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INEOS TO DO List if they want to start winning


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1) Pre-start, Ben needs to steer the boat and let Giles do tactics. Right now he’s doing both jobs. This is never going to work unless you are faster and more agile (Burling in Bermuda).

2) The aero set-up looks dreadful, when compared to Prada. All the grinders sticking up way too high. OK, they can’t drop them down, but surely a better fairing would help.

3) The bottom 1m of the main looks like a dog’s breakfast. Really ghastly. They won’t be able to switch to a boom free set-up but they must be able to improve this.

If they lose and want to try again there are some big questions for Ben and number 1 has to be his role. Sure he’s a GOAT but the world has moved on. He’s a very dominant character and needs to work out if he can be de-facto team boss and drive the boat. A quick chat with Coutts should convince him that he should pass on the baton, find a new driver and run the show.  


 

PRADA.jpg

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43 minutes ago, Clapham said:

1) Pre-start, Ben needs to steer the boat and let Giles do tactics. Right now he’s doing both jobs. This is never going to work unless you are faster and more agile (Burling in Bermuda).

2) The aero set-up looks dreadful, when compared to Prada. All the grinders sticking up way too high. OK, they can’t drop them down, but surely a better fairing would help.

 

3) The bottom 1m of the main looks like a dog’s breakfast. Really ghastly. They won’t be able to switch to a boom free set-up but they must be able to improve this.

 

If they lose and want to try again there are some big questions for Ben and number 1 has to be his role. Sure he’s a GOAT but the world has moved on. He’s a very dominant character and needs to work out if he can be de-facto team boss and drive the boat. A quick chat with Coutts should convince him that he should pass on the baton, find a new driver and run the show.  

 


 

PRADA.jpg

coupe of things..

INEOS had the same set up in the RR and beat Prada, aero doesn't suddenly get worse if let unchanged.

boats have been measured so you cant change anything even if you wanted to (chucking in aero fairings) new boom etc.

getting the starts right and no errors are the two biggest things that they do have control over and are 'easiest' to get right.

 

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so how did Ineos beat Prada before with the unholy combination of main and grider non Aero 'issues'?

A. they didnt it was all a made up narrative

B they sailed better and didn't make any mistakes?

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7 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

so how did Ineos beat Prada before with the unholy combination of main and grider non Aero 'issues'?

A. they didnt it was all a made up narrative

B they sailed better and didn't make any mistakes?

C. Prada were not as good as they are now?

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13 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

so how did Ineos beat Prada before with the unholy combination of main and grider non Aero 'issues'?

A. they didnt it was all a made up narrative

B they sailed better and didn't make any mistakes?

Prada was just worse and made lots of errors

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55 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

so how did Ineos beat Prada before with the unholy combination of main and grider non Aero 'issues'?

A. they didnt it was all a made up narrative

Was listening to my daily QAnon podcast - it’s revolting what the fake SA media don’t want you to know, that the AC is actually run by a cabal of Alinghi fans operating from the basement of a Port Macquaire pizzeria - and the latest conspiracy was revealed: Max Sirena and @MaxHugen are actually the same person - blindingly obvious, same name and nobody has ever seen the two together! He/they have devised a diabolical get-rich-quick scheme, knowing that the anglo-saxon betting money would go to Rita, and then making sure LR’s performance in the RR would be pathetic to scare off any Italian bettor. As a result, he/they are the only ones having bet on LR and will rake in all the jackpot!

Only snag is @JALhazmat seems to have smelled a rat, he needs to be dealt with asap

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I don't think it is all doom and gloom for INEOS. If they had won the starts yesterday then they would have likely won two races. They were marginally faster in a straight line, offset by the 20-ish meters they would give away each tack. Light air is still a concern. 

The issue for them now, even if they improve their starts, maneuvers and tactics, is the weather. If they have another day with marginal wind conditions then they loose another 2 imo. At 4-0 there is not a lot of fat left...

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1 hour ago, marlowe said:

C. Prada were not as good as they are now?

this is also true, but asking them to not be as good again is unlikely to be met with agreement.

the OP siting terrible aero as the reason for the recent loss overlooks that the terrible aero was there when INEOS were wining but sailing error free.

