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Hybrid German mainsheet system?


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I have a German mainsheet system whose general layout you can see here. Although it may not be clear from the picture, the sheet terminates on the self-tailing winch with all the coils on the starboard side of the coachroof.

107609860_Mainsheet-Germansheeting.thumb.gif.f95d84c3856c2c0f00e9e7f53d916602.gif

I sail mostly shorthanded and would like to be able to trim the main from the helm. I happen to have an unused set of 57mm Harken Carbo blocks with an 8:1 purchase. Their safe working load is 1800 lbs. My mainsail is 370 sf. According to Harken's sheet load calculator, I would reach the swl limit in 25 kts of breeze. Harken has also told me that the 57mm blocks are too small to be used as stand-alone end-boom sheeting.

Before investing in a new system and line altogether, I am wondering: 1) if it's doable to combine the 8:1 and the German system, and 2) would combining them bring the Carbo blocks within their swl. In all my internet searches, I’ve only found one online post (on this site from 2012) describing something similar to what I have in mind, and it may be a bad idea for reasons that you’ll point out, but the idea is as follows: detach the bottom block of the current German system that is connected to the traveller (just out of view in the picture above) and connect it to the 8:1. In other words, the 8:1 would be installed in between the traveller and the 2:1 of the German system. I’ve understood the German system to distribute the sheet load along the boom, but I don’t know to what extent – e.g., is 90% of the load carried by the end-boom blocks, or is it more like 60%? Could the load reduction bring the Carbo blocks within their swl?

I realize that this might be an unorthodox approach, but I’m really just looking to have the mainsheet in hand to trim upwind and dump enough of the main when needed to help with steering. I’m fine with going forward to do big eases for off wind sailing from the coachroof. Any input is much appreciated.

 

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The end blocks on your current system take close enough to 100% of the load so with what you've proposed you still end up with the 8:1 taking 100% of the static load.  All you've done is taken some shock loading off the 8:1.  

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2 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

The end blocks on your current system take close enough to 100% of the load so with what you've proposed you still end up with the 8:1 taking 100% of the static load.  All you've done is taken some shock loading off the 8:1.  

Right. That's what I was wondering. Looking like I'll have to pony up for a different system. 

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4 hours ago, Will1073 said:

If you place a LFR or a single high load block on the end of your boom, you could then cascade down to the hardware that you already have, thus reducing the load.

Which is a grand idea if you're not big on letting the sail out much.

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11 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Something like this is the answer. Most manufacturers have an equivalent. It's only money.

 

Edit. Sorry, forgot the link

https://www.ronstan.com/marine/range.asp?RnID=012B

 

 

Thanks. Yes, that's the alternative I'm looking at it. 

8 hours ago, Will1073 said:

If you place a LFR or a single high load block on the end of your boom, you could then cascade down to the hardware that you already have, thus reducing the load.

That's something to consider, but I'm still not sure I'd be able to bring the blocks I have within their swl. Might just bite the bullet on this one and go with the two-speed system recommended above.

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18 hours ago, Will_Co said:

I have a German mainsheet system whose general layout you can see here. Although it may not be clear from the picture, the sheet terminates on the self-tailing winch with all the coils on the starboard side of the coachroof.

107609860_Mainsheet-Germansheeting.thumb.gif.f95d84c3856c2c0f00e9e7f53d916602.gif

I sail mostly shorthanded and would like to be able to trim the main from the helm. I happen to have an unused set of 57mm Harken Carbo blocks with an 8:1 purchase. Their safe working load is 1800 lbs. My mainsail is 370 sf. According to Harken's sheet load calculator, I would reach the swl limit in 25 kts of breeze. Harken has also told me that the 57mm blocks are too small to be used as stand-alone end-boom sheeting.

Before investing in a new system and line altogether, I am wondering: 1) if it's doable to combine the 8:1 and the German system, and 2) would combining them bring the Carbo blocks within their swl. In all my internet searches, I’ve only found one online post (on this site from 2012) describing something similar to what I have in mind, and it may be a bad idea for reasons that you’ll point out, but the idea is as follows: detach the bottom block of the current German system that is connected to the traveller (just out of view in the picture above) and connect it to the 8:1. In other words, the 8:1 would be installed in between the traveller and the 2:1 of the German system. I’ve understood the German system to distribute the sheet load along the boom, but I don’t know to what extent – e.g., is 90% of the load carried by the end-boom blocks, or is it more like 60%? Could the load reduction bring the Carbo blocks within their swl?

I realize that this might be an unorthodox approach, but I’m really just looking to have the mainsheet in hand to trim upwind and dump enough of the main when needed to help with steering. I’m fine with going forward to do big eases for off wind sailing from the coachroof. Any input is much appreciated.

