Jump to content

Transat Jacques Vabre 2021


Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, Roleur said:

With Sam gaining on both of them!

Someone please get Sam a decent boat.  Here she is battling it out at the pointy end of a 22 boat fleet in a 100 year old boat against the absolute latest and greatest.  That is some serious talent.  Definitely not luck either as she has ebbed and flowed compared to the others, but currently the 2nd fastest of the leading 5 and right behind Apivia who was 35+nm ahead yesterday.  

The incredible story of Initiatives-Cœur, written alongside Sam Davies since 2017, will continue until 2025, in particular with their participation in the Vendée Globe 2024. Sam will also be able to take to the helm in a new boat, built using the same mould as L’Occitane en Provence to the plans drawn by the architect Sam Manuard, which is scheduled to launch in May 2022. The new boat, built to a higher spec than the current Initiatives-Cœur, will enable Sam to stay competitive within the rapidly progressing IMOCA fleet and fly the flag for the charitable cause championed by Initiatives-Cœur.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 570
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

something like this, perhaps?

The big picture from above with NOAA overlay and Avation Weather sat image infrared. HPs all around, except the Med with a storm moving west. That orange line across Spain is a through over the G

This has been discussed widely in Other Imoca forums and particularly in French arenas. To understand why there is a One Design mast requires an understanding of class history and what brought ab

Posted Images

Gosh... the IMOCA battle is fascinating. Looks like LinkedOut has squandered some of the advantage he had this morning by choosing to go west of the exclusion zone; from the tracker looks like he will be in lighter airs south of the island (unless he can sneak across to the slightly stronger floe SW). And Charal is winning the neck and neck with Apivia...  I still think something must have happened, because Apivia's speed advantage shown earlier (& in the Fastnet) seems to have disappeared. Maybe its just flukey wind... the speeds are changing quite a bit at each update.  But I guess its early days....    

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, don't laugh,
Between all the french and sometimes english boats the is one boat totally dutch:
635347548_SecHayaiFransBudel.jpg.5da53efc593555a86e4d6c154084564f.jpg
Open forty Sec Hayai currently 29th position in a field of 45.
She is sailed by Frans Budel and IJsbrandt Endt.
1533449784_FransBudelIJsbrandtEndt.jpg.8a9d9a883cdbb724693774468ba1873b.jpg
Nice guys.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, staysail said:

You are free to design the structure and mechanical strength of your foil so no one to blame but yourself if it breaks. Not free to design a stronger mast? How can that make any sense at all in an "open" class?

 

5 hours ago, loneshark64 said:

Absolutely, I respect the other posters responses, but this mast rule has to looked at. I can’t believe that Wendy Schmidt and her $13 billion dollars funded 2 campaigns, spent big on PR, and then cheaped out on a worn out rig. Two down in the first days is not an acceptable failure rate. Limiting the foils by committee seems like a recipe for unintended consequences. Why not let designers engineer a whole boat?

You are free to design the foils so you don't break the mast. The sailors have chosen to design foils which generate righting moment such that they can power the rig beyond its known breaking tolerances. This is why the one design mast and keel was introduced in the first place, because the sailors and engineers were designing boats that failed. I'd argue perhaps the one design mast could become a "minimum" spec, with a strict testing regime instead, but its not that much different from other parts of the rule, which after all restricts plenty of things and only recently allowed foils at all, and now has restricted them further again.

With regards to the 11th hour spend, they have had an iterative approach between the boats, with designing several foils and swapping them, and the second boat (which dismasted) is I believe destined to be sold after this race, why put a new rig in a boat you're selling off?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, loneshark64 said:

Maybe so it doesn’t break and you can sell it off? ;)

You have a lot of good info though, thanks. 

The boat is sold and the new owner will I'm sure be very happy he is not only getting it early but also with a new rig in place ;) a good deal was made even better... 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Schakel said:

Okay, don't laugh,
Between all the french and sometimes english boats the is one boat totally dutch:
635347548_SecHayaiFransBudel.jpg.5da53efc593555a86e4d6c154084564f.jpg
Open forty Sec Hayai currently 29th position in a field of 45.
She is sailed by Frans Budel and IJsbrandt Endt.
1533449784_FransBudelIJsbrandtEndt.jpg.8a9d9a883cdbb724693774468ba1873b.jpg
Nice guys.

Impossible :-)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Schakel said:

Okay, don't laugh,
Between all the french and sometimes english boats the is one boat totally dutch:
635347548_SecHayaiFransBudel.jpg.5da53efc593555a86e4d6c154084564f.jpg
Open forty Sec Hayai currently 29th position in a field of 45.
She is sailed by Frans Budel and IJsbrandt Endt.
1533449784_FransBudelIJsbrandtEndt.jpg.8a9d9a883cdbb724693774468ba1873b.jpg
Nice guys.

