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9 hours ago, SeaGul said:

OK i get it now! I can se the genius in the Pacific proa; less stability but light and cheap - and also in the Atlantic ; more stability than tri/cats.  And Im not trolling.

I can se that if low cost was the target a Pacific pro would make sense.

And the proa document linked over it is very interesting tiosee the different boats. But I dont se Sidecar there?  I can se a smill pic in his logo - and there some new thinking going on there with sails - more pics?

Russel usually mentions how well his proas go to weather. Does a 30-35 foot proa solve the problem of sailing against the trade winds and swell along the thorny path from Florida to Tortola? Or the Baja bash from Cabo to San Diego? I don’t know the answer to the question, but I do recall reading in an old multihull magazine how an almost new Corsair 31 compromised its bulkheads and made it somewhere in the Bahamas before turning back whooped on what was supposed to be a 7 day sail to St Martin. Do smallish trimarans go for 1000 miles into 20 knots and 5’ swells without breaking a bunch of stuff? I’ve been curious about how the small fleet of corsairs got to Tortola as posted by the Triple Jack guys. On a ship or on their own hull? How would your boat do? I’m not disparaging tris, in fact all of my pleasure sailing this year is going to be on a F27 and I’m super stoked, it’s going in the water as soon as we get a warm enough day to bottom paint.

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I wrote this eons ago (2011) and it's all dressed up over at pacificproa.com, but I prefer just the text. It seems like it might be valuable to some of you. I'd love to be involved in a proa forum, bu

When I was 25 I bought a 10k mono overloaded it and shoved off with a few friends with far less sailing experience than me with a plan of going to Bocas Del Torros to start a new life as a surf bum. W

I'm pretty damn sure Jzerro has already proven herself to be extremely capable for many years and many miles.  So have her skippers. 

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Thanks for the supportive thoughts Rob.  This is just part of the process.  You have certainly built and sailed on more proas than anyone here, but I think it's very important to frame that with the fact that you haven't actually spent many consecutive days offshore on one of your own designs.  Considering that I've sailed Jzerro over 13,000 miles in many harder conditions than with what happened during my NY to SF attempt, and finally I discovered a weakness, you can see why it's important to have extended voyage time on a single boat.  I know it's in an email somewhere, but what is the longest single voyage you've made on one of your own designs?  I'm sure some of the other posters here would like to know so they have a context for some of your comments.  

Best of luck with the cargo proa.  It's an exciting and noble cause.

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IDK,  but foreigners trying to show Polynesians how to build a better boat seems  to me to be misguided and Anglo centric. I am not trying to start a shit fight, I am just remembering when Dick Newick tried to do the same thing with the SIB trimaran and was unsuccessful.  

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Damn racists trying to share ideas with other people!  Thanks UnShirley for reminding us that one can always find a divisive angle if you look hard enough.  And here I thought that for the first time ever we were gonna get through a proa discussion in a friendly, happy manner.  Stupid me.

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Btw, Un, next time i see you on your trimaran I'm going to loudly and publicly accuse you of cultural appropriation.  A giant Viking like you should only be allowed on the water in a longboat!

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Not looking for a divisive angle.  Merely trying to avoid repetition of historical mistakes.  If one can find an article about Newick’s SIB experience it might be helpful.  ProaSailor, can you help us out with that? 

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On 1/31/2021 at 8:23 AM, Sidecar said:

Ryan, take the hint, it looks as though Mundt is begging you for a ride.

He already has an open invitation to sail on Sidecar. Getting here is a bit tricky, especially at the moment...

And I would would absolutely go for a spin on sidecar if i was offered the opportunity.   

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Pacific proa's lack of stability is somewhat compared to the stability of a canting keel mono with keel at full= (90deg) cant. I'm too lazy to find the figures, but the proa probably has a higher proportion of overall weight in a better position. As the proa heels righting arm shortens and stability reduces - but at the same time wind spills from the sails, and the lee pod on many sedigns adds extra security. The way I see it is the biggest  difficulty is getting the centre off effort right on a boat that has no permanent stern. Workable solutions have been devised, Newick's steering foils seem the most efficient, but what boat isn't a compromise?

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7 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

I guess you kids just don’t know nuthin’. Kites is old news...

https://www.dcss.org/

I had Dave on my F242 demo'ing an outleader early this century-he lives across the strait from me.  Waay too many tiny diameter lines for pleasure sailing.  Not faster than an asymspin for racing, so I passed.  To be fair, he was searching for a market in long haul cross ocean shipping.  

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On 1/31/2021 at 10:04 AM, mundt said:

Damn racists trying to share ideas with other people!  Thanks UnShirley for reminding us that one can always find a divisive angle if you look hard enough.  And here I thought that for the first time ever we were gonna get through a proa discussion in a friendly, happy manner.  Stupid me.

How'd the noodling on turning the 24 into a power-proa go? 

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15 hours ago, mundt said:

Uhhhh...huh?  

I think it was an idea in another thread after seeing one of Bieker's power proas, that the L24 would be a good platform for one....

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4 hours ago, mundt said:

My boat is an L7, a trimaran, and I’m pretty sure I won’t be turning it into a motorboat any time soon, unless the mast comes down...

Was probably Amati then!

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On 2/1/2021 at 2:18 AM, KONeill said:

Hi Rob

The cargo proa looks good, but why are the rudders on the lee side? Surface piercing rudders pick up weeds and crap all the time, those are going to be a pain in the ass to clear. Why not put them on the windward side where you can clear them without stopping the boat?

A pleasant change to get a boat related question, thanks.  The rudders are flush with the hull side and raked forwards, so should not pick up much and what they do will end up  on or above the surface, so easily cleared.     The same attachments can be used to mount them on the windward side if it is a problem.

On 2/1/2021 at 3:59 AM, unShirley said:

IDK,  but foreigners trying to show Polynesians how to build a better boat seems  to me to be misguided and Anglo centric. I am not trying to start a shit fight, I am just remembering when Dick Newick tried to do the same thing with the SIB trimaran and was unsuccessful.  

I agree.  It was important with the Mini cargo proa that we were replacing the petrol powered fibreglass skiffs, not the traditional canoes, which are culturally critical.  Side note: If you want to contribute to a worthy cause, WAM https://www.canoesmarshallislands.com is an organisation that takes the 25 worst behaving kids in the Marshalls and turns them into responsible citizens, via a 12 month program that includes building a traditional canoe.  It's success rate is remarkable, the boats beautiful, but it operates on the smell of an oily rag.   

I don't know the SIB story, but the Pacific is littered with good intention boats paid for and supplied by well meaning westerners.   As far as I could tell (which was not very), the westerners turn up with new technology (usually ply and epoxy, but also chopper guns and poly), build a sail boat which does not perform a whole lot better than the local canoes and bugger off.  Or, worse, supply fibreglass banana boats with 40 hp outboards, incredibly expensive fuel and no spares, knowledge of maintenance.   What is missing is the locals' involvement in the build and the westerners imparting the knowledge (and materials) to repair and maintain the boats.      

The Mini Cargo Proa is ply and epoxy, despite me preferring infused foam and glass.  Giving the epoxy safety talk to the workers and explaining about dust, allergies, masks, gloves and zoot suits you could almost hear them thinking: "You must be kidding, where's my adze?"  Wearing that gear in a tin shed in the tropics is shitty.  Wearing it on a beach while repairing scratches in the epoxy won't happen.  Nor will weighing materials or keeping pumps clean.   The solution in the MCP case is to involve the end users in the build and teach the WAM people how to build and maintain them, so they can travel to where they are used to look after them.   Apparently there are a number of boats to be built, so we will see how it works out.  

The 80' cargo proa is a bit different.  The Marshallese guys I spoke to are rightfully proud of their sailing heritage, are fully aware that their traditional boats have shortcomings (mostly due to materials availability) and are keen to get into a high performance, modern version.  They are exceptionally good sailors and seamen. They reckon the crew of an efficient, fast sailing proa will be treated as chiefs, whereas the crew of a diesel ship (even, or especially, those with auxillary sails) are at the bottom of the pecking order.       

