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Polynesians an education


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6 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

Here we should provide some reading so people can appreciate the amazing history of the Polynesians.

Well why don't you start?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesian_navigation

Then think Homo Erectus sailed across lake Tanzania 2m years ago.

Homo Sapiens were in the south of Indonesian 1.8m years ago looking at the birds flying off over the horizon to land.

There is a big gap in evidence until about 7,000 years ago, but language points to some interesting hypothesises about where some came from long before 7,000 years ago.

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"Sometime between 1300 and 1550, Māori from New Zealand settled on the Chatham Islands (Rēkohu), more than 750 km south-east of the mainland."  from Te Papa History.

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3 hours ago, Kiwing said:

"Sometime between 1300 and 1550, Māori from New Zealand settled on the Chatham Islands (Rēkohu), more than 750 km south-east of the mainland."  from Te Papa History.

Well I suggest you update your sources.  It wasn't the Maori but the Moriori that settled first and at the time you suggest.  Although there is evidence that the ventured there earlier.  Did they sail or paddle?

Did you actually read the history or just buy the books and symbolically show them on your bookcase?

https://teara.govt.nz/en/moriori/page-1#:~:text=The Moriori are the indigenous,east of mainland New Zealand.&text=Current research indicates that Moriori,from New Zealand about 1500.

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I am so pleased some facts are starting to be discussed, indicating the Polynesians were great sailors and they were far ahead of the Europeans.  There are many gaps in the evidence and many conflicting hypothesises.  The more you research this the more you find old school thought is way behind new hypothesises.  There is DNA evidence from Stanford University that primates evolved in Australian to Homo Sapiens "Out of Australia" but lets not go there please.  I assure you I do research this in a private interest mode.

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3 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

the Polynesians were great sailors and they were far ahead of the Europeans. 

lol

" cue = tui's "

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@dullers I lost what respect I had for Britain when you ditched us to go into the ECC.  Shows what a good decision that was.

I believe Polynesians are just as civilized as us just in a different way.  The British have a lot to learn from them.  But those with their heads in the sand will not learn anything.

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@dullers and the Chinese circumnavigated the world long before Europeans.  In fact Marko Polo bought back maths books from China that led to many European mathematical "discoveries".

Your Empire centric world is fragile to research.

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6 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

@dullers I lost what respect I had for Britain when you ditched us to go into the ECC.  Shows what a good decision that was.

I believe Polynesians are just as civilized as us just in a different way.  The British have a lot to learn from them.  But those with their heads in the sand will not learn anything.

You never had respect, just a we republican chip. Or you would remember the democracy and way of life you got from that terrible Country the other side of the world.  You might think about us when you use carbon fibre on your ac boat or stainless steel. Radar even or even the world wide web though i have my doubts about that. I asked you for links to your claims but you provided nothing. Please tell us what we could learn? Tell us what we should learn? 

I do understand your gripe about going into the EEC but we have lousy politicians just like you.

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7 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

@dullers and the Chinese circumnavigated the world long before Europeans.  In fact Marko Polo bought back maths books from China that led to many European mathematical "discoveries".

Your Empire centric world is fragile to research.

The thing is I never made claims about that.  Again the proof the Chinese circumnavigated the world is pretty thin.  Cant deny the maths but why would i? I never made any claims about that. I asked for your links and you gave none. You hit rock bottom but kept digging.

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It doesn't matter who circumnavigated the world first.  DNA has proven that Polynesians are derived from Asia and predominantly what we now call China.

In terms of navigation earlier "Nations" all spent their cold nights looking at the sky.  The recognised patterns relative to what they did during the day, the month, the year.  

They also knew that the Sun rose in the East and sunk in the West.  Or rather the same direction every day relative to the rock or reef that was the centre of their life.

Many Civilisations arrived at the same conclusions at the same time or earlier or later.  They didn't have the internet in those days.

It all comes back to our common evolutionary advantage - the 3lb universe.  Our brains.  Maybe it has evolved too far.

