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51 minutes ago, halfmoon said:

Vessel was built in 1975...

Not that relevant.  Flags of convenience 99% of the time mean that they are poorly maintained.  

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58 minutes ago, sailman said:

Not that relevant.  Flags of convenience 99% of the time mean that they are poorly maintained.  

Not to pick a fight, but 45 years as a bulker is tough service for a ship of any flag.  Even our highly-touted, very expensive, US flag merchant marine has had its share of doozies.  There was a period in the 80s and 90s when a large percentage of the fleet was old, worn out pieces of junk.  The Marine Electric, a US flagged bulker, went down in 1983 being only 30 years old.  I know people who worked on US flag ships that had large, rusted out holes in the bulkheads just cemented over.  Even today, reference the El Faro disaster, and even after that there is still a ship I see on a regular basis that had its aft section built in 1963.  Was restrained in port a couple years ago because the lifeboat davits were falling off....  The Arvin here should have been scrapped 20 years ago, regardless.

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8 hours ago, Foreverslow said:

https://gcaptain.com/terrifying-video-shows-cargo-ship-break-in-half-off-turkey/

looks like the captain was a bit lax alerting the crew.  Over half are dead or missing.

 

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The incident took place January 17 when the Palau-flagged Arvin broke in half and sunk at a Black Sea anchorage off the Port of Bartin. The 1975-built ship was reported to be carrying 2,902 tons of urea.

  

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Did this happen when the ship was anchored? In the video it looked to me like there was a series of three or 5 really MUCH bigger waves than the rest, but the ship was obviously coming apart.

Any hope of finding the missing crewmen?

- DSK

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51 minutes ago, NaClH20 said:

Not to pick a fight, but 45 years as a bulker is tough service for a ship of any flag.  Even our highly-touted, very expensive, US flag merchant marine has had its share of doozies.  There was a period in the 80s and 90s when a large percentage of the fleet was old, worn out pieces of junk.  The Marine Electric, a US flagged bulker, went down in 1983 being only 30 years old.  I know people who worked on US flag ships that had large, rusted out holes in the bulkheads just cemented over.  Even today, reference the El Faro disaster, and even after that there is still a ship I see on a regular basis that had its aft section built in 1963.  Was restrained in port a couple years ago because the lifeboat davits were falling off....  The Arvin here should have been scrapped 20 years ago, regardless.

Back in '99 when you could still run SB in SH tankers, The former "Philadelphia Sun" was still sailing--as was the Fredericksburg, the latter had an early 50s aft section built at Ingalls. My European colleague was looking out the window one day and I saw him shaking his head and muttering, "unbelieveable." I said, "what is it now?"   "That ship, still in service?" "Yes, of course,  oldie but a goodie, built right down the river from here in1962."  That's older than the museum ships back home!"  Hahahaha.

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5 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

Generally these older US flag ships were built with very thick mild steel and many are doing fine after 50+ years service.   Completely different than the ship in the thread title. 

Well, they were built to ABS Rules--and quite a few had HSS (DH32, AH32 etc) upper and lower and corrosion control reduced thickness margin, so no, not really true in every case. As I remember it, the KENAI and her sisterships PRINCE EDWARD SOUND and I think another were DH32 Deck and bottom. But they were "ecological tankers" (double hull) and so were "turnkey" for OPA90:)

I do seem to remember the FREDERICKSBURG being all OSS though (24 kg/mm^2).

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Noticed that the speaker keeps saying "Mayday", and perhaps the name of his vessel, and mentions that it is "broken".  He doesn't seem to say where he is or supply other info, or leave much space for a reply from anyone.  Makes helping him difficult, on top of the nasty conditions. 

 

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12 minutes ago, PaulK said:

Noticed that the speaker keeps saying "Mayday", and perhaps the name of his vessel, and mentions that it is "broken".  He doesn't seem to say where he is or supply other info, or leave much space for a reply from anyone.  Makes helping him difficult, on top of the nasty conditions. 

 

So true. Also was expecting him to send someone forward for a damage report.

 

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10 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

Of course not true in every case. But in general the difference in a 45 year old Slovakian built versus USA built are pretty substantial  

Perhaps they built to GL? Lighter scantlings than ABS.

