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AC36: The Match (6-15th March. Reserve days to the 21st)


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5 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

None? So they had no say in the rules agreed for it? That seems a bit of a stretch. Especially with the wind limit reduction agreed for the match 
 

NZ could decide what they wanted for match conditions and Prada would have to take it?  Hmm 

You are sort of both right. Cor/D both had to agree upon the Protocol and the Match Conditions. Those are set. To amend them at this point, you'd need mutual consent (which means ETNZ could insist on no amendments). Section 28.2 of the Protocol gives ETNZ the obligation to organize the Match.

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4 minutes ago, accnick said:

And then there is that pesky Deed if Gift, which says no racing after the end of April in the Southern Hemisphere.  That provision was waived for the 2010 DoG match, which was held in the Northern Hemisphere in February 2010.

I can't remember if that one was ordered by the court, or was mutual consent between Alinghi and BMWOR.

It was assumed by Judge Cahn to have been mutually agreed, because both parties did not object to VLC during their first court appearance. Then the case dragged on and on through the levels of jurisdiction, resulting in a delay of the match. When Judge Kornreich made her decision about the venue, she just said that Judge Cahn's decision stands, which was VLC, not taking into account that more time has passed than expected, and the match will take place in Feb.
That way, VLC became the only court-mandated venue that can be used all year round :wub:.

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4 minutes ago, The Advocate said:

You posted that link in support of your position.

Don't be that fuckwit.

Obviously, you're keen to start an abusive argument,  but as I'm not interested in an exercise in futility,  it's all yours. ;)

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33 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

What delay, the Prada Cup delay? And who was up on arms?
There should not have been a delay, because Level 2 allowed racing. Unfortunately and apparently, the volunteers have been sent home for the mid-week races, so there was not enough manpower to actually organize these races - honi soit qui mal y pense.

The article below expressly states protocols existed to race in L 2 OR 3 

if those protocols were deemed sufficient then to run racing in L3 why are they not sufficient now  in L3 ?

they would have been agreed by all parties so it’s not like someone is being asked to contemplate a scenario or operating under restrictions that were not previously acceptable 

 

5863B583-4AF9-417E-89E2-B55312454DDF.png

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1 minute ago, JALhazmat said:

The article below expressly states protocols existed to race in L 2 OR 3 

if those protocols were deemed sufficient then to run racing in L3 why are they not sufficient now  in L3 ?

they would have been agreed by all parties so it’s not like someone is being asked to contemplate a scenario or operating under restrictions that were not previously acceptable 

 

5863B583-4AF9-417E-89E2-B55312454DDF.png

The initial NZH or Stuff article said that ACE needs to ask for permission to hold races under Level 3. That's all I can say, if you don't want to believe it, please feel free to believe something else.

The situation is no different to the one during the Prada Cup, only that nobody is whinging yet, at least not outside of SAAC.

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

That about nails it, however that’s two months of lockdown at level 3 or 4. I can’t see such a long lockdown happening. 

That’s what we thought 12 months ago. 
 

If you nip this in the bud you’ll be fine, but it will spread like wildfire if there are asymptomatic carriers not acting responsibly. 

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2 hours ago, winchfodder said:

It would be great if all parties agreed to continue to completion. However that is not typical of yacht racing, or any sporting event where weather intervenes.

The reading is that if not completed by the 15th, racing continues every day till the 21st only.

It might be that the 21st is the final race day as Rh suggests. Game over kiwi win?

The match rules do not say 3/21 is a hard stop like the CSS rules did. Rather, the match rules identify 3/21 as the last reserve day. The match rules indicate that if the match isn't concluded by 3/15, the racing continues each day thereafter until completed. 

This is a bit ambiguous, so the drafters get a poor grade, but the most reasonable interpretation is that the match continues until it is complete and that identifying 3/21 as the last reserve day does not overrule that.  The drafters clearly new how to put in a hard date if they wanted to, because they did for the CSS. They didn't use that same language here, so they must have intended a different result (i.e., no hard date).

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2 minutes ago, porthos said:

The match rules do not say 3/21 is a hard stop like the CSS rules did. Rather, the match rules identify 3/21 as the last reserve day. The match rules indicate that if the match isn't concluded by 3/15, the racing continues each day thereafter until completed. 

This is a bit ambiguous, so the drafters get a poor grade, but the most reasonable interpretation is that the match continues until it is complete and that identifying 3/21 as the last reserve day does not overrule that.  The drafters clearly new how to put in a hard date if they wanted to, because they did for the CSS. They didn't use that same language here, so they must have intended a different result (i.e., no hard date).

While I hope you are right, this one could end up in front of the Arb Panel, if LR and ETNZ don't agree upfront. It is written incredibly bad, and its intention is not immediately obvious.

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12 minutes ago, porthos said:

The match rules do not say 3/21 is a hard stop like the CSS rules did. Rather, the match rules identify 3/21 as the last reserve day. The match rules indicate that if the match isn't concluded by 3/15, the racing continues each day thereafter until completed. 

This is a bit ambiguous, so the drafters get a poor grade, but the most reasonable interpretation is that the match continues until it is complete and that identifying 3/21 as the last reserve day does not overrule that.  The drafters clearly new how to put in a hard date if they wanted to, because they did for the CSS. They didn't use that same language here, so they must have intended a different result (i.e., no hard date).

 

7 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

While I hope you are right, this one could end up in front of the Arb Panel, if LR and ETNZ don't agree upfront. It is written incredibly bad, and its intention is not immediately obvious.

Arb Panel it looks like if lockdown continues.

Do we also understand that the result can only stand if there is a seven point advantage, anything less by the 21st (if the 21st is a cut off date which looks ambiguous in the protocol) and the Cup stays in NZ.

