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AC36: The Match (6-15th March. Reserve days to the 21st)


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Tonight it could be potentially be game over.

RYS and RNZYS representetives should be ready for the new challenge, just in case. Any news?
Asking for a friend. (Very scaramantic, those things normally brings some bad luck :D :D  )

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And just to add to that record, Mozzy Sails contacted me direct to ask permission to use my photos and even offered to purchase some, by way of compensation. I am more than happy to contribute an

Just for the record, I contacted @erdb @MaxHugen @doroxand @weta27asked if they were happy me using images or graphs etc. I always try to credit them in the video and in the description as agreed.  I

I want to thank all the amazing people I had the pleasure to meet here on Sailing Anarchy during this America's Cup. It's a huge list. Brits, Irish, Kiwis, fellow Italians, French, Dutch, Americans, C

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Anyone know what apparent wind angles the boats were getting in displacement mode? With appropriate modifications to the class rule, would it be possible to hoist a spinnaker (or code zero) specifically to get back onto the foils, even though you'd have to drop it once you were up and running?

That wouldn't remove the jeopardy of coming off the foils, you'd still lose a heap of distance, but it might eliminate the "race is over unless the other boat also comes off the foils" element.

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2 minutes ago, Dave S said:

With appropriate modifications to the class rule, would it be possible to hoist a spinnaker (or code zero) specifically to get back onto the foils, even though you'd have to drop it once you were up and running?

How much wind would they need to stay on foils while taking the kite down? Quite a lot of drag from the kite then.

17 knots is needed to get up and they sail 90 deg TWA at 7 knots TWS. That's 22.5 deg AWA, thus just as on a beat for us mortals. Not really a kite AWA!

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18 minutes ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

Quite simply remove rule 16.1.  The ROW boat should have the ROW to sail where they please. The GW boat should have the onus of keeping clear.   

Remember, back in 2017 there were specific rules that ALLOWED for hunting!!!  It was written into the rules that you were allowed to bear away upto 90° off true wind for the sole purpose of engaging your opponent.   Hunting and forcing penalties was encouraged. 

Now, the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction.  Now you can't hunt. Okay.  But, also as the ROW vessel you can't even sail your proper course sometimes!  Its not right. 

It would be impossible to race without some form of 16.1 .  

 

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25 minutes ago, sfigone said:

That "can't get enough speed" boat was getting BSP of twice the wind speed in displacement mode.  I'm pretty sure it could have taken that speed down wind and still beaten a lot of displacement boats flying spinnakers.

Apples, oranges, whatever. If you can't see the humor of it all, well just stick to numbers indeed.

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5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

I copped a fair bit of flack for having a go at you Mozzy. As someone who was a content producer I take copyright very seriously, and even litigated more than once to protect my own content. That said, I unfairly maligned you, and do take it back, and sincerely, and unreservedly apologize.

 

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3 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Of tangential relevance but perhaps amusing to those who remember her, Marian Martin, without a by-your-leave, once lifted one of my better-written posts verbatim and passed it off as hers in her newsletter. I was then vehemently accused on SAAC by multiple people of passing off her content as my own. After a while, she reluctantly fessed up.

I still miss her.

Marian martin---She died before the big dogzilla/alinghi match- Ernesto Bertarelli must had been paying BYM to be so fawning.

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26 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

It would be impossible to race without some form of 16.1 .  

 

Fair enough.  But the problem is that the measurement is too precise. With currently technology we know if you change course by 1° so rule 16.1 kicks in.  Thats just silly. A little weather helm into a puff will alter course 1° unintentionally. 

Maybe change 16.1 to read that a course change is only a course change if it exceeds 10° or something like that. 

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1 minute ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

Fair enough.  But the problem is that the measurement is too precise. With currently technology we know if you change course by 1° so rule 16.1 kicks in.  Thats just silly. A little weather helm into a puff will alter course 1° unintentionally. 

Maybe change 16.1 to read that a course change is only a course change if it exceeds 10° or something like that. 

Hasn't the biggest problem with 16.1 been the lack of objectivity of 'room to keep clear'? Wouldn't it be even worse if we ever thought about loosening it up when the boats are going 40 knots not to mention the danger in these foils sticking out at head level? 

Personally I like the idea of freeing up the boats to seek penalties through exerting their rights and potentially hunting but I would hate to see rules controversies being the discussion of the day or people getting maimed.  

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9 hours ago, jaysper said:

Well I hope you are right.

But also hope this board doesn't turn feral against the Italians here like it did against oracle in 2013 and 2017.

Not a chance, everyone loves the Italians. Courage and heart in abundance. Classy competitors and a most worthy COR. And they even managed to put manners on the ginger......:lol: 

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An intriguing day’s racing. LR won both starts but lost both races. There were mistakes made by both teams.

LR can win races but they need to win the start, sail flawlessly, and have the luck go their way. ETNZ are faster and getting better at making that pay. It’s a tough task now for LR to win four races before ETNZ win another two.

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1 hour ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

Quite simply remove rule 16.1.  The ROW boat should have the ROW to sail where they please. The GW boat should have the onus of keeping clear.   

Remember, back in 2017 there were specific rules that ALLOWED for hunting!!!  It was written into the rules that you were allowed to bear away upto 90° off true wind for the sole purpose of engaging your opponent.   Hunting and forcing penalties was encouraged. 

Now, the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction.  Now you can't hunt. Okay.  But, also as the ROW vessel you can't even sail your proper course sometimes!  Its not right. 

Give me a break. Have you really thought that through? 16.1 was NOT switched off in 2017 but 16.2 was

However it is still deleted in 2021-24

You are right the give way boat has the onus to keep clear but the right of way boat has the onus of giving it room to keep clear.