Mes amis néerlandais ont l'avantage car leur pays est la pratique sous-marine de la voile et de la natation assez facile.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/12/2021 at 8:15 AM, staysail said:

Happy to see Initiatives hanging in there with the latest rocket ships. Guess one only has to compare past tracks to see how they have managed it.

She still seems to be doing her thing. 9 pm French time. Look at her track and the 3 in front.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Jean-Baptiste said:

Mes amis néerlandais ont l'avantage car leur pays est la pratique sous-marine de la voile et de la natation assez facile.

Merci. C’est la première fois que les Néerlandais participent je crois.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Herman said:

Merci. C’est la première fois que les Néerlandais participent je crois.

They are doing well and I wish them a speedy and safe trip.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm guessing there'd be no unidentified fishing vessels, 45nm off the, Western Sahara coast?  But still, you'd need to keep an eye peeled, right?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Jean-Baptiste said:

Mes amis néerlandais ont l'avantage car leur pays est la pratique sous-marine de la voile et de la natation assez facile.

Mais les courants sont très forts en mer de Bretagne. Les Français ont l'avantage en raison de l'expérience.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Herman said:

Merci. C’est la première fois que les Néerlandais participent je crois.

Good to see you again Herman.

In the mean time I worked on this project:
Energy scenario for unlimited green, cooling down the planet, energy without carbondioxide emmisions
Please keep discussions about that in the political anarchy thread above.
I don't want to disturb the Transat Jacques Vabre race discussion.

I hope the new ultime trimaran SVR Lazartique, Francois Gabart will win.
but to beat the mighty Maxi Edmond the Rothschild with GFranck gammas isn't easy. 

Greetings,
Still racing ORC 2?

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, staysail said:

Initiatives take the lead! Bravo Nico and Sam!

Pretty close racing in the Imoca's at the coast of Senegal.
1849775154_ImocaTJF202114-110926.PNG.0642fc3e79a8576754f4b448dfe04e96.PNG
Indeed Samatha Davies proves she is better then the rest.
Together with Nicolas Lunven.
sam-davies-embarque-nicolas-lunven-sur-la-transat-jacques_5682742.jpg.1a20fbe629d1f8f002159a53fa671963.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Weather update Nov 14th

Pic 1 has the big picture with NOAA synoptic overlay and GFS winds for 1200 UTC. Two LP zones next to the Azores and the Canary Islands. And one huge HP in the middle of the Atlantic. Nice sailing conditions for all boats in the coming days it seems. All boats can reach, except for 1 boat, the Ultime classe leader.

Pic 2 has a zoom on the ITCZ between the continents as per NOAA overlay, GFS winds and the inverted Sat IR picture on top of that with 11:00 positions (see the red dots for the Ultimes). Charles and Franck have reached the ITCZ, and almost punched-through steaming along at 20kts in the past 4 hrs (!). White fluffy stuff are clouds. The GFS wind arrows indicate that they are almost through the northern part of the ITCZ, hence the headwinds appear in the southern part of that zone. Black arrows are forecasted waves, primarily wind waves it seems from the trades north and south of the ITCZ. Frank and Charles seem to have chosen a good spot to cross the ITCZ as the satellite image show (relative less cloud activity), but they do have a shore navigation team to guide them.

And thanks again Kass for several of your tips, these are much appreciated as it should be mentioned here too. 

 

The big picture Nov 14 1100.png

1144609747_ZOOMITCZ.png

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Currents, my dear

Back testing the OpenCPN climate plugin for currents at Nov 14th (red arrows) against the actual OSCAR currents @ 00 UTC (black arrows) shows that the climate plugin seems to be good enough to use for currents. Saildocs only can provide smaller RTOFS GRIB files due to the max mail  size from Gmail. So currents are not available for the whole race course. So I will use a smaller part of the race course with RTOFS and let the climate plugin do the rest of the race course.

Backtesting OSCAR actuals versus OpenCPN climate plugin.png

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

What is happening in the Ultime fleet is interesting as wel:
1142723170_TJVUltime14-november2021.thumb.PNG.b8aa32f97ffac10112a039c683a19efe.PNG
 

My bets were on the new SVR Lazartique, but the mighty Maxi Edmond the Rothschild is not easily beaten.
This race looks like America's cup in some aspects, certainly the budgets are comparable.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Routing LinkedOut

First routing test for an IMOCA, the most western one in the leading group, LinkedOut.