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10 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

 

Arb Panel it looks like if lockdown continues.

Do we also understand that the result can only stand if there is a seven point advantage, anything less by the 21st (if the 21st is a cut off date which looks ambiguous in the protocol) and the Cup stays in NZ.

The Protocol (Sec. 1.5(d)) awards the cup to the first team to get to seven points (not a seven point advantage). If the ambiguity in the match rules on the end date winds up before a panel or court, the better interpretation is that the match continues after 3/21 until completed. Before even getting to that point, however, I would not expect ETNZ to hid behind COVID to retain the cup. I would expect them to agree to race and just agree with CoR to confirm any extended racing as needed. That is why everyone is here.

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Totally idle consideration: if Francesco Longanesi Cattani had succumbed to Tina’s charm and agreed to suspend Prada Cup racing until a Level 1 that never came, today the event would be in even worse shape ...

 

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1 minute ago, Xlot said:

Totally idle consideration: if Francesco Longanesi Cattani had succumbed to Tina’s charm and agreed to suspend Prada Cup racing until a Level 1 that never came, today the event would be in even worse shape ...

 

Thank God they hadn't an affair :D

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

I don’t see ETNZ retaining the Cup by default because COVID pushed back the schedule.  They will want to win on the water.

WetHog  :ph34r:

If they are not able to do that, would they prefer a default win or an immediate DoG challenge in AC75s by LRPP? 

 

Thought so.

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55 minutes ago, Xlot said:

What’s PI?

 

3.1415926535 8979323846 2643383279 5028841971 6939937510 5820974944 5923078164 0628620899 8628034825 3421170679 8214808651 3282306647 0938446095 5058223172 5359408128 4811174502 8410270193 8521105559 6446229489 5493038196 4428810975 6659334461 2847564823 3786783165 2712019091 4564856692 3460348610 4543266482 1339360726 0249141273 7245870066 0631558817 4881520920 9628292540 9171536436 7892590360 0113305305 4882046652 1384146951 9415116094 3305727036 5759591953 0921861173 8193261179 3105118548 0744623799 6274956735 1885752724 8912279381 8301194912 9833673362 4406566430 8602139494 6395224737 1907021798 6094370277 0539217176 2931767523 8467481846 7669405132 0005681271 4526356082 7785771342 7577896091 7363717872 1468440901 2249534301 4654958537 1050792279 6892589235 4201995611 2129021960 8640344181 5981362977 4771309960 5187072113 4999999837 2978049951 0597317328 1609631859 5024459455 3469083026 4252230825 3344685035 2619311881 7101000313 7838752886 5875332083 8142061717 7669147303 5982534904 2875546873 1159562863 8823537875 9375195778 1857780532 1712268066 1300192787 6611195909 2164201989

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5 hours ago, rh3000 said:

If we stay in Level 3 without government exemptions, then is possible there will be no racing before the deadline is up, at that point ETNZ retains the cup.

 LR wanted to race the Prada Cup in level 2, but they really had no power to bring those races into reality, other than to say if those races didn't take place before the original deadline, then they would declare themselves the winner as per the original schedule.

 This time round, they are on the receiving end of this deadline situation should ETNZ decide to play the same way... but hey live by the sword...

Why do you say that like some kind of "ah HA! Gotcha" moment?

Racing as per the schedule and the agreed rules is all that LR has ever wanted.   The rules say:

Monday 15 March to Sunday 21 March (incl).  If the Match is not completed prior to 15 March then racing will continue every day until completion.

So they should try to race under those dates/rules.  Some days will be abandoned due to too much wind, other for too little with. Some may be lost to L3 restrictions (and the government saying no or not being asked). No days should be lost to L2 restrictions, because they allow racing and there is no reason to not race if the level is L2.  If NZ doesn't want racing due to safety, then they can set L3 and give no exemption.   If the level is only L2, that means that the Government is OK with sporting events to continue, so racing should go on.

But either way, there are extra days in the schedule and then there is the "every day" clause that suggests no hard stop, so those are the dates & rules that all agreed and there is no "declaring themselves winner".  It is the rules, strictly applied, that will determine the winner, as they should from beer can racing to the AC.   

Now some rules are better written than others, and that "every day until" does look to have multiple interpretations.   If it comes to the 21 first and no racing has taken place or the teams are on even points, then my guess is that both teams will be happy to interpret the "every day until" bit to go on until one team has 7 wins.   If some racing has taken place and one team has a lead, then I bet there will be some wrangling over if the 21st is a hard stop or if the "every day until" overrides that, but who argues which side of that will depend on who has the lead.   Either way, it will be an argument about how to strictly apply the rules, as they should be.     If the rules are ambiguous, then arbitration and lawyers may be involved, as they should be.

There is no "receiving end", no "declaring themselves the winner".  There is just the rules and perhaps some ambiguity in them, as there too often is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, porthos said:

The match rules do not say 3/21 is a hard stop like the CSS rules did. Rather, the match rules identify 3/21 as the last reserve day. The match rules indicate that if the match isn't concluded by 3/15, the racing continues each day thereafter until completed. 

This is a bit ambiguous, so the drafters get a poor grade, but the most reasonable interpretation is that the match continues until it is complete and that identifying 3/21 as the last reserve day does not overrule that.  The drafters clearly new how to put in a hard date if they wanted to, because they did for the CSS. They didn't use that same language here, so they must have intended a different result (i.e., no hard date).

From the protocol and NOR, it appears to be ambiguous.

The Protocol agrees that the match will take place in March in New Zealand with the exact dates to be announce by RNZYS . The protocol fin 1.5 (d) further states that the match will be won by the first yacht to reach 7 points.  The protocol makes no provision for what happens if neither boat has reached 7 points by the end of March.

The subsequent conditions agreed to by CoR and Defender (in effect an extension of the protocol)  provides a schedule which ends on March 15 but provides reserve  days from March 15 until March 21st accompanied by the phrase If the Match is not completed prior to 15 March then racing will  continue every day until completion.

However the phrase is under the sub paragraph dealing with reserve days and specifically refers to the period March 15- March 21 . Did the draft writers thus mean If the Match is not completed prior to 15 March then racing will  continue every day until completion or every reserve day until completion.

But again, the Conditions document makes no provisions for what to do if the match has not been decided by March 21.

Turning to the Sailing Instructions , The SIs specifically refer 1.5(d) reiterating that winning the match requires 7 races.  But again there is no provision for what happens if this has not been achieved by March 21. 

Turning to the Racing Rules of Sailing as amended for the America's Cup......and finally we get our answer!!!!

Appendix A 2.3 (b) is very clear:

If a Competitor has not achieved the minimum number of points by the end of the final
scheduled day of that series, then the winner shall be the Competitor with the highest
score.   There is no final scheduled day in the Match.

And in paragraph A3.3, the SIs make it very clear that there is no provision for a tie break in the match itself.  7 races must be won to win the AC. Series cannot be shortened.

The bottom line is that according to the SIs, the racing continues until one boat has won 7 races for however long that takes. 

The only challenge to that is the protocol which specifies "March".   I think it is highly unlikely that racing is not complete by the end of March..  For sure nobody can win the cup unless they win 7 races.  They cannot award the cup to the boat to the competitor with the highest score on March 31st so either they keep racing or nobody has won the cup and it remains with the defender. According to the SIs, a challenger might be able to demand to keep racing because the SIs state there is no final scheduled day and the conditions say racing will continue every day until completion. The protocol seems to have a window to allow that the challenge only lasts thru March .

Highly unlikely scenarios but I suspect the event can be extended to March 31st.

 

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9 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

From the protocol and NOR, it appears to be ambiguous.

The Protocol agrees that the match will take place in March in New Zealand with the exact dates to be announce by RNZYS . The protocol fin 1.5 (d) further states that the match will be won by the first yacht to reach 7 points.  The protocol makes no provision for what happens if neither boat has reached 7 points by the end of March.

The subsequent conditions agreed to by CoR and Defender (in effect an extension of the protocol)  provides a schedule which ends on March 15 but provides reserve  days from March 15 until March 21st accompanied by the phrase If the Match is not completed prior to 15 March then racing will  continue every day until completion.

However the phrase is under the sub paragraph dealing with reserve days and specifically refers to the period March 15- March 21 . Did the draft writers thus mean If the Match is not completed prior to 15 March then racing will  continue every day until completion or every reserve day until completion.

But again, the Conditions document makes no provisions for what to do if the match has not been decided by March 21.

Turning to the Sailing Instructions , The SIs specifically refer 1.5(d) reiterating that winning the match requires 7 races.  But again there is no provision for what happens if this has not been achieved by March 21. 

Turning to the Racing Rules of Sailing as amended for the America's Cup......and finally we get our answer!!!!

Appendix A 2.3 (b) is very clear:

If a Competitor has not achieved the minimum number of points by the end of the final
scheduled day of that series, then the winner shall be the Competitor with the highest
score.   There is no final scheduled day in the Match.

And in paragraph A3.3, the SIs make it very clear that there is no provision for a tie break in the match itself.  7 races must be won to win the AC. Series cannot be shortened.

The bottom line is that according to the SIs, the racing continues until one boat has won 7 races for however long that takes. 

The only challenge to that is the protocol which specifies "March".   I think it is highly unlikely that racing is not complete by the end of March..  For sure nobody can win the cup unless they win 7 races.  They cannot award the cup to the boat to the competitor with the highest score on March 31st so either they keep racing or nobody has won the cup and it remains with the defender. According to the SIs, a challenger might be able to demand to keep racing because the SIs state there is no final scheduled day and the conditions say racing will continue every day until completion. The protocol seems to have a window to allow that the challenge only lasts thru March .

Highly unlikely scenarios but I suspect the event can be extended to March 31st.

 

Thanks for doing the work looking into all these documents. For completeness: The DoG says that no race can take place in the SH after 30. April.

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10 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

 

Appendix A 2.3 (b) is very clear:

If a Competitor has not achieved the minimum number of points by the end of the final
scheduled day of that series, then the winner shall be the Competitor with the highest
score.   There is no final scheduled day in the Match.

 

Good find. And just to be clear, that provision is talking about the what happens at the end of the a knockout stage, but therein confirms (as you noted) that there is no final scheduled day in the match.

That settles that -- the racing can certainly continue beyond 3/21. Problem is, the Protocol requires the match to be run in March, so the Cor/D would have to agree to amend the Protocol if it spills into April.  I suspect they can get this done in March but that they would agree to extend it into April if needed.

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6 minutes ago, porthos said:

Good find. And just to be clear, that provision is talking about the what happens at the end of the a knockout stage, but therein confirms (as you noted) that there is no final scheduled day in the match.

That settles that -- the racing can certainly continue beyond 3/21. Problem is, the Protocol requires the match to be run in March, so the Cor/D would have to agree to amend the Protocol if it spills into April.  I suspect they can get this done in March but that they would agree to extend it into April if needed.

I try to make a case for end of April, as the Deed trumps the protocol:

From the proto:
"16.1. The conduct of the Event shall be governed by: 
a) the Deed of Gift, and the decisions of the Arbitration Panel; 
b) this Protocol; 
c) the AC75 Class Rule; 
d) the relevant Race Conditions as agreed and adopted by COR/D which will include the applicable Sailing Instructions; 
e) the racing rules as agreed and adopted by COR/D in consultation with World Sailing and administered by a Jury and Umpires appointed by COR/D in consultation with World Sailing, together the “Rules”. 

