Jump to content

About time ... no national anthem at sporting events


Recommended Posts

Mark Cuban has stopped the playing of the national anthems at Dallas Mavericks games ... and no one really noticed. I think this is a great idea and I hope it catches on everywhere. Here is the take from Doug Smith who is the Raptors beat reporter for the Toronto Star.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/opinion/2021/02/10/what-took-so-long-mark-cubans-decision-to-stop-playing-anthem-before-dallas-mavericks-games-was-long-overdue.html

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites

People as wealthy as Mark Cuban don't need to cling to an ideal of a country, they can live wherever they please.

But when regular folk are locked into a place, a reservoir of pride is for their home ... Brooklyn do or die, Los Angelese, West Side, don't mess with Texas, Rocky Mountain High, Money Manhattan, Wu Tang Staten Island, Indy, and Holla Pocatalla. We develop pride of place, it's a good thing.

Our national anthem was designed to bind us, all colors, all faiths, all ideals, all genders, all sexual orientations and genders. We are Americans. But somewhere along the line, the message of unity was co-opted by people who hate, and we let them get away with it.

Mark Cuban has made the wrong move. Instead of moving away from the National Anthem, or picking a different one (I vote for the new U.S. National Anthem to be the Mark Hornsby verson of Changes by Tupac Shakur) he allowed the co-opting haters to win. Mistake. We're Americans, that's supposed to bind us and give us some measure of pride, not shame.

  • Like 2
  • Downvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Our national anthem was designed to bind us, all colors, all faiths, all ideals, all genders, all sexual orientations and genders.

What a bunch of shit!  Bind all colors?  You fucking idiot, it was written when slavery was thriving and we were slaughtering Native Indians.  Did they play it before lynchings?

I give Cuban credit, it has no purpose at a sporting event.  Bind us?  Sheesh.  

You need to get laid.  

  • Like 13
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

What the fuck is wrong with the National Anthem before sorting events??

Nothing, It's just become a divisive thing so it's irrelevant.  You can thank the wackjobs on the right for that one.  Kapernick was only the tip of the ice burgh.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

What the fuck is wrong with the National Anthem before sorting events??

It’s stupid? I can see playing it at international sporting events and maybe when the Lightning play the Maple Leafs. Otherwise it’s a waste of time and hardly anyone pays attention to it.  Don’t get me started on glorification of the military at sporting events.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

What the fuck is wrong with the National Anthem before sorting events??

what the fuck is right with it? cheeezee!! 

Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

What the fuck is wrong with the National Anthem before sorting events??

Do I need to wave a flag 24/7 to be considered a patriot?  What purpose does that song serve other than letting me know from the beer concession that the game is about to start.  

Why are anthems not universally played before sporting events.  I got it, let's play every participants anthem before the next Olympic Marathon.  

I LOVE my country and I don't need to hear or sing a stupid fucking song to be reminded.  

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mikewof said:

People as wealthy as Mark Cuban don't need to cling to an ideal of a country, they can live wherever they please.

But when regular folk are locked into a place, a reservoir of pride is for their home ... Brooklyn do or die, Los Angelese, West Side, don't mess with Texas, Rocky Mountain High, Money Manhattan, Wu Tang Staten Island, Indy, and Holla Pocatalla. We develop pride of place, it's a good thing.

Our national anthem was designed to bind us, all colors, all faiths, all ideals, all genders, all sexual orientations and genders. We are Americans. But somewhere along the line, the message of unity was co-opted by people who hate, and we let them get away with it.

Mark Cuban has made the wrong move. Instead of moving away from the National Anthem, or picking a different one (I vote for the new U.S. National Anthem to be the Mark Hornsby verson of Changes by Tupac Shakur) he allowed the co-opting haters to win. Mistake. We're Americans, that's supposed to bind us and give us some measure of pride, not shame.

Gasbaggery. Please stop.

Link to post
Share on other sites

When strict participation in formal rituals of nationalism becomes mandatory and one cannot chose one's role or style of observance, then it becomes an oath of fealty & is unAmerican.

Cuban OWNS his team, so he should be able to decide, or at minimum have a role in the decision of whether or not to play the anthem before sporting events played before their games.

The history of playing the anthem before games is relevant to its role today, as is the role of the military requesting teams' participation. Times change, and we do too. Playing the anthem could've remained cool had whites not made strict rules of observance mandatory and inflexible for persons of color.

Basically, a few assholes screwed it up. Asked to take sides, I'll take Kapernick's.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

Basically, a few assholes screwed it up. Asked to take sides, I'll take Kapernick's.

This..

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. Francis S. Key was an aggressive defender of slavery - even for those times. 

And the third verse is racist . . 

Forcing people, esp minorities, to stand for it is deeply insulting and offensive. 

(I usually stand and turn my back - that way it's less likely that I will get hit from behind) 

Even the NFL now admits that Kaepernick was right.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Jazz Freak said:

Maybe before a final, or when the national team play 

Yes, Olympics, Super Bowl, championship games, but at the HS level is just stupid.  Kid played Varsity Lax, Hearing/standing etc. for the anthem over a shitty speaker in the middle of a giant complex with 20 fields or at a field in the middle of nowhere is just dumb.  Especially when the only people there are the coaches and players.  Happened all the time in the years I coached.  Just dumb.  

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I well remember around the time of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and the torture that went on subsequently . . 

The US Reich STILL fully expected EVERYONE to stand up and show respect for the lawless torture state . . 

Grrrrrrr !!! 

Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

Basically, a few assholes screwed it up. Asked to take sides, I'll take Kapernick's.

Kapernick didn't protest the National Anthem, he protested oppression of people of color. Our national anthem could have been the theme song to Get Smart and his protest would have likely been the same.

The opportunity here is to define how the national anthem can bring us together, even if we just pick a new song for our anthem. It doesn't need to even be anything official, as long as it conveys the desire to rise about the politics of the day and find common ground.

Anyway, it's kind of silly that we still use that old Star Spangled Banner as our anthem, it's getting pretty damned old. We could do with a new song ... here's a good one, should work for a couple decades at least ... the women might want an adjustment to the lyrics, but the words are easy to remember, nope, yup, nope, yup, nope, yup, nope, yup, nope, yup, nope, yup ...

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mikewof said:

even if we just pick a new song for our anthem.

(Sol, I'm throwing you a softball.)

I nominate Swing Low Sweet Chariot or The Camptown Races? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

What the fuck is wrong with the National Anthem before sorting events??

Agreed.  What better way to honor our country than to reserve it's anthem almost exclusively to fucking ball games.

Next up:  Hang a flag up in the bathroom and salute it whenever we take a shit. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Now the NBA is supposedly going to force him to play it.

As smart as Cuban is, he could have done this differently ... just played America The Beautiful instead of the Star Spangled Banner and nobody would have cared. It's easier to sing, everyone knows the words, and it's easy to substitute seditious lyrics as needed.

A lot of people consider America the Beautiful something of a national anthem anyway.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

What the fuck is wrong with the National Anthem before sorting events??

Don’t know, why don’t you sort it out?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I will add - it's almost unsingable for most people and every 'artist' has to put their own flair by making it more trilling than the last person to butcher it.  See Sunday's Super Bowl for the latest example.

edit: America the Beautiful would be more appropriate, or let's just have a contest for a new one.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, mikewof said:

People as wealthy as Mark Cuban don't need to cling to an ideal of a country, they can live wherever they please.

But when regular folk are locked into a place, a reservoir of pride is for their home ... Brooklyn do or die, Los Angelese, West Side, don't mess with Texas, Rocky Mountain High, Money Manhattan, Wu Tang Staten Island, Indy, and Holla Pocatalla. We develop pride of place, it's a good thing.

Our national anthem was designed to bind us, all colors, all faiths, all ideals, all genders, all sexual orientations and genders. We are Americans. But somewhere along the line, the message of unity was co-opted by people who hate, and we let them get away with it.

Mark Cuban has made the wrong move. Instead of moving away from the National Anthem, or picking a different one (I vote for the new U.S. National Anthem to be the Mark Hornsby verson of Changes by Tupac Shakur) he allowed the co-opting haters to win. Mistake. We're Americans, that's supposed to bind us and give us some measure of pride, not shame.

Our National anthem was never "designed". It was a poem written by a lawyer, and amateur poet/ prisoner during the 1812 war, that got set to some strange unsingable music written 50 years earlier, and mashed together sometime later, and adopted as the national anthem in the 1930s.

 The national anthem is a national disgrace. It would be far better to have a Woody Guthrie song as the national anthem, IMHOP.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/02/10/dallas-mavericks-national-anthem-cuban/

The Dallas Mavericks will resume playing the national anthem before games

 

“We respect and always have respected the passion people have for the anthem and our country," Cuban said in a statement. "I have always stood for the anthem with the hand over my heart — no matter where I hear it played. But we also hear the voices of those who do not feel the anthem represents them. We feel they also need to be respected and heard, because they have not been heard. The hope is that those who feel passionate about the anthem being played will be just as passionate in listening to those who do not feel it represents them.”

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, d'ranger said:

Let's just go ahead and add in the Pledge of Allegiance and the Lord's Prayer. 

Proof once again that few understand the difference between patriotism and nationalism. 

Veering into Jingoism sometimes.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, phillysailor said:

When strict participation in formal rituals of nationalism becomes mandatory and one cannot chose one's role or style of observance, then it becomes an oath of fealty & is unAmerican.

Cuban OWNS his team, so he should be able to decide, or at minimum have a role in the decision of whether or not to play the anthem before sporting events played before their games.

The history of playing the anthem before games is relevant to its role today, as is the role of the military requesting teams' participation. Times change, and we do too. Playing the anthem could've remained cool had whites not made strict rules of observance mandatory and inflexible for persons of color.

Basically, a few assholes screwed it up. Asked to take sides, I'll take Kapernick's.

Who said it had to be mandatory? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

  It would be far better to have a Woody Guthrie song as the national anthem, IMHOP.

More appropriately, Pete Seeger's 'Which side are you on?'

 

(Unknown Source) Every year Pete Seeger figured out how much money he would need to support his family for the coming year and he gave that dollar figure to Harold Leventhal, his manager, and asked him to book concerts that would earn him that much money. Pete filled up the rest of his year playing for free at benefits, fundraisers, schools, union halls, rallies and every other kind of movement gathering and venue he could play and he did that for as long as he could. That's the kind of guy he was and that's what side HE was on. A real stand-up guy who wouldn't name names, and was ready to go to prison for it. He was convicted of contempt of Congress for his refusal, but it was reversed on appeal. One of the best people ever and one of my heroes.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

"No refuge could save the hireling and slave

From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,

And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave

O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave."

 

During the War of 1812, Brits were offering freedom to slaves and indentured servants in America as part of an attempt to undermine US cohesion. This policy led to a race riot in Washington City just before Francis Scott Key wrote the poem.

Key was an avowed racist, writing that blacks were a "distinct and inferior race." He was a DA, and used his power to impose the death penalty on blacks, even when trials were obviously unfair. No less that Andrew Jackson pardoned a man Key sentenced to death. FS Key's support of Taney helped set the stage for the Dred Scott decision which said that blacks had no rights which the Whites man was bound to respect."

So there's rational arguments to be made against this song representing all of us equally.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, phillysailor said:

When strict participation in formal rituals of nationalism becomes mandatory and one cannot chose one's role or style of observance, then it becomes an oath of fealty & is unAmerican.

Cuban OWNS his team, so he should be able to decide, or at minimum have a role in the decision of whether or not to play the anthem before sporting events played before their games.

The history of playing the anthem before games is relevant to its role today, as is the role of the military requesting teams' participation. Times change, and we do too. Playing the anthem could've remained cool had whites not made strict rules of observance mandatory and inflexible for persons of color.

Basically, a few assholes screwed it up. Asked to take sides, I'll take Kapernick's.

Horseshit!  First of all MC can do whatever the hell he wants in his stadium. Although I’m betting the taxpayers paid a big chunk of it so it’s no really “his”. But I digress.....

Secondly i think the NFL was wrong to make it mandatory for players to stand.  But the NFL is a private employer and we often have to do things as a condition for employment that we might not always agree with.  Furthermore, my understanding was a majority of the customers of the NFL enterprise didn’t like it. And last I checked, if an employee is pissing off it’s customers, the employer has every right to ask the offending employee to toe the line or look for employment somewhere else where they can express themselves if they feel that strongly. 
 

I just hate that the NA has been politicized and it would be nice if it could go back to it being a symbol of pride in your nation rather than something to be ashamed of.  Especially now that the orange hued shitstain is gone, maybe we can get back to some semblance of normalcy and getting the fuck along as a country. I continue to maintain that the more shit is stirred up over traditions that have endured and are NOT symbols of racism - the deeper our division will run. Not everything has to be about goddamned race and social justice. It’s just a goddamned song and a tradition that had fuck all to do with slavery ans oppression. You can still be proud of your country despite it not being perfect and there being more work to do. 

We are literally tearing ourselves apart as a country over this shit.  This is why we can’t have nice things!!

Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Let's just go ahead and add in the Pledge of Allegiance and the Lord's Prayer. 

Proof once again that few understand the difference between patriotism and nationalism. 

As is Eva dent here in all the responses condemning the National Anthem. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Taking pride in and showing respect for the traditions of your country != Nationalism!!!!

A tradition since the '30's?  How can you believe a song has any importance?  It's like a child molester who goes to church.  Everyone can't believe he's guilty because he went to church.  

Simple question, do you believe the insurgents who stormed the Capitol on 6 January were nationalists.  Rumor is they sung the Star Spangled Banner before busting windows and cop's heads.  

It's just a stupid fucking song.  It does not represent me or my ideals or what should be this country's ideals.  

There is a very classic, very respected song by a respected group that I believe would make a great National Anthem. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Horseshit!  First of all MC can do whatever the hell he wants in his stadium. Although I’m betting the taxpayers paid a big chunk of it so it’s no really “his”. But I digress.....

 

Nah.  It's owned by the City of Dallas.  Several teams play there.  But the Mavs are his team and he should be able to do what he wants during games.  But then being a single franchise of a league has rules too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I should run a poll, who's more predictable, Jeff or Wofsey?  I could set my watch on either.  Jeff's aggressive, but Wofsey is tenacious and won't let go.  Of course, Wofsey has that PhD, but Jeff,  life experiences (he gets laid).  Only one possible solution, Thunderdome!

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

As is Eva dent here in all the responses condemning the National Anthem. 

You would be my top choice for someone who just doesn't get it.  Singing the NA makes one patriotic in the same way waving a Bible makes one a Christian. Or hugging and kissing the flag.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Our society is fucked. Let's play a song and everything will be fine.

 

The use of symbols and an idea of what we think we are should not replace reality.

The first step is admitting there's a problem.....

image.thumb.png.ab74e311b04648fa2db6489e40a68b11.png

-DSK

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

You would be my top choice for someone who just doesn't get it.  Singing the NA makes one patriotic in the same way waving a Bible makes one a Christian. Or hugging and kissing the flag.

OMG!!!  I never once said it "makes" someone patriotic.  Why don't you actually address something I've said rather than what you make up in your head??  JFC.  I said standing for the NA shows ones pride and respect for traditions and for the country.  You don't have to be a patriot or overly demonstrative of patriotism to show simple respect.  Unless of course you don't respect and have pride in this country.  If that's the case, then sit your ass down or take a knee when the music plays.  No one is making you do anything.

But you're missing a central fucking point of WHY the NA is played and why we all stand together.  Think of the words the announcers use when they are about to play the anthem.  Something to the effect of:  "Let's all stand together for the posting of the colors and the playing of the national anthem".  It has nothing to do with the fucking act of standing - it's about doing this all TOGETHER.  100K people all standing in unison paying respects to the flag and country and by doing so TOGETHER, the act is actually paying respect to EACH OTHER.  To your fellow Americans.  Do you people not fucking get this???  If you don't want to stand - then Let's all kneel together.  Or lay on the floor together.  I don't care.  But do it fucking *together*.  Show some unity.  Show that we don't have to hate each other all the fucking time!!!!  Two opposing teams are going to square off in "combat" and beat the shit out of each other and thousands of fans are going to scream at each other for the next 3 hours.  But we can take 2 min out to all stand together in unity to show at the beginning that once the contest is over and the screaming stops, that we are all still on the same team.  

THAT's THE POINT!  JFC!  

[/rant]

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

OMG!!!  I never once said it "makes" someone patriotic.   Just a whole lot of blah.

So does not singing the NA 'make' someone unpatriotic?

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

OMG!!!  I never once said it "makes" someone patriotic.  Why don't you actually address something I've said rather than what you make up in your head??  JFC.  I said standing for the NA shows ones pride and respect for traditions and for the country.  You don't have to be a patriot or overly demonstrative of patriotism to show simple respect.  Unless of course you don't respect and have pride in this country.  If that's the case, then sit your ass down or take a knee when the music plays.  No one is making you do anything.

But you're missing a central fucking point of WHY the NA is played and why we all stand together.  Think of the words the announcers use when they are about to play the anthem.  Something to the effect of:  "Let's all stand together for the posting of the colors and the playing of the national anthem".  It has nothing to do with the fucking act of standing - it's about doing this all TOGETHER.  100K people all standing in unison paying respects to the flag and country and by doing so TOGETHER, the act is actually paying respect to EACH OTHER.  To your fellow Americans.  Do you people not fucking get this???  If you don't want to stand - then Let's all kneel together.  Or lay on the floor together.  I don't care.  But do it fucking *together*.  Show some unity.  Show that we don't have to hate each other all the fucking time!!!!  Two opposing teams are going to square off in "combat" and beat the shit out of each other and thousands of fans are going to scream at each other for the next 3 hours.  But we can take 2 min out to all stand together in unity to show at the beginning that once the contest is over and the screaming stops, that we are all still on the same team.  

THAT's THE POINT!  JFC!  

[/rant]

That was the point until it got politicized.  It is now heavily politicalized (Which sucks IMHO, But that is another discussion) and one of the few billionaires that normally speaks his mind did something to keep politics away from his building.  Good in my book.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

But you're missing a central fucking point of WHY the NA is played and why we all stand together. 

For the same reason I kneeled in church, because it was expected of me.  Again, I love my country and saying a pledge or singing a song doesn't mean shit.

Do you ever have a valid point?

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

OMG!!!  I never once said it "makes" someone patriotic.  Why don't you actually address something I've said rather than what you make up in your head??  JFC.  I said standing for the NA shows ones pride and respect for traditions and for the country.  You don't have to be a patriot or overly demonstrative of patriotism to show simple respect.  Unless of course you don't respect and have pride in this country.  If that's the case, then sit your ass down or take a knee when the music plays.  No one is making you do anything.

But you're missing a central fucking point of WHY the NA is played and why we all stand together.  Think of the words the announcers use when they are about to play the anthem.  Something to the effect of:  "Let's all stand together for the posting of the colors and the playing of the national anthem".  It has nothing to do with the fucking act of standing - it's about doing this all TOGETHER.  100K people all standing in unison paying respects to the flag and country and by doing so TOGETHER, the act is actually paying respect to EACH OTHER.  To your fellow Americans.  Do you people not fucking get this???  If you don't want to stand - then Let's all kneel together.  Or lay on the floor together.  I don't care.  But do it fucking *together*.  Show some unity.  Show that we don't have to hate each other all the fucking time!!!!  Two opposing teams are going to square off in "combat" and beat the shit out of each other and thousands of fans are going to scream at each other for the next 3 hours.  But we can take 2 min out to all stand together in unity to show at the beginning that once the contest is over and the screaming stops, that we are all still on the same team.  

THAT's THE POINT!  JFC!  

[/rant]

One sentence squeezed into five hundred words.  You must be using Wofsey's compression algorithm.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

One sentence squeezed into five hundred words.  You must be using Wofsey's compression algorithm.

As always, reading my posts is completely voluntary.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I’ve got no issue with the SSB before the game. It’s a good indicator that it’s time to get my drink and get to my seat. I’m never actually in my seat for it.

now, what’s stupid is GBA during the 7th inning stretch post 9/11

Let me sing my little song, which reminds me to stop drinking.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

Our National anthem was never "designed". It was a poem written by a lawyer, and amateur poet/ prisoner during the 1812 war, that got set to some strange unsingable music written 50 years earlier, and mashed together sometime later, and adopted as the national anthem in the 1930s.

 The national anthem is a national disgrace. It would be far better to have a Woody Guthrie song as the national anthem, IMHOP.

All national anthems are designed, both because they're anthems, and because all forms of art contain elements of design, they don't write and score themselves, after all.

Woodie Guthrie ... this land is your land? Cripes, check the dials on your time machine, it's 2021. We should pick a new National Anthem every year, do it with an interenet poll or something. We can start with this one to get the folks on board ...

 

And then we can pull some excellent Mexican music, which is way more singable than those tired old Guthrie songs ...

 

That would put on track to have a Pac national anthem by 2023 ...

 

Regardless, this Star Spangled Banner is done, it's been around too long.

Link to post
Share on other sites

As Forest Gump would say; "Stupid is, as stupid does".:rolleyes:

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

As always, reading my posts is completely voluntary.

I volunteer with the American Red Cross.  Where do you volunteer!  Dropping bombs with no emotion is wrong.   I wish you were as harmless as the corner bum.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, phillysailor said:

"No refuge could save the hireling and slave

From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,

And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave

O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave."

 

During the War of 1812, Brits were offering freedom to slaves and indentured servants in America as part of an attempt to undermine US cohesion. This policy led to a race riot in Washington City just before Francis Scott Key wrote the poem.

Key was an avowed racist, writing that blacks were a "distinct and inferior race." He was a DA, and used his power to impose the death penalty on blacks, even when trials were obviously unfair. No less that Andrew Jackson pardoned a man Key sentenced to death. FS Key's support of Taney helped set the stage for the Dred Scott decision which said that blacks had no rights which the Whites man was bound to respect."

So there's rational arguments to be made against this song representing all of us equally.

Jeff, could you please respond to this post as an American trying to put themselves in the shoes of a black man? Or in the shoes of a white man trying to tell a black man how to feel patriotic during the singing of this song by this poet?

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Think of the words the announcers use when they are about to play the anthem.  Something to the effect of:  "Let's all stand together for the posting of the colors and the playing of the national anthem".  It has nothing to do with the fucking act of standing - it's about doing this all TOGETHER.

You do understand these guys are all actors, right?

They are following a script, maybe from memory. It is CAREFULLY DESIGNED to make people like you think like this.

This is why so many people think you are a gullible fucknuckle. Because you just loooove this shit.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Battlecheese said:

You do understand these guys are all actors, right?

They are following a script, maybe from memory. It is CAREFULLY DESIGNED to make people like you think like this.

This is why so many people think you are a gullible fucknuckle. Because you just loooove this shit.

He fucking killed for it. While wearing a fucking scarf!

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, phillysailor said:

Jeff, could you please respond to this post as an American trying to put themselves in the shoes of a black man? Or in the shoes of a white man trying to tell a black man how to feel patriotic during the singing of this song by this poet?

I can pretty much predict that Jeffbo will not do this . . @Burning Man

He actually thinks that he is a Sheep Dog guarding the rest of us .  . 

Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Zonker said:

I'm still trying to understand why the US Air Force does flyovers before big football games.... 

Same reason they did flyover shit for Frontline health care workers.  They need their hours in the air so might as well chip in for bread and circuses

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Burning Man said:

What the fuck is wrong with the National Anthem before sorting events??

I took an English co-worker of my wife’s to a baseball game. We went to get a couple of beers before the first pitch, only to be informed that “we do not serve beer during the playing of the National Anthem sir”... so that’s one thing wrong with playing it before sporting events. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The one I don't get is a "Pledge of allegiance".  Ok, I happened to be born here randomly and now I have to pledge my allegiance to something I had nothing to do with?  Not very libertarian or self governing.  Fuck that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Frank White said:

I took an English co-worker of my wife’s to a baseball game. We went to get a couple of beers before the first pitch, only to be informed that “we do not serve beer during the playing of the National Anthem sir”... so that’s one thing wrong with playing it before sporting events. 

That’s wrong. Really wrong. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

As long as I am bitching and twitching Jeffie - who actually sings it? Most people can't so they stand dutifully with hand over heart (hopefully) and just wait for it to end.

I have a music degree, spent much of my life making a living in the business. To me, an anthem should be something the average person can and wants to sing along - I mean has anyone ever heard this at a ballgame?

Now when done properly our anthem does make me tear up but that almost never happens - especially when someone famous trots out and does their best to make it original and what ever the fuck they think is awesome.  So, play it like this or just fugettaboutit.

There are actually countries where everyone sings it, like Canada, UK, France of course - see above, Germany and Russia.  It really helps when it is able to be sung by people.  We of course get the octave and a half of an English drinking song.  sigh, we could do better.

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Burning Man said:

OMG!!!  I never once said it "makes" someone patriotic.  Why don't you actually address something I've said rather than what you make up in your head??  JFC.  I said standing for the NA shows ones pride and respect for traditions and for the country.  You don't have to be a patriot or overly demonstrative of patriotism to show simple respect.  Unless of course you don't respect and have pride in this country.  If that's the case, then sit your ass down or take a knee when the music plays.  No one is making you do anything.

But you're missing a central fucking point of WHY the NA is played and why we all stand together.  Think of the words the announcers use when they are about to play the anthem.  Something to the effect of:  "Let's all stand together for the posting of the colors and the playing of the national anthem".  It has nothing to do with the fucking act of standing - it's about doing this all TOGETHER.  100K people all standing in unison paying respects to the flag and country and by doing so TOGETHER, the act is actually paying respect to EACH OTHER.  To your fellow Americans.  Do you people not fucking get this???  If you don't want to stand - then Let's all kneel together.  Or lay on the floor together.  I don't care.  But do it fucking *together*.  Show some unity.  Show that we don't have to hate each other all the fucking time!!!!  Two opposing teams are going to square off in "combat" and beat the shit out of each other and thousands of fans are going to scream at each other for the next 3 hours.  But we can take 2 min out to all stand together in unity to show at the beginning that once the contest is over and the screaming stops, that we are all still on the same team.  

THAT's THE POINT!  JFC!  

[/rant]

So what say you about the Chicago Blackhawks??  Crazy moving when 17k are standing and screaming throughout.  One of the most moving things I have ever been a part of.  Is that patriotic??  They do it every night, so if you are not in the know, you think they are being disrespectful, There are articles on it.  

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Zonker said:

I'm still trying to understand why the US Air Force does flyovers before big football games.... 

Because we can. 

Also, because it's cool!  A 4-ship of F-15 Eagles or F-22 Raptors in tight formation hitting dead center of the 50 yard line at 400 knots just as the last note of the national anthem is finished is not child's play.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Clove Hitch said:

Same reason they did flyover shit for Frontline health care workers.  They need their hours in the air so might as well chip in for bread and circuses

That too.  It's actually valuable training.

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, phillysailor said:

Jeff, could you please respond to this post as an American trying to put themselves in the shoes of a black man? Or in the shoes of a white man trying to tell a black man how to feel patriotic during the singing of this song by this poet?

I never once said I was trying to put myself into the shoes of a black man nor have I ever told anyone of any color "how" to feel patriotic.  I said standing for the national anthem was a sign of respect for your country and of unity with your fellow citizens.  However, If you have neither of those feelings for your country, then feel free to sit your ass down, take a knee, or whatever.  

No anthem is perfect.  I'm sure there are a lot of anti-royalists in the UK that don't like "God Save the Queen".  But it is what it is.  Taking the US Nat Anthem to task because the writer was a racist is simply shooting the messenger and missing the message.  The poem/song wasn't about slavery.  It was about enduring, persevering and ultimately surviving a great test and coming out stronger for having endured it.  I think those are qualities that are perfect for a national anthem.  At least better than one about some old broad living in a castle because of her birthright.   But if we are going to hold all things accountable because of the beliefs of the author..... and apply current 21st Century thought and morals to people who lived 200 years ago, then we might as well rip up the fucking US Constitution.  Because those old racist fucks who wrote it were avowed slavers.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I never once said I was trying to put myself into the shoes of a black man nor have I ever told anyone of any color "how" to feel patriotic.  I said standing for the national anthem was a sign of respect for your country and of unity with your fellow citizens.  However, If you have neither of those feelings for your country, then feel free to sit your ass down, take a knee, or whatever.  

No anthem is perfect.  I'm sure there are a lot of anti-royalists in the UK that don't like "God Save the Queen".  But it is what it is.  Taking the US Nat Anthem to task because the writer was a racist is simply shooting the messenger and missing the message.  The poem/song wasn't about slavery.  It was about enduring, persevering and ultimately surviving a great test and coming out stronger for having endured it.  I think those are qualities that are perfect for a national anthem.  At least better than one about some old broad living in a castle because of her birthright.   But if we are going to hold all things accountable because of the beliefs of the author..... and apply current 21st Century thought and morals to people who lived 200 years ago, then we might as well rip up the fucking US Constitution.  Because those old racist fucks who wrote it were avowed slavers.  

Actually about a quarter of the Framers were abolitionists. Half of the rest of the Framers despised them and probably would have liked to shoot them as much as to sign a co-written document. But it was the best way forward at the time.

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

It's actually valuable training.

Tight formation flying practice for bombing stadiums? Wouldn't it be smarter to go visit a range and practice dogfighting and do your time on target stuff out there?

Honestly I think it's just a part of US culture that outsiders don't understand. The "rah rah" toward the military etc

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Actually about a quarter of the Framers were abolitionists. Half of the rest of the Framers despised them and probably would have liked to shoot them as much as to sign a co-written document. But it was the best way forward at the time.

- DSK

That ^^ Supports my point entirely.  If 3/4 of the framers were avowed slavers and racists - then why should the US Constitution have any weight in our society?  In fact, why should the entire framework of our gov't not be completely disbanded right now, this very moment, because it was imagined and set up by a group of elitist, old, rich, white racists???  Honest question...... I'd really like an answer to that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Tight formation flying practice for bombing stadiums? Wouldn't it be smarter to go visit a range and practice dogfighting and do your time on target stuff out there?

Honestly I think it's just a part of US culture that outsiders don't understand. The "rah rah" toward the military etc

There is a lot more to bombing something than just dropping bombs.  Precise timing, teamwork, logistics, coordination with other agencies, flying in unfamiliar area under unfamiliar rules, rehearsals, and much much more go into getting a bomb on target on time.  And the pressure of having to put it all together when the pressure is on and hit that timing mark to the literal second within feet of a point takes no small amount of skill and practice.  Is it a replacement for actual combat training?  Of course not..... but the concepts and the skills in that flyby translate directly and vice versa.  

Besides, it's a bit more impressive that some Army schlep driving a HUMVEE onto the field and honking the horn.....  :ph34r:

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Burning Man said:
38 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Actually about a quarter of the Framers were abolitionists. Half of the rest of the Framers despised them and probably would have liked to shoot them as much as to sign a co-written document. But it was the best way forward at the time.

 

That ^^ Supports my point entirely.  If 3/4 of the framers were avowed slavers and racists - then why should the US Constitution have any weight in our society?  In fact, why should the entire framework of our gov't not be completely disbanded right now, this very moment, because it was imagined and set up by a group of elitist, old, rich, white racists???  Honest question...... I'd really like an answer to that.

Well, it genuinely looks to me like the best option going forward for us to have a (relatively) orderly and prosperous society. Suggestions for forming a more perfect union welcome.

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Well, it genuinely looks to me like the best option going forward for us to have a (relatively) orderly and prosperous society. Suggestions for forming a more perfect union welcome.

- DSK

So you're saying that the oath you took as a Semen in the Navy to "Protect and Defend the Constitution" was just a bunch of BS?  It's just a "goddamned piece of paper"?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

So you're saying that the oath you took as a Semen in the Navy to "Protect and Defend the Constitution" was just a bunch of BS?  It's just a "goddamned piece of paper"?

Mine was not a lifetime oath, you oaf

And an E-1 in the Navy is a Semen Recruit. Who's your daddy?

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

There is a lot more to bombing something than just dropping bombs.  Precise timing, teamwork, logistics, coordination with other agencies, flying in unfamiliar area under unfamiliar rules, rehearsals, and much much more go into getting a bomb on target on time.  And the pressure of having to put it all together when the pressure is on and hit that timing mark to the literal second within feet of a point takes no small amount of skill and practice.  Is it a replacement for actual combat training?  Of course not..... but the concepts and the skills in that flyby translate directly and vice versa.  

Besides, it's a bit more impressive that some Army schlep driving a HUMVEE onto the field and honking the horn.....  :ph34r:

But for how much longer? Other than getting the birds in the air, and then deciding which wedding party needs a Hellfire missile and while innocents standing next to which mid-level terrorists are worthy targets to kill by remote control from some semi-wide in Nevada, how much are humans even in the loop at this point?

And the next time we see leap in battery technologies, or fuel cells or nanoscale motors, then will these pilots even be needed at all, when the attack aircraft are the size of a mosquito and there is a swarm of a few thousand of them that target the people in the wedding party based on facial metrics?

Unless we're willing to transition from blood wars to economic wars, as the Chinese are already doing, the future of warfare is going to place computers as the button-men.

Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Tight formation flying practice for bombing stadiums? Wouldn't it be smarter to go visit a range and practice dogfighting and do your time on target stuff out there?

Honestly I think it's just a part of US culture that outsiders don't understand. The "rah rah" toward the military etc

Mostly likely.. I'm pretty sure that they pay for these flyovers with public outreach funds, rather than training funds.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Mostly likely.. I'm pretty sure that they pay for these flyovers with public outreach funds, rather than training funds.

Anytime mikey says "I'm pretty sure...." you can pretty much bet the exact opposite is true.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

Because we can. 