Therefore, we decided not to dumb down the cargo proa performance, but to enhance it as much as possible, while still keeping it easy to build, sail and maintain.  Low windage, light weight, deep (but liftable and kick up) rudders/dagger boards, high aspect ratio flat, low cost sails on wing masts, minimal deck gear (2 winches and a couple of turning blocks), solid glass to take abuse (no timber, ply, structural foam or metal fastenings to rot, rust or delaminate), semi permanent copper/epoxy antifoul (scrubbing off in knee deep water every couple of weeks is easier and more environmentally sound  than repainting each year), house paint to keep the sun off, no inboard engines and a boat that can be sailed into and out of tight spots rather than using the small electric outboard.  

We have the first pilot route planned, with a local consortium doing all the survey, insurance,  politicking and organising required.  The difference between having a boat to demonstrate compared to trying to convince people with drawings, spreadsheets, talkfests and wishful thinking fully justifies the cost and labour so far.     Start date is as soon as I can get the debugged and sea trialled boat up there.    I have no firm idea if or how it will work out, but I am not going to die wondering.  ;-)

Outleader kites were a bit like electric motors a few years ago.  Almost there,  but not quite.  I sold and flew several of them, including a 400 sqm/4,100 sq' on a 60' ULDB and an 80 sq m on a 50' Harryproa.  Challenging, but of limited use and only if the crew knew what they were doing and/or were prepared to do as they are told.       

Proas make great kite platforms, ideally with the long hull upwind and the short hull only long enough to provide steering balance and flotation.  The video shows it the other way round,  little hull upwind, kite flown from the long hull to lee on my Elementarry.  Great fun and proof that a foil does not have to be perfect to work.  The one in the video is supporting ~150 kgs/330 lbs.  It is a hand shaped ogive (section of a circle) with 40 grit finish that flew at less than 12 knots and kept flying when fully ventilated.  There is no lift from the kite.    This has progressed to a machine controlled 27 sqm kite on a 15m/50' harryproa.  More technology that is 'almost, but not quite', but a lot of fun (and a few scary moments) developing it.  


Ryan, I thought you wanted the shit slinging to stop?   The answer is near zero.  Fortunately Harryproa clients are smart enough to make their choices based on logic, sound engineering and my 50 years sailing, racing, designing, building and breaking boats experience.  

Ryan, I thought you wanted the shit slinging to stop?   The answer is near zero.  Fortunately Harryproa clients are smart enough to make their choices based on logic, sound engineering and my 50 years sailing, racing, designing, building and breaking boats experience.  

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1 hour ago, harryproa said:

A pleasant change to get a boat related question, thanks.  The rudders are flush with the hull side and raked forwards, so should not pick up much and what they do will end up  on or above the surface, so easily cleared.     The same attachments can be used to mount them on the windward side if it is a problem.

I agree.  It was important with the Mini cargo proa that we were replacing the petrol powered fibreglass skiffs, not the traditional canoes, which are culturally critical.  Side note: If you want to contribute to a worthy cause, WAM https://www.canoesmarshallislands.com is an organisation that takes the 25 worst behaving kids in the Marshalls and turns them into responsible citizens, via a 12 month program that includes building a traditional canoe.  It's success rate is remarkable, the boats beautiful, but it operates on the smell of an oily rag.   

I don't know the SIB story, but the Pacific is littered with good intention boats paid for and supplied by well meaning westerners.   As far as I could tell (which was not very), the westerners turn up with new technology (usually ply and epoxy, but also chopper guns and poly), build a sail boat which does not perform a whole lot better than the local canoes and bugger off.  Or, worse, supply fibreglass banana boats with 40 hp outboards, incredibly expensive fuel and no spares, knowledge of maintenance.   What is missing is the locals' involvement in the build and the westerners imparting the knowledge (and materials) to repair and maintain the boats.      

The Mini Cargo Proa is ply and epoxy, despite me preferring infused foam and glass.  Giving the epoxy safety talk to the workers and explaining about dust, allergies, masks, gloves and zoot suits you could almost hear them thinking: "You must be kidding, where's my adze?"  Wearing that gear in a tin shed in the tropics is shitty.  Wearing it on a beach while repairing scratches in the epoxy won't happen.  Nor will weighing materials or keeping pumps clean.   The solution in the MCP case is to involve the end users in the build and teach the WAM people how to build and maintain them, so they can travel to where they are used to look after them.   Apparently there are a number of boats to be built, so we will see how it works out.  

The 80' cargo proa is a bit different.  The Marshallese guys I spoke to are rightfully proud of their sailing heritage, are fully aware that their traditional boats have shortcomings (mostly due to materials availability) and are keen to get into a high performance, modern version.  They are exceptionally good sailors and seamen. They reckon the crew of an efficient, fast sailing proa will be treated as chiefs, whereas the crew of a diesel ship (even, or especially, those with auxillary sails) are at the bottom of the pecking order.       

Therefore, we decided not to dumb down the cargo proa performance, but to enhance it as much as possible, while still keeping it easy to build, sail and maintain.  Low windage, light weight, deep (but liftable and kick up) rudders/dagger boards, high aspect ratio flat, low cost sails on wing masts, minimal deck gear (2 winches and a couple of turning blocks), solid glass to take abuse (no timber, ply, structural foam or metal fastenings to rot, rust or delaminate), semi permanent copper/epoxy antifoul (scrubbing off in knee deep water every couple of weeks is easier and more environmentally sound  than repainting each year), house paint to keep the sun off, no inboard engines and a boat that can be sailed into and out of tight spots rather than using the small electric outboard.  

We have the first pilot route planned, with a local consortium doing all the survey, insurance,  politicking and organising required.  The difference between having a boat to demonstrate compared to trying to convince people with drawings, spreadsheets, talkfests and wishful thinking fully justifies the cost and labour so far.     Start date is as soon as I can get the debugged and sea trialled boat up there.    I have no firm idea if or how it will work out, but I am not going to die wondering.  ;-)

Outleader kites were a bit like electric motors a few years ago.  Almost there,  but not quite.  I sold and flew several of them, including a 400 sqm/4,100 sq' on a 60' ULDB and an 80 sq m on a 50' Harryproa.  Challenging, but of limited use and only if the crew knew what they were doing and/or were prepared to do as they are told.       

Proas make great kite platforms, ideally with the long hull upwind and the short hull only long enough to provide steering balance and flotation.  The video shows it the other way round,  little hull upwind, kite flown from the long hull to lee on my Elementarry.  Great fun and proof that a foil does not have to be perfect to work.  The one in the video is supporting ~150 kgs/330 lbs.  It is a hand shaped ogive (section of a circle) with 40 grit finish that flew at less than 12 knots and kept flying when fully ventilated.  There is no lift from the kite.    This has progressed to a machine controlled 27 sqm kite on a 15m/50' harryproa.  More technology that is 'almost, but not quite', but a lot of fun (and a few scary moments) developing it.  


Ryan, I thought you wanted the shit slinging to stop?   The answer is near zero.  Fortunately Harryproa clients are smart enough to make their choices based on logic, sound engineering and my 50 years sailing, racing, designing, building and breaking boats experience.  

Ryan, I thought you wanted the shit slinging to stop?   The answer is near zero.  Fortunately Harryproa clients are smart enough to make their choices based on logic, sound engineering and my 50 years sailing, racing, designing, building and breaking boats experience.  

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What shit slinging?  Please explain?

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7 hours ago, harryproa said:

Side note: If you want to contribute to a worthy cause, WAM https://www.canoesmarshallislands.com is an organisation that takes the 25 worst behaving kids in the Marshalls and turns them into responsible citizens, via a 12 month program that includes building a traditional canoe.  It's success rate is remarkable, the boats beautiful, but it operates on the smell of an oily rag.

Looks like good work. Their web site needs help: no patreon, no paypal button, $12 t-shirts (!???!), no prices on models or other stuff they're selling. This is not how to raise money.

 

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7 hours ago, harryproa said:

A pleasant change to get a boat related question, thanks.  The rudders are flush with the hull side and raked forwards, so should not pick up much and what they do will end up  on or above the surface, so easily cleared.     The same attachments can be used to mount them on the windward side if it is a problem.

