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7 people, 6 days, 15-foot sailboat, Havana to almost Palm Beach


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Take a look at the boat, obiously homemade.  Tiny sail, no boom, no centerboard, no motor.  Roughly 250 miles in 6 days, so about 40 miles per day.  Gulf Stream must have helped.  How'd they cram enough food and water for seven souls, six days?  

If they'd have made it to shore, they probably wouldn't have been immediately deported.  But they didn't, and the Coast Guard rescued them (or shall we say took them aboard, since the boat looks still "sailable", or driftable.  All were in "good medical condition"

Crazy, dangerous, ultimately unsuccessful.  Why does part of me wish they had made it?  Like them or don't like them, or somewhere in between, they're fellow sailors.  I'm glad they didn't perish.

 

The boat caught my eye--it looks like a larger version of the Turnabout I learned sailing on.  

 

https://www.dvidshub.net/image/6525408/coast-guard-repatriates-7-migrants-cuba

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2 hours ago, nolatom said:

Take a look at the boat, obiously homemade.  Tiny sail, no boom, no centerboard, no motor.  Roughly 250 miles in 6 days, so about 40 miles per day.  Gulf Stream must have helped.  How'd they cram enough food and water for seven souls, six days?  

If they'd have made it to shore, they probably wouldn't have been immediately deported.  But they didn't, and the Coast Guard rescued them (or shall we say took them aboard, since the boat looks still "sailable", or driftable.  All were in "good medical condition"

Crazy, dangerous, ultimately unsuccessful.  Why does part of me wish they had made it?  Like them or don't like them, or somewhere in between, they're fellow sailors.  I'm glad they didn't perish.

 

The boat caught my eye--it looks like a larger version of the Turnabout I learned sailing on.  

 

https://www.dvidshub.net/image/6525408/coast-guard-repatriates-7-migrants-cuba

That's about like sailing a Mac race in a 420... with 6 other people.

If nothing else, I think the Coast Guard should hire them as coaches. Split 'em up among the sailing and rowing teams. And I bet some of them are better at soccer than USAnians, also

;)

FB- Doug

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I really wish we’d fix our immigration policies. I’m all for making it easier for South Americans and Mexicans to do it legally. The Cubans have to get a little ballsy just to get here. I wish we’d just welcome them with open arms. They’ve already demonstrated a love for America simply by risking their lives to get here. Why are we still fighting with Cuba?  To be honest though, maybe it’s for the best. They’ve been spared from our cruise ships!!

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14 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I really wish we’d fix our immigration policies. I’m all for making it easier for South Americans and Mexicans to do it legally. The Cubans have to get a little ballsy just to get here. I wish we’d just welcome them with open arms. They’ve already demonstrated a love for America simply by risking their lives to get here. Why are we still fighting with Cuba?  To be honest though, maybe it’s for the best. They’ve been spared from our cruise ships!!

Well, they've been getting the best of American tourism... those with the guts and the initiative to figure out a way to get there! ;)

I know a bunch of people who have gone there multiple times on church missions. FWIW I think opposing Soviet expansionism was good, but a multi-generational economic crusade against Cuba... politically fueled by the grandchildren of people who were pals with Batista... is just plain stupid and ultimately self-destructive.

Immigration policy: looks like a new round of discussion is started. I actually have some half decent email communications with my Federal reps (especially both Senators, lately) and I encourage all to do the same. The immigration policy reform movement has been around for a long time, with some surprising points of agreement from both red & blue sides.

Meanwhile, I am hoping these refugees make it!

FB- Doug

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25 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I really wish we’d fix our immigration policies. I’m all for making it easier for South Americans and Mexicans to do it legally. The Cubans have to get a little ballsy just to get here. I wish we’d just welcome them with open arms.

Instead of making it easier for Cubans to go to America, why not make it easier for Cubans to stay in Cuba? 

Just lift the 60-year-old illegal blockade, which is condemned every year by the United Nations General Assembly, usually by a margin of 188 to 2.

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16 minutes ago, Dex Sawash said:

Planked with roofing tin?

1000w_q95.jpg

 

 

 

Edit-  is this also a proper rudder?

Not according to class standards.. ;-)

The CG report said “wood and aluminum”.

 

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Instead of making it easier for Cubans to go to America, why not make it easier for Cubans to stay in Cuba? 