Also, because it's cool!  A 4-ship of F-15 Eagles or F-22 Raptors in tight formation hitting dead center of the 50 yard line at 400 knots just as the last note of the national anthem is finished is not child's play.  

Doesn't that endanger the spectators? I hope they aren't carrying too much fuel when they hit.

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Anytime mikey says "I'm pretty sure...." you can pretty much bet the exact opposite is true.  

Do tell then, how do they pay for them?

You made the "bet", do they pay for them with training funds like you claim with the "concepts and the skills in that flyby translate directly and vice versa"? Or are you full of shit?

 

It's apparently done for recruiting and publicity and presumably paid for out of that line item ... https://www.thoughtco.com/cost-super-bowl-flyovers-for-taxpayers-3368334

Why the Military Performs Flyovers

The Department of Defense says the Air Force flyovers are a form of public relations and are conducted at “events of national prominence.”

"It's not an exorbitant cost, and I would, you know, obviously remind you that we stand to gain the benefit," Kirby said. "And there's an exposure benefit from having the U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds fly over, a well-known, famous team, and that certainly helps us in terms of keeping our exposure out there for the American people."

"For the publicity aspect of it, I'd say it's definitely well worth it when you consider the cost to advertise during the Super Bowl.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

That too.  It's actually valuable training.

and a fucking shit load of pollution, innit...

'git the oil'

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

I never once said I was trying to put myself into the shoes of a black man nor have I ever told anyone of any color "how" to feel patriotic.  I said standing for the national anthem was a sign of respect for your country and of unity with your fellow citizens.  However, If you have neither of those feelings for your country, then feel free to sit your ass down, take a knee, or whatever.  

No anthem is perfect.  I'm sure there are a lot of anti-royalists in the UK that don't like "God Save the Queen".  But it is what it is.  Taking the US Nat Anthem to task because the writer was a racist is simply shooting the messenger and missing the message.  The poem/song wasn't about slavery.  It was about enduring, persevering and ultimately surviving a great test and coming out stronger for having endured it.  I think those are qualities that are perfect for a national anthem.  At least better than one about some old broad living in a castle because of her birthright.   But if we are going to hold all things accountable because of the beliefs of the author..... and apply current 21st Century thought and morals to people who lived 200 years ago, then we might as well rip up the fucking US Constitution.  Because those old racist fucks who wrote it were avowed slavers.  

You missed my point _completely_
 

I was asking you to say how you would state your love for the national anthem _if_ you were a black man, given the racism of the Francis Scott Key, and the very words of the poem he wrote.

Youre very good at representing the white male Air Force pilot perspective; I was asking you to take a walk in a minority set of shoes and report back.

My point was that your vision of unity and commonality breaks down when you realize that other people in your country interpret our history and it’s art, poems and songs in vastly different ways. They may indeed see your desire for “unity” as your telling the to STFU and accept America as it is, not as the more perfect Union they want. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Burning Man said:

That ^^ Supports my point entirely.  If 3/4 of the framers were avowed slavers and racists - then why should the US Constitution have any weight in our society?  In fact, why should the entire framework of our gov't not be completely disbanded right now, this very moment, because it was imagined and set up by a group of elitist, old, rich, white racists???  Honest question...... I'd really like an answer to that.

Constitutions need to reflect the societies they serve and societies change dramatically over time - so should their constitutions. The Canadian Constitution was passed in 1982 so is fairly recent and reflective of contemporary society. As the years pass changes in it will be needed. The US Constitution has a mechanism for change but amendments have been rare in the past and seemingly impossible in today's society. It needs changes to reflect the society that exists today and for the years to come. It might not be a bad idea to have a Constitutional Convention now and one every twenty years or so. The CC might get together for a few beers and decide no changes are needed, but I suspect there would be considerable pressure to bring in any number of amendments.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You are describing the use govt to a t...  lol. We screwed.  Calgary is our sister city..  much sailing?  I have a santana 20.  222 a good rating around there?  Or do I gotta buy a shark...   I got 2.  So maybe i start a fleet somewhere..  also, whats the rule on xpats up there?  Healthcare if u get there past 50?  Hockey fan and I know your anthem...  

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Constitutions need to reflect the societies they serve and societies change dramatically over time - so should their constitutions. The Canadian Constitution was passed in 1982 so is fairly recent and reflective of contemporary society. As the years pass changes in it will be needed. The US Constitution has a mechanism for change but amendments have been rare in the past and seemingly impossible in today's society. It needs changes to reflect the society that exists today and for the years to come. It might not be a bad idea to have a Constitutional Convention now and one every twenty years or so. The CC might get together for a few beers and decide no changes are needed, but I suspect there would be considerable pressure to bring in any number of amendments.

Specifically, what is in The Constitution that you think needs to change?

I'll start the ball rolling if you like ... we need to remove the criminality clause from the Thirteenth Amendment.

But other than that ... most of what we need to do can be done (like doing right by Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Saipan et al.) from within the confines of our current Constitution, because it has been designed pretty bare-bones to begin with.

Link to post
Share on other sites