 

The beauty of the German system is that it allows you to rapidly trim and keep The mainsheet under control during a jibe 

keep the system

add sheet hangers on the boom to keep the sheet from sagging and chopping off someone head  

Replace that block and use a style that keeps the block close to the boom 

I prefer 2 single blocks rather than a double 

 Use the smallest diameter mainsheet  that is rated for your boat 

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51 minutes ago, ctutmark said:

Do you have any winches aft of the primaries? Could these be used for the mainsheet? 

A classic setup is to use the secondary winch’s as mainsheet winches 

With the Mainsheet on the windward winch , the leeward winch can be freed up for , Genoa  , spin sheet   by using a jammer  

DC8E9D77-3B9E-48D9-B2DF-A89885910DC2.jpeg

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6 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

A classic setup is to use the secondary winch’s as mainsheet winches 

With the Mainsheet on the windward winch , the leeward winch can be freed up for , Genoa  , spin sheet   by using a jammer  

DC8E9D77-3B9E-48D9-B2DF-A89885910DC2.jpeg

Exactly and easily reached from the helm. This winch setup might also allow for the german mainsheet system to stay with the re-routing of the lines coming aft on the deck from the mast. 

 

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Should not be tough to reorg things so the checkstays get snugged with the windward primary or get their own self contained tackle with cleat. For the spinnaker sheets could either share the winches with the mainsheet or go to the primaries. both systems take a little bit of juggling but not impossible. 

 

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10 hours ago, slug zitski said:

The beauty of the German system is that it allows you to rapidly trim and keep The mainsheet under control during a jibe 

keep the system

add sheet hangers on the boom to keep the sheet from sagging and chopping off someone head  

Replace that block and use a style that keeps the block close to the boom 

I prefer 2 single blocks rather than a double 

 Use the smallest diameter mainsheet  that is rated for your boat 

True, but it doesn't look like a big fat current trend boat with acres of space around the helm for everything to run back to.

In the absence of space, short handed, on a moderate size boat I don't think you're getting the benefit of the German system. You're still getting the disadvantages, ie fucking about with winches when you don't really need to.

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17 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Replace that block and use a style that keeps the block close to the boom 

Also, add a safety strop around the boom.  It's possible to rip the block off during an uncontrolled gybe although that loop looks pretty robust.

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A full picture of the layout would help.

Maybe a tackle can be installed on runners and then forgo the winches so you can use them for the mainsail.

Or some kind of cleat/jammer so the secondarys can double as runner and mainsail.

Or maybe there is a way of taking the winch you use now and place it somewhere elso to do the job but closer to the helm.

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Why not a two speed system off the traveller?  quite a few illustrations gathered here https://l-36.com/mainsheet_systems.php

We use a 6:1 with a 4:1 on the tail off a 315 sq ft main, the 6:1 tackle rides the traveler, the 4:1 was dead ended at the Mizzen foot to allow easy trimming of the Main fine and mizzen for tuning helm and responding to puffs.

With a continuous traveler control line to the windward sheeting car and the primary winches within reach of the helm, I can single hand Genoa, Main and mizzen without leaving the wheel.

Tacking in a breeze involves putting the wheel down, casting off the Genoa, dumping the fine trim as the boat goes through head to wind, hauling in the genoa, correcting heading, and grinding in the last few feet. Then bringing up the fine trim and traveler as needed 

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9 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Why not a two speed system off the traveller?  quite a few illustrations gathered here https://l-36.com/mainsheet_systems.php

We use a 6:1 with a 4:1 on the tail off a 315 sq ft main, the 6:1 tackle rides the traveler, the 4:1 was dead ended at the Mizzen foot to allow easy trimming of the Main fine and mizzen for tuning helm and responding to puffs.

With a continuous traveler control line to the windward sheeting car and the primary winches within reach of the helm, I can single hand Genoa, Main and mizzen without leaving the wheel.

Tacking in a breeze involves putting the wheel down, casting off the Genoa, dumping the fine trim as the boat goes through head to wind, hauling in the genoa, correcting heading, and grinding in the last few feet. Then bringing up the fine trim and traveler as needed 

Yes, I like that idea and will look into it. Thanks. 

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I've used that system as well as the 2 speed one I linked to above.

The advantage of the 2 speed one of that you never run out of fine tune like you do with the other option. The disadvantage is you have fucking miles of line around when fully sheeted in.

Not sure which option is cheaper, you'll have to do the sums.

The traveler with a continuous line as the Lion mentioned is great.

 

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On 2/16/2021 at 12:15 PM, Ultraman said:

Also, add a safety strop around the boom.  It's possible to rip the block off during an uncontrolled gybe although that loop looks pretty robust.

If you have a loose footed main,  you can put a strop right around the boom for your blocks to hang on....  just reduces some metal and clutter.  

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