So.... 'hunting' is still allowed BUT when a right of way boat changes course it shall still allow the give way boat the 'room' to keep clear. Remove that and you remove the basic principle that sailing is a non-contact sport. It's not bumper cars you know.

What Spithill did was he came up when INEOS had nowhere to go - where do YOU think they could go? - , LRPP were attempting to deny INEOS the room they were entitled to do to keep clear.

Anyway, it is a moot point because it was a 'swing and a miss' by about a metre and the transponders on these boats are accurate to 2cm.

If the give way boat is "doing everything it can" to avoid contact and you don't give it room to do so it is all ON YOU.

And if as a right of way boat, you force a collision that causes damage or injury you break 14 and THAT IS NOT a simple one tack or one gybe penalty. (I am assuming Match Racing and therefore Appendix C)   

And if you deny that room and are thought to have deliberately caused a collision resulting in damage and/or injury? Well you are heading into RRS 2 territory. 

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Just now, marlowe said:

An intriguing day’s racing. LR won both starts but lost both races. There were mistakes made by both teams.

LR can win races but they need to win the start, sail flawlessly, and have the luck go their way. ETNZ are faster and getting better at making that pay. It’s a tough task now for LR to win four races before ETNZ win another two.

I agree. And it seems that ETNZ are figuring out how to go faster and how to pass. Are the starts now becoming less important? 

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I thought it was a masterful display of light wind sailing by Burling. Perhaps no surprise given his background and the fact that he has done more than twice the amount of time on the water helming compared to Jimmy or Cecco.

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1 hour ago, strider470 said:

Tonight it could be potentially be game over.

RYS and RNZYS representetives should be ready for the new challenge, just in case. Any news?
Asking for a friend. (Very scaramantic, those things normally brings some bad luck :D :D  )

Burn the witch! Burn the witch!

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17 minutes ago, Paddywackery said:

Not a chance, everyone loves the Italians. Courage and heart in abundance. Classy competitors and a most worthy COR. And they even managed to put manners on the ginger......:lol: 

yes, its amazing how they managed to stop shit dribbling out of his mouth without stuffing a gimp ball in  it.:lol:

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So the Kiwis are flying away.

My two cents:

  • Te Rehutai is faster than Luna Rossa, not by huge numbers, but faster
  • Kiwis sailed consistently during all races, team Prada a few mistakes more
  • LR now climbing mount Everest to win the cup

Having said so, anything is possible.

We (Italians) hope!

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7 minutes ago, Paddywackery said:

I agree. And it seems that ETNZ are figuring out how to go faster and how to pass. Are the starts now becoming less important? 

I think there's a good argument to be made that etnz may not have gotten past in race 7 if LR had kept a tight cover and race 8 ....

So I think its still crucial to win the starts.

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42 minutes ago, chocoa said:

Marian martin---She died before the big dogzilla/alinghi match- Ernesto Bertarelli must had been paying BYM to be so fawning.

Stuff and nonsense. She just loved to be contrarian. 

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1 hour ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

Yep.  And the precedent has already been set. The RC can't start applying the rules differently now.  But yeah, I'd like to see a change for the next AC. Maybe a DSQ boundary 60 meters outside the racecourse boundary line.

They could have a double zone like you suggest. Or, like I suggested in the video just re-enter the course where you left it at the same or lower speed? Wouldn't even need a penalty then. 

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19 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I think there's a good argument to be made that etnz may not have gotten past in race 7 if LR had kept a tight cover and race 8 ....

So I think its still crucial to win the starts.

ETNZ needed a smaller than perhaps ideal jib to extenuate the 'lower and faster mode' plus LR arguably were a jib size too big making it again a bit harder to match the kiwi fast and low mode. Plus a 11 degree shift. And the tack was very offset giving ETNZ maximum runway. So, a lot of elements had to fall in place for ETNZ to make the pass.

I've thought in previous races LR have been pretty good at placing their 'face' tack either directly in front or slightly to leeward. To protect against against ETNZ engaging a low mode as much as it is to give dirty air. But they missed two of those tacks in race 1 and it allowed ETNZ to foot off in to clear air on those occasions.  

The starts will still be crucial. 

Was this a proper sea breeze today? Wind patterns seemed far less table than what we've seen in March so far. 

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11 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

They could have a double zone like you suggest. Or, like I suggested in the video just re-enter the course where you left it at the same or lower speed? Wouldn't even need a penalty then. 

How about a 360 for tagging the border, and a 720 for going outside,  immediately on re entering the course, and if you tag, get in the way of the other boat, or leave the course again during the penalty turn, you have to repeat the penalty?  I suppose you’d have to mandate entering the course where you left it, subject to the same rules as the penalty turns,  but all those judging boats out there should be useful for marking that?

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28 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

They could have a double zone like you suggest. Or, like I suggested in the video just re-enter the course where you left it at the same or lower speed? Wouldn't even need a penalty then. 

The same speed thing would be difficult, and weird.  

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29 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Or, like I suggested in the video just re-enter the course where you left it at the same or lower speed? Wouldn't even need a penalty then. 

I mean that is a penalty :lol::lol:

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5 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

I mean that is a penalty :lol::lol:

You’re running rings around him logically!

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True, wouldn't need a further penalty. Although, is just making you restart the course where you left it really a penalty? It's just completing the course. Like undoing a mark rounding if you go the wrong way. Not really a penalty, just doing back and correcting an error?

I'm not sure how difficult same speed and further up the course would be. No harder than having the umpire tell you how many meters you have to kill via radio. All the yachts will have tracks displayed on the tactical app and it wouldn't take too much to flag up the speed you were doing at the when you broke the barrier. 

I think it would be pretty harsh if just a wing tip went out by 2cm though. 

Obviously rules are set for this cup, and the teams now have to play by them. But it could leave the umpire in a tricky spot shoulda  team who did this then make a further overtake later in the race. 