16.2. Unless otherwise provided, the documents referred to in this Article shall have precedence in the order the documents are listed. Any conflict between the provisions of such documents shall be resolved in favour of the document first listed..."

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6 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

I try to make a case for end of April, as the Deed trumps the protocol:

From the proto:
"16.1. The conduct of the Event shall be governed by: 
a) the Deed of Gift, and the decisions of the Arbitration Panel; 
b) this Protocol; 
c) the AC75 Class Rule; 
d) the relevant Race Conditions as agreed and adopted by COR/D which will include the applicable Sailing Instructions; 
e) the racing rules as agreed and adopted by COR/D in consultation with World Sailing and administered by a Jury and Umpires appointed by COR/D in consultation with World Sailing, together the “Rules”. 

16.2. Unless otherwise provided, the documents referred to in this Article shall have precedence in the order the documents are listed. Any conflict between the provisions of such documents shall be resolved in favour of the document first listed..."

Thanks for digging into it Renny 

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50 minutes ago, sfigone said:

Why do you say that like some kind of "ah HA! Gotcha" moment?

If you can't see this is purely a case of the shoe being on the other foot then I'm afraid I can't help you ;)

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38 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

I try to make a case for end of April, as the Deed trumps the protocol:

From the proto:
"16.1. The conduct of the Event shall be governed by: 
a) the Deed of Gift, and the decisions of the Arbitration Panel; 
b) this Protocol; 
c) the AC75 Class Rule; 
d) the relevant Race Conditions as agreed and adopted by COR/D which will include the applicable Sailing Instructions; 
e) the racing rules as agreed and adopted by COR/D in consultation with World Sailing and administered by a Jury and Umpires appointed by COR/D in consultation with World Sailing, together the “Rules”. 

16.2. Unless otherwise provided, the documents referred to in this Article shall have precedence in the order the documents are listed. Any conflict between the provisions of such documents shall be resolved in favour of the document first listed..."

The mutual consent clause of the DoG specifically notes that the parties can make whatever arrangements they want as to dates, so on the issue of dates the DoG would point back to the Protocol as the prior agreement of the parties. And the more I think about it, the more (as goofy as this is -- why bury such an important provision in the appendix to the rules?  Drafters get an "F") the Appendix to the RSS that eyesailor found would likely extend the match as long as needed even though other provisions of the Protocol say the match will be in March.  The parties clearly did not think it would be necessary to go beyond March so they said the match would be in March, but included provisions that it could go beyond that.

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

If they are not able to do that, would they prefer a default win or an immediate DoG challenge in AC75s by LRPP? 

 

Thought so.

Thought what?

WetHog   :ph34r:

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Stuff.co.nz exclusive. Luna Rossa displays mesmerizing speed during secret night training. Kiwi crew on the chase boat estimated an extraordinary 1986.6 kts before losing sight of the Italian Red Moon flying around the Earth.

IMG-20210227-WA0001.jpg.6e5cb6ba5f4d189927ba784b7e63b376.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

I try to make a case for end of April, as the Deed trumps the protocol:

From the proto:
"16.1. The conduct of the Event shall be governed by: 
a) the Deed of Gift, and the decisions of the Arbitration Panel; 
b) this Protocol; 
c) the AC75 Class Rule; 
d) the relevant Race Conditions as agreed and adopted by COR/D which will include the applicable Sailing Instructions; 
e) the racing rules as agreed and adopted by COR/D in consultation with World Sailing and administered by a Jury and Umpires appointed by COR/D in consultation with World Sailing, together the “Rules”. 

16.2. Unless otherwise provided, the documents referred to in this Article shall have precedence in the order the documents are listed. Any conflict between the provisions of such documents shall be resolved in favour of the document first listed..."

I'll complicate it a bit.

By the hierarchy of documents, DOG is at the top, followed by the Protocol. RRSAC and the Match Conditions are way down the hierarchy list, and cannot trump the Protocol.

Amending the Protocol requires agreement of both the COR and the Defender. Ambiguity in the Protocol can only be resolved (absent intervention of the NYSSC) by the Arb Panel, per Article 53.4 of the Protocol..

If this got to the Arb Panel, my money would be on the Arb Panel saying "race  until somebody wins seven races."

With luck, it will get resolved in the water in a timely manner, and this is just of academic interest.

Speaking of academic interest, for those who are serious rules nerds--and I mean all AC rules-- there is a hardcover book entitled "Dispute Resolution in the 34th America's Cup," published by Kluwer Law International in the Netherlands. It was primarily written by the Jury for AC 34, which also functioned as the Arbitration Panel.

It isn't light reading. It runs 830 pages, and is 50mm thick.

At the end of the day, it's only a sailboat race. Except when it isn't.

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30 minutes ago, porthos said:

The mutual consent clause of the DoG specifically notes that the parties can make whatever arrangements they want as to dates, so on the issue of dates the DoG would point back to the Protocol as the prior agreement of the parties. And the more I think about it, the more (as goofy as this is -- why bury such an important provision in the appendix to the rules?  Drafters get an "F") the Appendix to the RSS that eyesailor found would likely extend the match as long as needed even though other provisions of the Protocol say the match will be in March.  The parties clearly did not think it would be necessary to go beyond March so they said the match would be in March, but included provisions that it could go beyond that.

"Drafters get an 'F'"- indeed, and not only for this issue.