Input;

  1. GFS 10 days up to the 24th and after that the OpenCPN climate plugin (see color change in isochrones NW of Noronha).
  2. IMOCA standard polars powered to 101%. I had LinkedOut during the VG @ 99% powered but give now 2 more percentage credit points after their performance in the past days.
  3. RTOFS currents up to the 24th and after that the OpenCPN climate plugin.
  4. FNMOC WW3 waves.
  5. Position 1400 CET.

Output;

  1. ETA Nov 30th in the afternoon
  2. Very, very smooth sailing conditions towards Noronha, and from there to the finish. No headwinds, no bigs waves. Champaign sailing stuff alert.
  3. No tacking 

Weather routingLinkedOut Nov 14th.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

Weather routing top-4 IMOCA

Weather routing for the first 4 IMOCAs indicate that this could be an interesting race to follow. ETA for all within 4 hours @ November 30th.

Polars have been tweaked in order to reflect the boat and crew as follows;

  • LinkedOut @ 101%
  • Charal @ 101%
  • Apivia @ 103%
  • Initiatives-Cœur @ 99% (mainly for the older boat - not the excellent crew)

See the 4 pics for the respective weather routing.

Initiatives-Cœur is bumping into the Zone Interdite de Mauritanie, and has to circumvent that too.

 

 

 

 

Initiatives-Cœur Nov 14.png

Apivia Nov 14.png

LinkedOut Nov 14 V2.png

Charal Nov 14.png

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Herman said:

Routing LinkedOut

First routing test for an IMOCA, the most western one in the leading group, LinkedOut.

Input;

  1. GFS 10 days up to the 24th and after that the OpenCPN climate plugin (see color change in isochrones NW of Noronha).
  2. IMOCA standard polars powered to 101%. I had LinkedOut during the VG @ 99% powered but give now 2 more percentage credit points after their performance in the past days.
  3. RTOFS currents up to the 24th and after that the OpenCPN climate plugin.
  4. FNMOC WW3 waves.
  5. Position 1400 CET.

Output;

  1. ETA Nov 30th in the afternoon
  2. Very, very smooth sailing conditions towards Noronha, and from there to the finish. No headwinds, no bigs waves. Champaign sailing stuff alert.
  3. No tacking 

Weather routingLinkedOut Nov 14th.png

Still not sure how you computer process those weather windows.
It's higher math. But you use software that calculate the higher math. Correct?
You use Wheather routing configuration version 131121?

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Herman said:

Currents, my dear

Back testing the OpenCPN climate plugin for currents at Nov 14th (red arrows) against the actual OSCAR currents @ 00 UTC (black arrows) shows that the climate plugin seems to be good enough to use for currents. Saildocs only can provide smaller RTOFS GRIB files due to the max mail  size from Gmail. So currents are not available for the whole race course. So I will use a smaller part of the race course with RTOFS and let the climate plugin do the rest of the race course.

Backtesting OSCAR actuals versus OpenCPN climate plugin.png

Nice work as usual @Herman.  Interesting that OpenCPN does not have a direct download for RTOFS.  I’m only vaguely following this thread.  Have you refined the IMOCA polars from Vendee?

Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Nice work as usual @Herman.

Thank you.

 

46 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Interesting that OpenCPN does not have a direct download for RTOFS

Actually, you can use the open cpn interface to generate a mail to send to saildocs. Problem is with the max gmail size. Any pointer to alternative sources is welcome.

 

48 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Have you refined the IMOCA polars from Vendee?

I use the ones I created for the VG, powered to various levels. As you know the polars for these boats are the best kept secrets, like for the Ultimes.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Schakel said:

What is happening in the Ultime fleet is interesting as wel:
1142723170_TJVUltime14-november2021.thumb.PNG.b8aa32f97ffac10112a039c683a19efe.PNG
 

My bets were on the new SVR Lazartique, but the mighty Maxi Edmond the Rothschild is not easily beaten.
This race looks like America's cup in some aspects, certainly the budgets are comparable.

 

 Verdier or VPLP? Camas or Gabart?

One thing's for sure, no one on the planet is even close to the French, in terms of design or ocean racing ability.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m wondering if the choice by Sam and Nicolas not to follow the three Imoca leaders west @0400 this morning and to continu towards the coast was done on purpose in order to have alternative weather options. Their DTL has doubled though from 20 nm to 40 nm, unfortunately.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

As to Dalin, regarding communication, he is really old school ..

Not a single video since the start apparently, did they have an issue ? Don't tell anything !

They should send some drones to spy on them !

Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Herman said:

I’m wondering if the choice by Sam and Nicolas not to follow the three Imoca leaders west @0400 this morning and to continu towards the coast was done on purpose in order to have alternative weather options. Their DTL has doubled though from 20 nm to 40 nm, unfortunately.