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2 hours ago, AnotherSailor said:

Apples, oranges, whatever. If you can't see the humor of it all, well just stick to numbers indeed.

Both things can be true - amazing that such expensive hi-tech boats are reaching back and forth; amazing that a non-foiling boat can go twice the wind speed at 6kn TWS.

 

 

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From the stern entry port cam of race one, the lee bow from LR on the second beat......the communication on LR leading up to this, wasn't really there. Jimmy made a hasty last second call to tack. TR then rolled over the top of them. A bit of vulnerability was exposed in their after guard setup there. 

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To me, the Americas Cup seems to be moving away from the "classic match racing" type racing to boat speed and playing the shifts. Especially the way the Kiwi's seem to be sailing. They seem to get ahead and forget about their opponent and play the shifts. 

Once the Kiwi's get ahead, they simply sail away and don't engage with LR. LR seem to still play the old school match racing game. I guess the way the Kiwi's do it, leaves the team open to far more risk than LR, but it seems to be the way the game is now going. Wonder how critical old school match racing tactics will become in the future?

Maybe the olympian type sailing technique will be the new style in the future, just press hard, put the bow down, keep going fast and sail the shifts, as opposed to sailing your opponent?

If so, it may make sailors like Jimmy, Dean and Ben Ainslie redundant (on the boat anyway) and see the younger generation of apparent wind/ moth sailors like Burling and Tuke, and Nathan Outteridge.

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16 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

IMG_1534.thumb.JPG.1f06431b29707a4c3abf1f6ac72b8331.JPG

So true Laser. I read somewhere (many years ago) that the 1st defence added $4Bn to the NZL economy. That is exactly why the city and country governments support ETNZ.

4Bn @ 10% tax, no lets make it 5% =  200m in tax from businesses and individuals. That is a pretty good ROI in anybody's books

Slight correction though. The One Hundred POUND Cup was bought from Garrards (often called the Queen's jewellers) and was owned by the Royal Yacht Squadron. Even the wikipedia entry erroneously calls it the One Hundred Guinea Cup and suggests pounds and guineas were the same. A Guinea was actually One Pound One Shilling (1.05 Pounds)

The story i heard was that when it got to America someone thought they were the same and it has been miscalled all over the place since.

I wonder how many billions have been spent trying to win a trophy valued at 100 Pounds (when purchased) since.

Many trophies from that era were grand and expensive. The Shanghai Cup cost $433 (in 1876) although I am not sure of the currency or value of those $433. It is now one of the premier trophies of the Cardiff Bay Yacht Club in Wales.

 

 

 

SYC History from 1873 - 04.JPG

I know what your saying, but at that time the rich used Guineas not Pounds and it's value against the pound fluctuated, in the same way as the Franc or Mark. It was only standardised as £1 and 1s later.

Much the same as a Fathom at 6 feet, rather than fingertip to fingertip.

Don't deny history, just to make it fit the world you live in.

 

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3 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

From the stern entry port cam of race one, the lee bow from LR on the second beat......the communication on LR leading up to this, wasn't really there. Jimmy made a hasty last second call to tack. TR then rolled over the top of them. A bit of vulnerability was exposed in their after guard setup there. 

Jimbo expects to win. He's blind to defeat. There's no second, only winning. When suddenly a threat comes and tickles his backside, he panics and makes pressurised mistakes. It's beautiful and predictable. 

This is why, when Emirates Team New Zealand win, they win by a lot and when they lose, it's by a lot less. 

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Again from the stern cams....LR has "aero mode"....where the grinders have to crouch down......they do this for their high mode.....not the most efficient position for the grinders though.....

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

To me, the Americas Cup seems to be moving away from the "classic match racing" type racing to boat speed and playing the shifts. Especially the way the Kiwi's seem to be sailing. They seem to get ahead and forget about their opponent and play the shifts. 

Once the Kiwi's get ahead, they simply sail away and don't engage with LR. LR seem to still play the old school match racing game. I guess the way the Kiwi's do it, leaves the team open to far more risk than LR, but it seems to be the way the game is now going. Wonder how critical old school match racing tactics will become in the future?

Maybe the olympian type sailing technique will be the new style in the future, just press hard, put the bow down, keep going fast and sail the shifts, as opposed to sailing your opponent?

So no change since 1983 when I first watched an AC race. Far more match racing this time than 2017 or 2013, none in the 2 DOG matches.

I don't believe this regatta is over yet. The boats and crews are well matched and whilst I want a NZ win, Italy are not out yet by a long way.

 

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4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

To me, the Americas Cup seems to be moving away from the "classic match racing" type racing to boat speed and playing the shifts. Especially the way the Kiwi's seem to be sailing. They seem to get ahead and forget about their opponent and play the shifts. 

Once the Kiwi's get ahead, they simply sail away and don't engage with LR. LR seem to still play the old school match racing game. I guess the way the Kiwi's do it, leaves the team open to far more risk than LR, but it seems to be the way the game is now going. Wonder how critical old school match racing tactics will become in the future?

Maybe the olympian type sailing technique will be the new style in the future, just press hard, put the bow down, keep going fast and sail the shifts, as opposed to sailing your opponent?

If so, it may make sailors like Jimmy, Dean and Ben Ainslie redundant (on the boat anyway) and see the younger generation of apparent wind/ moth sailors like Burling and Tuke, and Nathan Outteridge.

Nothing new here - we have seen plenty of AC's where one boat had better straight line speed - back in the 12's, DC was delighted to hide in the spectator fleet during the restart when he knew he had a faster boat.  Watching the first 6 races in the 75's - seems like some match racing moves are more powerful like the tight cover, and some are less powerful like the dial-up.

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3 hours ago, strider470 said:

Tonight it could be potentially be game over.

