of way boat.  Certainly not turns, maybe sail outside the boundary for a set time period and then come back in at the same place.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I find the wording of 18.3a weird, specifically the word 'faster'. I think questioning that is different from not knowing the rule. Its not language we see elsewhere in the RRS so is worth a comment in this thread. 

Regardless, the rule gives Nathan room to sail his proper course, that doesn't mean 'he owns the mark', and certainly he is still limited to where he can sail within the zone. If you don't understand that then I suggest you don't know the rule. 

GBR had given JPN the whole zone as room to tack in and round. I can't see one example where a boat has needed more than that (check out Denmark and GBR at the last mark in race one for analogous situation).

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, trt131 said:

It is unbelievable how all the GB posters don't accept a penalty on Ben.  Mozzy admits he doesn't know the SailGP rule but then makes a whole video on how he thinks the rule is interpreted.  In some of his AC vids his lack of rules knowledge was very evident.  Nathan was in the zone and therefore owned that mark.  The instant Ben turned toward the mark however slightly, it was a penalty.  Was Nathan intending to go to the other mark? we don't know but it was nearly impossible for him to round the left hand mark with Ben in the way.  I do think there needs to be another mechanism to scrub off the penalty than get behind the right of way boat.  Certainly not turns, maybe sail outside the boundary for a set time period and then come back in at the same place.

The bigger picture here is that the rules are flawed and make sgp into a silly, confusing mess, the outcome of which is being decided by some lines drawn on a computer screen somewhere and not by the sailors on the water.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, trt131 said:

It is unbelievable how all the GB posters don't accept a penalty on Ben.  Mozzy admits he doesn't know the SailGP rule but then makes a whole video on how he thinks the rule is interpreted.  In some of his AC vids his lack of rules knowledge was very evident.  Nathan was in the zone and therefore owned that mark.  The instant Ben turned toward the mark however slightly, it was a penalty.  Was Nathan intending to go to the other mark? we don't know but it was nearly impossible for him to round the left hand mark with Ben in the way.  I do think there needs to be another mechanism to scrub off the penalty than get behind the right of way boat.  Certainly not turns, maybe sail outside the boundary for a set time period and then come back in at the same place.

ha ha, i wouldn't go that far! I think it's either - the rule was applied fairly but is bollocks/the rule was interpreted wrong (I'm going on JPN being in the zone for a mark they weren't rounding).

I do however have three queries that i guess you're not going to solve as a spectator on youtube.

a)did Nathan actually press protest button, or is automatically from the judges?

b)assuming no penalty was coming, the RH mark seemed the better option for JPN, because it saved having to pull off a tight tack and bearaway for totally different reasons. BUT the final is essentially a matchrace with 3 boats. At some stage do the 2nd/3rd boats give up the win and defend/fight for the second place. These guys have a team with coaches and meetings and strategies, so they obviously have plans on how to asses mark roundings according to the rules. If this really was the case here, and NOuterridge was trying to take BAinslie out, then he would have tacked to force the penalty instead of going for the other gate..

c)how do the comms work? "shut up nathan!" implies they are on the same channel, but surely that is not the same case during the racing (ie. having another boat hearing your tactics discussion)? there's obviously boat comms between the crew, and then a skipper/jury channel. Is this jury/race management channel just a standard half duplex VHF with the jury on it (from their hidey hole england!) But obviously it wouldn't be that simple, otherwise Joe Bloggs could sit there with his handheld VHF and find their channel and talk away.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, trt131 said:

It is unbelievable how all the GB posters don't accept a penalty on Ben.  Mozzy admits he doesn't know the SailGP rule but then makes a whole video on how he thinks the rule is interpreted.  In some of his AC vids his lack of rules knowledge was very evident.  Nathan was in the zone and therefore owned that mark.  The instant Ben turned toward the mark however slightly, it was a penalty.  Was Nathan intending to go to the other mark? we don't know but it was nearly impossible for him to round the left hand mark with Ben in the way.  I do think there needs to be another mechanism to scrub off the penalty than get behind the right of way boat.  Certainly not turns, maybe sail outside the boundary for a set time period and then come back in at the same place.

I don’t think we are being partisan about this. I know this sort of thing gets said a lot but if it had been the other way round I would still question this penalty.

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

HS rules definition is: "Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark on the required side." So quite a different definition to our RRS where mark room only entitles you room to sail to the mark, but not always your proper course. 

What do people think about Rule 18.3? I find the way it's written quite hard to understand. 

