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AC36: The Match (6-15th March. Reserve days to the 21st)


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3 minutes ago, jaysper said:

They went that way cos they didn't have a lot of choice.

They may have had "no choice" but they made that choice not because they didn't have the choice but because that is where they wanted to be.  A slight throw of the dice but they set it up a long way back by getting into a position to be in the right phase when the inevitable oscillation occurred.  Burling and Tuke did the same thing during the 49ner World Champs.  Lose a bit of comparative position and then when that shift arrives grab it.

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And just to add to that record, Mozzy Sails contacted me direct to ask permission to use my photos and even offered to purchase some, by way of compensation. I am more than happy to contribute an

Just for the record, I contacted @erdb @MaxHugen @doroxand @weta27asked if they were happy me using images or graphs etc. I always try to credit them in the video and in the description as agreed.  I

I want to thank all the amazing people I had the pleasure to meet here on Sailing Anarchy during this America's Cup. It's a huge list. Brits, Irish, Kiwis, fellow Italians, French, Dutch, Americans, C

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1 hour ago, 1eyedkiwi said:

From memory it was in the press conference after OR won the last RR race against ETNZ which meant OR had that extra point.

Ok thanks mate, have the date so, don't see the press conference yet, will look more later 

https://www.marinij.com/2017/06/03/oracle-beats-kiwis-in-bermuda-for-americas-cup-bonus-point/

 

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33 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

They may have had "no choice" but they made that choice not because they didn't have the choice but because that is where they wanted to be.

No. If LR had wanted the right side at the top of the beat they could have taken it. All they needed to do was not to tack before the layline. Then TR would have to take the left side or follow LR with an extra tack and bad air at the layline.

It was totally in LR's control which side LR took and which side they like to force TR to take. They just thought left side was better.

It doesn't really matter what TR thought, since they were not in a position to make their own choice.

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17 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Just before the tack that LR didn't cover.

They really couldn't once they decided to protect the left side. Not that much lead, TR on starboard and they were too far away. Covering at that point would have meant two tacks in row and big loss. Most likely they couldn't have leebowed TR on layline.

So another tack in order to cover would have been a very likely pass given for TR. They thought left was favored and stick to that.

Sure they know the local geography well enough. TR went the left side on the first beat and got really close to LR and they rounded the same time.

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14 minutes ago, Joakim said:

It was totally in LR's control which side LR took and which side they like to force TR to take. They just thought left side was better.

 

We disagree on most of this except one thing - LR was in control being in front.  ETNZ set them up from a long way back and LR took the wrong option even though they in your words "had total control". 

In saying that LR know they have the slower boat by a margin and have to roll the dice more than ETNZ.  If LR had covered ETNZ were close enough to get their nose in front.

I hope in the last presser we get some honesty out of both Bruni and Spithall regarding ETNZ's speed.

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23 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

1 min from the point LR decided to go left.  Difference in wind direction 17between the two ends of the gate - would have been greater where the boats were.

image.thumb.png.9ae7175623b3720ef218ea9a5062f3b6.png

 

Says 6 degrees in the data at the bottom, no?

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Not that this is a major advantage anymore, but.......

Luna Rossa will have port entry for both races today - if two are needed - as yesterday's second race becomes today's first race

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3 hours ago, nav said:

What do you think of the newly displayed 'air wakes'. I like 'em, but two things....

Are they more or less in the right place?

I like them too. They don’t look as sophisticated as the (now) SGP graphics but it makes the point anyway, those smoky shadows. 

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Regarding course selection:

We've introduced a new course called the AB course, and dragged it down to a point where it just fits into the Rangitoto Channel," Murray says

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Just now, **ONTOIT** said:

Not that this is a major advantage anymore, but.......

Luna Rossa will have port entry for both races today - if two are needed - as yesterday's second race becomes today's first race

Interesting.