RYS and RNZYS representetives should be ready for the new challenge, just in case. Any news?
Asking for a friend. (Very scaramantic, those things normally brings some bad luck :D :D  )

I’d be surprised if it’s over today. A fair amount of bad luck hit LR yesterday. Last cup LR was made COR and quite frankly they deserved to be COR by a wide margin. If we win the cup today I’d still would want LR to be COR again. As for RYS being made COR, I don’t think they have done anything to deserve the role. 

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19 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

True, wouldn't need a further penalty. Although, is just making you restart the course where you left it really a penalty? It's just completing the course. Like undoing a mark rounding if you go the wrong way. Not really a penalty, just doing back and correcting an error?

I'm not sure how difficult same speed and further up the course would be. No harder than having the umpire tell you how many meters you have to kill via radio. All the yachts will have tracks displayed on the tactical app and it wouldn't take too much to flag up the speed you were doing at the when you broke the barrier. 

I think it would be pretty harsh if just a wing tip went out by 2cm though. 

Obviously rules are set for this cup, and the teams now have to play by them. But it could leave the umpire in a tricky spot shoulda  team who did this then make a further overtake later in the race. 

Its the "same or lower" speed part that makes it a penalty really, if you un wind a mark rounding and re round you're not constrained in how fast you can do it, but its a pedantic point (sorry); I do agree that you need that if you allow re entry to prevent professional fouls, and that there is room for improvement in the penalty stakes.

 

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1 hour ago, 45Roller said:

Mozzys take:

 

So was it JS’s fault they fell off their foils? Never under 28 and then they tack under 28...I know it’s minimal but still! Any data on the TWS leading into the tack and then straight after the tack?

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If the Kiwis win this thing, there will only be 4 guys in the world who have won an Olympic Gold medal, won and defended the AC successfully, and they're all Kiwi's. Russell Coutts, Pete and Blair and Joe Sullivan. Pretty amazing achievement for NZ.

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Just now, **ONTOIT** said:

So was it JS’s fault they fell off their foils? Never under 28 and then they tack under 28...I know it’s minimal but still! Any data on the TWS leading into the tack and then straight after the tack?

Its sure looking that way. FB knew they were on the edge and Jimmy tacked anyway.  Why damnit?!?!?  Just bare away, build some speed and tack when you're confident. Hell, bare away, GYBE, and head back if you need to.  You're 2,000 meters and 4 minutes in the lead.  The more I look at this the worse it gets. 

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3 minutes ago, **ONTOIT** said:

So was it JS’s fault they fell off their foils? Never under 28 and then they tack under 28...I know it’s minimal but still! Any data on the TWS leading into the tack and then straight after the tack?

@dorox's incredible site has all the info, synced with the broadcast videos, I have gone through the data to see what was happening at that time

https://ac36.herokuapp.com/map

 

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1 hour ago, Clapham said:

I thought it was a masterful display of light wind sailing by Burling. Perhaps no surprise given his background and the fact that he has done more than twice the amount of time on the water helming compared to Jimmy or Cecco.

My take of the day in this regard. I don't want to deny that PB is normally extremely good, but yesterday I was not particularly impressed by his performance, TBH. He lost both starts. In race 7 very good overall sailing from ETNZ, they could manage to pass LR thanks to better boat speed (amplified by LR picking the wrong jib), a massive wind shift at the mark and a very well executed JK. I have to mention ETNZ showed very good positioning and tactic decision to take advantage of the favourable situation, kudos for this. In race 8 ETNZ probably were not optimal because they picked the wrong jib, but PB fell off the foils for a huge error of his (being greedy at the cross? They were gaining downwind on LR at the moment) that almost costed the race. LR made the same error (falling off the foils, this time not forced, but in less wind and at a mark rounding). At the end of the day, ETNZ won race 8 because they had a puff over the required 8 kts or so, necessary to take off, in less time than LR, staying in displacement half time. So PB just paid less for the very same error of his opponents, no magic tricks here.
This is why I wouldn't call this a masterful display of light wind sailing by PB. Not yesterday at least.
PS It's Checco ;) (De Cecco is the famous Italian pasta brand)

 

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4 minutes ago, strider470 said:

My take of the day in this regard. I don't want to deny that PB is normally extremely good, but yesterday I was not particularly impressed by his performance, TBH. He lost both starts. In race 7 very good overall sailing from ETNZ, they could manage to pass LR thanks to better boat speed (amplified by LR picking the wrong jib), a massive wind shift at the mark and a very well executed JK. I have to mention ETNZ showed very good positioning and tactic decision to take advantage of the favourable situation, kudos for this. In race 8 ETNZ probably were not optimal because they picked the wrong jib, but PB fell off the foils for a huge error of his (being greedy at the cross? They were gaining downwind on LR at the moment) that almost costed the race. LR made the same error (falling off the foils, this time not forced, but in less wind and at a mark rounding). At the end of the day, ETNZ won race 8 because they had a puff over the required 8 kts or so, necessary to take off, in less time than LR, staying in displacement half time. So PB just paid less for the very same error of his opponents, no magic tricks here.
This is why I wouldn't call this a masterful display of light wind sailing by PB. Not yesterday at least.
PS It's Checco ;) (De Cecco is the famous Italian pasta brand)

 

One undeniable fact is that PB is constantly losing to JS in the starts.  The fact that ETNZ won both races yesterday seems to gloss over that fact. If ETNZ had lost both races yesterday, the punters on this forum would be significantly less forgiving . 

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I don't know if LR can recover from losing two races where they won the starts. 

I hope they do, but hard to imagine since they need all the starts won they can get.

It was incredibly frustrating to watch the boats wallow around not knowing exactly what was wrong. at least in the old boats we could all sympathize having been there and knowing what was causing the problem but these spaceships.... no clue.