A tack may be done no faster than required to sail their proper course?? Surely it means to say a tack may be done no later or the boat may sail no further than required? 

I just can't think of any situation where a boat who has mark room, who then tack faster (sooner?) than their proper course causing any issues for any other boats, so why is there a rule against it?

18.3b is more familiar wording similar to the stander rules and room to gybe. But isn't relevant for gates. 

 

Rule 18.png

This was a gate mark so 18.3 b does not apply. But when Japan does not tack, she is no longer taking room.

To me the simple facts are that there was room at the mark for Japan to tack. Ben had sailed high leaving 3 boat lengths for Japan to tack. Japan made no effort to tack, so when it was clear that Japan was not going to tack,  Ben crossed Japan and headed up and rounded the mark. Ben did not start to head up unril it was clear that Japan was not attempting to tack.

Be had won the mark, if Japan had tacked there, Ben would have sailed round them with speed, so Nathan decided to sail on for the unfavored mark to split.

Bad call by umpires.

Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, shebeen said:

a)did Nathan actually press protest button, or is automatically from the judges?

c)how do the comms work? "shut up nathan!" implies they are on the same channel, but surely that is not the same case during the racing (ie. having another boat hearing your tactics discussion)? there's obviously boat comms between the crew, and then a skipper/jury channel. Is this jury/race management channel just a standard half duplex VHF with the jury on it (from their hidey hole england!) But obviously it wouldn't be that simple, otherwise Joe Bloggs could sit there with his handheld VHF and find their channel and talk away.

a) I am told that Nathan pressed the button for a protest

b) maybe, although he would say he didn't execute the tack because it would have risked a collision and losing a point even though he had mark room (strict rules about avoiding a collision like NZL). So instead he ducked and sailed to RH mark and protested. I think many of the skippers just hit the protest at every cross when they have some sort of rule advantage. There is nothing to lose, but the umpires are human and it can only go your way. 

c) There is a race management channel which the skippers can press a button on the side of the helmet to talk on. The umpires can hear the broadcast audio, so all the teams all the time, but skippers can only hear the race management. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

As they both approach the mark, you can clearly see GBR head up significantly (you can see the track in the water) to give Japan room.    Ben is clearly crossing Japan. Ben does not bear away until he has crossed Japan. I do not see what else Ben could do,

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

I do not see what else Ben could do,

Not a lot except go behind.  Mozzy, in the SailGP rules the right of way boat doesn't have to sail her proper course around the mark, the boat can take what ever course it chooses.

Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Not a lot except go behind.  Mozzy, in the SailGP rules the right of way boat doesn't have to sail her proper course around the mark, the boat can take what ever course it chooses.

Japan was not ROW boat , she was merely a boat entitled to mark room.   All the umpires had to decide is if Japan had room to round the mark.   Did she?

Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Nathan Outteridge is a disgrace to Sailing and needs to be attacked Non-Stop 24/7 until France for his stunt!

Cunt. You not him. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Putting the Judges call aside.....

At this level of "win at all costs - do whatever it takes" pro sailing does anyone doubt that Ben would have done the same as Nathan if the positions were reversed?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, trt131 said:

Mozzy, in the SailGP rules the right of way boat doesn't have to sail her proper course around the mark, the boat can take what ever course it chooses.

Look at the definition for mark room. I posted it above. Mark room is limited to proper course.

1260019704_markroom.png.fca66a1f17c487a35a43633620ac294a.png

And proper course, note it's the course one would sail in absence of other boats, nothing about match racing tactics or getting a penalty plays in to that.

1861176678_propercourse.png.0fd0cf6f33ffdc2331f463005468dcf8.png

Here is a link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F-dHKbK0i-N7kgvmXuBaUWgosNdgAOsT/view

JPN were on port so they had no rights beyond mark room and therefore could sail no further than her proper course. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some things that occur to me. 

1) The decision point, tack or duck, must be some way from the mark.

2) JPN was tight to the mark, so could not start a tack until alongside the mark

3) Case 50 talks about "genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision" albeit in different circumstances, and in any case the casebook doesn't apply.  Nevertheless at wherever the decision point was, could there have been a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision if JPN had attempted the tack?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Look again at the video. At the point in the photo below, GB are going faster. They crossed with a few metres to spare later in vid. If JPN had tacked as these boats normally do, there was clear space inside. If they had luffed or tacked slowly they would have missed. So I really don't see how JPN could have had contact no matter what they did

image.png.e023950702c13fcdd364f2365e588f2c.png

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites