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AC36: The Match (6-15th March. Reserve days to the 21st)


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2 minutes ago, Regular Swimmer said:

That's not what I said.  Being able to get up again in a timely manner was lucky.  And you'll recall that both PB and BT admitted that their win was "lucky".

So you believe everything you hear at the presser?  Do you remember Burling telling the team when they were in displacement that "Boys this is a long race we are still in this"?

If you really think LR falling off the foils was bad luck over poor management then how do you explain the masterclass from ETNZ when they managed to foil through the same area in the same wind?
 

4 minutes ago, Regular Swimmer said:

Let's not get bogged down in which events were lucky and which weren't - I'm just saying that luck is a big part of the results we're seeing.  And you can't read any start box superiority into a 5:3 result because the sample size isn't large enough.  Stats 101.

So at best you can say the are even.  Which is probably the best you can expect given two high class sailors.  The same satistics as tossing a coin.

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And just to add to that record, Mozzy Sails contacted me direct to ask permission to use my photos and even offered to purchase some, by way of compensation. I am more than happy to contribute an

Just for the record, I contacted @erdb @MaxHugen @doroxand @weta27asked if they were happy me using images or graphs etc. I always try to credit them in the video and in the description as agreed.  I

I want to thank all the amazing people I had the pleasure to meet here on Sailing Anarchy during this America's Cup. It's a huge list. Brits, Irish, Kiwis, fellow Italians, French, Dutch, Americans, C

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1 minute ago, Amati said:

BRING ON THE WHOMPERS (tm North Sails 2021)!  For GODS SAKE!

yes bring on the WOMPER!   bow tube (with aero cap)   lets have some real sail handling   hopefully next time i think

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From the NZ Herald website

Race director 'very confident' in racing as Course C chosen for day six

 

The stadium course returns for America's Cup action with fans getting the opportunity to view the possibility of Team New Zealand claiming the Auld Mug from close up.

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/americas-cup-2021-race-director-very-confident-in-racing-as-course-c-chosen-for-day-six/KTQJRMTFZ7PU2ZG5HLPF3HO43A/

 

 

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2 minutes ago, RobG said:

I'm just looking for the rationale for the point that the drop back distance is taken from and how long they have to do the penalty. Sometimes the umpires says "you have another 30m to go", but by the time it's cleared the boat has lost 50m with momentum so ends up losing 100m or more.

The distance is done electronically all the umpires do is press the penalty button.  At one stage the drop back was 100m because of the double penalty.  So the umpire hit the button twice.  The computer system measures the drop back distance and all the umpire does is relay that measurement to the boat and when they are clear.

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5 minutes ago, **ONTOIT** said:

It is what it is, both boats are sailing in the same patch of water and it actually makes the race more about boat handling skills than just follow the leader....that's why most people believe it was one of the most exciting races of the whole regatta!

I can understand the almost Gladatorial spectator thrill but with these boats, when the difference between foiling and not is almost TEN TIMES the speed difference? It absolutely IS a fucking joke and a mockery of the AC75 Class. 

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1 minute ago, mako23 said:

If they were going to use the whomper you would of seen it deployed yesterday.

They are chicken.  Once they try it, they’ll like it- it will be awesome.  Better than picking the wrong jib!  :angry:  These guys are not Gods. They make some weird moves.  Even if it fails, everybody would be stoked-  if it’s bad, just leave it floating in the water for the support boats to pick up.  It’d be like F1 pit stops-  tires lying about...

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3 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

So at best you can say the are even.  Which is probably the best you can expect given two high class sailors.  The same satistics as tossing a coin.

For the starts?  Yup.

For the race results?  That's a different story - we now have a truckload of telemetry data.

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5 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

So you believe everything you hear at the presser?  Do you remember Burling telling the team when they were in displacement that "Boys this is a long race we are still in this"?

If you really think LR falling off the foils was bad luck over poor management then how do you explain the masterclass from ETNZ when they managed to foil through the same area in the same wind?
 

So at best you can say the are even.  Which is probably the best you can expect given two high class sailors.  The same satistics as tossing a coin.

PB learned from ‘The Gybe’.  That after action verbiage was ‘Bull Durham’. PR bullshit.  

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On 3/13/2021 at 6:32 PM, shanghaisailor said:

figures reported here in China (1115 local time start) of up to 200,000 across 9 platforms watching livestream with local simultaneous translating commentators. CSI & CSCI (China Sports Industry) are more than just sponsors 

 

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

I can understand the almost Gladatorial spectator thrill but with these boats, when the difference between foiling and not is almost TEN TIMES the speed difference? It absolutely IS fucking joke. 

NOOOOOOOO!  Watching the bows sinking slooowly into the water, up a little,  down a little,  was exquisite torture.  My wife (!) and I were yelling at the screen.  Watching the teams trying to get up on foils was just as involving!  Screaming GO! GO! INSANE Laughing!  Yelling ‘’BRING THE WHOPPER!”

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Yep and ETNZ is by far the fastest boat.  

If they were by far the fastest boat the score would be 8-0 or 7-1 much as it was in Bermuda when ETNZ's boat WAS the best by far.

Seems to me that ETNZ has a reasonable speed edge and probably the most room for increases in speed via enhanced boat handling.

But right now, LR can certainly still win races.

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13 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The distance is done electronically all the umpires do is press the penalty button.  At one stage the drop back was 100m because of the double penalty.  So the umpire hit the button twice.  The computer system measures the drop back distance and all the umpire does is relay that measurement to the boat and when they are clear.

Got it, you don't know how it's calculated.

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30 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The minimum wind limit is TOO LOW and ETNZ should have agreed with the others to raise it, after several debacles in the ACWS made the point so obvious.

Unless the designers have made the compromises which allow a boat to get back up on its foil more easily.

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3 minutes ago, jaysper said:

If they were by far the fastest boat the score would be 8-0 or 7-1 much as it was in Bermuda when ETNZ's boat WAS the best by far.

Seems to me that ETNZ has a reasonable speed edge and probably the most room for increases in speed via enhanced boat handling.

But right now, LR can certainly still win races.

While the wind is so slow it’s anyone’s boat race at the moment. At 14 or 15 knots I think Prada will struggle. Yes LR did win  at that speed before but ETNZ has worked out which modes goes best against LR 

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4 minutes ago, Amati said:

NOOOOOOOO!  Watching the bows sinking slooowly into the water, up a little,  down a little,  was exquisite torture.  My wife (!) and I were yelling at the screen.  Watching the teams trying to get up on foils was just as involving!  Screaming GO! GO! INSANE Laughing!  Yelling ‘’BRING THE WHOPPER!”

Sure, and as I posted it does make for spectatorial entertainment. But for me, as a very staunch advocate of the AC75 Class, it was a completely stupid scenario, a disaster. The exact thing I have been fearing might happen. 
 

Praying, praying, praying for a decent breeze today....

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3 minutes ago, mako23 said:

While the wind is so slow it’s anyone’s boat race at the moment. At 14 or 15 knots I think Prada will struggle. Yes LR did win  at that speed before but ETNZ has worked out which modes goes best against LR 

We aint gonna see 14 or 15 knots unfortunately.

But yeah I agree that ETNZ will likely have the edge.

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Should be exciting on Course C this afternoon. Southwesterly breeze - maybe  to 15 knots.

Teams will have to be on top of their game to pick the shifts. Should be strong in the right, especially bending around North Head.

Who will be sitting up on the hill?

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1 minute ago, southseasbill said:

'The regatta director Iain Murray said the umpires would tell both teams today that “boundaries are boundaries.”'

Lord Murray has spoken. Could be risking a DSQ.

Its all well and good saying that, but is it in the rules?

If so, then surely it would have been applied yesterday.

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From all the videos of ETNZ sailing around in light wind conditions while other teams have been sitting dead in the water or requiring towing up to foil, as well as race 8 and one of the xmas series wins where ETNZ sailed away in the light it does appear that getting up on foils in 6-7kts (a wind speed that they have known for years they need to be able to race in) is a particular strength of ETNZ.  They should not have that advantage taken away from them just because it doesn't suit the challenger - after all they have spent a lot of engineering, development and practise time figuring out how to do it, and if that wasn't required they would have made different optimisations that would have likely made them faster at higher wind speeds.

In previous cups there have been late redefinitions of wind limits that have disadvantaged certain challengers.  It is always a bullshit move to change the rules after the boats and appendages have already been built.

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Sure, and as I posted it does make for spectatorial entertainment. But for me, as a very staunch advocate of the AC75 Class, it was a completely stupid scenario, a disaster. The exact thing I have been fearing might happen. 
 

Praying, praying, praying for a decent breeze today....

It’s like watching sinkers trying to water start in marginal air.   If the 75’s can’t sail in a satisfactory way off the foils they are an evolutionary dead end.  I thought including ballast in the movable foils would do the trick for Archimedean sailing, but maybe that’s a design path for the future?  Being able to stop in the pre start might be interesting....

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1 minute ago, Foyle said:

From all the videos of ETNZ sailing around in light wind conditions while other teams have been sitting dead in the water or requiring towing up to foil, as well as race 8 and one of the xmas series wins where ETNZ sailed away in the light it does appear that getting up on foils in 6-7kts (a wind speed that they have known for years they need to be able to race in) is a particular strength of ETNZ.  They should not have that advantage taken away from them just because it doesn't suit the challenger - after all they have spent a lot of engineering, development and practise time figuring out how to do it, and if that wasn't required they would have made different optimisations that would have likely made them faster at higher wind speeds.

In previous cups there have been late redefinitions of wind limits that have disadvantaged certain challengers.  It is always a bullshit move to change the rules after the boats and appendages have already been built.

Who is wanting to change the rules apart from Stingray?

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17 minutes ago, jaysper said:

If they were by far the fastest boat the score would be 8-0 or 7-1 much as it was in Bermuda when ETNZ's boat WAS the best by far.

Seems to me that ETNZ has a reasonable speed edge and probably the most room for increases in speed via enhanced boat handling.

But right now, LR can certainly still win races.

Oracle always had the fastest boat in San Fran.  ETNZ in Bermuda.

ETNZ has the same edge in speed if not more than either of those two scenarios and are still on the up in terms of development. They are also getting better at sailing the new config under RACE conditions.  Clearly evident in the first race yesterday not so much in the second.

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52 minutes ago, dorydude said:

There was at least one (Koch bros?) syndicate prepared to defend in a 90ft w/l boat. SDYC told them to fuck off.

It would all never have happened if SDYC had confirmed the venue for the next match. They were taking far too much time to decide between San Diego and Hawaii which would have resulted in completely different designs  for each venue.

Which is why the traditional handshake happens between commidores after the last race nowadays. 

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19 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Sure, and as I posted it does make for spectatorial entertainment. But for me, as a very staunch advocate of the AC75 Class, it was a completely stupid scenario, a disaster. The exact thing I have been fearing might happen. 

I disagree it was a disaster.  The ETNZ v INEOS xmas race scenario with both boats stuck in displacement mode having no chance of foiling was a disaster.  This was edge of your seat 'who can do a better job with the conditions' scenario.  LR was unlucky but that is sport unfortunately and it could happen to ETNZ today!

Given everything that has happened to date, it is almost more likely than not that LR will win both today.  It is almost like whatever is the least likely to happen is the thing that happens...

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8 minutes ago, Amati said:

If the 75’s can’t sail in a satisfactory way off the foils they are an evolutionary dead end.  I thought including ballast in the movable foils would do the trick for Archimedean sailing, but maybe that’s a design path for the future?

The answer has been obvious since December: The minimum windspeeds were set too low back when they dreamt it up, and they have failed to agree to fix that blaringly obvious problem. 
 

These boats are awesome when foiling but look, and are, absolutely terrible in displacement mode. 
 

Praying for wind today! 

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10 minutes ago, Foyle said:

From all the videos of ETNZ sailing around in light wind conditions while other teams have been sitting dead in the water or requiring towing up to foil, as well as race 8 and one of the xmas series wins where ETNZ sailed away in the light it does appear that getting up on foils in 6-7kts (a wind speed that they have known for years they need to be able to race in) is a particular strength of ETNZ.  They should not have that advantage taken away from them just because it doesn't suit the challenger - after all they have spent a lot of engineering, development and practise time figuring out how to do it, and if that wasn't required they would have made different optimisations that would have likely made them faster at higher wind speeds.

In previous cups there have been late redefinitions of wind limits that have disadvantaged certain challengers.  It is always a bullshit move to change the rules after the boats and appendages have already been built.

NZ have shown that despite their narrow foils, they are able to get up on foils in the light air at least as well - if not better - than other teams.

I think it may be that the narrow canoe bustle, plus low drag foils, pus a few extra square metres of sail, all help NZ pick up vital speed even better than the other boats.

This may cost them a some extra leeway, but that's more than compensated for, if they can foil just a few seconds faster than a competitor.

IMO. :)

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55 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

I’m sure there are all kinds of great comments above but here’s my take on yesterday:

R7 was pretty good!

R8 COMPLETELY SUCKED!!!! No matter who won, it proved how completely disastrous it is if either of the foilers fall off their fucking foils! From 2000m ahead to 2000m behind? What a cruel fucking joke. 
 

The minimum wind limit is TOO LOW and ETNZ should have agreed with the others to raise it, after several debacles in the ACWS made the point so obvious.

Boats falling off foils have fucked up starts in the Match too, it’s ridiculous for the beauty that is the AC75 Foiler Class. 

Piss off. The boats are fully capable of racing in the agreed range. The same happened in Bermuda and you loved it! 

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7 hours ago, laser 173312 said:

I know what your saying, but at that time the rich used Guineas not Pounds and it's value against the pound fluctuated, in the same way as the Franc or Mark. It was only standardised as £1 and 1s later.

Much the same as a Fathom at 6 feet, rather than fingertip to fingertip.

Don't deny history, just to make it fit the world you live in.

 

Haha - I would say the same to you. History is history and you are very largely wrong. The pound replaced the guinea as the coinage standard in 1816, a long time before the Race for the £100 Cup (see attached flyer)

I quote "Even after the guinea coin ceased to circulate, the guinea was long used as a unit of account worth 21 shillings (£1.05 in decimalised currency). The guinea had an aristocratic overtone, so professional fees, and prices of land, horses, art, bespoke tailoring, furniture, white goods and other "luxury" items were often quoted in guineas until a couple of years after decimalisation in 1971"

The seller received the amount in pounds with the 5% difference retained by the auctioneer as commission.

A fathom by the way WAS AND IS 6 feet and there is no comparison although you are correct it as standardised from a fingertip to fingertip and not even closely the same as the difference between a guinea (1.05 Pounds) and an ACTUAL POUND.

You might find it useful to read Bob Fisher's " An Absorbing Interest" the definitive history of the America's Cup.

Bob spent 3 months in the NYYC archives as part of his research for the book (his wife Dee typed 2 million research notes for the book for him) and is by far the most comprehensive work on the America's Cup history.

A most wonderful man and a good friend, sadly Bob passed away in January.

The book (actually two volumes) was £250 not 250 Guineas which would have been £262.50 and is well worth tracking down if you are a true AC fan although the original print run was only 2,000.

Have a look at the short promo video at An Absorbing Interest - The America's Cup 1851 - 2003 - YouTube

You might also find it useful to visit the Royal Yacht Squadron website for the OFFICIAL HISTORY of the event

rys - The Yacht America

 

 

 

 

1851 Royal Yacht Squadron Regatta.jpg

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4 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Ermm not quite accurate

  Harry "Buddy" Melges won Olympic Gold in 1972 and won the AC in 1992.

He is not a Kiwi.

Not a Kiwi sheep shagger indeed, he is a pig farmer. :D

(Anyone remembers?)

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1 minute ago, MaxHugen said:

I think it may be that the narrow canoe bustle, plus low drag foils, pus a few extra square metres of sail, all help NZ pick up vital speed even better than the other boats.

 

Hi Max.  Did you analyse the jib sail areas yesterday?  I thought ETNZ had a lot more volume down lower than LR.

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5 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

NZ have shown that despite their narrow foils, they are able to get up on foils in the light air at least as well - if not better - than other teams.

I think it may be that the narrow canoe bustle, plus low drag foils, pus a few extra square metres of sail, all help NZ pick up vital speed even better than the other boats.

This may cost them a some extra leeway, but that's more than compensated for, if they can foil just a few seconds faster than a competitor.

IMO. :)

Maybe it should be a Le Mans start to the AC. The crew have to row 200 meters to the boat, hoist the sails and get foiling

 

Or even better uses modern Maori war canoe to get to the boat

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13 minutes ago, SloopJohnB said:

Only in the latter part of the Cup.

Nope.  The telemetry was always better in terms of top speed and VMG from race 1.  They were just losing heaps of time and distance tacking and gybing.  That wasn't a speed issue but a control issue.

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Hi Max.  Did you analyse the jib sail areas yesterday?  I thought ETNZ had a lot more volume down lower than LR.

No...  been busy minding grand kids!

I have noted previously that the clews of the different  jibs are all pretty much in the same position, so they do have more of their area lower down proportionately as the jibs get smaller.

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2 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

No...  been busy minding grand kids!

I have noted previously that the clews of the different  jibs are all pretty much in the same position, so they do have more of their area lower down proportionately as the jibs get smaller.

Have you been turned into a unpaid babysitter, however I’m sure you love your grandkids very much.

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10 minutes ago, Geppeto2 said:

The rain and some wind has hit the Auckland West Coast. Could be on. 

Cool. Dun spose any chance 9f getting 12+?

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29 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

Who is wanting to change the rules apart from Stingray?

Too late to change the rules, obviously. But unless the Class Rule changes for next time, then it is blatantly obvious the min is set too low, since foiling boats falling off foils has led to disastrously macabre scenes. 

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Anyone in AKL got  the current weather please? Murray has announced course C in this forecast W to S wind forecast which means it's going to be another frikkin lottery.....

Enquiring minds would love to know as I would seriously love to go back to bed......

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3 minutes ago, Piet56 said:

Anyone in AKL got  the current weather please? Murray has announced course C in this forecast W to S wind forecast which means it's going to be another frikkin lottery.....

Enquiring minds would love to know as I would seriously love to go back to bed......

If you do you might have nothing to watch tomorrow.  All the signs are that it will come from the predicted SW but will be lighter than yesterday.  Expect bigger jibs today.

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1 hour ago, zenmasterfred said:

figures reported here in China (1115 local time start) of up to 200,000 across 9 platforms watching livestream with local simultaneous translating commentators. CSI & CSCI (China Sports Industry) are more than just sponsors 

 

YouTube Day 5 Live 427,090 views 24 hours after. 

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Sod's law is I will stay up from now till o5h'ish here in the UK and no racing...... ahh well in for a penny I guess...... sleep is overated right?

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4 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

6-7 knots at Bean rock consistently over last few hours from 322 degrees

About the same as this time yesterday right?

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5 minutes ago, Piet56 said:

Sod's law is I will stay up from now till o5h'ish here in the UK and no racing...... ahh well in for a penny I guess...... sleep is overated right?

I hear you.

So many sleepless nights for nothing during the valencia cups.

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

I hear you.

So many sleepless nights for nothing during the valencia cups.

Please..... MERCY...... Don'r remind me... I'll be good..... I may even be nice to someone.....

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Stuff all wind on the course but we have 2 hours to go. On the last race yesterday NZ only fell off their foils because of that stuffed gybe. Once they got up they were able to sail the course without falling off again whereas Luna Rossa fell off of their own accord. I'm not convinced it was just bad luck I give the Kiwis some credit for being able to deal with the bottom of the wind range better IMHO...:)

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54 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

But for me, as a very staunch advocate of the AC75 Class, it was a completely stupid scenario, a disaster. The exact thing I have been fearing might happen.

But we never had that stupid scenario with the cats and the races gave more catch up and passings.

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6 minutes ago, Piet56 said:

Please..... MERCY...... Don'r remind me... I'll be good..... I may even be nice to someone.....

Well I'll torture you with this story.

One night I stayed up till about 2 or 3am waiting for the racing to start.