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3 minutes ago, mako23 said:

One undeniable fact is that PB is constantly losing to JS in the starts.  The fact that ETNZ won both races yesterday seems to gloss over that fact. If ETNZ had lost both races yesterday, the punters on this forum would be significantly less forgiving . 

In his defence must be said that match race starting is not how PB grew up. And probably, as someone said, TR is less easy to manouvre in tight space due to small foils. He behaved better than Ben Ainslie, who is considered a specialist.

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33 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I’d be surprised if it’s over today. A fair amount of bad luck hit LR yesterday. Last cup LR was made COR and quite frankly they deserved to be COR by a wide margin. If we win the cup today I’d still would want LR to be COR again. As for RYS being made COR, I don’t think they have done anything to deserve the role. 

Nonetheless they must be ready or, if ETNZ wins both today (hopefully not ;)), they will find in their pocket an unexpected challenge from Ernesto Bertarelli, in no time  :D

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1 minute ago, strider470 said:

In his defence must be said that match race starting is not how PB grew up. And probably, as someone said, TR is less easy to manouvre in tight space due to small foils. He behaved better than Ben Ainslie, who is considered a specialist.

I’d rather have PB over BA he’s a lot better. I’m willing to accept that LR is more manoeuvrable than TR. But he still should be doing better. Some of his losses in the start box are large. Quite frankly JS is kicking PB arse by a wide margin. “IF” we successfully defend the cup PB needs to be sent to the match racing circuit. 

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22 minutes ago, strider470 said:

My take of the day in this regard. I don't want to deny that PB is normally extremely good, but yesterday I was not particularly impressed by his performance, TBH. He lost both starts. In race 7 very good overall sailing from ETNZ, they could manage to pass LR thanks to better boat speed (amplified by LR picking the wrong jib), a massive wind shift at the mark and a very well executed JK. I have to mention ETNZ showed very good positioning and tactic decision to take advantage of the favourable situation, kudos for this. In race 8 ETNZ probably were not optimal because they picked the wrong jib, but PB fell off the foils for a huge error of his (being greedy at the cross? They were gaining downwind on LR at the moment) that almost costed the race. LR made the same error (falling off the foils, this time not forced, but in less wind and at a mark rounding). At the end of the day, ETNZ won race 8 because they had a puff over the required 8 kts or so, necessary to take off, in less time than LR, staying in displacement half time. So PB just paid less for the very same error of his opponents, no magic tricks here.
This is why I wouldn't call this a masterful display of light wind sailing by PB. Not yesterday at least.
PS It's Checco ;) (De Cecco is the famous Italian pasta brand)

 

Someone posted this on FB. LR had approximately 7-8 knots for their rounding, where ETNZ had approximately 6.5-7 knots. The problem for LR was their high slow upwind mode became disadvantageous. They tacked on lay line thinking they’d get round, where ETNZ over stood by quite a long way, giving them a much better angle coming into the mark rounding.

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Someone posted this on FB. LR had approximately 7-8 knots for their rounding, where ETNZ had approximately 6.5-7 knots. The problem for LR was their high slow upwind mode became disadvantageous. They tacked on lay line thinking they’d get round, where ETNZ over stood by quite a long way, giving them a much better angle coming into the mark rounding.

Go figure why. They could see LR sitting hopeless there... And they took extra precautions. If you watch better, LR as well went over the layline, but not enough, and then of course they didn't perform the manouvre very well. (screwed up)

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3 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Nonetheless they must be ready or, if ETNZ wins both today (hopefully not ;)), they will find in their pocket an unexpected challenge from Ernesto Bertarelli, in no time  :D

The thought of EB trying to put his hands on the cup makes me feel sick. If LR wins the cup and makes him COR I believe they will come to regret the decision. 

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1 minute ago, strider470 said:

Go figure why. They could see LR sitting hopeless there... And they took extra precautions. If you watch better, LR as well went over the layline, but not enough, and then of course they didn't perform the manouvre very well. (screwed up)

I think ETNZ have always done it in light winds, infact it’s a common occurrence with the Kiwis, much wider, faster angles. Yes they took precautions but so should LR seeing as the Kiwis were parked and the fact that it was widely known even among the commentary team that the wind was softening at the top of the course.

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42 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I’d be surprised if it’s over today. A fair amount of bad luck hit LR yesterday. Last cup LR was made COR and quite frankly they deserved to be COR by a wide margin. If we win the cup today I’d still would want LR to be COR again. As for RYS being made COR, I don’t think they have done anything to deserve the role. 

LR was not even in the last cup. They were accepted as CoR because they had supported ETNZ's 2017 challenge.

The RNZYC and ETNZ will have talked to prospective challengers and agreed to one as a CoR by now. If it is RYS/Ineos it will be because they have agreed with NZ on several important features of the next cup....choice of boat, rules, venues etc. 

It is possible it will be LR again......but all will depend on the Challenger who shares the same vision for the next cup as TNZ.   

LR are rumored to be working with Alllinghi for a CoR. But its all speculation.

 

FWIW, I want TNZ to win the cup but I want LR to win tonights races :)

 

 

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ETNZ put the wrong Gib up for the second race, that was very silly I could see 2 Knts less at top mark and they should have seen that also, gave trouble in the start and nearly cost the race. 

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8 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

I think ETNZ have always done it in light winds, infact it’s a common occurrence with the Kiwis, much wider, faster angles. Yes they took precautions but so should LR seeing as the Kiwis were parked and the fact that it was widely known even among the commentary team that the wind was softening at the top of the course.

They did, sadly it was not enough. When ETNZ arrived, seeing LR son in trouble, they doubled that margin.

LR.JPG.09157bfff002251a4996e7a1bfe22f78.JPG

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I have figured I would chime in after a few days.  The sun is setting on this Cup cycle.  The wind gods have spoken - the Cup will remain in Auckland.