I agree.  It was important with the Mini cargo proa that we were replacing the petrol powered fibreglass skiffs, not the traditional canoes, which are culturally critical.  Side note: If you want to contribute to a worthy cause, WAM https://www.canoesmarshallislands.com is an organisation that takes the 25 worst behaving kids in the Marshalls and turns them into responsible citizens, via a 12 month program that includes building a traditional canoe.  It's success rate is remarkable, the boats beautiful, but it operates on the smell of an oily rag.   

I don't know the SIB story, but the Pacific is littered with good intention boats paid for and supplied by well meaning westerners.   As far as I could tell (which was not very), the westerners turn up with new technology (usually ply and epoxy, but also chopper guns and poly), build a sail boat which does not perform a whole lot better than the local canoes and bugger off.  Or, worse, supply fibreglass banana boats with 40 hp outboards, incredibly expensive fuel and no spares, knowledge of maintenance.   What is missing is the locals' involvement in the build and the westerners imparting the knowledge (and materials) to repair and maintain the boats.      

The Mini Cargo Proa is ply and epoxy, despite me preferring infused foam and glass.  Giving the epoxy safety talk to the workers and explaining about dust, allergies, masks, gloves and zoot suits you could almost hear them thinking: "You must be kidding, where's my adze?"  Wearing that gear in a tin shed in the tropics is shitty.  Wearing it on a beach while repairing scratches in the epoxy won't happen.  Nor will weighing materials or keeping pumps clean.   The solution in the MCP case is to involve the end users in the build and teach the WAM people how to build and maintain them, so they can travel to where they are used to look after them.   Apparently there are a number of boats to be built, so we will see how it works out.  

The 80' cargo proa is a bit different.  The Marshallese guys I spoke to are rightfully proud of their sailing heritage, are fully aware that their traditional boats have shortcomings (mostly due to materials availability) and are keen to get into a high performance, modern version.  They are exceptionally good sailors and seamen. They reckon the crew of an efficient, fast sailing proa will be treated as chiefs, whereas the crew of a diesel ship (even, or especially, those with auxillary sails) are at the bottom of the pecking order.       

Therefore, we decided not to dumb down the cargo proa performance, but to enhance it as much as possible, while still keeping it easy to build, sail and maintain.  Low windage, light weight, deep (but liftable and kick up) rudders/dagger boards, high aspect ratio flat, low cost sails on wing masts, minimal deck gear (2 winches and a couple of turning blocks), solid glass to take abuse (no timber, ply, structural foam or metal fastenings to rot, rust or delaminate), semi permanent copper/epoxy antifoul (scrubbing off in knee deep water every couple of weeks is easier and more environmentally sound  than repainting each year), house paint to keep the sun off, no inboard engines and a boat that can be sailed into and out of tight spots rather than using the small electric outboard.  

We have the first pilot route planned, with a local consortium doing all the survey, insurance,  politicking and organising required.  The difference between having a boat to demonstrate compared to trying to convince people with drawings, spreadsheets, talkfests and wishful thinking fully justifies the cost and labour so far.     Start date is as soon as I can get the debugged and sea trialled boat up there.    I have no firm idea if or how it will work out, but I am not going to die wondering.  ;-)

Outleader kites were a bit like electric motors a few years ago.  Almost there,  but not quite.  I sold and flew several of them, including a 400 sqm/4,100 sq' on a 60' ULDB and an 80 sq m on a 50' Harryproa.  Challenging, but of limited use and only if the crew knew what they were doing and/or were prepared to do as they are told.       

Proas make great kite platforms, ideally with the long hull upwind and the short hull only long enough to provide steering balance and flotation.  The video shows it the other way round,  little hull upwind, kite flown from the long hull to lee on my Elementarry.  Great fun and proof that a foil does not have to be perfect to work.  The one in the video is supporting ~150 kgs/330 lbs.  It is a hand shaped ogive (section of a circle) with 40 grit finish that flew at less than 12 knots and kept flying when fully ventilated.  There is no lift from the kite.    This has progressed to a machine controlled 27 sqm kite on a 15m/50' harryproa.  More technology that is 'almost, but not quite', but a lot of fun (and a few scary moments) developing it.  


Ryan, I thought you wanted the shit slinging to stop?   The answer is near zero.  Fortunately Harryproa clients are smart enough to make their choices based on logic, sound engineering and my 50 years sailing, racing, designing, building and breaking boats experience.  

Ryan, I thought you wanted the shit slinging to stop?   The answer is near zero.  Fortunately Harryproa clients are smart enough to make their choices based on logic, sound engineering and my 50 years sailing, racing, designing, building and breaking boats experience.  

1.JPG

Fuck off HarryProa, you are a goddamned stalker menace. Your are also a parasite for endlessly promoting your "products" here without paying for advertising.

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2 hours ago, Guvacine said:

Fuck off HarryProa, you are a goddamned stalker menace. Your are also a parasite for endlessly promoting your "products" here without paying for advertising.

What an awesome contribution to the thread, Guvacine! Thanks for sharing your brilliance! 
And the same to you, Autonomous... when trying to be clever, putting others down by rewording a quote, it helps to know the difference between prey and prey. 
And while I don’t agree with everything he says, at least Rob attempts to add to the conversation with his experiences, which I can only imagine, is a hell of a lot more extensive then either of you two asshats. 
Why don’t you go beat your chest somewhere else? 
You must gave a proud boy meeting to attend to soon?

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10 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Pray tell, what is the difference between prey and prey?  Your post is no more constructive than theirs.

Ok. You got me. 
I’m just praying that we can talk boats. 

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19 hours ago, Solarbri said:

What an awesome contribution to the thread, Guvacine! Thanks for sharing your brilliance! 
And the same to you, Autonomous... when trying to be clever, putting others down by rewording a quote, it helps to know the difference between prey and prey. 
And while I don’t agree with everything he says, at least Rob attempts to add to the conversation with his experiences, which I can only imagine, is a hell of a lot more extensive then either of you two asshats. 
Why don’t you go beat your chest somewhere else? 
You must gave a proud boy meeting to attend to soon?

you may not like the way they put it, but they're not wrong about HarryTroll

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On 1/27/2021 at 6:48 PM, r.finn said:

It's always been about one thing for me: reduced beam loads.  If someone can't understand that one simple thing, well that's on them.  Onwards and upwards.

You lost me here.  Explain please. Reduced how and why... and compared to what?

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8 minutes ago, Wess said:

You lost me here.  Explain please. Reduced how and why... and compared to what?

Compared to a trimaran or catamaran which relay more on buoyancy to leeward than weight to windward for righting moment, therefor placing more load on their leeward beams while sailing than a pacific proa does on it's permanently windward beams.  

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20 hours ago, Solarbri said:

What an awesome contribution to the thread, Guvacine! Thanks for sharing your brilliance! 
And the same to you, Autonomous... when trying to be clever, putting others down by rewording a quote, it helps to know the difference between prey and prey. 
And while I don’t agree with everything he says, at least Rob attempts to add to the conversation with his experiences, which I can only imagine, is a hell of a lot more extensive then either of you two asshats. 
Why don’t you go beat your chest somewhere else? 
You must gave a proud boy meeting to attend to soon?

Solarbri,

Your are just as bad.

You are the troll that "invited" HarryProa to ruin this thread, just as he has every other proa-related thread on SA.

You have also boosted HarryProa on other threads.

I don't know what your motivation is, perhaps you just like stirring up conflict.

For new readers who don't know what the bile is about, HarryProa (Denney) has been relentlessly stalking Russell Brown and other proa advocates for many years on SA and other forums. One of the key reasons that HarryProa will not go away is that trolls like Solarbri take great delight in encouraging his unwanted rambling self-promoting posts.

Find another way to get your jollys, mate.

 

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23 minutes ago, r.finn said:

Compared to a trimaran or catamaran which relay more on buoyancy to leeward than weight to windward for righting moment, therefor placing more load on their leeward beams while sailing than a pacific proa does on it's permanently windward beams.  