I concluded at that time that they weren't going to do any racing (already waited 2 or 3 hours) so went to bed.

Turns out racing started about 45 minutes after I went to sleep.

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13 minutes ago, Piet56 said:

Anyone in AKL got  the current weather please? Murray has announced course C in this forecast W to S wind forecast which means it's going to be another frikkin lottery.....

Enquiring minds would love to know as I would seriously love to go back to bed......

Prenez votre sac à dos, remplissez-le de sable, versez-y cinq seaux d'eau et allez courir. Vous réveillera. Enfoiré de flemmard!

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Turns out racing started about 45 minutes after I went to sleep.

Ditto..... been there done that believe me...... Fuck it - people at the office a gonna pay for me being grumpy this morning......

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56 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Sure, and as I posted it does make for spectatorial entertainment. But for me, as a very staunch advocate of the AC75 Class, it was a completely stupid scenario, a disaster. The exact thing I have been fearing might happen. 
 

Praying, praying, praying for a decent breeze today....

But it happened to BOTH teams and then it came down to who could get back up. It also came down to TWO errors, one from both teams. So the scenario wasn't stupid.....these boats always represent the chance of falling off the foils.....its just one more element added to the intrigue, a but like what happens when a certain team FUCKS up the mark rounding and bins the boat in high winds!

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2 minutes ago, Jean-Baptiste said:

Prenez votre sac à dos, remplissez-le de sable, versez-y cinq seaux d'eau et allez courir. Vous réveillera. Enfoiré de flemmard!

Oui Chef.... A vos ordres Chef..... mais Chef.... ca Pique.....  Direction la plage.... Marche

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19 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

NZ have shown that despite their narrow foils, they are able to get up on foils in the light air at least as well - if not better - than other teams.

I think it may be that the narrow canoe bustle, plus low drag foils, pus a few extra square metres of sail, all help NZ pick up vital speed even better than the other boats.

This may cost them a some extra leeway, but that's more than compensated for, if they can foil just a few seconds faster than a competitor.

IMO. :)

It kind of looks like a moth hull pasted to the bottom of a New Haven Sharpie, low prismatic(?), so it accelerates quickly, wetted surface especially as s/l goes up, Tricky balance...

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

But we never had that stupid scenario with the cats and the races gave more catch up and passings.

Bermuda in Cats and with the reaching starts was a touch better that way, yes, but falling off the foils happened at the bottom of the wind range there too, mostly for OR. It proved to be more a weather-dicey than a design competition. 

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5 minutes ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

what a terrible venue, almost as bad a San Diego :)

No fog but.

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Palm trees starting to move and a freshening breeze seems to be coming perhaps the front anticipated may come in earlier @ Northcote Point for geographically challenged thats up Harbour from the course where the bridge lands on the North side of the harbour.

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Nope, falling off the foils is GIGANTIC compared to any other factor. 

Not when BOTH teams experience the same piece of water and one keeps it on foils and the other doesn't ….which team / boat is better?

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3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

As long as Spithill goes off the sunset and never races a Cup Boat again I am very happy.

Well, you can't really beat up on the guy this time around. He's very nearly been likeable, no? 

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1 minute ago, Navig8tor said:

Palm trees starting to move and a freshening breeze seems to be coming perhaps the front anticipated may come in earlier @ Northcote Point for geographically challenged thats up Harbour from the course where the bridge lands on the North side of the harbour.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\fml - \like waiting for the ex-wife to make up her mind....... excoriating!

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6 minutes ago, **ONTOIT** said:

But it happened to BOTH teams and then it came down to who could get back up. It also came down to TWO errors, one from both teams. So the scenario wasn't stupid.....these boats always represent the chance of falling off the foils.....its just one more element added to the intrigue, a but like what happens when a certain team FUCKS up the mark rounding and bins the boat in high winds!

Its racing for sure. No question. Tactics, boat handling, optimizing the technology, navigation, and reading wind and waves. The drop off the cliff and clawing back onto the foils is kind of a cock block to the action though. Otherwise, its what its supposed to be.

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2 minutes ago, Piet56 said:

Right - fuck it - Coffee time.....

Onya, Piet. 

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