The Challenger usually either wins or collapses in the following manner:

1.  Starts series off strong  - sucker punches Defender in face since Defender is not battle hardened. (2003, 2007, 2013, 2017, 2021)

2.  The next step is critical.  The Challenger must continue to beat the ever loving shit out of the Defender repeatedly before the Defender understands what is happening (Alinghi 2003, ETNZ 2017).  If the Challenger doesn’t crush the Defender like Dolph Lundgren crushed Rocky Balboa, the Defender (Alinghi 2007, Oracle 20130) will get their legs underneath them.

3.  Challenger will begin leading races but eventually relinquishes the lead to the  Defender (2007, 2013, 2021).

4. The next step which will happen today (weather dependent).  The Defender will absolutely crush the feeble attempts to challenge the king and the throne.  There will be no prisoners and dominance will be reasserted an all the pundits will spew the same trite cliche “the faster boat always wins” (2007, 2013, 2021)

Wash, rinse, repeat.

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Has anyone of you subscribed to this newsletter?
https://www.sailjuice.com/categories/essential

Today's issue:

The AC75s are rewriting the rules of match racing in the America’s Cup. In today’s second match, one of the most bizarre yet thrilling duels in the 170-year history of the event, the Kiwis were their usual relaxed, methodical selves as they chomped down on the Italians’ lead on the first downwind leg.

As Te Rehutai closed to just 60 metres behind Luna Rossa, Pete Burling and Co. threw the boat into a routine foiling gybe and promptly fell off the foils. Initially the TV commentators wondered if they’d gybed into a hole, but that’s very unlike the ETNZ brains trust of Burling, Tuke and Ashby.

What seems more likely is they gybed through the dirty backwash of Luna Rossa’s sails which stalled the flow over Te Rehutai’s sailplan and brought the six-ton flying machine down to the surface.

Six-time match racing World Champion Ian Williams observed on Facebook: “The problem is that they (ETNZ) came out of the gybe so high they sailed back up to the dirty air. Maybe they had to to keep the hull up, but I would have expected them to be able keep ahead of the dirty air if they’d stayed lower, maybe with windward foil down.”

Ian has a point, and maybe next time in a similar scenario ETNZ would ‘go Eagle’ and put both foils down through gybe as an added insurance policy to stay in the air. ETNZ - and Luna Rossa for that matter - are learning on the fly. Every manoeuvre adds to their knowledge of how to sail an AC75 to its optimum.

What happened to ETNZ today reminds me of what befell Luna Rossa a couple of days ago when they gybed around and fell off the foils, again possibly caused by sailing back through their own backwash. Increasingly it looks like ‘the hook’, the traditional method of diving to leeward of your opponent and forcing them towards the start line sooner than they would like, doesn’t work in AC75s. Maybe the dirty air is too strong to make this a viable attacking move for the chasing boat in the pre-start.

As for ETNZ falling off the foils in race 8, it looked like game over to the untrained eye. But up in the sky, David ‘Freddie’ Carr was calling the patchiness of the breeze at the top of the course. When Luna Rossa mistimed (only very slightly) the lowering of their starboard foil as they tacked on to port, the Italians dropped to the water and were sitting ducks as the rejuvenated and extremely wary Kiwis scythed their way past from 2km behind to 2km in front. “Better to be lucky than good,” as Burling commented afterwards, tipping his hat to the bad luck of the Italians.

As race 7 showed, when we finally witnessed the first passing move of the 36th America’s Cup, Te Rehutai will be hard to stop if the breeze gets consistently over 12 knots.

It was expected to be windier today than it proved. If that happens again, and the stronger wind fails to materialise, the Italians have a chance of turning the tables. If the breeze kicks in, as Nathan Outteridge puts it, the Italians will have to get ahead at the start and try to stick their elbows out as wide as they can. It seems like there is some truth after all to the much-vaunted rumour that the Kiwis have a stupid-fast boat.

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2 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

LR was not even in the last cup. They were accepted as CoR because they had supported ETNZ's 2017 challenge.

Which is why they deserved to be COR  from a biased kiwi point of view. Why wouldn’t we make them COR

The RNZYC and ETNZ will have talked to prospective challengers and agreed to one as a CoR by now. If it is RYS/Ineos it will be because they have agreed with NZ on several important features of the next cup....choice of boat, rules, venues etc. 

They did nothing to help us out so screw them. From a Kiwi  point of view we should give COR to our mates and friends or people who have  helped us out. Even though there has been tension between LR and ETNZ in recent months, we from a kiwi point of view should also remember the close relationship we have had with them over a decade. 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, rh3000 said:

Distracted by the on-water drama, we may have missed the off-water moves!

https://docs.google.com/a/acofficials.org/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=YWNvZmZpY2lhbHMub3JnfGFjMzYtb2ZmaWNpYWwtbm90aWNlYm9hcmR8Z3g6NjFmZWRiNDgxMGVhYzllYQ

Basically LR wanting access to TV Control Rooms and to put an observer onboard Ian Murray's boat to keep him honest about wind limits. Talk about counter-productive! Ian Murray is the last person you want to try and remind pf the AC33 race control boat shenanigans!

LR might have screwed the pooch with the officials over this one.

It was Harold Bennett as PRO in AC33.

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55 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

If the Kiwis win this thing, there will only be 4 guys in the world who have won an Olympic Gold medal, won and defended the AC successfully, and they're all Kiwi's. Russell Coutts, Pete and Blair and Joe Sullivan. Pretty amazing achievement for NZ.

I’m not into the whole nationalism thing. NZ didnt win anything, 4 men did.

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15 minutes ago, toad said:

I’m not into the whole nationalism thing. NZ didnt win anything, 4 men did.