 

might it just be possible that errors are the deciding factor in these races when two boats are very close in terms of performance?

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17 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Was listening to my daily QAnon podcast - it’s revolting what the fake SA media don’t want you to know, that the AC is actually run by a cabal of Alinghi fans operating from the basement of a Port Macquaire pizzeria - and the latest conspiracy was revealed: Max Sirena and @MaxHugen are actually the same person - blindingly obvious, same name and nobody has ever seen the two together! He/they have devised a diabolical get-rich-quick scheme, knowing that the anglo-saxon betting money would go to Rita, and then making sure LR’s performance in the RR would be pathetic to scare off any Italian bettor. As a result, he/they are the only ones having bet on LR and will rake in all the jackpot!

Only snag is @JALhazmat seems to have smelled a rat, he needs to be dealt with asap

That is a totally unfounded conspiracy theory!

Next you'll be claiming that I was born in Zurich Switzerland, and Sir Ben will get 50% of my six beers?

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15 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

That is a totally unfounded conspiracy theory!

Next you'll be claiming that I was born in Zurich Switzerland, and Sir Ben will get 50% of my six beers?

It's true. I've found where you are on Maps!!!

Hugenstrasse.JPG.18da4941cdfc83af0a8cacbae3b06a4c.JPG

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19 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

That is a totally unfounded conspiracy theory!

Next you'll be claiming that I was born in Zurich Switzerland, and Sir Ben will get 50% of my six beers?

You mean you only bet one beer? How disappointing

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Prada have out-sailed Ineos at the starts by ignoring the other boat and worrying only about how they are going to hit the line on time with speed.

INEOS absolutely MUST move their thinking way from the the agressive stance - "force the other boat to make a mistake" - to the defensive stance - "make no mistakes, and stay away from the other boat".

Prada has shown zero interest in mixing it up, and INEOS has screwed themselves every time by TRYING to mix it up with the other boat.  These boats simply are not conducive to match racing.  Mistakes are too costly.

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31 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

this is also true, but asking them to not be as good again is unlikely to be met with agreement.

the OP siting terrible aero as the reason for the recent loss overlooks that the terrible aero was there when INEOS were wining but sailing error free.

 

might it just be possible that errors are the deciding factor in these races when two boats are very close in terms of performance?

Certainly errors, particularly in the starts, were a factor. Whether they're the deciding factor is hard to know. It seems clear that if LR gets off the line in front they will be hard to pass. We don't know yet what will happen if INEOS is in front.

I agree the two boats are very close. My impression is that, in the light and medium wind we've seen, LR is a fraction faster.

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23 minutes ago, lupedelupe said:

The Ineos crew call Ben Guv. That's the problem. He wants to be campaign manager, skipper and helmsman. He wants to be at the top of the hierarchy. 

And it seems that when he doesn't get his way he gets rattled. 

You forgot designer as well. Kind of like the people who write the checks at Oracle pointed out about Jimmy at the debrief after the last cup.

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9 minutes ago, .......................... said:

You forgot designer as well. Kind of like the people who write the checks at Oracle pointed out about Jimmy at the debrief after the last cup.

What was it they pointed out about Jimmy?

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1 hour ago, D_Dog said:

I don't think it is all doom and gloom for INEOS. If they had won the starts yesterday then they would have likely won two races. They were marginally faster in a straight line, offset by the 20-ish meters they would give away each tack. Light air is still a concern. 

The issue for them now, even if they improve their starts, maneuvers and tactics, is the weather. If they have another day with marginal wind conditions then they loose another 2 imo. At 4-0 there is not a lot of fat left...

Ineos have shown they still have good enough speed and with even starts they can win races, but as you note, my second biggest concern after the starts is the weather. If it goes sub 10kts INEOS are screwed......and that is their biggest risk now i.e. even if they win the next 4 races, from here on they are very exposed to the weather.