So you are only referring to Pacific proas and not Atlantic proas with re the beam argument?

I gotta think a bit about what you are saying even re Pacific proas and beam loads.  Not disagreeing but its not intuitive to me that its so especially vs a cat (but even vs a tri) or why it matters.  I get the more efficient and potentially great SOG per build $ argument but that seems to come with some downsides too.

What really intrigues me about proas (any type) if its true is the claim that they can deal with heavy weather more easily, especially for a single hander.  I would have thought a tri to be better in that regard but curious your thoughts.

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1 minute ago, Wess said:

So you are only referring to Pacific proas and not Atlantic proas with re the beam argument?

I gotta think a bit about what you are saying even re Pacific proas and beam loads.  Not disagreeing but its not intuitive to me that its so especially vs a cat (but even vs a tri) or why it matters.  I get the more efficient and potentially great SOG per build $ argument but that seems to come with some downsides too.

What really intrigues me about proas (any type) if its true is the claim that they can deal with heavy weather more easily, especially for a single hander.  I would have thought a tri to be better in that regard but curious your thoughts.

I'm only referring to pacific proas.  When trying to understand the beam loads, consider where the mast is mounted and where the sail forces are directed.  I have never sailed a trimaran offshore solo.  I have with a crew and have spent hours watching beams flexing and leeward hulls going under water at speed.  Jzerro certainly feels safer than the trimarans I've taken offshore, but I'd never claim with authority that it is.  One thing I'm certain of is that singlehanding multhulls offshore at speed is a lot more stressful and dangerous than singlehanding monohulls.  I think Peyron said it, but essentially it's fewer sail changes with more stress. 

Can we get to the important question here though?  How many people here have flown a gyrocopter?  

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22 minutes ago, r.finn said:

I'm only referring to pacific proas.  When trying to understand the beam loads, consider where the mast is mounted and where the sail forces are directed.  I have never sailed a trimaran offshore solo.  I have with a crew and have spent hours watching beams flexing and leeward hulls going under water at speed.  Jzerro certainly feels safer than the trimarans I've taken offshore, but I'd never claim with authority that it is.  One thing I'm certain of is that singlehanding multhulls offshore at speed is a lot more stressful and dangerous than singlehanding monohulls.  I think Peyron said it, but essentially it's fewer sail changes with more stress. 

Can we get to the important question here though?  How many people here have flown a gyrocopter?  

Trying to bring it back to sailing instead of the proa trolling (though I do love a good troll... but I tend to do that on my own threads LOL).  And for sure you are an authority who has done other things besides proas which brings a lot of credibility.  Its why I at least am very interested in your thoughts on the type.  

If you can explain more about the proa's seakeeping ability in a blow offshore.  What I like about the tri is that it feels like its got more reserve stability than a cat and so feels safer to me.  I have never worried about structural integrity or the beams breaking.  Heard a few folks speak about how the proa is even more stable or safer.  I confess I don't get it.  Take the shot of Jzerro on your go fund me page.  Great pic BTW.  Really highlights the boat and the speed.  But here is what I don't get...

I look at the shot and think, damn, what happens when the boat stuffs into the back of a wave and slows down... the  apparent wind now goes way aft and stronger and my reserve stability in the windward float is already air-born (in a pacific proa) so diminishing (??) and now I am trusting the leeward pod to save me from capsize??  You have many successful miles in her and so clearly it does work somehow.  But intuitively I don't get how it does!

54376002_1612366499257160_r.jpeg.25e3f2ca7d8e0c66b6001276d3e9296c.jpeg

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47 minutes ago, Wess said:

I look at the shot and think, damn, what happens when the boat stuffs into the back of a wave and slows down... the  apparent wind now goes way aft and stronger and my reserve stability in the windward float is already air-born (in a pacific proa) so diminishing (??) and now I am trusting the leeward pod to save me from capsize??  You have many successful miles in her and so clearly it does work somehow.  But intuitively I don't get how it does!

Honestly I've never had solid water come above the prow and never felt the bow stuff in the back of a wave the way I have with other boats, especially monohulls.  The mast on Jzerro is only 36' off the deck and the main hull is 36' long, so it has much less leverage up high driving the bow down than a similarly sized trimaran, cat or monohull.  Also, the main hull of Jzerro has quite a lot of reserve buoyancy and freeboard.  It's nothing like pushing a trimaran hard down wind. 

     I have not sailed her in sustained winds above 40 knots, but have been happy with her stability in the 30's.  I distribute balance between sail area and water ballast.  In a big sea state, jzerro seems happiest with reduced sail area rather than loading the ama with a lot of ballast.  The ride is easier.  As for the pod, besides the damage I recently experience, it's been extremely useful and I would never singlehand a proa offshore without something to leeward.  It definitely prevents the ama from flying too high and gives me plenty of time to react with sail trim or by slowing the boat down, reducing apparent wind and in turn, returning the ama to the water.  Typically one or two of those and I reduce sail, add ballast or both.  Downwind the pod is essentially along for the ride and I've never had a roundup or round down.  

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Wess, Are you assuming that the windward float on a pacific proa is "already air-born?" If so then there is part of your confusion I think. It can sailed with the windward float air born but that is a precarious, unstable position.  Instead assume that prudent equilibrium sailing has the windward float always immersed some and therefore providing some buoyancy. Yes there is more drag but as the wind induced heeling moment increases, more of the windward hull is lifted out of the water in response.  Right up till the moment the windward hull lifts, the righting moment is increasing.  So as long as you drive the boat with the windward float with some immersion you have reserve righting moment in case the wind pipes up.  And as mentioned by Ryan, if that is not enough the pod helps out and tells you to reduce sail.

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2 minutes ago, Ovakus said:

Wess, Are you assuming that the windward float on a pacific proa is "already air-born?" If so then there is part of your confusion I think. It can sailed with the windward float air born but that is a precarious, unstable position.  Instead assume that prudent equilibrium sailing has the windward float always immersed some and therefore providing some buoyancy. Yes there is more drag but as the wind induced heeling moment increases, more of the windward hull is lifted out of the water in response.  Right up till the moment the windward hull lifts, the righting moment is increasing.  So as long as you drive the boat with the windward float with some immersion you have reserve righting moment in case the wind pipes up.  And as mentioned by Ryan, if that is not enough the pod helps out and tells you to reduce sail.

It's pretty awesome racing with a crew though, where there is someone constantly flying the ama with the mainsheet.  Unfortunately it's not possible singlehanded for any extended period.  

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It is an interesting question though: How much speed do you gain when you just lift the ama off the water -- and how sketchy is it? Or said the other way, how much of a speed penalty are you paying to have the windward hull somewhat immersed but yet ready to respond to changes in wind pressure?

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there have been some pacific proas built around the ama flying, John Pizzey used a daggerboard on the ama canted to windward so it developed enough lift to just keep the ama in the air most of the time.

And a few with daggerboard canted to leeward to keep the ama down.

 

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3 minutes ago, Ovakus said:

It is an interesting question though: How much speed do you gain when you just lift the ama off the water -- and how sketchy is it? Or said the other way, how much of a speed penalty are you paying to have the windward hull somewhat immersed but yet ready to respond to changes in wind pressure?

Never forget the brave men and women who used to race ORMA 60's across the Atlantic solo.  For sure they were not flying two hulls whenever possible, but they certainly did on occasion.  

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The Pizzey mode (ie lifting foil) seems interesting to me.  If the foil accidentally leaves the water then the full weight and righting moment is felt by the boat.  I guess I like the reserve righting moment aspect of the lifting foil. The opposite configuration seems scarier to me -- if the foil loses its grip on the water, the righting moment can drop dramatically right when the wind is piping up. I vaguely remember John Harris at CLC putting some kind of foil on Madness.  If I'm not dreaming that, what happened to it?

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4 minutes ago, Ovakus said:

The Pizzey mode (ie lifting foil) seems interesting to me.  If the foil accidentally leaves the water then the full weight and righting moment is felt by the boat.  I guess I like the reserve righting moment aspect of the lifting foil. The opposite configuration seems scarier to me -- if the foil loses its grip on the water, the righting moment can drop dramatically right when the wind is piping up. I vaguely remember John Harris at CLC putting some kind of foil on Madness.  If I'm not dreaming that, what happened to it?