I too am not a fan of nationalism -  but in this case those 4 men are a product of a system and that system is a national one.  In the same way you can't deny that America put a man on the moon, or Brazil won the world cup 5 times, those guys that have done that have been a product of a national system.  It's not a coincidence.  

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29 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Has anyone of you subscribed to this newsletter?
https://www.sailjuice.com/categories/essential

Today's issue:

The AC75s are rewriting the rules of match racing in the America’s Cup. In today’s second match, one of the most bizarre yet thrilling duels in the 170-year history of the event, the Kiwis were their usual relaxed, methodical selves as they chomped down on the Italians’ lead on the first downwind leg.

As Te Rehutai closed to just 60 metres behind Luna Rossa, Pete Burling and Co. threw the boat into a routine foiling gybe and promptly fell off the foils. Initially the TV commentators wondered if they’d gybed into a hole, but that’s very unlike the ETNZ brains trust of Burling, Tuke and Ashby.

What seems more likely is they gybed through the dirty backwash of Luna Rossa’s sails which stalled the flow over Te Rehutai’s sailplan and brought the six-ton flying machine down to the surface.

Six-time match racing World Champion Ian Williams observed on Facebook: “The problem is that they (ETNZ) came out of the gybe so high they sailed back up to the dirty air. Maybe they had to to keep the hull up, but I would have expected them to be able keep ahead of the dirty air if they’d stayed lower, maybe with windward foil down.”

Ian has a point, and maybe next time in a similar scenario ETNZ would ‘go Eagle’ and put both foils down through gybe as an added insurance policy to stay in the air. ETNZ - and Luna Rossa for that matter - are learning on the fly. Every manoeuvre adds to their knowledge of how to sail an AC75 to its optimum.

What happened to ETNZ today reminds me of what befell Luna Rossa a couple of days ago when they gybed around and fell off the foils, again possibly caused by sailing back through their own backwash. Increasingly it looks like ‘the hook’, the traditional method of diving to leeward of your opponent and forcing them towards the start line sooner than they would like, doesn’t work in AC75s. Maybe the dirty air is too strong to make this a viable attacking move for the chasing boat in the pre-start.

As for ETNZ falling off the foils in race 8, it looked like game over to the untrained eye. But up in the sky, David ‘Freddie’ Carr was calling the patchiness of the breeze at the top of the course. When Luna Rossa mistimed (only very slightly) the lowering of their starboard foil as they tacked on to port, the Italians dropped to the water and were sitting ducks as the rejuvenated and extremely wary Kiwis scythed their way past from 2km behind to 2km in front. “Better to be lucky than good,” as Burling commented afterwards, tipping his hat to the bad luck of the Italians.

As race 7 showed, when we finally witnessed the first passing move of the 36th America’s Cup, Te Rehutai will be hard to stop if the breeze gets consistently over 12 knots.

It was expected to be windier today than it proved. If that happens again, and the stronger wind fails to materialise, the Italians have a chance of turning the tables. If the breeze kicks in, as Nathan Outteridge puts it, the Italians will have to get ahead at the start and try to stick their elbows out as wide as they can. It seems like there is some truth after all to the much-vaunted rumour that the Kiwis have a stupid-fast boat.

Very interesting Renn, thank you for posting.

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That second race on the TV looked terrible but out on the water it was so much easier to see the shifts. All the sailors onboard our boat saw when LR was at the bottom of the upwind leg that the top of the course had glassed off. There a huge flags on yachts all around the course and the one up by the top gate had just dropped completely. We knew that if LR tried to go through the gate they were going to drop off the foils.

We concluded while they were halfway up the beat the should reach back and forward on the left side of the course to stay on the foils and wait for the breeze to fill.  Now its easy to make that call while on anchor and not doing 30+ knots. But I think that race was winable for them. They just needed to be patient and stay in the pressure until the wind filled in at the top gate. 

Jimmu nailed both those dtstts so full credit to him. 

Also course E is much better for spectator boats so hopefully they are racing there again. 

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1 hour ago, Salty Seacock said:

Jimbo expects to win. He's blind to defeat. There's no second, only winning. When suddenly a threat comes and tickles his backside, he panics and makes pressurised mistakes. It's beautiful and predictable. 

This is why, when Emirates Team New Zealand win, they win by a lot and when they lose, it's by a lot less. 

Think that might explain the luff attempt just after the start in R1 too?

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38 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Has anyone of you subscribed to this newsletter?
https://www.sailjuice.com/categories/essential

Today's issue:

The AC75s are rewriting the rules of match racing in the America’s Cup. In today’s second match, one of the most bizarre yet thrilling duels in the 170-year history of the event, the Kiwis were their usual relaxed, methodical selves as they chomped down on the Italians’ lead on the first downwind leg.

As Te Rehutai closed to just 60 metres behind Luna Rossa, Pete Burling and Co. threw the boat into a routine foiling gybe and promptly fell off the foils. Initially the TV commentators wondered if they’d gybed into a hole, but that’s very unlike the ETNZ brains trust of Burling, Tuke and Ashby.

What seems more likely is they gybed through the dirty backwash of Luna Rossa’s sails which stalled the flow over Te Rehutai’s sailplan and brought the six-ton flying machine down to the surface.

Six-time match racing World Champion Ian Williams observed on Facebook: “The problem is that they (ETNZ) came out of the gybe so high they sailed back up to the dirty air. Maybe they had to to keep the hull up, but I would have expected them to be able keep ahead of the dirty air if they’d stayed lower, maybe with windward foil down.”

Ian has a point, and maybe next time in a similar scenario ETNZ would ‘go Eagle’ and put both foils down through gybe as an added insurance policy to stay in the air. ETNZ - and Luna Rossa for that matter - are learning on the fly. Every manoeuvre adds to their knowledge of how to sail an AC75 to its optimum.