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12 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

Ineos have shown they still have good enough speed and with even starts they can win races, but as you note, my second biggest concern after the starts is the weather. If it goes sub 10kts INEOS are screwed......and that is their biggest risk now i.e. even if they win the next 4 races, from here on they are very exposed to the weather.

Yup.  Their mistakes in weather that they COULD win in may have taken the result of this cup out of their hands entirely.

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3 hours ago, Grrr... said:

Prada have out-sailed Ineos at the starts by ignoring the other boat and worrying only about how they are going to hit the line on time with speed.

INEOS absolutely MUST move their thinking way from the the agressive stance - "force the other boat to make a mistake" - to the defensive stance - "make no mistakes, and stay away from the other boat".

Prada has shown zero interest in mixing it up, and INEOS has screwed themselves every time by TRYING to mix it up with the other boat.  These boats simply are not conducive to match racing.  Mistakes are too costly.

agreed - even though this is match racing, a penalty is not THAT significant. in traditional match racing if you get owned, that 360' will cost you ~20 boatlengths. here it's just 2.

SO, the reward for forcing a penalty is not worth the risk - concentrate on boatspeed, shifts and your own race might be better.

 

off the top of my head, the only other tactic Ineos could throw in is try and mess up the 2 helmsman setup, but forcing loads of tacks is not going to really help them either..maybe try and force LRPP to start on port with Francesco driving, but I kind of think they might have planned for that one already.

 

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7 hours ago, Clapham said:

1) Pre-start, Ben needs to steer the boat and let Giles do tactics. Right now he’s doing both jobs. This is never going to work unless you are faster and more agile (Burling in Bermuda).

They do have that principle .  In fast moving pre-start, helm has last say which is right. I think the helm tactician roles are better divided on Ineos than on Prada.  If anything needs tweaking, Ben could perhaps put a little more trust in Giles' input but its a small tweak.

2) The aero set-up looks dreadful, when compared to Prada. All the grinders sticking up way too high. OK, they can’t drop them down, but surely a better fairing would help.

Prada's fairing is sweet BUT this would impact speed differential at full speed , The speed loss seems to be at down speed where Ineos is slower coming out of manoevures.

 

3) The bottom 1m of the main looks like a dog’s breakfast. Really ghastly. They won’t be able to switch to a boom free set-up but they must be able to improve this.

Sail shape I suspect is something that Ineos should continue to tweak. I have no facts to support that just instinct. So yes I agree with this

 

If they lose and want to try again there are some big questions for Ben and number 1 has to be his role. Sure he’s a GOAT but the world has moved on. He’s a very dominant character and needs to work out if he can be de-facto team boss and drive the boat. A quick chat with Coutts should convince him that he should pass on the baton, find a new driver and run the show.  

Ben is a rare talent on the helm. I would leave him there . I dont think Ineos will be able to find anyone better . 

I think AM should get TH off the boat because he is good manager and not in the same league as Ben or Pete B. However I think Ben is in that rarefied air of top 5 helms in the world. So if they need an OTB coach manager, which I think is wise, that is easier to find than to find a helm in the same category as Ben .

 


 

 

1. Leave no stone un-turned looking at sail shape and foil performance

2.  Continue to engage in the start sequence. Ineos has no choice. The moment they are afraid to engage with Prada, Jimmy will own them. But Ineos has to engage and win the starts, Its the AC challenger finals. If you are not confident in your ability to win, you will lose.

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1 hour ago, shebeen said:

agreed - even though this is match racing, a penalty is not THAT significant. in traditional match racing if you get owned, that 360' will cost you ~20 boatlengths. here it's just 2.

SO, the reward for forcing a penalty is not worth the risk - concentrate on boatspeed, shifts and your own race might be better.

 

off the top of my head, the only other tactic Ineos could throw in is try and mess up the 2 helmsman setup, but forcing loads of tacks is not going to really help them either..maybe try and force LRPP to start on port with Francesco driving, but I kind of think they might have planned for that one already.

 

traditional match racing a penalty will cost you 20ish boat lengths - not sure what you are watching but 4 is more like it.  And its not a 360- its a tack and a gybe or a gybe and a tack depending on the leg they are taking it on. 