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Reasoning:

"We're trying to get in the compression area between Rangitoto and the shore to try eek out a bit more wind...trying to make the most out of what we've got."

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8 minutes ago, jawjaw said:

Says 6 degrees in the data at the bottom, no?

I don't believe that onboard wind data is a true reflection of the actual wind direction and speed.  It has to be a calculated figure due to the apparent wind factor.  I realise that there is probably some algorithm that is being used but in my opinion it doesn't accurately reflect the actual conditions.  

If you look at the frame where they are practically together there is a 6 degree difference in wind direction even when they are not being affected by each others mainsail.

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8 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

We disagree on most of this except one thing - LR was in control being in front.  ETNZ set them up from a long way back and LR took the wrong option even though they in your words "had total control". 

In saying that LR know they have the slower boat by a margin and have to roll the dice more than ETNZ.  If LR had covered ETNZ were close enough to get their nose in front.

I hope in the last presser we get some honesty out of both Bruni and Spithall regarding ETNZ's speed.

Look at @erdb's analysis it shows there is very little in the stats?

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1 hour ago, 45Roller said:

Any idea what day this was? I'm trying to find it on YouTube, thanks

I've seen the vid but a quick google search only came up with this quote of it: https://www.royalgazette.com/event/sport/article/20170605/spithill-makes-the-most-of-mind-games/

(it misquotes him slightly tho he referred to Slingsby as a tactician, whereas this article quotes him as saying technition.)

 

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58 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

They may have had "no choice" but they made that choice not because they didn't have the choice but because that is where they wanted to be.  A slight throw of the dice but they set it up a long way back by getting into a position to be in the right phase when the inevitable oscillation occurred.  Burling and Tuke did the same thing during the 49ner World Champs.  Lose a bit of comparative position and then when that shift arrives grab it.

They had to go where LR decided to send them. They had no other choice than see what the boat ahead decided and go the other way. Ir LR decided the crossing and continue to the right, how on could they follow on the them without losing heavily?

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2 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

Look at @erdb's analysis it shows there is very little in the stats?

My interpretation of his stats is that ETNZ are faster across the range.  However how does he factor in the unknown of what mode the boats are being asked to sail?  Only those onboard know that.

We mere mortals go "Ok let's pinch a bit here" as we look a third of the way up the course doing 8-12 knots boat speed.  These dudes are thinking about their position two laps ahead doing 40 knots!

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11 minutes ago, **ONTOIT** said:

Regarding course selection:

We've introduced a new course called the AB course, and dragged it down to a point where it just fits into the Rangitoto Channel," Murray says

Fingers crossed it provides better racing that the straight A course.

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6 hours ago, C. Spackler said:

Why are Bruni and Spithall in such good moods at the press conference? Call my cynical but I can't buy their comment about enjoying a good tight race on Course C.

They get briefed before the presser.  The AC wants the best PR possible, FUN! rather than long faces.

No sailor bought the "great fun out there today" bullshit.

I was very hard stressful WORK, and they would have been shattered.  They both did it, but Spithill is a past master at this kind of bullshit.  I still cannot forgive him for the "imagine if you lost from here" smart arse comment, when he knew they had taken steps to make sure that happened.

PB just rabbits-on rhetoric and does not answer the question, that is annoying but it is the the same level of bullshit.  Gashby has the best compromise delivery.

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2 minutes ago, 1eyedkiwi said:

Fingers crossed it provides better racing that the straight A course.

Murray stated it makes for "SPICY" racing, whatever the fuck that means!

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16 minutes ago, **ONTOIT** said:

Regarding course selection:

We've introduced a new course called the AB course, and dragged it down to a point where it just fits into the Rangitoto Channel," Murray says

AB-normal? (cit)

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14 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I don't believe that onboard wind data is a true reflection of the actual wind direction and speed.  It has to be a calculated figure due to the apparent wind factor.  I realise that there is probably some algorithm that is being used but in my opinion it doesn't accurately reflect the actual conditions.  

If you look at the frame where they are practically together there is a 6 degree difference in wind direction even when they are not being affected by each others mainsail.

extremely difficult to accurately estimate true wind angle on a high apparent wind boat with variable sail lift coefficient.

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7 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Ir LR decided the crossing and continue to the right, how on could they follow on the them without losing heavily?

Go back and watch a replay of Virtual Eye.  ETNZ were gaining on LR prior to when LR tacked.  LR tacked still losing ground.  Then ETNZ tacked but still kept gaining cutting the gap down to less than 30m.  They then lost some ground setting themselves up for the boundary tack and in 8 seconds went from 70m behind to 25m in front.

ETNZ were the tail wagging the dog through most of that period of the race.

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5 minutes ago, Foyle said:

extremely difficult to accurately estimate true wind angle on a high apparent wind boat with variable sail lift coefficient.

Agreed.  That's why I don't take much notice of that data.  There also seems to be a lag between the data feed and what is actually happening visually.

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

They've made a typo. It's only one match race.

You'd think they'd be more professional than that.

Yeah, muppets, anyone would think they know something that we dont!!:unsure:

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Did not have time to read the hundreds of comments since yesterday.

My take is that Jimmy and Bruni are under pressure and must compensate a slower boat by taking risks. It pays off at the start and the first part of the race, however there is a point when they have enough advance to limit the risks, cover, tack with care. However they keep on taking risks and when it happens they are finished.

On the other hand Pete make mistakes, mainly at the start and perhaps others that we don't see, but ...we don't see it because the boat is sligthly faster, the final mistakes of the italians help them recover and win.

 

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Any takers:

TAB ODDS

Race 10:

Team New Zealand - $1.35
Luna Rossa - $2.90

Overall winner of the America's Cup:

Team New Zealand - $1.01
Luna Rossa - $15

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Just now, **ONTOIT** said:

Any takers:

TAB ODDS

Race 10:

Team New Zealand - $1.35
Luna Rossa - $2.90

Overall winner of the America's Cup:

Team New Zealand - $1.01
Luna Rossa - $15

Race 10 - LRPP @ $2.90 looks pretty good.

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28 minutes ago, bob202 said:

I've seen the vid but a quick google search only came up with this quote of it: https://www.royalgazette.com/event/sport/article/20170605/spithill-makes-the-most-of-mind-games/

(it misquotes him slightly tho he referred to Slingsby as a tactician, whereas this article quotes him as saying technition.)

 

excellent stuff mate, thanks for that 

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18 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

My interpretation of his stats is that ETNZ are faster across the range.  However how does he factor in the unknown of what mode the boats are being asked to sail?  Only those onboard know that.

We mere mortals go "Ok let's pinch a bit here" as we look a third of the way up the course doing 8-12 knots boat speed.  These dudes are thinking about their position two laps ahead doing 40 knots!

I agree, they are faster in almost every condition and point of sail. Everything has to go right for LR to stay in front, and they did an excellent good job throughout the race except for that one shift. However, even if they defended that, ETNZ may have passed them downwind anyway.

I just watched the onboard videos from each boat. I feel sorry for Bruni. You can hear (I think Tuke) on the other boat saying we got lucky here. They had know idea it's gonna work out for them.

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15 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Go back and watch a replay of Virtual Eye.  ETNZ were gaining on LR prior to when LR tacked.  LR tacked still losing ground.  Then ETNZ tacked but still kept gaining cutting the gap down to less than 30m.  They then lost some ground setting themselves up for the boundary tack and in 8 seconds went from 70m behind to 25m in front.

ETNZ were the tail wagging the dog through most of that period of the race.

A key step was ETNZ figuring out after the 2nd day how to tack better than LR. They had a faster boat, but couldn't make a pass while losing in the tacks. Now they can wag their tails all over the place :D.

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2 minutes ago, erdb said:

You can hear (I think Tuke) on the other boat saying we got lucky here. They had know idea it's gonna work out for them.

Yep! Heard it too.

It’s not looking likely for any racing today but whenever it gets back on, a 6-3 lead is gonna be very tough to overcome..

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6 minutes ago, 45Roller said:

excellent stuff mate, thanks for that 

And as usual these days, mind-games Jimmy ends up with egg all over his face. Too bad, huh?

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

Yep! Heard it too.

It’s not looking likely for any racing today but whenever it gets back on, a 6-3 lead is gonna be very tough to overcome..

Shit I just checked the forecast. Yesterday it seemed we're going to have a nice breeze today. What happened? Anyway, it's better if they don't race today and sail in a good breeze tomorrow. 

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5 hours ago, strider470 said:

I totally disagree. If Luna Rossa won 3 races so far, and almost other 2 that instead they lost by a hair, it was exactly for their good match racing tactics, strategy and good starts. Or do you think they did it because they have a faster boat? Or were they lucky by any means?
If today the score were 5 - 4 instead of 3 - 6 for LR because of those two races, nobody could say that the score was not deserved. But they did one error in rounding the mark in a race (ETNZ did the very same error of falling off the foils but they were in the middle of the race course where it was more windy and could recover in half the time, we are talking of minutes), and a single wrong call in the other and we are here 3 - 6.

In the last race for instance they made only one error if you want to call that so. It was more a choice, that in the end went wrong. ETNZ has been totally passive for a good part of the race and in particular in the key moment: they went to the right only because LR chose to put them there because Bruni saw less wind in that direction. Would you say that this was a smart decision from Peter Burling? They took what they were forced to take, and it was good. With these boats, finding pressure plays a huge part in gaining or losing, especially if you are not on the faster boat. That's something you can easily see on the virtual eye, but the crews can only guess information watching the water and using their instinct while sailing at a crazy speed.

Considering the speed advantage of TR, the  Kiwi crew is actually tactically under performing, while on the boat handling part they are really showing a fantastic performance.

You can make a pile of steaming shit apetising...

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20 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Yep! Heard it too.

It’s not looking likely for any racing today but whenever it gets back on, a 6-3 lead is gonna be very tough to overcome..

22 knots with 26 peak @ Channel Island outer Hauraki Gulf may push through some puff later.

 

19 minutes ago, **ONTOIT** said:

Does this mean hes going to ram ETNZ??

JS on guitar:P

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20 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Yep! Heard it too.

It’s not looking likely for any racing today but whenever it gets back on, a 6-3 lead is gonna be very tough to overcome..

Again I'm not what feed you are listening to.  But you can definitely hear on ETNZ someone making the call that there was more pressure out to the right.

 

26 minutes ago, erdb said:

You can hear (I think Tuke) on the other boat saying we got lucky here.

Lucky in what respect?  Lucky that LR went the other way?

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33 minutes ago, **ONTOIT** said:

Any takers:

TAB ODDS

Race 10:

Team New Zealand - $1.35
Luna Rossa - $2.90

Overall winner of the America's Cup:

Team New Zealand - $1.01
Luna Rossa - $15

Good money-laundering odds on ETNZ. The drug dealers and second-hand car dealers will drive that $1.35 down to $1.20 before too long

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Speaking of luck. I am lucky enough to celebrate my birthday on St Patrick's day.

So hopefully today will be a trifecta of good luck for ETNZ!

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2 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Speaking of luck. I am lucky enough to celebrate my birthday on St Patrick's day.

So hopefully today will be a trifecta of good luck for ETNZ!

Good for you, happy birthday!

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2 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

Yeah, I wondered what Lester was on about?

Serves you right if you listen to that dribble on TVNZ! I listened in to a reply just to see if the commentary on TVNZ had improved....sadly the answer was a big fat NOPE!!

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8 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Speaking of luck. I am lucky enough to celebrate my birthday on St Patrick's day.