I was on Madness a couple of times last week and didn't notice anything unusual about the foil setup.  Besides a new mast, I don't think the boat has had much done to it since launching.

Madness.jpg

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58 minutes ago, r.finn said:

It's pretty awesome racing with a crew though, where there is someone constantly flying the ama with the mainsheet.  Unfortunately it's not possible singlehanded for any extended period.  

I find it easier to feather the boat rather than play the mainsail, it is less tiring and gains ground upwind? It also helps save over dumping and having the ama come down with a bang.

50 minutes ago, Ovakus said:

It is an interesting question though: How much speed do you gain when you just lift the ama off the water -- and how sketchy is it? Or said the other way, how much of a speed penalty are you paying to have the windward hull somewhat immersed but yet ready to respond to changes in wind pressure?

If your ama is nearly out, you are not losing much speed. But it is certainly quieter once it is all out. You need pretty steady wind conditions for prolonged ama flight.

50 minutes ago, TwoBirds said:

there have been some pacific proas built around the ama flying, John Pizzey used a daggerboard on the ama canted to windward so it developed enough lift to just keep the ama in the air most of the time.

And a few with daggerboard canted to leeward to keep the ama down.

My Proa has/had the capacity to do both, it was hinged so it could pivot laterally. It does lift earlier, and when it “pops”, you do get some extra RM, but you still have to dump to be sure. I have not tried it with the board angled inboard, but I would expect that it would behave like water ballast, as Ryan has suggested, making it feel heavier. And beware the “pop”, because you suddenly have a lot less RM than before.

I took it off because I felt the boat was slower with it operating, the huge forces involved in controlling it, and it vibrated a lot, starting at around seven knots, up to about 9 knots, when it became quiet because enough of it (and the ama) was out of the water.

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14 minutes ago, r.finn said:

I was on Madness a couple of times last week and didn't notice anything unusual about the foil setup.  Besides a new mast, I don't think the boat has had much done to it since launching.

Why a new mast? Where are the rudders and tillers?

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Now I have my dreamt of foil proa issues somewhat clarified after some interwebz searching.  It appears the foil was used on Mbuli but not imported over to Madness:

"I had a discussion with John Harris of CLC Boats about his Bruce foil configuration used on the Ama of his Mbuli design. Why did he not continue the concept on Madness? His answer was brief and clear. The first time he grounded the Bruce foil on a sandbar and walked out on the trampoline between the Akas to pull up the angled foil he snapped the foil off at the exit of the trunk from the added weight. Practical real world problem meets theoretical benefits head on - and like all conflicts between theory and practice, practice won. The frustration of dealing with an expensive repair from a frequent real world problem taught him quickly that the benefits were not worth the risk in his particular case."

from https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/hinged-bruce-foil-proa.47040/page-5

But conclusion may well be similar to Sidecar's : in theory interesting but in practice not quite so

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15 minutes ago, r.finn said:

I was on Madness a couple of times last week and didn't notice anything unusual about the foil setup.  Besides a new mast, I don't think the boat has had much done to it since launching.

Madness.jpg

Is Madness pretty cramped inside compared to Jzzero?

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1 minute ago, TwoBirds said:

Is Madness pretty cramped inside compared to Jzzero?

Yes, and much lighter and low volume all around.  It would be a fantastic boat for camping and cruising around the Chesapeake, which is essentially what it's going to be doing.

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my observations are that Jzerro as well as Mr. Brown's G32 benefit tremendously from relatively short rigs and very efficient, easily driven hulls.  Another big safety factor of the proa is the ability to fully ease the sails.  For example, a couple week ago on my tri, as I was sailing out to weather it started getting a bit puffy from a somewhat unusual angle.  Going to weather it's pretty easy just to ease the main a bit and feather into the gusts but I was being lazy and I probably should have hove-to and rolled in a reef.  So, of course, when I turned to sail back home I was overpowered to the point that I had to ease the main all the way to the shroud.  Because I had to make the harbor entrance I wasn't able to drive down in the puffs (there was a continent dead downwind).  The boat was fine but it made for a stressful rather than relaxing sail.  Once the main is on the shroud downwind  your chances of getting things under control and reefing are greatly diminished, especially when solo.  I read a great story about an F-boat in a Farallones race in that situation.  They considered themselves very lucky to get the boat back in the Gate.   

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I sometimes sail off my mooring, starting off with the “windward” jib, and then hoisting the mainsail going dead downwind. Which you can’t do on any other kind of boat with any wind at all around....

The apparent wind hoisting and dropping a mainsail is less DDW than stationary or going into the wind, not that I do it for that reason.

Edited by Sidecar
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So then we agree, right?  A free standing, fully rotating rig on a trimaran wins?  Yay!  And now I seriously want a ride on Jzerro and Madness as well as Sidecar’s beautiful boat.  And if anybody happens to be flying around in a Gyrocopter I’ll probably give that a try too though I’m guessing my chances of being chopped into mincemeat are quite a bit higher than in an Airbus. 

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Less stability - less loads - less weights - faster or/and smaller rig - and cheaper.  With modern construction and materials the loads isnt a big problem but it cost money.

My tri was build with Aero-rig - to take he loads off so i could be very light. But an heavy boom was needed - when the hull could take that load.  But the asymmetric daggers is making big loads so the concept is not 100%. The aero-rig can also be depowered totally - but it showed that it wasnt as fast as a conventional rig. The designer states that its the slamming forces that is dimentional for the beams - not the daggers. But the dagger broke the beam... 

Talking about water ballast - Ryan say the boats feels faster when its light - I think thats correct - light is  always better - see the Marstrom 32 and the Seacart 30. And of c sail area in the light stuff. 

 

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19 hours ago, Guvacine said:

Solarbri,

Your are just as bad.

You are the troll that "invited" HarryProa to ruin this thread, just as he has every other proa-related thread on SA.

You have also boosted HarryProa on other threads.

I don't know what your motivation is, perhaps you just like stirring up conflict.

For new readers who don't know what the bile is about, HarryProa (Denney) has been relentlessly stalking Russell Brown and other proa advocates for many years on SA and other forums. One of the key reasons that HarryProa will not go away is that trolls like Solarbri take great delight in encouraging his unwanted rambling self-promoting posts.

Find another way to get your jollys, mate.

 

Not trolling. 
Not trying to start any shit fights. 
I’ve stated this before... I think the HarryProa concept makes a lot of sense. I think that Rob could add to the conversation...if you let him.
It’s that simple. 
I think he should buy an add here if he’s attempting to sell  his designs through his posts. 
But, even if he did that, I don’t think that the Rob hating gang would change. 

Carry on. 
This is some good Gyrocopter shit! 

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it's taken 20 years of really working at it  for harrytroll to piss this many people off, maybe if he were to stop being an asshole for 20 weeks people might stop being assholes back.

23 minutes ago, Solarbri said:

Not trolling. 
Not trying to start any shit fights. 
I’ve stated this before... I think the HarryProa concept makes a lot of sense. I think that Rob could add to the conversation...if you let him.
It’s that simple. 
I think he should buy an add here if he’s attempting to sell  his designs through his posts. 
But, even if he did that, I don’t think that the Rob hating gang would change. 

Carry on. 
This is some good Gyrocopter shit! 

 

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19 minutes ago, Solarbri said:

Not trolling. 
Not trying to start any shit fights. 
I’ve stated this before... I think the HarryProa concept makes a lot of sense. I think that Rob could add to the conversation...if you let him.
It’s that simple. 
I think he should buy an add here if he’s attempting to sell  his designs through his posts. 
But, even if he did that, I don’t think that the Rob hating gang would change. 

Carry on. 
This is some good Gyrocopter shit! 