Let's see maybe it will pay, Arkea Paprec managed to join this second pack more or less.

Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, yl75 said:

 

As to Dalin, regarding communication, he is really old school ..

Not a single video since the start apparently, did they have an issue ? Don't tell anything !

They should send some drones to spy on them !

I've seen quite a bit from Apivia on Twitter.. and here's a recap for the whole week,  published tonight, with some embedded video clips from the week.  

https://www.apivia.fr/voile/actualites-voile/le-recap-de-la-semaine-1/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Organic&utm_campaign=14112021_Twitter_Recap+1

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, wildbirdtoo said:

I've seen quite a bit from Apivia on Twitter.. and here's a recap for the whole week,  published tonight, with some embedded video clips from the week.  

Thanks, good find:

Luc Nélias nous éclaire à nouveau sur la situation :

« Cette nuit, Charlie et Paul ont été les premiers à tomber dans une zone de vent plus faible et se sont donc fait rattraper par Thomas Ruyant et Jérémie Beyou. Ils traversent actuellement plein de petites zones variables et très

qui sont très difficiles à prévoir et à lire sur les fichiers météo. Ils ont donc fait beaucoup d’empannages aujourd’hui afin de se remettre dans la même zone que leurs concurrents. Toutes les heures, ils reçoivent, comme nous, les positions du reste de la flotte. Ils vont régater bord à bord pour franchir Madère. Il va falloir rester vigilant et sur le pont, car la suite de la course s’annonce instable jusqu’en deuxième sortie de Pot-au-Noir.”

Sorry, no time to translate properly, but here the Google translate:

Luc Nélias sheds light on the situation again:

“That night, Charlie and Paul were the first to fall in an area of weaker wind and were therefore caught up by Thomas Rettant and Jérémie Beyou. They are currently crossing a lot of small variable areas and very

which are very difficult to predict and read on weather files. So they did a lot of gybing today to get back into the same zone as their rivals. Every hour, like us, they receive the positions of the rest of the fleet. They will be racing side to side to cross Madeira. We will have to remain vigilant and on the bridge, because the rest of the race will be unstable until the second exit of the Doldrums. "

Sounds like Windy's NEMS model was pretty close, after all.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wildbirdtoo said:

I've seen quite a bit from Apivia on Twitter.. and here's a recap for the whole week,  published tonight, with some embedded video clips from the week.  

https://www.apivia.fr/voile/actualites-voile/le-recap-de-la-semaine-1/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Organic&utm_campaign=14112021_Twitter_Recap+1

Thanks ! Missed those

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/13/2021 at 7:33 PM, staysail said:

You are free to design the structure and mechanical strength of your foil so no one to blame but yourself if it breaks. Not free to design a stronger mast? How can that make any sense at all in an "open" class?

This has been discussed widely in Other Imoca forums and particularly in French arenas.

To understand why there is a One Design mast requires an understanding of class history and what brought about that to come to be.

What we are now seeing is what was a state of the art mast design with massive safety factors built in, being taken into a realm of completely unforeseen and unexpected load cases brought about by the performance upgrade that the foiling attempts have introduced. 

The OD mast was a great solution to large problem that help propel the class to be so successful, without which Imocas were unsustainable. The OD keel was the other element.

So do not confuse old but well intentioned technology being overwhelmed by much more modern situations as being non sensical. It's a nuanced argument that requires an understanding of how you take a large and diverse group of box ruled ( not open) designs forward, without making it too onerous on the middle fleet who are so important in giving bulk to the fleet and giving the class the sense of spectacle. Rudder horizontals are also being lobbied for, but that would further add complexity and great expense to a fleet who is successful, but who also know that the chase for technical excellence could send the whole show into economic obsolescence - remind yourself of the parallels of the demise of the Orma 60 Trimarans who literally self destructed by not balancing technical advances with robustness and maintenance of the wider fleet as a commercial vehicle.........

  • Like 8
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Boink said:

This has been discussed widely in Other Imoca forums and particularly in French arenas.

To understand why there is a One Design mast requires an understanding of class history and what brought about that to come to be.

What we are now seeing is what was a state of the art mast design with massive safety factors built in, being taken into a realm of completely unforeseen and unexpected load cases brought about by the performance upgrade that the foiling attempts have introduced. 

The OD mast was a great solution to large problem that help propel the class to be so successful, without which Imocas were unsustainable. The OD keel was the other element.