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1 hour ago, Gone Drinking said:

traditional match racing a penalty will cost you 20ish boat lengths - not sure what you are watching but 4 is more like it.  And its not a 360- its a tack and a gybe or a gybe and a tack depending on the leg they are taking it on. 

Either way, Tack + Gybe or Gybe + tack, you're going around 360.

 

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Prada is gona win this final, most probably, but then the prada/etnz thing gets even more stronger !

Part of the show ?

But then Britannia wiining could be even better!

Won't happen, looks like the fracking limeys are done with

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8 hours ago, lupedelupe said:

The Ineos crew call Ben Guv. That's the problem. He wants to be campaign manager, skipper and helmsman. He wants to be at the top of the hierarchy. 

And it seems that when he doesn't get his way he gets rattled. 

Being campaign manager and skipper/helmsman, are two important jobs that require full time commitment. Ben doing both is only giving 50% to each role. 

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14 hours ago, hoom said:

Cross the finishing line before LRPP

Seven times. The little details are important.

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11 hours ago, Paddywackery said:

What was it they pointed out about Jimmy?

He's a cunt?

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Waiting for Giles to say “Shut up Ben and steer the boat”.  
 

As pretty much everyone has said they need to win the start (or at least start equal) then control the race till the first cross.

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from https://yachtracing.life/americas-cup-prada-cup-final-weekend-1-analysis

Although Luna Rossa’s four races to zero score card might suggest an overall performance advantage, the data coming off the boats confirm that – other than in the marginal foiling conditions we saw for the opening race – there is next to nothing to choose between the British and Italian boats all around the race course.

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49 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Waiting for Giles to say “Shut up Ben and steer the boat”.  
 

As pretty much everyone has said they need to win the start (or at least start equal) then control the race till the first cross.

This exactly, if we just had Giles talking in the start box and Ben listening/not over ruling, it would be an improvement. I wonder if anyone had the balls to suggest this in the debrief? 

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14 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

from https://yachtracing.life/americas-cup-prada-cup-final-weekend-1-analysis

Although Luna Rossa’s four races to zero score card might suggest an overall performance advantage, the data coming off the boats confirm that – other than in the marginal foiling conditions we saw for the opening race – there is next to nothing to choose between the British and Italian boats all around the race course.

In moderate to higher wind range, the VMG of the two boats is similar when they are going in a straight line. The problem for Ineos  is that LR are a lot better in the tacks. Mozzy noticed they were gaining around 20 meters/tack. That also helps them in the pre-start. Ineos have to work out a solution in a hurry.

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53 minutes ago, 45Roller said:

This exactly, if we just had Giles talking in the start box and Ben listening/not over ruling, it would be an improvement. I wonder if anyone had the balls to suggest this in the debrief? 

Reminds me of Jimmy suggesting in Bermuda that he might not helm the boat after losing a number of successive races. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, 45Roller said:

This exactly, if we just had Giles talking in the start box and Ben listening/not over ruling, it would be an improvement. I wonder if anyone had the balls to suggest this in the debrief? 

not likely, tis british protocol to shoot messengers

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Hire a skipper and tactician who innately know apparent wind sailing? They need to be able to feel when the boat isn't going fast the instant it happens. They need to innately know when to foot or pinch. Innately know where to be on the course when you're travelling really fucking fast.

The 3 in charge of the kiwi boat last AC and now, have been apparent wind sailors from their teenage years. They understand it, live it and have (nearly) won everything to do with it.

I feel for all the old skippers in the foiling AC boats.

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Are you suggesting that BA and GS don't "innately" know "apparent wind sailing"?

I wonder how other world class Finn sailors would react to that.

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Just now, MaxHugen said:

Are you suggesting that BA and GS don't "innately" know "apparent wind sailing"?

I wonder how other world class Finn sailors would react to that.

Are finns apparent wind boats? What's their top speed?

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Just now, Ncik said:

Are finns apparent wind boats? What's their top speed?

What is your definition of "apparent wind sailing"?