I think it would be more insightful to hear from HarryProa sailors than from Rob, about sailing his designs, considering he doesn't have any extensive voyaging experience on his own designs.  After all they are the ones sailing his boats the most and will have more to share about their characteristics.  I feel like Sidecar and I have been pretty open and public with our sailing experiences.  It would be great to hear from some HarryProa owners, who I would consider a more reliable authority on Rob's designs.  As you have noticed, there are a lot of questions about proas and it's important to answer them based on experience rather than theory.

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56 minutes ago, Solarbri said:

Not trolling. 
Not trying to start any shit fights. 
I’ve stated this before... I think the HarryProa concept makes a lot of sense. I think that Rob could add to the conversation...if you let him.
It’s that simple. 
I think he should buy an add here if he’s attempting to sell  his designs through his posts. 
But, even if he did that, I don’t think that t.  and Plus 1he Rob hating gang would change. 

Carry on. 
This is some good Gyrocopter shit! 

Word.  And plus 1.  It just never ends. 

I am happy to hear from any proa designer, builder or sailor, be it an Atlantic, Pacific, or some other version.  And figure I have been around long enough to not need somebody else preaching to tell me what to believe or not. 

Strange that it always goes down this path.  You would think that maybe - given proas are already pretty far out there, with uncertain benefits and obvious drawbacks relative to other boats - that they could learn to stop eating their own.

I remain interested in understanding what the benefits and downsides to proas might be.  And I hope Ryan eventually gets to make a serious attempt on this journey as deeds and actual voyages will always trump talk be it from the Atlantic or Pacific crowd.

We now return you to the usual shit fight (which can be fun too).

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56 minutes ago, Wess said:

Word.  And plus 1.  It just never ends. 

I am happy to hear from any proa designer, builder or sailor, be it an Atlantic, Pacific, or some other version.  And figure I have been around long enough to not need somebody else preaching to tell me what to believe or not. 

Strange that it always goes down this path.  You would think that maybe - given proas are already pretty far out there, with uncertain benefits and obvious drawbacks relative to other boats - that they could learn to stop eating their own.

I remain interested in understanding what the benefits and downsides to proas might be.  And I hope Ryan eventually gets to make a serious attempt on this journey as deeds and actual voyages will always trump talk be it from the Atlantic or Pacific crowd.

We now return you to the usual shit fight (which can be fun too).

And that's why I called you out for trolling on the other thread Wess. You are just like Solabri - you claim to be a neutral and innocent observer, but you are always quietly boosting HarryProa at every opportunity. You say "strange that it always goes down this path", but it is trolls like you and Solabri who feed oxygen to HarryProa and "invite" him to come onboard to give some "balance" to the Proa "debate", when NOONE wants to hear AGAIN what HarryProa has to say about anything. Instead of feeding conflict on SA, why don't you go and sail that trimaran of yours?

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I am not claiming anything other than cracking up at nutters like you.  And that I would trust Ryan's input on proas more than others since he is out there sailing one.  I would like to hear Rob's views since 1.) he designs proas, and 2.) he seems to favor Atlantic proas which intuitively make more sense to me.  If you or others don't want to hear Rob's view there is this really simple concept called the ignore function.  But it seems to me you are more interested in trolling him than actually just ignoring him.  But whatever LOL it makes no difference to me. 

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4 minutes ago, Guvacine said:

And that's why I called you out for trolling on the other thread Wess. You are just like Solabri - you claim to be a neutral and innocent observer, but you are always quietly boosting HarryProa at every opportunity. You say "strange that it always goes down this path", but it is trolls like you and Solabri who feed oxygen to HarryProa and "invite" him to come onboard to give some "balance" to the Proa "debate", when NOONE wants to hear AGAIN what HarryProa has to say about anything. Instead of feeding conflict on SA, why don't you go and sail that trimaran of yours?

I don't think it's that clear cut.  Wess asked me some honest questions here and I gave him honest answers.  I don't think there was an agenda, but clearly there are some people who just don't understand how these boats work as a sailing platform, and they have questions. But I think it's on the sailors, not the designers to answer those questions.  I mean, how much time does Rod Johnstone spend fielding questions in JBoat Anarchy?

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

I am not claiming anything other than cracking up at nutters like you.  And that I would trust Ryan's input on proas more than others since he is out there sailing one.  I would like to hear Rob's views since 1.) he designs proas, and 2.) he seems to favor Atlantic proas which intuitively make more sense to me.  If you or others don't want to hear Rob's view there is this really simple concept called the ignore function.  But it seems to me you are more interested in trolling him than actually just ignoring him.  But whatever LOL it makes no difference to me. 

Just to clarify, Rob's designs aren't Atlantic proas.  Google "proa Cheers"

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2 minutes ago, r.finn said:

Just to clarify, Rob's designs aren't Atlantic proas.  Google "proa Cheers"

LOL, thanks.  Just learned something.  So Rob is doing Pacific proas, or is there another type?

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1 minute ago, Wess said:

LOL, thanks.  Just learned something.  So Rob is doing Pacific proas, or is there another type?

It's basically a pacific proa with the accomodations in the "ama".  That's the biggest difference.

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2 minutes ago, r.finn said:

It's basically a pacific proa with the accomodations in the "ama".  That's the biggest difference.

So shifting some weight to windward essentially?  Thanks.

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24 minutes ago, r.finn said:

I don't think there was an agenda, but clearly there are some people who just don't understand how these boats work as a sailing platform, and they have questions.

The persistent inability of some people to understand and accept the many explanations that have been offered is a deliberate choice.  They defend their beliefs without evidence that more righting moment is always better.  They posture as if they are neutral, the fallacy of "bothsidesism".  At some point, their endless questions become meaningless.

12 minutes ago, r.finn said:

It's basically a pacific proa with the accomodations in the "ama".  That's the biggest difference.

I'm sorry Ryan but no, that's not the biggest difference.  Having 50% or more displacement in the windward hull, like "Atlantic proas", is the biggest difference that affects so many other things like beam loads, ability (requirement) to carry more sail, extra drag, extra weight, etc., etc.  It's not a Pacific proa when the windward hull is heavier than the leeward hull.

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6 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

The persistent inability of some people to understand and accept the many explanations that have been offered is a deliberate choice.  They defend their beliefs without evidence that more righting moment is always better.  They posture as if they are neutral, the fallacy of "bothsidesism".  At some point, their questions become meaningless.

I'm sorry Ryan but no, that's not the biggest difference.  Having 50% or more displacement in the windward hull, like "Atlantic proas", is the biggest difference that affects so many other things like beam loads, ability (requirement) to carry more sail, extra drag, extra weight, etc., etc.  It's not a Pacific proa when the windward hull is heavier than the leeward hull.

I'm pretty sure that 50% displacement in the windward hull is due to having the accomodations in the ama, but I know you enjoy putting me in my place ;)

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5 minutes ago, r.finn said:

I'm pretty sure that 50% displacement in the windward hull is due to having the accomodations in the ama, but I know you enjoy putting me in my place ;)

That is a very backward and insulting statement.  It's the weight that really matters, not accommodation or rig placement.

Rig Placement and Heeling Load
by Tom Speer,  28 May 2001
http://pacificproa.com/rig_placement.html

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ProaSailor's comments are a good example of why it's important to hear from actual proa sailors.  Harry, Atlantic or otherwise.  It's time to put arguments based in theory on the shelf and hear some actual sailing experiences.  According to Rob, there are many HarryProa designs actively sailing.  Do any of those owners read this forum?

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1 minute ago, r.finn said:

ProaSailor's comments are a good example of why it's important to hear from actual proa sailors.

WTF does that mean?  I don't take kindly to ad hominem attacks so please stop them, they are a weak and fallacious form of argument.

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3 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

WTF does that mean?  I don't take kindly to ad hominem attacks so please stop them, they are a weak and fallacious form of argument.

It means, when there are people here asking very simple questions about these boats, it's not helpful to bombard them with minutiae.  Also between us, this is again becoming a rubbernecking thread. I'll stop posting if it prevents that.

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3 minutes ago, r.finn said:

It means, when there are people here asking very simple questions about these boats, it's not helpful to bombard them with minutiae.  Also between us, this is again becoming a rubbernecking thread. I'll stop posting if it prevents that.