So do not confuse old but well intentioned technology being overwhelmed by much more modern situations as being non sensical. It's a nuanced argument that requires an understanding of how you take a large and diverse group of box ruled ( not open) designs forward, without making it too onerous on the middle fleet who are so important in giving bulk to the fleet and giving the class the sense of spectacle. Rudder horizontals are also being lobbied for, but that would further add complexity and great expense to a fleet who is successful, but who also know that the chase for technical excellence could send the whole show into economic obsolescence - remind yourself of the parallels of the demise of the Orma 60 Trimarans who literally self destructed by not balancing technical advances with robustness and maintenance of the wider fleet as a commercial vehicle.........

Also to make the class somewhat affordable. The more custombuild parts you allow on a open class the more expensive it becomes. Look at America's Cup, that's professional money throwing stuff.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone in the 40s has to be rolling the dice weather wise.  I've never seen such a confused Atlantic picture for mid-November.  The Azores high has turned into the Azores low, the pathways down the African coast look extremely hard to predict and plan, and the trade wind crossing after the Cape Verdes looks a bit wobbly too.  There will be a lot of very tired bunnies in the 40s.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, bushsailor said:

On another note the newer generation Oceanfifty trimarans are very very fast.

But the leading team, everial, who has made quite a split, is a Verdier 2009 one.

On the other hand, seems to me that the tri designs, especially non foiling ones, is more stable currently than monos, no such core evolution such as the scows.

And all the other aspects (rig, sails etc) may be more important.

Really interesting the Imocas race currently.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The big picture for Nov 15th

Pic 1 has overlays for

  1. NOAA Surface Analysis (color)
  2. NOAA Tropical Surface Analysis (black and white)
  3. Inverted Sat IR image (color)

Boat positions @ 0900 CET for the Ultimes and the top-6 IMOCAs.

There is a gale west of the Azores moving SW in the coming days until it is projected to dissolve around Nov 19th. No new interesting things, except that wave heights are increasing towards 3 meters with 6 sec amplitude around Cape Verdes. See pic 3. Wave heights will move south between the continents until Nov 16th as they will start to decrease again until the 17th when all will be below 3 meters again. Wave direction is SW following the trade winds. Waves will be steadily decreasing when sailing to Noronha after Nov 17th.

Weather routing and ETAs for the top-6 IMOCAs is in pic 2. No big changes compared to yesterday. Initiatives-Cœur an hour later projected. Routes more or less the same. All current positions for the top-6 are more west than forecast yesterday. Probably that ECMWF has the local conditions around Mauritanie better modeled.

 

586459722_thebigpicNov15th.png

Weather routing top 6 IMOCAs Nov 15.png

Waves Nov 15th.png

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Quite a big split at the front of the imoca fleet with over 200 miles of separation between charal and apivia in the last 24hours. 

 

Herman- your routing seems to have the doldrums crossing much further east than is typical.  I thought they would carry west further before dropping South. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Boink said:

This has been discussed widely in Other Imoca forums and particularly in French arenas.

To understand why there is a One Design mast requires an understanding of class history and what brought about that to come to be.

 

I think we all understand the history, even those like me who believe it was always a mistake. If you want to talk about affordable, just look at the money being spent on "custom" foils. To make a mast a bit stronger would cost peanuts compared and this race's dismastings just show, whatever you think of past decisions, it is now simply crazy to insist these boats have to sail handicapped by and endangered by what is known to be a too-weak mast.

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, staysail said:

I think we all understand the history, even those like me who believe it was always a mistake. If you want to talk about affordable, just look at the money being spent on "custom" foils. To make a mast a bit stronger would cost peanuts compared and this race's dismastings just show, whatever you think of past decisions, it is now simply crazy to insist these boats have to sail handicapped by and endangered by what is known to be a too-weak mast.

You can also have the reverse effect : designers/teams taking too much risks with optimizing the mast resulting in many dismasting (more what happened in the first place).

But yes, the OD mast may have to be changed.

Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, yl75 said:

You can also have the reverse effect : designers/teams taking too much risks with optimizing the mast resulting in many dismasting (more what happened in the first place).

But yes, the OD mast may have to be changed.

Do you not think designers can learn from past experiences? Losing masts is hardly beneficial to the sponsor and the skippers certainly won't want weak ones going forward.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, staysail said:

the skippers certainly won't want weak ones going forward.

The IMOCA class is skipper led, and so far they've talked about reducing the scope of the foils rather than changing the OD mast, that may change, but currently the skippers seem happy with the OD mast.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

The IMOCA class is skipper led, and so far they've talked about reducing the scope of the foils rather than changing the OD mast, that may change, but currently the skippers seem happy with the OD mast.

Have you checked with Louis and Sci-Fi?

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, staysail said:

Have you checked with Louis and Sci-Fi?

Have they put out a statement blaming the OD mast? Or even had time to do a post mortem to work out what failed?

If they are unhappy I'm sure they will talk with the rest of the IMOCA skippers and push for changes, the OD mast is not some edict handed down from on high, its a decision the skippers came to themselves and as such is something they can all vote to change...

IMOCAs are high performance race boats and something will always break if you push hard enough, its part of the skillset of the skippers to manage the loading on their boats vs the tolerances they've been built to. Its why they have so many load cells on them now, how many times did alarms go off in Boris's videos as he pushed Malizia to the edge?

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, staysail said:

I think we all understand the history, even those like me who believe it was always a mistake. If you want to talk about affordable, just look at the money being spent on "custom" foils. To make a mast a bit stronger would cost peanuts compared and this race's dismastings just show, whatever you think of past decisions, it is now simply crazy to insist these boats have to sail handicapped by and endangered by what is known to be a too-weak mast.

 

But you do not appear to understand what is at stake here, how it has come to pass, and yet you think that more money and complexity IS the solution.

Yes, the mast is now a weak link, but they are currently only failing on the big budget foiling campaigns, who should know better and who can afford the alarm systems that mitigate their fragility. OD mast and keel systems removed a big chunk of cost and moreover an opportunity for designers to "over optimise". Simply put the temptation is too big for them to leave well alone. 

Pandering to the big end of town is not healthy for any scenario.

Trickle down economics is a Furphy........

Yet your thinking would jeopardise many mid fleet contenders, who whilst are unlikely to challenge for podium, give the Imoca events mass, inertia and spectacle, which is related to its popularity.

Increased cost and complexity does not translate in a linear relationship to improved racing, public interest or sponsor return. Tread carefully Grasshopper.

You can clearly not be persuaded otherwise, so I will just remain thankful that you are not directly involved in these important decisions.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, staysail said:

The future for Imoca is foiling and hopefully not a return to dismastings. Putting your head in the sand isn't going to change that.

So your take away from all this is to dismiss reasoning, and claim that I am anti foiling.

You couldn't be further from the truth.....

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, yl75 said:

Armel on BP XI is having a lucky (or smart) doldrums crossing.

Better than SVR - they had a big slow down and wobble around earlier this morning - not sure if it was all wind related or if they had some issues? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Boink said:

So your take away from all this is to dismiss reasoning, and claim that I am anti foiling.

You couldn't be further from the truth.....

 

No. Its just obvious to me that the mast needs to be matched in strength to the righting moment of the boat in order to sail safely and it seems to be common knowledge now that that is no longer the case.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, staysail said:

No. Its just obvious to me that the mast needs to be matched in strength to the righting moment of the boat in order to sail safely and it seems to be common knowledge now that that is no longer the case.

I would agree that the mast needs to be matched in strength to the righting moment of the boats having foils now. (and then strengthened again, to have a margin of safety). When they first brought in the new OD masts and keels in spring of 2013, foiling boats were still a thing of the future.

Someone was somewhat ironically calling Sam Davies' boat a 100 year old obsolete thing earlier in the thread, but in reality her boat is grandfathered in to run a non-OD mast bc the boat was built before 2012 or '13. Because she can run a stronger mast she can also run bigger foils and sail her boat more powered up with more RM. Something like 20% more righting moment than the newer boats which are constrained in RM by the strength of the mast. I certainly agree that it's time to re-think the current spec of the OD masts, but her current boat is anything but slow, as we have no seen multiple times. Not to take anything away from her as a sailor, she is amazing. 

I will enjoy seeing her get a new boat more similar to Armel Tripon's old baot/ Louis Burton's new boat. Surely it will be a generation 2 build with all the lessons they've learned on the first boat. 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Looks like, APIVIA's offshore route has paid dividends - fastest speed over last 24 hours and back in front.

 

 

And also did not go west-east-west again looking for wind like Initiatives-coeur, Charal and also LinkedOut. These are very expensive miles. 
 

Le Cams tactics last VG; stick to 50 nm within the shortest route to the waypoint and let the others sail all over the place chasing wind with their fast boats. Less speed, less miles. This concept also works with fast boats though. So I think more pressure to the west combined with not backtracking east helped Apivia get in the lead again.

Further notably is the march through the ranks by Pascal and Charlie in the past days to 3rd.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

What a race this is. All the classes are exciting. The Imoca's are swapping leads and positions every day. Frank and Claud doing a great job on the big tri. Pity Sam went inshore so far but she has been amazing, give her a new boat and god only knows what she could do.? 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I reckon it is Charal and Initiatives that had a clear routing plan; stay in the East and leave the islands and their wind shadows well to starboard. Linked out also placing himself over there. I think it was Apivia, Arkea and 11th hour who were "wind hunting".

Lets see how it all pans out later today.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Not winning but having a lot of fun.
In case you did'n't know,  those two frenchmen are Francois Gabart (Nautical engineer)
and Tom Laperche. Unable to beat the mighty Maxi Edmond the Rothschild.
Franck Gammas (Ac for france challenge) Charles Caudelier Dong Feng skipper during VOR.
The most expensive ship hires the two most expensive sailors of France.
631700509_TJVUltimepositionreport16-112121.thumb.PNG.f34ada0844ecd84627c3386d9dae0cbb.PNG

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The big pic for Nov 16th

Pic 1 has NOAA Tropical surface overlay (black), GFS wind and IR Sat inverted. 

The LP zone / gale on the Atlantic has moved south of the Azores, but no impact on the fleet AFAIK. Further trades winds and clouds near the African coast due to that LP zone above the Ivory Coast. According to the NOAA forecaster, the ITCZ seems to be hard to pencil in, or partly dissolved at the location where Sodebo is.

Charles and Franck has sailed so far west of 30 west that they are only 220 nm east of the Brazil coast, see pic 2. I dismissed that thought more or less a couple of days earlier when doing their routing, but there it is. At current speed (31 kts) they could be around Trindade (866 NM) in 1 day and some hours. If I can find time, I will power-up their polar and do a routing in the coming days.

The Imoca top-6 has condensed as the light wind patches around the Cape Verde Island aka Lady Fortuna gives the competitors a hand. Initiatives-Cœur had a DTL of 122 NM earlier, now down to 84 NM. LinkedOut again in the lead, this class stays interesting to follow. Their weather routing are from a high level perspective more or less the same. 

Routing the top-5 shows that the ETA has been pushed-back a bit towards the early hours of Dec 2nd. All top-5 boats within 5 hours projected. See pic 3

 

 

 

1756554012_thebigpicNov16th.png

Zoom Rothschild.png

IMOCA top-5 routing Nov 16th.png

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, staysail said:

I reckon it is Charal and Initiatives that had a clear routing plan; stay in the East and leave the islands and their wind shadows well to starboard. Linked out also placing himself over there. I think it was Apivia, Arkea and 11th hour who were "wind hunting".

Lets see how it all pans out later today.

ATM looks like Linked Out and Charal will gain and have already been gaining over Apivia and the others, they are in more pressure and going faster. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Gitana revealed that they almost crashed into a cargo next to cap finistere :

Quote

« Avec Franck on a eu la peur de notre vie »

« Quand on part en mer, au large, on sait que les rencontres seront nombreuses. Il y a celles que l’on préfèrerait éviter et celles auxquelles on ne s’attend même pas mais qui font du bien.

Mardi dernier dans la soirée, c’était une rencontre du premier genre… Avec Franck on a eu la peur de notre vie, même si tout est allé tellement vite que sur le coup tu n’as pas le temps d’avoir peur. C’est après en repensant à la scène que ça te glace le sang. La zone du cap Finisterre, c’est comme le Rail de Ouessant. C’est super fréquenté. Entre les cargos, les porte-containers, les pêcheurs… Il y a beaucoup de monde et il suffit de voir tous les AIS (Automatic Identification System/système qui permet de détecter automatiquement la présence d’autres navires, NDLR) qui émettent pour comprendre que la veille n’est pas une option.

Déjà l’an dernier sur l’une de nos tentatives de Trophée Jules Verne (record du tour du monde en équipage, NDLR), nous avions dû slalomer au milieu des immenses unités d’acier. Mais c’était de jour et nous étions en équipage. Mardi, il faisait nuit noire, avec Franck on préparait un empannage (changer de direction par vent arrière, NDLR) dans un vent soutenu. Le cargo ne nous a pas vus et nous n’avons pas entendu nos alarmes. Franck a poussé la barre en grand pour empanner. Le cargo nous a frôlé, il est passé à 30 mètres de nous, moins que la longueur du Maxi Edmond de Rothschild… On s’est retrouvé à le longer. C’est dans ces moments-là que tu te sens tout petit…

https://www.ouest-france.fr/sport/voile/transat-jacques-vabre/transat-jacques-vabre-caudrelier-et-cammas-se-livrent-sur-la-plus-grosse-frayeur-de-leur-vie-6dd3c3d2-4540-11ec-9d76-237638043565

They were less than a boat length (30 metres) from it

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, terrafirma said:

ATM looks like Linked Out and Charal will gain and have already been gaining over Apivia and the others, they are in more pressure and going faster. 

Hello Terrafirma,

Long time not forumed, (don't know if that's proper english)
Apivia was not in the lead after quite a long time leading.