Indeed, the AC racing can go on through March, and there's the back reference to mutual consent in the Deed. If Defender and Challenger can agree on a way to solve the problem, all these documents become moot.
The whole thing becomes interesting if they can't agree. Then, after March, they might need to revert to the DoG. Maybe the Deed can help, maybe not.
After April it might get even more tricky. Is the hemi clause MCable?

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10 hours ago, mako23 said:

Has anyone’s phones started screaming at them ?

My mrs phone started screeching as if thermonuclear war was about to break out

All that screeching and it said don’t go to work 

Mine said fuck all and it did screech last time you Jaffas went to level 3.

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6 hours ago, The Advocate said:

We had one case of the UK variant the other week of a quarantine security guard , locked down. Zero transmissions despite the fact the guy was also an uber driver who went about two days from feeling unwell before being tested and didn't quarantine.

When you say "far more contagious" you are drinking the Kool Aid.

YMMV

Yes. Many people don't pass it on at all, probably due to personal behaviours. Others will infect dozens, the superspreaders. It's an average of 3 people infected per case. Why this is no one knows. I suspect people who laugh more, talk loud, are close talkers, and spit while talking spread more. I was at a pub with one particular person, noticed spittle from about 1.5 m across the table landing regularly on my hands when they talked. 

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2 hours ago, sfigone said:

Why do you say that like some kind of "ah HA! Gotcha" moment?

Racing as per the schedule and the agreed rules is all that LR has ever wanted.   The rules say:

Monday 15 March to Sunday 21 March (incl).  If the Match is not completed prior to 15 March then racing will continue every day until completion.

So they should try to race under those dates/rules.  Some days will be abandoned due to too much wind, other for too little with. Some may be lost to L3 restrictions (and the government saying no or not being asked). No days should be lost to L2 restrictions, because they allow racing and there is no reason to not race if the level is L2.  If NZ doesn't want racing due to safety, then they can set L3 and give no exemption.   If the level is only L2, that means that the Government is OK with sporting events to continue, so racing should go on.

But either way, there are extra days in the schedule and then there is the "every day" clause that suggests no hard stop, so those are the dates & rules that all agreed and there is no "declaring themselves winner".  It is the rules, strictly applied, that will determine the winner, as they should from beer can racing to the AC.   

Now some rules are better written than others, and that "every day until" does look to have multiple interpretations.   If it comes to the 21 first and no racing has taken place or the teams are on even points, then my guess is that both teams will be happy to interpret the "every day until" bit to go on until one team has 7 wins.   If some racing has taken place and one team has a lead, then I bet there will be some wrangling over if the 21st is a hard stop or if the "every day until" overrides that, but who argues which side of that will depend on who has the lead.   Either way, it will be an argument about how to strictly apply the rules, as they should be.     If the rules are ambiguous, then arbitration and lawyers may be involved, as they should be.

There is no "receiving end", no "declaring themselves the winner".  There is just the rules and perhaps some ambiguity in them, as there too often is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe Weta could ask the question as he is registered press? 

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

I try to make a case for end of April, as the Deed trumps the protocol:

From the proto:
"16.1. The conduct of the Event shall be governed by: 
a) the Deed of Gift, and the decisions of the Arbitration Panel; 
b) this Protocol; 
c) the AC75 Class Rule; 
d) the relevant Race Conditions as agreed and adopted by COR/D which will include the applicable Sailing Instructions; 
e) the racing rules as agreed and adopted by COR/D in consultation with World Sailing and administered by a Jury and Umpires appointed by COR/D in consultation with World Sailing, together the “Rules”. 

16.2. Unless otherwise provided, the documents referred to in this Article shall have precedence in the order the documents are listed. Any conflict between the provisions of such documents shall be resolved in favour of the document first listed..."

(a) Per the Deed of Gift ,

The Challenger and Defendant can agree dates and conditions of the race. Hence if the Protocol agree dates, then those are the dates and by its own terms the Deed will respect any dates and conditions agreed by Challenger and Defendant

"The Club challenging for the Cup and the Club holding the same may, by mutual consent,
make any arrangement satisfactory to both as to the dates, ... .and any and all other conditions of the match,"

(b) Per the Protocol

The CoR and Defendant agreed in their protocol

4.1 The Match shall be held in the coastal waters of New Zealand in March 2021, ..... The above
date may be changed by COR/D if the Match venue is to be in the Northern Hemisphere

4.2 The selected venue and precise dates for the Match shall be announced by RNZYS by the
30th of August 2018.

In 4.1 they bound the match to take place in March . 

 4.2 became irrelevant after August 2018.

(c) Per the Match Conditions

In February 2020, the CoR and Defendant mutually agreed to the Match Conditions. Since they mutually agreed, the Match Conditions are as valid under the deed of gift as the protocol. They are in effect an extension of the protocol. Here is what they agreed.

Reserve Days Monday 15 March to  Sunday 21 March (incl)       If the Match is not completed prior to 15 March then racing will continue every day until completion.

This is ambiguous. The positioning of the language suggests that racing will continue after the official schedule finishes on March 14 and can continue with reserve days until March 21.  

The question is whether this paragraph creates an end to the regatta at March 21 or March 31.  Since no dates have been mutually agreed beyond March 21, some may argue there is no mutual consent for racing after March 21.

Others might argue that the protocol gave a broad date of March and the conditions used the language that "racing will continue every day until completion"

For sure racing cannot continue after March. There is clear mutual consent that the event shall take place in March. 

What circumstance would one of the competitors argue to continue racing after March 21 and another argue that racing should finish on March 21?

  This would only happen in one unique and unlikely circumstance. It would need ETNZ to be in a desparate losing position on March 21,eg. down 2:6 and by declaring the regatta over, the challenge is over and the cup stays in NZ.   If LR is leading, they will want to continue. If LR is losing they will want to continue (might as well take the chance of a turn around) . If ETNZ is winning, they will likely want to finish the job.