So hopefully today will be a trifecta of good luck for ETNZ!

Well happy birthday mate, hope you have a good one, how is the Guinness there?

for a laugh.. here's an interview with our patron saint from our favourite sailing commentator :lol:

 

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3 hours ago, Paddywackery said:

not being able to have a drink

Being an irishman on St Paddy's day would have been enough to damned near kill you without the other shit, right? :lol:

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35 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Speaking of luck. I am lucky enough to celebrate my birthday on St Patrick's day.

So hopefully today will be a trifecta of good luck for ETNZ!

Yeah, happy birthday.

Undoubtedly the ONE RACE today will be enough to buoy your spirits :D

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37 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Speaking of luck. I am lucky enough to celebrate my birthday on St Patrick's day.

So hopefully today will be a trifecta of good luck for ETNZ!

Have you reached the status of an old bastard 

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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

They may have had "no choice" but they made that choice not because they didn't have the choice but because that is where they wanted to be.

WTF are you on about?

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I don't believe that onboard wind data is a true reflection of the actual wind direction and speed.  It has to be a calculated figure due to the apparent wind factor.  I realise that there is probably some algorithm that is being used but in my opinion it doesn't accurately reflect the actual conditions.  

True wind direction and velocity are simple vector calculations using boatspeed, COG, apparent wind direction, and apparent wind velocity. Every modern wind instrument system in the last 40 years has been able to do this with reasonable precision.

Because these are calculated values rather directly measured, accuracy depends on the accuracy and calibration of each individual instrument input. The error is the sum of errors of the individual inputs.

One advantage of foiling boats is that you you have generally  near steady-state of pitch and roll, unlike a conventional monohull with a fair amount of vertical acceleration in any kind of sea, which obviously impacts on apparent wind and anything calculated from it. Have you ever watched how your wind instruments oscillate as your boat moves through waves, especially in any kind of sea?

Most instruments have damping functions to remove some of this effect.

It should not be a surprise to discover that a huge amount of effort goes into instrument calibration, constantly. On the old ACC boats, I once asked one of the instrument specialists how often they calibrate instruments. His answer was: "every day."

At the end of the day, it is more accurate than you think, and what matters is the wind direction and velocity that the boat and sails "see". Sailors almost always work in relative figures. 

The instrument systems themselves are humming away in their own little universe of absolutes.

At least on the boats I race, which are pretty conventional.Your experience may vary.

 

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30 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Being an irishman on St Paddy's day would have been enough to damned near kill you without the other shit, right? :lol:

Right.

We’re having ‘virtual parades’ this year. Now that’s not going to work. 

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

22 knots with 26 peak @ Channel Island outer Hauraki Gulf may push through some puff later.

 

JS on guitar:P

Channel Island always blows (gets a venturi effect between GBI and the Coromandel), not a good indicator of what is going to happen in the inner gulf.   But of course now I have made this statement I will be proved wrong, and if that means good racing today then I am okay.

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18 hours ago, Piet56 said:

I'll send the fucker if you pay the freight..... getting sick of him shitting in my garden...... :lol::lol::ph34r:

Sprinkling chilli seems to have worked for me with someone else's cat.

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8 minutes ago, BoatSlut said:

Any updated wind and course forecasts ?

Fuck all at the moment and not looking good. Still time but this mornings forecast should have seen some movement by now

Screen Shot 2021-03-17 at 1.36.20 PM.png

Screen Shot 2021-03-17 at 1.38.15 PM.png

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10 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

I wonder if the two Squadron Commodores are on the same boat today?

They are locked in a room at the squadron with phones and email off

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1 hour ago, 45Roller said:

Well happy birthday mate, hope you have a good one, how is the Guinness there?

for a laugh.. here's an interview with our patron saint from our favourite sailing commentator :lol:

 

The one I've had so far was great! NZ usually does St Paddies quite well, but this year everyone appears a little distracted ;-)

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