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She was sailing under the SRU Class (Shipping Register of Ukraine). Didn't know they had their own Class and before that under the Russian Class. Not jumping to conclusions but bet they don't have they same standards as the normal Classes (DNV-GL, LR, ABS etc.). Most of her major certificates expired in a few months. probably wouldn't have made it through the next 5yr re-certifications. Bulk ships get increased scrutiny after they hit the 20yr mark.

Sad for the crew

 

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Did this happen when the ship was anchored? In the video it looked to me like there was a series of three or 5 really MUCH bigger waves than the rest, but the ship was obviously coming apart.

Any hope of finding the missing crewmen?

- DSK

Maybe he was anchored.... At the beginning of the video there there is a smaller vessel off his port bow. About half way through there is a ship off his starboard bow that's looks like it's pretty close but may be steaming.  

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1 hour ago, Matt DI said:

She was sailing under the SRU Class (Shipping Register of Ukraine). Didn't know they had their own Class and before that under the Russian Class. Not jumping to conclusions but bet they don't have they same standards as the normal Classes (DNV-GL, LR, ABS etc.). Most of her major certificates expired in a few months. probably wouldn't have made it through the next 5yr re-certifications. Bulk ships get increased scrutiny after they hit the 20yr mark.

Sad for the crew

 

Interesting. SRU not in IACS...so there is that. I think you may have found something--the ship was probably on her last voyage before the knacker.

http://en.shipregister.ua/about/index.html

But SRU is ISO 9001. I haven't bothered to explore the edges of class society society recently. I think the last "off label" class I worked with the IRS--teh International REgistry of Shipping which more or less said, "for scantlings, see ABS" or somehting

image.thumb.png.fb9efecb0ee3fc8b67e9c8ea5ce62ddc.pngimage.thumb.png.2de2f8ab243df0fe6dde9c8670b38f77.png

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It made one trip too many before going to the breakup beach. It looks anchored as the foam on the water doesn’t slip past with the waves.

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24 minutes ago, Bruno said:

Thought it looked rather like a canal or riverine vessel.

showphoto.aspx?photoid=2144672

F'csle does not look to meet Bow Height...very much not an offshore type. She may be restricted service type.

showphoto.aspx?photoid=2938492

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In aviation a Mayday call would include identification, position, heading, altitude, nature of emergency and intentions. Then pause for possible response. Repeat as necessary, task load and situation permitting. Whoever is making this call isn't giving any potential assisting vessels enough to go on. Just "mayday" and "Arvin".

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27 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

showphoto.aspx?photoid=2084000

showphoto.aspx?photoid=868276

Maybe that fcsle meets the rules. Pictures can be deceiving.

 

Looks rather hogged in those pics, too

Would that get worse at full load, or empty?

FB- Doug

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4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Looks pretty flexible. Are we sure that ship was not built using forbidden cardboard derivatives?

FB- Doug

Looked more like the cheap tape to me.

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8 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Looks rather hogged in those pics, too

Would that get worse at full load, or empty?

FB- Doug

Empty. Full load typically sag, if uniform and down to loadline. The hog is caused at light becasue of overhanging wegith of fcsle and of machinery--more mass than volume back there.

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6 hours ago, sailman said:

Not that relevant

Built in 1975? A bulker? Poorly maintained, and a recipe for disaster

Most river rules you design to use 0.6m or max 1m waves (designer can select weather criteria).  Being a river vessel the L/D ratio might be high; they can be hard to have enough strength.

And then you don't know how it was loaded as well.

Shitty MAYDAY call as well.

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22 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Built in 1975? A bulker? Poorly maintained, and a recipe for disaster

Most river rules you design to use 0.6m or max 1m waves (designer can select weather criteria).  Being a river vessel the L/D ratio might be high; they can be hard to have enough strength.

And then you don't know how it was loaded as well.

Shitty MAYDAY call as well.

It was a bulker being used out of it's designed category and probably poorly maintained.  Everyone is quick to jump on the easy excuse of age.  Its a weak starting point if you don't know the history of the vessel.  Agreed on the mayday call too.