Makes sense, wess has been posting in these threads for ages and doesn't even know the basics, up till now I've been assuming he's just stirring the pot and reacting accordingly.

I've been playing around with an idea for explaining the basic proa types as relates to a trimaran so it's easier to picture.

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I've found the thread interesting-despite the impoliteness between participants.   I tend to think of things in terms of toys.  A gyrocopter is a toy; serves very little other use...just for fun.  A trimaran is a toy until it gets to be really big enough to go across oceans.  Catamarans are toys again, until they get big enough to live on and cross big parts of water.  A proa???not a toy for me.  My piece of water sometimes takes 30 tacks to go 5 miles against current---would not be fun in a proa--might actually never get there.  

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2 minutes ago, TwoBirds said:

Makes sense, wess has been posting in these threads for ages and doesn't even know the basics, up till now I've been assuming he's just stirring the pot and reacting accordingly.

I've been playing around with an idea for explaining the basic proa types as relates to a trimaran so it's easier to picture.

Wess volunteered his trailer to haul Jzerro, among other services, and I nearly took him up on it before heading to Jim Brown's house to take care of it there. He's definitely an ally.

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r.finn, yes!  I love watching videos of different boats as well as hearing from experienced skippers.  Jzerro and Mr. Brown's R2AK G32 vids being perfect examples.  On paper I would have guessed that both Jzerro and the G32 would be half-assed gyrocopterish contraptions.  But obviously, in the hands of extremely skillful sailors they sail incredibly well.  I went through a lot of the same kind of hater flack being lucky enough to sail a lot on the Reynolds 33s. Some of the most amazing sailing imaginable, but so much hate from the peanut gallery, even the "progressive" multi establishment attacked remorselessly.  If you can watch a vid of Jzerro trucking along effortlessly at double digit speeds and not be impressed then so be it, but you can't ignore the many thousands of miles the boat has very succesfully sailed.  

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OK, just to stir up the pot here I am starting on a design for a GyroProa today and will post the results. Laugh if you must...

     I googled the term just now and thought I had found an example of 'prior art' but it turned out to be some really cool gyro stabilized binoculars.

https://www.gyropros.com/?doing_wp_cron=1612891583.4933910369873046875000

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16 minutes ago, r.finn said:

Wess volunteered his trailer to haul Jzerro, among other services, and I nearly took him up on it before heading to Jim Brown's house to take care of it there. He's definitely an ally.

Hey hey now.  Delete that damn it.  You are going to wreck my reputation.  You must have been talking to some other Wess.  My little Laser trailer could never hold Jzerro  and my Miata would have been pulled backwards down the ramp into the water LOL!  :ph34r:

On a serious note... I tip my cap to you for what you did and are doing.  Including the actual boat owning and sailing part!!!

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I wrote this eons ago (2011) and it's all dressed up over at pacificproa.com, but I prefer just the text. It seems like it might be valuable to some of you. I'd love to be involved in a proa forum, but not with the current climate. There are forums that are productive and helpful, but not this one. Please don't quote this text, It's too long.

 

Much is happening in the world of proas today, and while I'm not the worlds most technical guy, I understand a lot of how this one type of proa works and I'd like to share some of that. My views are based on lots of practical experience, but they are just my views. Please take them as that; one person's views on one type of proa.

The traditional Pacific proas are brilliant from so many aspects. While they evolved because of the available materials, there must have also been a very fertile boat design culture to achieve such fast, light, close winded sailing machines with nothing but sticks and string. Proas were, by far the most advanced sailing concept in the world at the time. This, because those fertile minds found ways to avoid the loads present in the structures of other multihull types. I believe their logic applies today, as much as ever.

Because I think it's the Pacific (or windward) proas strongest point, I'll start with my view of the structural issues. The main attraction for me to this type of proa is that the concept is, in my mind, as close to structurally perfect as a multihull sailboat can get. I think of it as more of a tension / compression structure than other multihulls. In flat water, one can be sailed as hard as possible and the structure is very lightly loaded. Yes, there's a bit of mast compression, (not so much, because of the wide staying base) and a small amount of bending load on the beams, but most of the sailing loads go to the shroud lifting the outrigger (tension). Adding water ballast doesn't load up the structure very much, and because the ballast is so far to windward, it doesn't take much. Compare this type with catamarans or trimarans which have bending and twisting loads, and are loaded from both sides, instead of just one. 

All this gets a bit more complicated when you add waves, but I think the proa looks pretty good there too. As an example, imagine any multihull sailing hard in very rough water. Say you are close reaching at very high speeds and get launched off a wave, go airborne and then land on the leeward hull. This will cause some pretty big loads in any boat even if the boat lands level, but say you are in a catamaran or trimaran and the leeward hull buries and tries to stop the boat, this will cause twisting loads on top of all the other loads. On a proa you would land on the main hull, which carries most of the mass and is big enough to not bury the nose and not fighting another hull as much. It's more like a monohull with a lever arm to windward instead of a keel.

My first boat, Jzero was a good study of loads for this type of proa, in that it was badly, cheaply and lightly built, and it was exposed to extreme conditions in the period that I owned it. Jzero was made from really cheap 1/4 inch plywood, redwood stringers, and small epoxy fillets in some of the corners. This boat cost originally about $400, so that you fully understand how badly it was built. The crossarms were 5 layers of fir 1" x 4's (3/4" x 3 1/2") glued together, for a total dimension of 4 1/2" x 3 1/2" and tapering toward the outrigger. The first set of cross arms failed. They were made from 2 Hemlock 2x4's, and failed at the inboard bolt hole on the outrigger connective. Hemlock looks sort of like fir, but it's not very strong.

Mark Balogh and I went through a very bad blow in this boat in 1978, the worst weather I had ever seen (until 1997), and still, I think, the biggest waves I have ever seen. This boat was raced hard and did quite well. It also went through three 100 knot hurricanes while I owned it. One was while it was anchored off the west end of St Croix, in the Virgin islands. I was not aboard, but someone else saw the boat getting towed by it's anchors through 20 foot breakers. A couple of days before this while I was trying to beat up the coast of St Croix to a safe harbor, the boat got launched off a wave, stood almost vertically, and then fell over on it's pod. The pod was built the same as the rest of the boat, 1/4" plywood and little fillets in the corners. While I believe that this boat had more than it's share of luck attached to it, I also learned from it that the configuration is very lightly loaded.

These are just my views, but they are based on lots of experience in proas, including having to drive very hard at times. I like to take it easy when sailing offshore, as you would in a boat that is uninsured, your home, and your lifeline, but there have been times when I have had to push very hard in bad conditions. Such as having to close reach for 100 miles in a rising gale and scary forecast, with large waves coming from three directions, to reach harbor before dark. That adventure really started trying to enter the harbor, but I had averaged over 12 knots for 100 miles in really wild conditions.Crossing a river bar in Australia I got broached by a large breaker and thrown very violently sideways from the crest to the trough, and back again, over and over for quite a long way. This took everything inside the boat and scrambled it into opposite sides and ends of the boat.

I have always thought that the biggest loads seen on my boats has been getting hit by a breaker when beam to. Because the main hull has most of the mass and lateral resistance, it doesn't want to push sideways until the wave hits the main hull, so when a wave hits the outrigger first, things load up. This is how the first Jzero broke.

I added carbon to the crossarms of Jzerro in Australia but this was only to stiffen them. What was happening was that the main hull would shudder when the boat was slammed by a wave. This was unsettling. One would think that flexibility would soften the ride, but not in this case. The beams on Jzerro are heavily built and weigh 120 pounds each. Jzerro weighs about 3200 pounds.

The rig is my favorite, and least favorite thing on my boats. Favorite because it's so light and efficient, least favorite because it's a lot of work to tack. But the rig is really the biggest compromise of a proa, is it not? I like the idea of a cat ketch type rig with free standing masts (like Cheers has) for a cruising proa, but the cost of the spars, and the compromise in performance are not attractive. If my boat did not perform so well, what would be the point of having it? Yes, it is work to tack, but the rig is so powerful for it's small size and can carry lots of sail in light airs. I think that the wide slot between the main and the jib (because the mast is stepped to windward) is partly responsible for the exceptional upwind performance.