Do the RRS give any guidance between March 21 and March 31

I disagree with Eyesailor that the RRS add much to the date debate between March 21 and March 31.  The RRS simply clarifies that the match is not over until one team wins 7 races.  Namely, there cannot be a tie and there cannot be a winner who is leading when the schedule ends. If LR is leading 6-0 and racing ends on March 31 or 21, then the challenge failed to win the cup  and it stays with the defendant, 

Taken together, the protocol and its attached condition, and the AC RRS mean that in order to be a successful challenge you have to win 7 races before the end of the challenge period. That period either ends on March 21 or March 31.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, IPLore said:

(a) Per the Deed of Gift ,

The Challenger and Defendant can agree dates and conditions of the race. Hence if the Protocol agree dates, then those are the dates and by its own terms the Deed will respect any dates and conditions agreed by Challenger and Defendant

"The Club challenging for the Cup and the Club holding the same may, by mutual consent,
make any arrangement satisfactory to both as to the dates, ... .and any and all other conditions of the match,"

(b) Per the Protocol

The CoR and Defendant agreed in their protocol

4.1 The Match shall be held in the coastal waters of New Zealand in March 2021, ..... The above
date may be changed by COR/D if the Match venue is to be in the Northern Hemisphere

4.2 The selected venue and precise dates for the Match shall be announced by RNZYS by the
30th of August 2018.

In 4.1 they bound the match to take place in March . 

 4.2 became irrelevant after August 2018.

(c) Per the Match Conditions

In February 2020, the CoR and Defendant mutually agreed to the Match Conditions. Since they mutually agreed, the Match Conditions are as valid under the deed of gift as the protocol. They are in effect an extension of the protocol. Here is what they agreed.

Reserve Days Monday 15 March to  Sunday 21 March (incl)       If the Match is not completed prior to 15 March then racing will continue every day until completion.

This is ambiguous. The positioning of the language suggests that racing will continue after the official schedule finishes on March 14 and can continue with reserve days until March 21.  

The question is whether this paragraph creates an end to the regatta at March 21 or March 31.  Since no dates have been mutually agreed beyond March 21, some may argue there is no mutual consent for racing after March 21.

Others might argue that the protocol gave a broad date of March and the conditions used the language that "racing will continue every day until completion"

For sure racing cannot continue after March. There is clear mutual consent that the event shall take place in March. 

What circumstance would one of the competitors argue to continue racing after March 21 and another argue that racing should finish on March 21?

  This would only happen in one unique and unlikely circumstance. It would need ETNZ to be in a desparate losing position on March 21,eg. down 2:6 and by declaring the regatta over, the challenge is over and the cup stays in NZ.   If LR is leading, they will want to continue. If LR is losing they will want to continue (might as well take the chance of a turn around) . If ETNZ is winning, they will likely want to finish the job.

Do the RRS give any guidance between March 21 and March 31

I disagree with Eyesailor that the RRS add much to the date debate between March 21 and March 31.  The RRS simply clarifies that the match is not over until one team wins 7 races.  Namely, there cannot be a tie and there cannot be a winner who is leading when the schedule ends. If LR is leading 6-0 and racing ends on March 31 or 21, then the challenge failed to win the cup  and it stays with the defendant, 

Taken together, the protocol and its attached condition, and the AC RRS mean that in order to be a successful challenge you have to win 7 races before the end of the challenge period. That period either ends on March 21 or March 31.

 

 

 

I think that about wraps it unless we hear different from IM.

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Obviously ETNZ wants to race. They spent tens of millions on their defense. They want to defend the cup on the water.

However, dont confuse this with a typical championship. RNZYS are not winning a cup, they are defending a cup that is already theirs. If a challenge is defeated or fails to meet the terms of the challenge, then the cup stays with RNZYS.

If there is not enough time for enough races, it does not matter who is in the lead, RNZYS keeps the cup.

I think this is academic...there will clearly be enough time.

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Was reading the news on NZHerald about how this last case went on (and what he did) for 'bout a week. 
Even if he's a "standard" spreader (not a super) LR and ETNZ better get to an agreement on extending the time for racing before Monday (boat declaration).
Or he's a lucky bastard and on 7th of March we'll see some sailing.

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7 hours ago, mako23 said:

That about nails it, however that’s two months of lockdown at level 3 or 4. I can’t see such a long lockdown happening. 

But surely there should be no racing under L2 either. Prada was shit on by ACE and the kiwi fanbois for daring to want such a thing. So surely you will all be writing the Tina and insisting the local spectators and businesses need to come first. L1 or no racing must be the cry of the day.

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2 minutes ago, Gissie said:

But surely there should be no racing under L2 either. Prada was shit on by ACE and the kiwi fanbois for daring to want such a thing. So surely you will all be writing the Tina and insisting the local spectators and businesses need to come first. L1 or no racing must be the cry of the day.

I would hope Prada are campaigning voiciferously to start racing immediately.. anything less would be a little bit hmm 

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4 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

I would hope Prada are campaigning voiciferously to start racing immediately.. anything less would be a little bit hmm 

I think that might depend on the forecast from the 6th onwards of Level 2. LR might be happy to extend if it looks windy.

Anything less would be viewed as weakness by GD. Jimmy wouldn't like that.

This is not a friendly beauty contest and I would expect either team to play hardball to the very limits of what is within the rules.

 

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2 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

I would hope Prada are campaigning voiciferously to start racing immediately.. anything less would be a little bit hmm 

I am sure they have no problem turning up. I am surprised that Tina and her supporters here are shouting about how we need to wait for L1 before we can do any racing.

How about you, happy with L2 racing now or demanding we wait?

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3 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

I would hope Prada are campaigning voiciferously to start racing immediately.. anything less would be a little bit hmm 

Prada will obviously want to start racing asap because the clock stops on them , not on ETNZ.

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Just now, IPLore said:

Prada will obviously want to start racing asap because the clock stops on them , not on ETNZ.

and I should add that ETNZ want to race because.......well because.. they just like to race, spent a lot of money, and think they can win.

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1 minute ago, Gissie said:

I am sure they have no problem turning up. I am surprised that Tina and her supporters here are shouting about how we need to wait for L1 before we can do any racing.

How about you, happy with L2 racing now or demanding we wait?

Who here shouts that we need to wait for L1?

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36 minutes ago, 45Roller said:

race 1 from Bermuda while you're waiting...

 

 

Race 8 is the best where Etnz spin around and completely stuff Orifice head to wind, drifting at about 2 knots.

Gorgeous! Unless you are an Orifice supporter I suppose.

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17 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Race 8 is the best where Etnz spin around and completely stuff Orifice head to wind, drifting at about 2 knots.

Gorgeous! Unless you are an Orifice supporter I suppose.

yeah true mate, figured I'd start with race one tho, the OCS is great :D

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7 minutes ago, 45Roller said:

yeah true mate, figured I'd start with race one tho, the OCS is great :D

A genuine portent for the remainder of the match.

Starts won by a ratio of 7:2 by ETNZ and yet we have turkeys on here assuming that Spithill is automatically carrying the advantage in the starts.

Certainly Jimmy might win more starts, but there is absolutely no basis for assuming that to be the case.

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39 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

I would hope Prada are campaigning voiciferously to start racing immediately.. anything less would be a little bit hmm 

Oh please Jal, come  on, for the ACE COR controversy regarding the Prada Cup delaying you  were attacking Prada for debatable reasons, but at least there were some facts to be discussed. Now you are doing the same for something that at the moment exists only in your head.

Con i se e con i ma la storia non si fa.

 

 

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There is a very interesting implication: the NOR requires the teams to declare their configuration no later than 120h prior to the "first scheduled start".

That will be Monday March 1st 4pm according to the schedule that has not yet been changed officially.

I wonder how much the weather forecast would have had any impact on that declaration. By now, as I see it, there is not even a defined window, when racing will start at all.

So it will be interesting to see, if the cancellation of the first day of racing will be official before the Monday declaration deadline ... or after.

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The match will go ahead as soon as Jaffaland exits level 3.

Neither LR nor ETNZ would want this to be decided any where else but on the water, so all this speculation is just pointless.

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

For sure racing cannot continue after March. There is clear mutual consent that the event shall take place in March. 

I disagree, but it won't really matter. The Protocol requires the match to take place in March; the Protocol does not say the event can only take place in March. Rather, the RSS indicate that there is not end date for the racing, and the Match Conditions indicate that racing shall continue until someone gets to seven points.

A court will have to harmonize those provisions so that they all have effect and are not surplusage. The way to do that is that the match has to start in March (per the Protocol -- the match will have taken place in March as required), but can continue beyond March if necessary (which gives effect to the provision in the RSS and Match Conditions) until someone gets seven points (which is required by the Protocol). 

Like I said, however, it won't really matter.

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2 hours ago, accnick said:

I'll complicate it a bit.

By the hierarchy of documents, DOG is at the top, followed by the Protocol. RRSAC and the Match Conditions are way down the hierarchy list, and cannot trump the Protocol.

Amending the Protocol requires agreement of both the COR and the Defender. Ambiguity in the Protocol can only be resolved (absent intervention of the NYSSC) by the Arb Panel, per Article 53.4 of the Protocol..

If this got to the Arb Panel, my money would be on the Arb Panel saying "race  until somebody wins seven races."

With luck, it will get resolved in the water in a timely manner, and this is just of academic interest.

Speaking of academic interest, for those who are serious rules nerds--and I mean all AC rules-- there is a hardcover book entitled "Dispute Resolution in the 34th America's Cup," published by Kluwer Law International in the Netherlands. It was primarily written by the Jury for AC 34, which also functioned as the Arbitration Panel.

It isn't light reading. It runs 830 pages, and is 50mm thick.

At the end of the day, it's only a sailboat race. Except when it isn't.

I agree with this. The Protocol is the NoR and that will take precedence over the Match doc or SI's.

Great work by @EYESAILOR and @Rennmaus though.

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Here are the rules in order;

1) Number of  Sars-Cov2 particles in existence in NZ

2) Number of  Sars-Cov2 particles in existence in Auckland

3) NZ COVID-19 Public Health Response Act 2020 and orders made under it

4) Whatever LR and ETNZ agree to do

5) Previous agreed protocols

6) DOG

7) Winner of SAAC arguments i.e. no one ever

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1 minute ago, minimumfuss said:

Here are the rules in order;

1) Number of  Sars-Cov2 particles in existence in NZ

2) Number of  Sars-Cov2 particles in existence in Auckland

3) NZ COVID-19 Public Health Response Act 2020 and orders made under it

4) Whatever LR and ETNZ agree to do

5) Previous agreed protocols

6) DOG

7) Winner of SAAC arguments i.e. no one ever

Where is ACE in your list. Tina seemed to think her job was to protect businesses and the spectators in Auckland. Does she no longer care about them? Do they no longer have a voice in the argument? Do you no longer care about them?

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

I am sure they have no problem turning up. I am surprised that Tina and her supporters here are shouting about how we need to wait for L1 before we can do any racing.

How about you, happy with L2 racing now or demanding we wait?

