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Is this a proper rudder?


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I was interested in knowing if the example in this pic can be considered a proper rudder... (from a boat in my club)

Waiting for the comments of the fellow anarchists...

20210209_144310.jpg

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proper for something, but probably not THAT boat ...... 

 

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Sure. If it works, and suits the sailor's needs, and keeps him/her where he/she wants to be in relation to the north star, yeah, it's a rudder.

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Before becoming a sailing bozo I was an EAA aircraft nut. One big plus of the aircraft hobby is these fuckwits are culled before they go internet famous with dumbass crap like this rudder. The sailing world is stuck mingling with these crackpots, and rescuing them, until the boat is dumpstered. 

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2 hours ago, See Level said:

Looks like he had a need for a kickup rutter.

Does the boat have a swing, lifting keel?

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Seems to be from another boat and temporarily hung under this one. The shape resembles rutters on Dutch barges or other North Sea centreboard / sideboard boats. Crude, but good  for shallow draft. You can see the (disabled) lifting mechanism in the picture. 

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I've seen that done somewhere else, on a traditional boat, but built out of wood.. Only used lifted when nosing up a very shallow creek to a mooring. The traditional craft had lee boards,,

That version doesn't look that well built..

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You lot need to stop and think.

When he goes up a lee shore because his rutter doesn't work he'll be able to lift it so it doesn't get damaged.

Clever ehhh? Now who's smug? Chap in the lee shore I guess. None of us here could be smug if we were on a lee shore, so he's the winner.

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I had a rudder like this on a smaller boat that someone had 'installed'.  As the speed of the boat increased, the rudder would kick back further and further making it nearly impossible to steer.

Not to mention what happened when we went through a thick patch of weeds.

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2 hours ago, Grrr... said:

 

Not to mention what happened when we went through a thick patch of weeds.

Yea I hear ya, we went through a thick patch of weed last night.

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8 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

I say emergency rudder.

you are missing the purple font, right mate? how in the actual fuck would one install this in an emergency?..... its shitty  enough out for the proper rudder to fail... you crawl in the lazerette and un hook the quadrant from the remaining rudder shaft....drop the shaft out the bottom of the boat, hopefully its not to bent.... someone jumps in the water with this heavy chunk of alloy, while tethered to the boat, and attempts to put the shaft in the rudder tube..... they get it in as the boat is pounding up and down on each wave and hold it there while you reattach the quadrant and cables. job done, easy peasy.

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15 hours ago, Trovão said:

I was interested in knowing if the example in this pic can be considered a proper rudder... (from a boat in my club)

Waiting for the comments of the fellow anarchists...

20210209_144310.jpg

Looks like it might be a custom job 

dual purpose 

steering control when sailing and log splitting when on the hard for the winter 

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It would be interesting to see how it works when "up". If it's designed to still be functional in the up position, the pennant would need to pivot with the rudder to keep it at a set depth and allow the rudder to turn.  If it's only supposed to be "straight ahead" when up, maybe it's just for beaching

 

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It's a kick up rudder.

You can even see the little shackle where the line attaches.

If not this, then what? The rest of the bottom seems to be in good shape but don't let the opportunity for ridicule pass you by.

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12 hours ago, 10thTonner said:

Seems to be from another boat and temporarily hung under this one. The shape resembles rutters on Dutch barges or other North Sea centreboard / sideboard boats. Crude, but good  for shallow draft. You can see the (disabled) lifting mechanism in the picture. 

Looks like it came from a homebuilt MOBO.

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18 hours ago, ROADKILL666 said:

WTF. Is that a temporary ?

uhmmm, no...

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18 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I would say, certainly so

Is it intended to be temporary? Dunno, you'll have to ask the owner.......

FB- Doug

not afaik...

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16 hours ago, VWAP said:

Does the boat have a swing, lifting keel?

Yes, of similar, aham, "design"...

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15 hours ago, 10thTonner said:

Seems to be from another boat and temporarily hung under this one. The shape resembles rutters on Dutch barges or other North Sea centreboard / sideboard boats. Crude, but good  for shallow draft. You can see the (disabled) lifting mechanism in the picture. 

No

14 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

I say emergency rudder.

No

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5 hours ago, basketcase said:

you are missing the purple font, right mate? how in the actual fuck would one install this in an emergency?..... its shitty  enough out for the proper rudder to fail... you crawl in the lazerette and un hook the quadrant from the remaining rudder shaft....drop the shaft out the bottom of the boat, hopefully its not to bent.... someone jumps in the water with this heavy chunk of alloy, while tethered to the boat, and attempts to put the shaft in the rudder tube..... they get it in as the boat is pounding up and down on each wave and hold it there while you reattach the quadrant and cables. job done, easy peasy.

ditto...

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4 hours ago, Benytoe said:

What club? where do you sail where you have to worry about your rudder like that? 

here are the coordinates -30.110442, -51.261258

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4 hours ago, Crump's Brother said:

Why you spell rutter with double d's?

Ooops, my bad. English is not my 1st language. I sencerely apologize...

2 hours ago, Borax Johnson said:

Looks like a proper rutter to me. Likely designed by a navel architect for sure.