The rig has other really great things about it as well. For instance, the boat will steer itself almost to a reach. This is good when going upwind in a blow, as the boat will feather into the squalls and keep a consistent speed, (unlike with the auto pilot), and the speed is easily adjustable by raising or lowering one of the rudders or trimming a sail. The self steering is made possible, I think, by the wide separation of main and jib. The main is eased slightly, so it luffs first. The jib will pull the bow off the wind, until the main fills, and the main pushes it back up, until it luffs.

Another great thing about this rig (compared to the same type of rig on other multihulls) is that the main can be dumped completely when overpowered when off the wind, as there are no shrouds on the lee side for the sail to hit. Jzerro's mast is aluminum, it's a wing section, 3 3/4" x 8 inches, it weighs 160 pounds with all the wires, and It is the same length as the boat. Getting caught aback, while a worry, has not yet been a problem. The boat seems to want to lie with the outrigger to windward. I have been caught aback twice on my present boat, once while asleep in lots of wind. I was able to pull the main down and turn the boat around with the jib.

The staying angle (headstays coming to main hull bows) is actually pretty good, but can't really be increased without the mainsail leech contacting the headstay (or backstay) when going upwind. When going downwind with the main up, the main is vanged down to the pod, so going aback would not be an issue. When going downwind in lots of wind, the main is down and just a jib or genoa up. This makes the steering easy (autopilot) and plenty of power. I averaged better than 10 knots this way from the Cook islands to Fiji with just a working jib.

To power the boat up downwind I sometimes use the main, and a genoa set free flying and tacked to the ama bow and sheeted to the pod. This seems to work really well at broad angles, and is easier to set and douse than the spinnaker.

Speed. I have never had a proa that had good sails and was tuned up for racing and usually my boats are loaded with lots of cruising gear, but I have done enough racing to know that it takes a very fast boat to beat the boats I've had. The passage that Mark Lamb and I did from Australia to New Zealand is a good example of upwind speed. The first 350 miles were good sailing, and then it was strong headwinds for the remaining 700 miles, including 2 1/2 days of heading slowly towards Antarctica. This passage took just over 6 days. What makes these boats so fast and weatherly? Certainly not high initial stability and raw horsepower. Maybe it's what Steve Callahan called "spiraling down the path of least resistance".

Longitudinal stability. Sailing nose down is something that all proas seem to do. This is another thing on the list of proa compromises that's difficult to get around. On any multihull, the leeward bow is what resists the forward drive from the rig. With most of the weight, volume, and buoyancy in the main hull, the windward proa configuration works well at resisting nose diving. Even still, things can get a bit weird on my boats, but only when broad reaching with way too much sail, trying to see how fast you can go. My fear of nose diving is why my boats have such big noses. I guess that fear has payed off, because it's not something that I worry about at sea. A friend of mine is designing a racing proa with articulating crossarms, so that the ballasted outrigger hull can be moved aft when pushing hard.

The Pod. One probably wouldn't sail this type of boat in the ocean without one. First, because it makes for a usable interior and a wonderful place to sleep, and second, because it would be unsafe. I say this even though in my present boat I have never had a knockdown. On my last boat I did have a couple of serious ones; One going fast with the spinnaker sheet wrapped around the tiller, the other in 60 knots of wind (said the nearby coastguard station). In both of these knockdowns the boat was pinned over for a period of time. On my first boat, with a small pod, I had a couple of serious knockdowns as well, one in quite rough weather.

The stability curve is quite a bit different than with other multihulls. In static conditions, these boats balance with the mast below horizontal, (past 90 degrees) this is because the whole main hull is lifted out of the water by the pod when you lean it on it's side. Keeping heavy things, such as water tanks, in the bilge of the main hull adds to this reserve stability. I'm not saying these boats are safer than anything else, because I don't know, but I have had some pretty serious knockdowns, and have not tipped over.

Water ballast. Who could argue with water ballast in a proa? It is always on the windward side of the boat, and it's so far out there that it doesn't take much of it. Adding ballast is easier than reefing, and the boat can be driven really hard with just a bit of ballast.

Steering. The rudders that I have used on all my proas are very similar to the rudders that Dick Newick devised for Cheers 45 years ago. These rudders are retractable and fit in trunks like a daggerboard. Like a daggerboard they are vulnerable to damage, but unlike the daggerboards in most multihulls, the trunks are separated from the rest of the hull in both directions by watertight bulkheads to prevent flooding in the event of an impact that damages the trunk. These rudders are small, yet provide very positive control. They are skeg rudders, so bending loads are taken by the skeg. The skeg doesn't help with low speed steering (I sometimes use both rudders for maneuvering), but the skeg adds much to high speed control. The skeg rudder is also very effective at creating lift if there's weather helm present. When going upwind, the forward rudder can be dropped just a bit to create weather helm. The aft rudder, having the skeg in front of the blade (looks like a wing sail in section), is a powerful lifting foil.

The rudders, while complicated to build, have been virtually trouble free on all my boats.

One of the misconceptions about these boats is that they often fly the outrigger hull. It's fun to fly the hull when goofing around and the magazines tend to pick only the dramatic photos, which has helped lead to this misconception. The outrigger hull does fly over the troughs when driving hard upwind, but in the ocean the boat is kept positively balanced. 

None of my boats have ever had a well designed outrigger hull. I would like to build an outrigger hull for my boat similar to the one on Harmen Heilkema’s proa have sailed on this boat and was very impressed. The outrigger hull was designed by Mike Toy. It is really beautiful and it doesn't have the bad habits that mine does.

An outrigger like that would be longer than the type that I have been using and could much more gracefully carry extra weight or ballast. A wave piercing shape, even though longer, might not add to the already minimal twisting loads on the structure. I don't see that the outrigger on a windward proa needs to contribute to longitudinal stability.

I look at proas now with an ever widening view of their advantages and disadvantages, compromises, and possibilities. I also know from experience that there's some real magic to this ancient configuration.

It has been a blast fooling around with these boats, but proas have a long way to go.

I hope that my observations help in the future development of these boats.

All the best,

Russell

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21 hours ago, r.finn said:

Honestly I've never had solid water come above the prow and never felt the bow stuff in the back of a wave the way I have with other boats, especially monohulls.  The mast on Jzerro is only 36' off the deck and the main hull is 36' long, so it has much less leverage up high driving the bow down than a similarly sized trimaran, cat or monohull.  Also, the main hull of Jzerro has quite a lot of reserve buoyancy and freeboard.  It's nothing like pushing a trimaran hard down wind. 

     I have not sailed her in sustained winds above 40 knots, but have been happy with her stability in the 30's.  I distribute balance between sail area and water ballast.  In a big sea state, jzerro seems happiest with reduced sail area rather than loading the ama with a lot of ballast.  The ride is easier.  As for the pod, besides the damage I recently experience, it's been extremely useful and I would never singlehand a proa offshore without something to leeward.  It definitely prevents the ama from flying too high and gives me plenty of time to react with sail trim or by slowing the boat down, reducing apparent wind and in turn, returning the ama to the water.  Typically one or two of those and I reduce sail, add ballast or both.  Downwind the pod is essentially along for the ride and I've never had a roundup or round down.  

Ryan, thanks for sharing your sailing experience, I make more sense of pacific proas now. I have a question : I guess the ama slams sometimes into waves as the weather ama of a tri would do and is that a problem when the ama is fully ballasted ? How do you handle this ?

Excuse me "trolls", I have nothing against Harry Proas but I understand it's a completely different story to fly a lightly ballasted ama compared to concentrate the load on an ama hosting the accommodations, we 're talking completely different concepts and different levels of loads on the akas...

I had the opportunity to sail along with Lady Godiva in Sete, another Atlantic proa from Dick Newick and Tahiti Douche (Atlantic too). Cool boats. Another proa is back to life in Ibiza, thanks to Stuart and Zack Rodgerson : Anglia Pipedream, I guess I have a photo somewhere...

 

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