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Bulkers don't make a lot of money for the owners (compared to say a container ship or oil tanker). So they are poorly maintained. If unloaded with grabs, the bottom plating of the hold suffers a lot. Yes, poor maintenance certainly can make things worse. I guess I'd say I'd be surprised if ANY bulker of that age was in decent condition (except fresh water boats like Great Lakes ships)

 

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38 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Best way to avoid such a disaster as the ARVID.

Stubby, one of my favorite ships! - Album on Imgur

 

At least on this one they even tell you where to cut it. Along the dotted line, where else?

How do I indicate a cut for a dotted line in a dieline? - Graphic Design  Stack Exchange

Stewart J Cort.  First thousand footer on the lakes.

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In Australia we had a great comedy partnership in John Clark and Brian Dawe and they would do a once a week comedy peace on a current affairs show on topical event. 

 

One of the the most famous sketches is on a ship that the front fell off. Enjoy

 

Pulpit

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

The question I have: why did Bethlehem Steel contract to Ingalls instead of building at Sparrow's Point or heck, somewhere on the lakes? What was the back story?

http://www.interlake-steamship.com/our-fleet/m-v-stewart-j.-cort/

Bethlehem is the contracted shipping customer, not the owner.

Litton owned both the yard in Mississippi and the final yard in Erie at the time, so there was only one builder.

 

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apart from the obvious questions if this will buff out and if it's yes or no in or out the environment, the mayday call is questioned ... the man would fail miserably at his vhf or r/o or master examination , but then on the other hand, having had the weird experience of being on a (thenwhile) biggish container monster which was bending heavily when going on top of a wave or stem/stern on top of wave and midships in the air in an F12 mid atlantic gale and first officer freaking out totally and near literally wetting his pants, have to mention that the call of this man whose experience was probably mostly river and coastal was, when seeing the boat practically fold, errrr.... predictable. That's not an excuse, it's just like human, how would each one of us react when our little yot would break in 2 ?

junk is as junk goes

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26 minutes ago, Tax Man said:

Bethlehem is the contracted shipping customer, not the owner.

Litton owned both the yard in Mississippi and the final yard in Erie at the time, so there was only one builder.

 

Oh! So even more interesting. Beth Steel needed a ship but instead of using their own yard they contracted Ingalls. Interesting.

 

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14 minutes ago, Albatros said:

apart from the obvious questions if this will buff out and if it's yes or no in or out the environment, the mayday call is questioned ... the man would fail miserably at his vhf or r/o or master examination , but then on the other hand, having had the weird experience of being on a (thenwhile) biggish container monster which was bending heavily when going on top of a wave or stem/stern on top of wave and midships in the air in an F12 mid atlantic gale and first officer freaking out totally and near literally wetting his pants, have to mention that the call of this man whose experience was probably mostly river and coastal was, when seeing the boat practically fold, errrr.... predictable. That's not an excuse, it's just like human, how would each one of us react when our little yot would break in 2 ?

junk is as junk goes

They need to practice being on sinking ships more often in maritime college. :-(

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

They need to practice being on sinking ships more often in maritime college. :-(

Man if i had a buck for every lifeboat, man overboard, fire, etc. drill i did at maritime college i could've retired when i graduated.

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DEF is a small part of the urea market. Ag is the big daddy. And truthfully, the sinking of this ship has nothing to do with price swings. My small company sells ten times this vessel's tonnage per year, and we're just minnows in the nitrogen market. 

Still, it's something to talk about when customers complain about the price bumps.

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Just a portion of the Nitrogen for Fl ag comes in 20000 ton loads every week to tampa by oceangoing AT/B HArvest/Abundance from New Orleans.

Not urea but the nitrogen market is enormous. One little toy boat...nothing

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17 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Best way to avoid such a disaster as the ARVID.

Stubby, one of my favorite ships! - Album on Imgur

 

At least on this one they even tell you where to cut it. Along the dotted line, where else?

How do I indicate a cut for a dotted line in a dieline? - Graphic Design  Stack Exchange

Those Seaway locks are such limits.... 

 

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