'xactly

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19 hours ago, basketcase said:

wow

exactly what came out of my mouth looking at the image of that rudders, and what's with the shackle on top

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7 hours ago, KC375 said:

exactly what came out of my mouth looking at the image of that rudders, and what's with the shackle on top

That shackle is for a line to lift up the rudder when entering very shallow lack of water. Giving the effect of this thames barges rudder image.thumb.png.6438f7b35a5d6a605a2d26580cecd3dd.png

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7 hours ago, The Q said:

That shackle is for a line to lift up the rudder when entering very shallow lack of water. Giving the effect of this thames barges rudder image.thumb.png.6438f7b35a5d6a605a2d26580cecd3dd.png

If you look at many of the late Thames barges you'll see that the mizzen actually sheets off the back of the rudder blade.

We've discussed the positive and negative impact of the mizzen at length, but in that case it was actually trying to take some of the weather helm load off the steering. For relevance I add that here because the load on that rudder in post one is going to be a bastard.

image.thumb.png.8552a43f63b2dfd054d863e48d961be2.png

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I wasn't referring to the Thames barge Mizzen and shackling it to the rudder.,

But when that boat at the top of the thread lifts it's rudder using  the shackle , You end up with a rudder which is long horizontally  similar to that on the Thames barge in the picture..

It will  give you a lot of load  on  the tiller  in the same way as a Thames barge without the mizzen.

Structurally that rudder at the top of the thread looks very badly designed 

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shouldn't the vertical weld have been located fore of center to produce a proper foil shape for lift ?

why hasn't anyone asked what the boat rates yet ?

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1 hour ago, rmdanko said:

shouldn't the vertical weld have been located fore of center to produce a proper foil shape for lift ?

why hasn't anyone asked what the boat rates yet ?

I had a sort of similar arrangement on my 1984 wombat shape moth skiff.    Long rudder, held down by adjustable heavy shock cord, rudder pintle  12 inches back from stern,  on an out rigger frame.

In deep water you could angle the bottom of the rudder slightly forward,  which gave neutral helm in heavy weather. 

Best of all I was sailing in an inlet with lots of sandbars, variously exposed during tides.

When the sailing club ran a long distance race,  it was my not so secret weapon.  Pull the center board, let the rudder out,  and just go straight across a bar with only 6 inches of water.  Why go the long way when you can take a short cut. 

The unpleasant side of this method was then sailing through heavy patches of jellyfish,  which congregated around the sand bars.

Feeling thud, thud, thud as the bow or rudder his the top of man o war style jellyfish and just hoping  you won't go over in the middle of the water rats kept one on one's toes,  even with a wetsuit.

 

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as someone up-thread asked about the centerboard, here it goes.

it comes from the same "design school" as the rutter...

20210212_162731.jpg

20210212_162743.jpg

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I am guessing that it is a temporary "rutter" but as someone else stated it was not installed on the water. Maybe the owner thought he could survive a while with it and found out how interesting it was to steer with. I wouldn't want to steer it.

Someone in my neck of the woods (a Catalina 30 I believe) ended the season with a piece of osb screwed to the remnants of the rudder. Hey, it got him home!

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21 hours ago, mal5033 said:

I am guessing that it is a temporary "rutter" but as someone else stated it was not installed on the water. Maybe the owner thought he could survive a while with it and found out how interesting it was to steer with. I wouldn't want to steer it.

Someone in my neck of the woods (a Catalina 30 I believe) ended the season with a piece of osb screwed to the remnants of the rudder. Hey, it got him home!

i really don't think so. seems pretty "definitive" for me...

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On 2/14/2021 at 5:27 PM, Trovão said:

as someone up-thread asked about the centerboard, here it goes.

it comes from the same "design school" as the rutter...

20210212_162731.jpg

20210212_162743.jpg

 

Good Lord !!!

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this one looks something better than the first. what do you think?

20210224_100425.jpg

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15 minutes ago, Trovão said:

this one looks something better than the first. what do you think?

20210224_100425.jpg

Looks better in some respects. Rudder post is bigger diameter, although the ratio of diameter to rudder area might not be any better than the first example. Why not design it with a little balance area? And yeah, stainless steel nut, good idea... except for the added drag...

The problem with kick-up rudders is the leverage of the rudder blade when kicked up... it's tremendous. And lots of times, the hold-down mechanism is not designed to hold it down when the boat gets going fast.... and suddenly being unable to steer when the boat is going fast, bad things happen. But since I sail in shallow water a lot, I have a great appreciation for being able to pull foils up.

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Can't balance that rudder without moving the rudderpost aft.

Well, yeah. That's one of those "plan ahead" things

 

5 hours ago, sailman said:

Is no one going to mention the bow pulpit repurposed at a prop guard?:ph34r:

I thought we weren't going to mention that. But I'm glad you did, not me... I've been rude enough, already on thin ice

FB- Doug

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Well, yeah. That's one of those "plan ahead" things

 

I thought we weren't going to mention that. But I'm glad you did, not me... I've been rude enough, already on thin ice

FB- Doug

The ice was 8" thick Monday morning. Not any longer.

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18 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

The problem with kick-up rudders is the leverage of the rudder blade when kicked up... it's tremendous. And lots of times, the hold-down mechanism is not designed to hold it down when the boat gets going fast.... and suddenly being unable to steer when the boat is going fast, bad things happen. But since I sail in shallow water a lot, I have a great appreciation for being able to pull foils up.

FB- Doug

Hehe, reminds me of the time me and me buddy were goofing around in an incredibly old Tornado cat. Above a certain speed, the worn-out kick up mechanism would suddenly release one or both rutters, and it felt like it tore out my arm. Good times. :) 

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