Imoca's are very competetive.
Ultime is a design race that has to be finisched in my opinion.
It is allready decided but we 'll see.

Tactics within the Imoca fleet:
How got Linked Out in front of Apivia.
Less sleep? Apivia fell in windhole?
Linked had better trim?Just guessing.

To keep overal picture:
This is the track for the four classes:
1182175527_TransatJacquesVabre2021carte.jpg.af0165e470098c844216dbedfb8438ad.jpg

And this is the recent position report on the Imoca's.
1594548344_TJVImoca16-1120211600.PNG.f2a15edf3cbff51a0d59388370b00d19.PNG
The Archipel Fernando de Noronha is still far away.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, yl75 said:

Gitana revealed that they almost crashed into a cargo next to cap finistere :

https://www.ouest-france.fr/sport/voile/transat-jacques-vabre/transat-jacques-vabre-caudrelier-et-cammas-se-livrent-sur-la-plus-grosse-frayeur-de-leur-vie-6dd3c3d2-4540-11ec-9d76-237638043565

They were less than a boat length (30 metres) from it

Wow, that was extremely close.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

This IMOCA race is the best one I remember. Closely fought, interesting conditions, great sailors. It feels like IMOCA double handed is better sailing than single handed. All my years-ago America’s Cup love is now focused here, after Ellison and Dalton put the nails in the coffin of the AC.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ET1 said:

For all of you who don´t speak French and don´t know yet: For translation of the french articles use

www.deepl.com

Spricht nicht jeder zivilisierte Mensch Französisch?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, loneshark64 said:

This IMOCA race is the best one I remember. Closely fought, interesting conditions, great sailors. It feels like IMOCA double handed is better sailing than single handed. All my years-ago America’s Cup love is now focused here, after Ellison and Dalton put the nails in the coffin of the AC.

Agree about IMOCA60s, but dropping the AC Proto this morning, over on SAAC has caused some excitement, surely? ;-)

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jean-Baptiste said:

Spricht nicht jeder zivilisierte Mensch Französisch?

Aberdoch, Ick spreche ganz einfach Französisch.
You own a homebuilt Breton lugger?
Pics please or is that too much of topic?

Back to the race. Easy sailing and good sleeping at the moment.

1109882908_TJVImoca17-1104092.PNG.368e3c7b51715914ee6170c2a69ad37d.PNG

1158402235_TJVImoca17-110409.thumb.PNG.fd684e1a6df6c0bba4eaeb09e4a980b9.PNG
 

Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:
2 hours ago, loneshark64 said:

This IMOCA race is the best one I remember. Closely fought, interesting conditions, great sailors. It feels like IMOCA double handed is better sailing than single handed. All my years-ago America’s Cup love is now focused here, after Ellison and Dalton put the nails in the coffin of the AC.

Agree about IMOCA60s, but dropping the AC Proto this morning, over on SAAC has caused some excitement, surely? ;-)

Yeah the Imoca racing has been great. Poor old 11th Hour Racing have gone from being 35 Miles behind the leading pack to 170 miles. It's a savage result if you miss the transition or go the wrong way. It would be fantastic to know how all the leading boat process their weather information vs go on a gut feeling or hunch because the weather routing can be incorrect. Obviously they all differ because look a the tracks the boats have taken in terms of staying offshore or going inshore etc. Yes the racing is great but don't know about the AC comparison, 2 different beasts but it's ok to prefer one over the other. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Yeah the Imoca racing has been great. Poor old 11th Hour Racing have gone from being 35 Miles behind the leading pack to 170 miles. It's a savage result if you miss the transition or go the wrong way. It would be fantastic to know how all the leading boat process their weather information vs go on a gut feeling or hunch because the weather routing can be incorrect. Obviously they all differ because look a the tracks the boats have taken in terms of staying offshore or going inshore etc. Yes the racing is great but don't know about the AC comparison, 2 different beasts but it's ok to prefer one over the other. 

11-th hour Racing Charlie Enright is having poorest boat speed at the moment.
You need more time to follow TJV and Ocean race and Jules Verne and Vendee Globe in comparison to AC. Now AC has only races in the larry AC50's.
And the design race. Today the protocol will be released...
Yummie can't wait...
506301301_TJVImoca17-110424.thumb.PNG.af9c5d04b2167f7b07237588c815f454.PNG

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/16/2021 at 1:09 AM, staysail said:

The future for Imoca is foiling and hopefully not a return to dismastings. Putting your head in the sand isn't going to change that.

Agree. And since rudder elevators are coming (maybe) can't imagine why a beefed-up rig would be necessary, meantime.

Link to post
Share on other sites