What happened to ETNZ today reminds me of what befell Luna Rossa a couple of days ago when they gybed around and fell off the foils, again possibly caused by sailing back through their own backwash. Increasingly it looks like ‘the hook’, the traditional method of diving to leeward of your opponent and forcing them towards the start line sooner than they would like, doesn’t work in AC75s. Maybe the dirty air is too strong to make this a viable attacking move for the chasing boat in the pre-start.

As for ETNZ falling off the foils in race 8, it looked like game over to the untrained eye. But up in the sky, David ‘Freddie’ Carr was calling the patchiness of the breeze at the top of the course. When Luna Rossa mistimed (only very slightly) the lowering of their starboard foil as they tacked on to port, the Italians dropped to the water and were sitting ducks as the rejuvenated and extremely wary Kiwis scythed their way past from 2km behind to 2km in front. “Better to be lucky than good,” as Burling commented afterwards, tipping his hat to the bad luck of the Italians.

As race 7 showed, when we finally witnessed the first passing move of the 36th America’s Cup, Te Rehutai will be hard to stop if the breeze gets consistently over 12 knots.

It was expected to be windier today than it proved. If that happens again, and the stronger wind fails to materialise, the Italians have a chance of turning the tables. If the breeze kicks in, as Nathan Outteridge puts it, the Italians will have to get ahead at the start and try to stick their elbows out as wide as they can. It seems like there is some truth after all to the much-vaunted rumour that the Kiwis have a stupid-fast boat.

So instead of making the fateful gybe in the last race, PB had worn ship (aaarh, for those land lubbers out there, that be coming up to a tack and then falling off, aaaar...) ?  Given the pic that Basillicus posted of where the crappy air goes off the leach for land sailers, that might have spaced out the bad air enough to punch though, since LR was going slow then anyway?  Hard to know how to reason that one out.....  these beasties turn awfully fast.  Would staying up on foils be possible with that, or worth the extra time?

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25 minutes ago, aucklander said:

I too am not a fan of nationalism -  but in this case those 4 men are a product of a system and that system is a national one.  In the same way you can't deny that America put a man on the moon, or Brazil won the world cup 5 times, those guys that have done that have been a product of a national system.  It's not a coincidence.  

Fair comment

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4 hours ago, chocoa said:

Massive respect for the grinders on both boats for leaving it all on the handles in that epic second race.

absolutely, there was a shot at the end which looked like a nz grinder having a wee spit. They had heart rate monitors on, saw 3 of them were 180bpm plus at gate 3 already, but that was the only time it was shown. Shame the TVs etc can't show the massive physical effort being put in to sail these boats. 

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

I’d be surprised if it’s over today. A fair amount of bad luck hit LR yesterday. Last cup LR was made COR and quite frankly they deserved to be COR by a wide margin. If we win the cup today I’d still would want LR to be COR again. As for RYS being made COR, I don’t think they have done anything to deserve the role. 

It's nothing to do with, Deserving the role, It's about agreeing terms. LR and TNZ have been long time pals, but they've clearly fallen out. 

But anyone can issue a Challenge to the winning Yacht Club of the America's Cup. That is what the DOG says. That is what keeps the Cup different, and more Exciting from any other sporting event I know of.

The golden egg of the cup is that It's not like any other competition. Look how the Olympic Games are dying

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3 minutes ago, laser 173312 said:

But anyone can issue a Challenge to the winning Yacht Club of the America's Cup.

Not really any more. The new defender will be poised to immediately accept a challenge from the challenger of record they favour, one with whom they see eye to eye. At least they think they do.

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1 minute ago, laser 173312 said:

It's nothing to do with, Deserving the role, It's about agreeing terms.

Actually, there is no requirement to even agree to terms. First valid challenge (per the terms set by the DoG) counts. 

In reality, these days the COR and D do agree to terms ahead of time and proffer the challenge seconds after the match is won.

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Clearly we need to go back to 12 meters! Proper match racing. Nice polo shirts no helmets and scuba bottles in case the boat capsizes. Hour long races too.

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1 minute ago, dogwatch said:

 

Not really any more. The new defender will be poised to immediately accept a challenge from the challenger of record they favour, one with whom they see eye to eye. At least they think they do.

Yes I know every COR has been primed and ready with papers in hand since 1987. But did Mercury Bay deserve to challenge. I think The Royal Yacht Squadron has more right than anyone to do so.

The DOG is clear, any established Yacht Club can challenge. Provided they meet the other constraints.

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2 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Clearly we need to go back to 12 meters! Proper match racing. Nice polo shirts no helmets and scuba bottles in case the boat capsizes. Hour long races too.

I watched some races from the 90s i think and the crew were smoking cigarettes and flicking the butts overboard during the race. The commentators were even laughing about it. Different times. 

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9 minutes ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

Actually, there is no requirement to even agree to terms. First valid challenge (per the terms set by the DoG) counts. 

In reality, these days the COR and D do agree to terms ahead of time and proffer the challenge seconds after the match is won.

Which is where I was coming from. It's an open secret that if (when?) TNZ win, RYS will hand over the challenge immediately. And no one else will get anyway near enough to butt in.

 

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16 minutes ago, laser 173312 said:

It's nothing to do with, Deserving the role, It's about agreeing terms. LR and TNZ have been long time pals, but they've clearly fallen out. 

But anyone can issue a Challenge to the winning Yacht Club of the America's Cup. That is what the DOG says. That is what keeps the Cup different, and more Exciting from any other sporting event I know of.

The golden egg of the cup is that It's not like any other competition. Look how the Olympic Games are dying

The olympics are dying because they are a political event, the drugs and the gear. To much gear- the true spirit of the olympics is track and field and a pair of shoes, also remember the gold tally? Fuck the olympics, its sucked the life out of local sailing with all the money heading into a small bunch of dinghy sailors. 

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