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Another Pipedream to take on Buckos Foiler


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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/29/2021 at 3:44 PM, Floating Duck said:

Man I wish I was rich enough to buy a 1m toy.

I wouldn’t get involved in a project like that unless you had $2m to spend on it.... you’ll have gone through the first million long before you get it foiling.

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Yep, build costs for the IMOCA60’s were reported to be well north of 6million euros...a set of foils is $500k...my take is this is 2/3rds the boat, 2/3rds the cost, not 1/6th!

Whats a new Class 40 go for these days?

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I just can't understand how a set of foils goes for half a mil. 

Someone is making a KILLING. 

I know the engineering aint easy. And loads of carbon involved. But man... 500k. That's nuts. I built an entire carbon motorcycle frame for all of 12k (including my time as cost). I just don't see it.

Although, I am one to complain about my dock fees being $50 too much. Clearly I'm not the target audience. 

One vote though that this will never be past the rendering stage.

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If you have 200 layers of carbon and you can do three layers at a time. ..then bag,  vacuum in autoclave.......only indicitive. ... oh and got to include glue up blocks , machine molds in 3D  , oh and stress test and give a guarantee...  dont get persico to do, just do at home

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3 hours ago, DtM said:

Isn't Bucko's foiler just a pipedream ?

I may have heard just before Christmas that Puger were now involved with the Bucko project. Although memory is hazy, the Bucko Foiler may have been mentioned in following or proceeding conversations.

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On 2/11/2021 at 6:00 AM, SSolo said:

there is not only cost of the foil, but also there is a control system to be installed (and maintained)

Add in all the shit you are going to break during testing before you are happy with the results. No thanks.

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11 minutes ago, Irrational 14 said:

Add in all the shit you are going to break during testing before you are happy with the results. No thanks.

Some of which may be bones when dropping off foils and rapid deceleration. 

I am amazed we didn't hear about injuries from the foilers during the Vendee.  Sounds like they wisely throttled back to preserve themselves and the boat.  Makes you wonder how much the crewed entries in the ocean race will be willing to throttle back in their push to win.  They sure kept the hammer down hard in the VO65's.

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On 2/13/2021 at 4:54 AM, yoyo said:

Some of which may be bones when dropping off foils and rapid deceleration. 

I am amazed we didn't hear about injuries from the foilers during the Vendee.  Sounds like they wisely throttled back to preserve themselves and the boat.  Makes you wonder how much the crewed entries in the ocean race will be willing to throttle back in their push to win.  They sure kept the hammer down hard in the VO65's.

load sensors now tell them when to throttle back..... 

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4 minutes ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

load sensors now tell them when to throttle back..... 

Exactly, and that data is fed into the autopilots. I’m skeptical The Ocean Race guys can push the boats harder; what they can do is trim constantly (exhausting!) and keep the average speeds up.

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On 2/11/2021 at 12:50 AM, huey 2 said:

If you have 200 layers of carbon and you can do three layers at a time. ..then bag,  vacuum in autoclave.......only indicitive. ... oh and got to include glue up blocks , machine molds in 3D  , oh and stress test and give a guarantee...  dont get persico to do, just do at home

From what I’ve seen, these are produced in aluminum tooling. It wouldn’t surprise me if the tooling has water channels to allow for precise control of the mold surface temperature during layup, cure and post cure. My estimate is the tooling is half the cost of the project, between design and machining. Sourcing high modulus carbon is probably 10-15% of the cost, maybe more during COVID. The rest is layup labor. The end result is NOT warrantied, more than likely...

Other people outside Presico can and have done this (several shops in the Anacortes, WA, USA come to mind), but Presico is certainly the most experienced for the IMOCA style foils.

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On 2/11/2021 at 12:18 AM, Floating Duck said:

I just can't understand how a set of foils goes for half a mil. 

Someone is making a KILLING. 

I know the engineering aint easy. And loads of carbon involved. But man... 500k. That's nuts. I built an entire carbon motorcycle frame for all of 12k (including my time as cost). I just don't see it.

Although, I am one to complain about my dock fees being $50 too much. Clearly I'm not the target audience. 

One vote though that this will never be past the rendering stage.

You can read the Alex Thompson foils lawsuit decision if you really care to understand why they cost that much.

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15 hours ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

load sensors now tell them when to throttle back..... 

Agreed.  My comment was directed more at the human factor.  I don't think the load sensors, autopilot or AI are yet capable of preventing mid flight crash down and rapid deceleration.  The solo sailor or crew will make decisions to throttle back not just for the gear but mental stress, safety and proper seamanship for the existing conditions.

Since its not one design I am hoping the crewed IMOCA racing will be close.  If the racing is close, the crews will push hard at the limits 24/7 knowing points per leg are critical and the legs are short compared to the vendee.  No matter what it should be exciting.    

  

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None of us just finished the Vendee Globe.

Jean le Cam did. In Feb 2021 Seahorse, page 11, Jean is quoted: "For me, they're not adapted to what we're doing here. There is a casting mistake. This 'Flying around the world' thing, only guys on land can talk about it."

Jean's wife Anne is a lot less diplomatic: "Jean was the first to sail on the Hydroptére, he knows foilers by heart. ... He was a multihull sailor, he knows what it's about, be he also knows what the Indian Ocean is like, 4-5m waves, nasty broken seas, he knows it all."

Note that the US Navy has been funding hydrofoil development for over a century. There are zero operational US Navy hydrofoils. The problem: there is a definite limit of sea state, beyond which the boats crash and people are injured. And this includes using fully computer controlled foils, not these silly uncontrolled things.

But the real problem with hydrofoils: They ONLY work at intermediate speeds, up to 50 knots. Beyond that, planing (super critical foils) such as on SailRocket or powerboats are the way to go. So why go to all sorts of hassle to end up with a slower boat than just a planing boat?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47509017

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I mean: The AC75s are already at the absolute limit of speed. There is no opportunity to increase speed. Kinda weird domain for competition. Imagine a car race with a 55mph speed limit. Interesting? Not to me.

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On 2/22/2021 at 6:28 PM, carcrash said:

I mean: The AC75s are already at the absolute limit of speed. There is no opportunity to increase speed. Kinda weird domain for competition. Imagine a car race with a 55mph speed limit. Interesting? Not to me.

Sailrocket would suggest otherwise, and 50kts on water in an open frame is a lot different than in the comfort of your 4-wheeled air-bag equipped vehicle.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Carbon-neutral kelp harvester? Belowdecks doesn't look like there's much room for anything else.

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35 minutes ago, resist said:

Bold decision to ditch the traditional third keel

How do they balance without it?  They do have three rudders.  Is it like those Swiss cows that have two legs shorter than the others so they can stand straight on the mountainsides? They harvest kelp in the trades, so are on starboard tack all the time? 

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