Prada were happy to race in L2 or L3 in The PC final so get on with it... in fact they insisted on it, surprised they haven’t issued a statement yet  to be honest 

 

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1 hour ago, strider470 said:

Oh please Jal, come  on, for the ACE COR controversy regarding the Prada Cup delaying you  were attacking Prada for debatable reasons, but at least there were some facts to be discussed. Now you are doing the same for something that at the moment exists only in your head.

Con i se e con i ma la storia non si fa.

 

 

Prada wanted to race in L2 or 3 for the PC final 

we both agree that they wanted that? Yes? 

So why would they change their mind now with another L3 situation? 
 

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1 minute ago, Gissie said:

Where is ACE in your list. Tina seemed to think her job was to protect businesses and the spectators in Auckland. Does she no longer care about them? Do they no longer have a voice in the argument? Do you no longer care about them?

That's their job. Kiwis supported them. Your new chums at LR chose to ignore that and piss her off. Have you emailed or phoned  her yet calling her a cunt, like you have a thousand times anonymously? Thought not. 

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5 hours ago, mauriciogfj said:

3.1415926535 8979323846 2643383279 5028841971 6939937510 5820974944 5923078164 0628620899 8628034825 3421170679 8214808651 3282306647 0938446095 5058223172 5359408128 4811174502 8410270193 8521105559 6446229489 5493038196 4428810975 6659334461 2847564823 3786783165 2712019091 4564856692 3460348610 4543266482 1339360726 0249141273 7245870066 0631558817 4881520920 9628292540 9171536436 7892590360 0113305305 4882046652 1384146951 9415116094 3305727036 5759591953 0921861173 8193261179 3105118548 0744623799 6274956735 1885752724 8912279381 8301194912 9833673362 4406566430 8602139494 6395224737 1907021798 6094370277 0539217176 2931767523 8467481846 7669405132 0005681271 4526356082 7785771342 7577896091 7363717872 1468440901 2249534301 4654958537 1050792279 6892589235 4201995611 2129021960 8640344181 5981362977 4771309960 5187072113 4999999837 2978049951 0597317328 1609631859 5024459455 3469083026 4252230825 3344685035 2619311881 7101000313 7838752886 5875332083 8142061717 7669147303 5982534904 2875546873 1159562863 8823537875 9375195778 1857780532 1712268066 1300192787 6611195909 2164201989

why didnt you say 22 over 7 as it is intended which incidentaly is alsoi the key to perfect angles for a saw stool

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During L3 Prada wanted ACE to ask the gov for an exception to race. As agreed with the Defender in the contingency plan.
During L2 Prada wanted to race as also previously agreed in the contingency plan.

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

Who here shouts that we need to wait for L1?

Can't say as I'm shouting it, but personally I'd love to wait for level 1, but that's for the purely selfish reason that the AC village would then be open.

Realistically I doubt at this stage the government will ok racing at level 3, if we end up staying at level 3 beyond next weekend that may change. I suspect that even if we as is hoped,  drop to level 2 next Sunday morning there won't be racing that day, too little time to get all the volunteers organised, not all of them live locally. So I suspect the first races will probably be on Wednesday 10th and daily thereafter.

If this follows the normal pattern we'll be back to level 1 by the 14th of March so if one team is totally dominant then the whole thing could be over before we get back to level 1 which would be a pity. If it's not over by then maybe we'll get to enjoy the village.

  Our current death rate is 5 per million population I for one have no desire to see that rise, so who cares if we have to watch the whole thing on telly at home.... beers cheaper so that's a good start.

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1 minute ago, Rennmaus said:

During L3 Prada wanted ACE to ask the gov for an exception to race. As agreed with the Defender in the contingency plan.
During L2 Prada wanted to race as also previously agreed in the contingency plan.

Precisely, 

So why not now? 

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2 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Prada were happy to race in L2 or L3 in The PC final so get on with it... in fact they insisted on it, surprised they haven’t issued a statement yet  to be honest 

 

LRPP wanted to race the Prada Cup to give themselves time for more development. They were stuck in a measurement trim that couldn’t be changed until the Prada Cup finished.

Both teams are now in the sheds, adding more go fast bits and testing them on the water, the development will stop 120h from the first race

There will be an agreement on the first race date and both teams will be happy. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

During L3 Prada wanted ACE to ask the gov for an exception to race. As agreed with the Defender in the contingency plan.
During L2 Prada wanted to race as also previously agreed in the contingency plan.

3 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Precisely, 

So why not now?  

In the absence of Prada going back on this, a reasonable person is fair to accept they still stand by this.

Do you have any information to the contrary or are you not a reasonable person?

 

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2 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

I would hope Prada are campaigning voiciferously to start racing immediately.. anything less would be a little bit hmm 

Perhaps, but none of the teams are without sin so we might want to keep it all in perspective.

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5 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Precisely, 

So why not now? 

What not now?
Has a decision by ACE/ENTZ/LR been communicated about how to proceed? Please post the link, as I have no presser in my inbox yet.

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10 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

That's their job. Kiwis supported them. Your new chums at LR chose to ignore that and piss her off. Have you emailed or phoned  her yet calling her a cunt, like you have a thousand times anonymously? Thought not. 

Actually her/their job was to follow the rules agreed to and run races if at all possible. End of. Not to abuse a team that just wanted to do that.

So, are you happy for racing at L2 now, or will you be pushing for L1 only?

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14 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Prada wanted to race in L2 or 3 for the PC final 

we both agree that they wanted that? Yes? 

So why would they change their mind now with another L3 situation? 
 

Are you claiming that Prada don't want to race in L2, or just making up shit as usual?

Where are all those that moaned like teenage girls when Prada wanted to race in L2. Or is it okay now that ETNZ wants to? Hypocritical bunch of wankers.

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