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Just now, MaxHugen said:

What is your definition of "apparent wind sailing"?

Skiffs and faster. Must run hot angles downwind. Capable of faster than wind speed...?

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7 minutes ago, Ncik said:

Skiffs and faster. Must run hot angles downwind. Capable of faster than wind speed...?

Is that like the F50s, when BA's team won the the first (and only) SailGP race of 2020?

Without "innately know[ing] apparent wind sailing"?

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I would say under 30 (reaction time?), foiling moth champion, preferably another foiling sail boat champion, to understand and be able to react quickly enough.

Also Sir Ben has too much on his shoulders and he is not doing anything well!

IMHO

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2 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

I would say under 30 (reaction time?), foiling moth champion, preferably another foiling sail boat champion, to understand and be able to react quickly enough.

Also Sir Ben has too much on his shoulders and he is not doing anything well!

IMHO

Certainly agree that BA probably has taken on too many "hats".

However, SailGP restarts in April I think, and will include a NZ team headed by PB.  SGP has attracted many of the top foiling sailors around the world, and as they are on strict one-class identical boats, it will be very interesting.  IMO.  :)

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50 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Is that like the F50s, when BA's team won the the first (and only) SailGP race of 2020?

Without "innately know[ing] apparent wind sailing"?

Iain Jenson was onboard in a pivotal role as wing trimmer.

https://sailgp.com/news/gbr-presented-by-ineos-line-up-confirmed/

But I wouldn't put too much weight on that result as there was a pandemic winding into gear around then and competition focus may not have been A grade.

 

Fair cop, he's done more apparent wind sailing than me, but he hasn't done more than the ETNZ 3 and I bet he hasn't done more than Francesco.

 

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Has there been a fake tack yet?  Like, drop the windward board and not tack?  I’m trying to figure whether that would work given the closing speeds.  The Brits could run around a bit too.  Is there such a thing as a crash tack with these things?

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2 minutes ago, Amati said:

Has there been a fake tack yet?  Like, drop the windward board and not tack?  I’m trying to figure whether that would work given the closing speeds.  The Brits could run around a bit too.  Is there such a thing as a crash tack with these things?

there is  but i think it'd involve water and fish and swimming

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On 2/17/2021 at 6:26 AM, Amati said:

Has there been a fake tack yet?  Like, drop the windward board and not tack?  I’m trying to figure whether that would work given the closing speeds.  The Brits could run around a bit too.  Is there such a thing as a crash tack with these things?

I have been wondering the same thing. The 'no look' gybe by ETNZ in Bermuda was great.

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I posted in another thread that Oracle started winning in SF when they started footing upwind like a hobie 16.  The brits need to follow similar advice and start tacking like cat sailors.

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4 hours ago, Clapham said:

Ben has obvously logged into SA and picked up the negative vibe on his lower main. Work in progress.

inmain.jpeg

I still wait for the day a team puts a big yellow arrow on their boat pointing at something new...

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On 2/17/2021 at 5:49 PM, MaxHugen said:

Certainly agree that BA probably has taken on too many "hats".

However, SailGP restarts in April I think, and will include a NZ team headed by PB.  SGP has attracted many of the top foiling sailors around the world, and as they are on strict one-class identical boats, it will be very interesting.  IMO.  :)

What? No lead-filled kingposts anymore?

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1 hour ago, Nutta said:

I still wait for the day a team puts a big yellow arrow on their boat pointing at something new...

Or just a random yellow line. Would have us coming up with theories for weeks.

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10 minutes ago, 45Roller said:

Someone needs to go full EvH 

_20210220_011439.JPG

Stop that, that is like flashing lights to someone with epilepsy. You will trigger some of our more sensitive souls.

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6 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Amway went one better tack bear away crash...

 

If they only could control that, turn it into a racing tactic!  It’s not a new idea...

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11 hours ago, Avant22 said:

Nice win. Goes to show they are not slow, and how important the start is

It was nice! Not sure if the boat is a tad slower or it's sailed slower but if they can remedy the latter, it's time.

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