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Actually Polynesian navigators used many different clues, waves (they could see reflections from islands over the horizon), birds (coming from in the morning and returning to land in the evening) cloud forms (the standing cigar clouds above islands (I saw on a flight to Japan)), phosphorescence at night caused by pressure waves reflections and many others. I hosted a German film crew who made a film about them and the producer told me at the end of two long voyages the navigator was spot on.  But more he was also far more accurate weather forecasting than their marine weather information.

Amazing and interesting if you allow yourself to not be a know all.

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9 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

Actually Polynesian navigators used many different clues, waves (they could see reflections from islands over the horizon), birds (coming from in the morning and returning to land in the evening) cloud forms (the standing cigar clouds above islands (I saw on a flight to Japan)), phosphorescence at night caused by pressure waves reflections and many others. I hosted a German film crew who made a film about them and the producer told me at the end of two long voyages the navigator was spot on.  But more he was also far more accurate weather forecasting than their marine weather information.

Amazing and interesting if you allow yourself to not be a know all.

I'm not a know all however I'm not blinded by prejudice.  Everything you have described was identified by many different variants of the human race.  You just seek to assign it to one.

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5 hours ago, Kiwing said:

@southseasbill the British taught cowardice to Maori.  They killed the "Noble savage"?

They divided and conquered them.

err no, the law of the land as it was  was that "if you're beaten you;re eaten". this the new arrrivals failed to do

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26 minutes ago, 167149 said:

err no, the law of the land as it was  was that "if you're beaten you;re eaten". this the new arrrivals failed to do

Well the French and Captain Cook introduced pigs which stopped them eating each other.  Apparently the crackling was better.

 

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22 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Apparently the crackling was better.

not according to an almost disappeared book called the cannibal isles .. a diary by one of the first european traders

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I'm gonna take a short cut..

Wharram Catamarans.

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7 hours ago, Kiwing said:

I believe Polynesians are just as civilized as us just in a different way. 

Like in a, "let's eat each other" kind of way? 

(Wasn't cannibalism a common practice until not so long ago?)

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7 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

Like in a, "let's eat each other" kind of way? 

(Wasn't cannibalism a common practice until not so long ago?)

 how about holy men preying on choir boys....

This is turning into a my race is better than yours argument...ie racist. 

Shamefull

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The contest hasn't changed. It's still about, "mine's better'n yours". Just take your pick of currency:

- Boats

- Nationality

- Ancestry

- Cultural Norms

- Dicks

- #YOUCHOOSE

 

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26 minutes ago, Filthy Phill said:

This is turning into a my race is better than yours argument.

Maybe in your head, but no. 

Pretty stupid and aggressive post you just made. 

 

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9 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Like in a, "let's eat each other" kind of way? 

(Wasn't cannibalism a common practice until not so long ago?)

Fuck off with your racists tropes...

(how's that for aggressive?)

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On 2/3/2021 at 5:46 PM, dullers said:

You never had respect, just a we republican chip. Or you would remember the democracy and way of life you got from that terrible Country the other side of the world.  You might think about us when you use carbon fibre on your ac boat or stainless steel. Radar even or even the world wide web though i have my doubts about that. I asked you for links to your claims but you provided nothing. Please tell us what we could learn? Tell us what we should learn? 

I do understand your gripe about going into the EEC but we have lousy politicians just like you.

High nickel steel was used in South Asian and central Asia for about a thousand years. Not an English invention.

How is it we should credit The English for democracy when there are many examples of it world wide in cultures that were wiped up by us white folk.

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20 minutes ago, rustylaru said:

High nickel steel was used in South Asian and central Asia for about a thousand years. Not an English invention.

How is it we should credit The English for democracy when there are many examples of it world wide in cultures that were wiped up by us white folk.

I see you dodge the point. High nickel steel is not stainless steel.  Which democracies did we destroy? Provide links Your chip is bigger than i expected. What country are you from or are you a citizen of the world?

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40 minutes ago, dullers said:

I see you dodge the point. High nickel steel is not stainless steel.  Which democracies did we destroy? Provide links Your chip is bigger than i expected. What country are you from or are you a citizen of the world?

What point did I dodge?

Sure, I failed to list the many constituent components of stainless steel. You sure exposed me as a complete fraud. I admit it. I'm a Russian bot farm trying to sow division.

My genetic heritage is Danes/Vikings that invaded the South of Briton (am I using the correct term for the island?). Someone in our wicked family past stole a loaf of bread and was shipped to Australia  as indentured labor who's children found their way to NZ and fucked a sheep. So here I am in Mexico with a fuzzy white fleece trying to cross the boarder north in the largest mass migration in history. I'm hoping this woolly getup maybe of more use in the chilly northern climate.

I am a well balanced person. I have a chip on both shoulders.

But if I might be serious for moment. Do you accept that the English version of " history" might look more than a little English centric from the outside?

 

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22 minutes ago, rustylaru said:

Someone in our wicked family past stole a loaf of bread and was shipped to Australia

So dumb and unsuccessful thief hmm?  Not the best starting point for a genetic line.

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19 minutes ago, rustylaru said:

What point did I dodge?

Sure, I failed to list the many constituent components of stainless steel. You sure exposed me as a complete fraud. I admit it. I'm a Russian bot farm trying to sow division.

My genetic heritage is Danes/Vikings that invaded the South of Briton (am I using the correct term for the island?). Someone in our wicked family past stole a loaf of bread and was shipped to Australia  as indentured labor who's children found their way to NZ and fucked a sheep. So here I am in Mexico with a fuzzy white fleece trying to cross the boarder north in the largest mass migration in history. I'm hoping this woolly getup maybe of more use in the chilly northern climate.

I am a well balanced person. I have a chip on both shoulders.

But if I might be serious for moment. Do you accept that the English version of " history" might look more than a little English centric from the outside?

 

My serious question was what democracies did we destroy? You did not answer.  I put before you that stainless steel was pioneered in the UK. Other alloys have existed before but that was not my point as you well know. Again a link please to both the use of SS and destroyed democracies to back up your point. My English centric version of history is as normal as your centric version of history. You still have not told me what country you are from? By the way I am proud of British history, warts and all. Is Kiwi wing your twin? 

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2 minutes ago, Zonker said:

So dumb and unsuccessful thief hmm?  Not the best starting point for a genetic line.

Actually Aussies are fighting to find an export in their lineage - very fashoinalble.

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16 minutes ago, dullers said:

My serious question was what democracies did we destroy? You did not answer.  I put before you that stainless steel was pioneered in the UK. Other alloys have existed before but that was not my point as you well know. Again a link please to both the use of SS and destroyed democracies to back up your point. My English centric version of history is as normal as your centric version of history. You still have not told me what country you are from? By the way I am proud of British history, warts and all. Is Kiwi wing your twin? 

So it's incumbent on me to provide you with links and yet you are not required to do the same to support your assertions.  Interesting.

I sorry for implying UK is a democracy when you are a constitutional  monarchy. My generalization can be a touch general.

 

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29 minutes ago, Zonker said:

So dumb and unsuccessful thief hmm?  Not the best starting point for a genetic line.

How dare you disparage my ancestors. I challenge you to a duel. Pistols at dawn in a time zone of your choosing.

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1 minute ago, rustylaru said:

So it's incumbent on me to provide you with links and yet you are not required to do the same to support your assertions.  Interesting.

I sorry for implying UK is a democracy when you are a constitutional  monarchy. My generalization can be a touch general.

 

Ok i will say it straight. The UK has never invaded a democracy. Stainless steel was pioneered in the UK based on prior research  by other nations but mainly the Swiss. I don't need links because they are historical facts regardless of your centric point on history. You made 2 wrong assertions and your generalisations can be a touch completely wrong.  Again you give me no idea where you get your historical influence from but i suspect you read your history from the book of woke and yoga.

Now your links please. You made your statements and have failed to back it up.....Your country of birth residence etc?

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

The UK has never invaded a democracy. Stainless steel was pioneered in the UK

Two of the most qualified hyperboles in recent memory! congrats

A 'democracy' as if only such a construct as perceived by western cultures are valid and others are fair game for invasion...

and 'pioneered' that old soft chestnut that means precisely diddly squat...

shucks...

tenor.gif?itemid=11382871

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Mrs/Mr/Other Dullers.

When the English created a colony in Jamestown VA they were invading the land of another people. You might have considered that other people as being a Chiefdom structured society and so not a democracy. Fair enough. But some might contend that and constitutional monarchy is not a democracy either. I would say England is a democracy because the average member has a say in selecting their leaders and the ability to seek a reasonably level of justice and by that measure many Chiefdom structured societies had an equivalent level of rights.  So if you need me to provide you with a link proving that English invaded peoples without a parliament, but with a good level control over the cultural structures of their lives, then I would please ask you to provide me with links that prove water is wet. Also I don't know how to add links on this device.

I think you might ethnocentric. I suspect you consider your cultural standards and definitions the measure by which we all must meet.   I understand. I am racist, sexist, homophobe dyslexic with latent anger issues, so we all got our cross to bear.

I'm off to have my chakra's balanced by a crystal healing  Qanon Shaman so  I won't have time to respond further, which should give you ample opportunity to demand the birth country and shirt size from others.

 

Edited by rustylaru
Greeting added.
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1 hour ago, dullers said:

The UK has never invaded a democracy

True the usual British modus operandi was democratization by force or simply drawing expedient lines of demarcation through others sandpits.  

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17 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Two of the most qualified hyperboles in recent memory! congrats

A 'democracy' as if only such a construct as perceived by western cultures are valid and others are fair game for invasion...

and 'pioneered' that old soft chestnut that means precisely diddly squat...

shucks...

tenor.gif?itemid=11382871

Just name a democracy the UK has invaded real or imagined?  You can refute me with a name of a country. It is that easy. Just one name please. I am begging you....Google will help you with stainless steel.

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8 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

True the usual British modus operandi was democratization by force or simply drawing expedient lines of demarcation through others sandpits.  

Can you get an answer to the original claims?

 

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2 hours ago, dullers said:

Just name a democracy the UK has invaded real or imagined?  You can refute me with a name of a country. It is that easy. Just one name please. I am begging you....Google will help you with stainless steel.

Perhaps reread what I wrote... and perhaps rustylaru's too...

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Let us go back in time . . 

It's 1769 and Capt Cook sails into Poverty Bay (NZ) and drops anchor. 

On shore, several Maori are watching the events unfold. 

One turns to the rest and inquires, 

"What's it rate ??"

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58 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Does Argentina count?

If you're refering to the Falklands/Malvinas conflict I think you'll find at the time Argentina was under a military dictatorship, besides the British forces didn't invade Argentina, they just retook what they believed to be there's.

Not saying that Britain has never invaded a democracy (although I can't think of one off hand, history is not my strongpoint) just that your example doesn't hold water.

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1 hour ago, Woolfy said:

If you're refering to the Falklands/Malvinas conflict I think you'll find at the time Argentina was under a military dictatorship, besides the British forces didn't invade Argentina, they just retook what they believed to be there's.

Not saying that Britain has never invaded a democracy (although I can't think of one off hand, history is not my strongpoint) just that your example doesn't hold water.

An irrelevant historical note of the worlds 200 countries only 22 have not been invaded by the British.

 

 

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2 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Let us go back in time . . 

It's 1769 and Capt Cook sails into Poverty Bay (NZ) and drops anchor. 

On shore, several Maori are watching the events unfold. 

One turns to the rest and inquires, 

"What's it rate ??"

and does it "go" with puha ?

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6 hours ago, Woolfy said:

If you're refering to the Falklands/Malvinas conflict I think you'll find at the time Argentina was under a military dictatorship, besides the British forces didn't invade Argentina, they just retook what they believed to be there's.

Not saying that Britain has never invaded a democracy (although I can't think of one off hand, history is not my strongpoint) just that your example doesn't hold water.

It is not just the UK has never invades a democracy, no democracy has ever invaded another democracy or even declared war on each other. You have to take one step at a time with some people. 

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5 hours ago, Priscilla said:

An irrelevant historical note of the worlds 200 countries only 22 have not been invaded by the British.

 

 

Impressive hey.

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9 hours ago, rh3000 said:

Perhaps reread what I wrote... and perhaps rustylaru's too...

Have you edited them all?

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12 hours ago, rustylaru said:

Mrs/Mr/Other Dullers.

When the English created a colony in Jamestown VA they were invading the land of another people. You might have considered that other people as being a Chiefdom structured society and so not a democracy. Fair enough. But some might contend that and constitutional monarchy is not a democracy either. I would say England is a democracy because the average member has a say in selecting their leaders and the ability to seek a reasonably level of justice and by that measure many Chiefdom structured societies had an equivalent level of rights.  So if you need me to provide you with a link proving that English invaded peoples without a parliament, but with a good level control over the cultural structures of their lives, then I would please ask you to provide me with links that prove water is wet. Also I don't know how to add links on this device.

I think you might ethnocentric. I suspect you consider your cultural standards and definitions the measure by which we all must meet.   I understand. I am racist, sexist, homophobe dyslexic with latent anger issues, so we all got our cross to bear.

I'm off to have my chakra's balanced by a crystal healing  Qanon Shaman so  I won't have time to respond further, which should give you ample opportunity to demand the birth country and shirt size from others.

 

Of course you dont have time to respond further. You have run out of wrong answers. Slink off back into your alternate reality.

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4 hours ago, dullers said:

It is not just the UK has never invades a democracy, no democracy has ever invaded another democracy or even declared war on each other. You have to take one step at a time with some people. 

But democracies have waged vicious covert wars against other democracies . .  

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

But democracies have waged vicious covert wars against other democracies . .  

So not invaded or declared war? Which covert wars are these?

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44 minutes ago, dullers said:

So not invaded or declared war? Which covert wars are these?

US vs. Chile in the 1970's; US vs. Nicaragua in the 1980's; Guatemala and Iran in the 1950's 

tens of thousands were murdered  

that is just for openers . . 

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

Dont you have Google? Not one of those was a democracy at the time.....

Now you are into the good ol' Reich-Wing lying trick . . 

Every one of those countries had elected governments at the time. 

Every single one . . 

Allende govt. in Chile - elected; Sandinista govt. in Nica - elected; Arbenz govt in Guatemala - elected; Mossadegh govt. in Iran - elected 

There is really no excuse for you to not know about Iran, since the UK govt. was totally in on it. 

Some reading for you - "Bitter Fruit" by Kinzer; anything by Wm Blum, and there are many others. 

But you seem to prefer marinating in your own ignorance. 

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22 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Now you are into the good ol' Reich-Wing lying trick . . 

Oh the irony!  Typical left wing approach to rewriting history!  The last Reich was the ONLY one that WAS "elected"!

24 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Allende govt. in Chile - elected

The Allende government was overthrown by force and replaced by a military dictatorship led by Pinochet in 1973 so the 70's Government WASN'T "elected".

27 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Sandinista govt. in Nica - elected

The Sandinista Government in Nicaragua came to power through a revolution where they overthrew the then dictatorship by force in 1979.  Democratic elections (if you could call them that) didn't happen until 1984 when Daniel Ortega came to power and took over in 1985.

Guatemala in the 1950's was a military dictatorship AFTER Arbenz was overthrown.

Same in Iran.

Of course in true left style you don't mention the influence of the Soviet Union but are quick to criticise the USA and presumably the UK.

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The Allende government was overthrown by force and replaced by a military dictatorship led by Pinochet in 1973 so the 70's Government WASN'T "elected".

Of course the Allende government was elected; the US overthrew it using the Chilean military as a foil. 

The US-backed fascist coup took place on "the other 9/11" in 1973. 

All your other points are equally ludicrous. 

And as to your points below - well yes - the US overthrew democracies and installed vicious military dictatorships - a monarchy in Iran.  

5 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Guatemala in the 1950's was a military dictatorship AFTER Arbenz was overthrown. BY THE US 

Same in Iran.

 

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9 hours ago, dullers said:

It is not just the UK has never invades a democracy, no democracy has ever invaded another democracy or even declared war on each other. You have to take one step at a time with some people. 

Umm WWII? Hitler WAS voted in.

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Umm WWII? Hitler WAS voted in.

So what was the German Government in 1939? When it actually invaded someone?

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19 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Oh the irony!  Typical left wing approach to rewriting history!  The last Reich was the ONLY one that WAS "elected"!

The Allende government was overthrown by force and replaced by a military dictatorship led by Pinochet in 1973 so the 70's Government WASN'T "elected".

The Sandinista Government in Nicaragua came to power through a revolution where they overthrew the then dictatorship by force in 1979.  Democratic elections (if you could call them that) didn't happen until 1984 when Daniel Ortega came to power and took over in 1985.

Guatemala in the 1950's was a military dictatorship AFTER Arbenz was overthrown.

Same in Iran.

Of course in true left style you don't mention the influence of the Soviet Union but are quick to criticise the USA and presumably the UK.

You saved me answering

 

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6 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Ah good point. Indeed . Carry on.

At least you take it in good cheer.

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

Now you are into the good ol' Reich-Wing lying trick . . 

Every one of those countries had elected governments at the time. 

Every single one . . 

Allende govt. in Chile - elected; Sandinista govt. in Nica - elected; Arbenz govt in Guatemala - elected; Mossadegh govt. in Iran - elected 

There is really no excuse for you to not know about Iran, since the UK govt. was totally in on it. 

Some reading for you - "Bitter Fruit" by Kinzer; anything by Wm Blum, and there are many others. 

But you seem to prefer marinating in your own ignorance. 

You have just been owned by others. Accept it and move on.

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13 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Ah good point. Indeed . Carry on.

The real original post was posted and stated the UK had invaded democratic countries. I just refuted it. In fact no democracy has ever invaded another democracy. Both rusty and rh3billion are lose with history.

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1 minute ago, dullers said:

The real original post was posted and stated the UK had invaded democratic countries. I just refuted it. In fact no democracy has ever invaded another democracy. Both rusty and rh3billion are lose with history.

ooh, so watch their heads explode when you tell them what Nazi stood for.

Still gonna scratch my head about democracy invading democracy though. 

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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Meh, if you're wrong you're wrong. 

No point in having a whinge about it.

I would get less things wrong but i cant be bothered to keep going to google so take the risk of using the parts of my mind that are full of cobwebs.

 

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

And as to your points below - well yes - the US overthrew democracies and installed vicious military dictatorships - a monarchy in Iran.  

The USA didn't do that directly.  They didn't invade those democracies.  They were overturned from within.  Sure the USA provided some funding but there were other foreign powers funding the alternative.

As for installing a monarchy in Iran - like most Socialists your understanding of history is limited and revisionist.  Persia aka Iran was a Monarchy from 700BC to 1979AD i.e. nearly 2,700 years!  That is 2,450 years longer than the USA has even existed!

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8 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The USA didn't do that directly.  They didn't invade those democracies.  They were overturned from within.

The empire-expiring Brits needed US help to overthrow the Iranian democracy.  

The others the US did on its own. 

And we are not even into Brazil and Indonesia yet. 

I sorta think you are more ignorant than a liar - but likely some of both. 

Vets For Peace has many distinguished analysts and writers who could straighten you out if you 

ever decide to stop being willfully ignorant. 

I suggest you start with Chalmers Johnsons'  Blowback Trilogy   

Vets For Peace 

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12 hours ago, jaysper said:

Meh, if you're wrong you're wrong. 

No point in having a whinge about it.

I thought I was wrong once,

but I was mistaken. :D

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