Just lift the 60-year-old illegal blockade, which is condemned every year by the United Nations General Assembly, usually by a margin of 188 to 2.

I'm sure it's on Biden's list, just hasn't made it to the top.

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Instead of making it easier for Cubans to go to America, why not make it easier for Cubans to stay in Cuba? 

Just lift the 60-year-old illegal blockade, which is condemned every year by the United Nations General Assembly, usually by a margin of 188 to 2.

They just got the right to travel and you think they should be incentivized to stay at home? 

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24 minutes ago, fufkin said:
2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Instead of making it easier for Cubans to go to America, why not make it easier for Cubans to stay in Cuba? 

Just lift the 60-year-old illegal blockade, which is condemned every year by the United Nations General Assembly, usually by a margin of 188 to 2.

They just got the right to travel and you think they should be incentivized to stay at home? 

No, Fufkin.  I think that their neighbour should stop trying to starve them out of their home.  The vendetta has lasted sixty years, and it's time to stop bullying Cuba.

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No, Fufkin.  I think that their neighbour should stop trying to starve them out of their home.  The vendetta has lasted sixty years, and it's time to stop bullying Cuba.

edit: was quoting this from TL

 

So you're saying that the inability to trade with America equals starvation? 

They seem to have cultivated a fairly decent tourism based economy in the interim. A split economy, albeit. One which kind of has a dual currency for locals vs tourists. Two completely different pricing models based on the ability to pay. The ability to pay, as far as I know, does not extend to medicine which as far as I know is a freebie, and pretty good value from what I hear.

There's that old 'means of production' thing which is a central tenet to Marxism. In the command economy of Cuba over the last half plus century, that 'means of production' has essentially meant control of tourism. So if any foreign entity(U.S. excluded) wanted to inject capital into the economy, they were free to do so, just as long as the former benevolent despot and his brother got one half ownership. Not sure why or how an American embargo effects subsequent wealth distribution.

 

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43 minutes ago, fufkin said:

So you're saying that the inability to trade with America equals starvation? 

Not quite.  The inability to trade with your biggest neighbour is a severe handicap to the economy of any small country. Starvation has been the explicit aim of US policy since 1960: "to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government."  The USA's policy goal in Cuba has always been to restore the situation created in 1898, whereby Cuba was only nominally independent, and its economy was controlled by the USA.  That is why for example the Helms-Burton Act is so fixated on all the formerly American-owned property in Cuba which was seized in the revolution.

But what really makes the US embargo so cruel is the secondary boycott, which penalises non-Americans for trade with Cuba.  That's just gangsterism.  

As to the rest of your comments, Fufkin, the idea that either of the Castro brothers got an automatic share is fantasy.  You are confusing Cuba with one of the American-backed kleptocracies in Latin America.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Not quite.  The inability to trade with your biggest neighbour is a severe handicap to the economy of any small country. Starvation has been the explicit aim of US policy since 1960: "to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government."  The USA's policy goal in Cuba has always been to restore the situation created in 1898, whereby Cuba was only nominally independent, and its economy was controlled by the USA.  That is why for example the Helms-Burton Act is so fixated on all the formerly American-owned property in Cuba which was seized in the revolution.

But what really makes the US embargo so cruel is the secondary boycott, which penalises non-Americans for trade with Cuba.  That's just gangsterism.  

As to the rest of your comments, Fufkin, the idea that either of the Castro brothers got an automatic share is fantasy.  You are confusing Cuba with one of the American-backed kleptocracies in Latin America.

At least give me the credit of confusing it with a South American kleptocracy on the southern shore/coast of the Caribbean Sea.

Recent history shows that whatever penalty your talking about shouldn't be confused with open ice room for certain companies that wanted to do business with the much more minor share of the economy. 60% service and much smaller portion allotted to industry/mining

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1 hour ago, fufkin said:

At least give me the credit of confusing it with a South American kleptocracy on the southern shore/coast of the Caribbean Sea.

Fufkin, you are evading the simple fact that 98% of the world's countries oppose the embargo.  After 60 years, it is time for the USA to stop bullying Cuba and start letting Cuba decide its own future.

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5 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

No, Fufkin.  I think that their neighbour should stop trying to starve them out of their home.  The vendetta has lasted sixty years, and it's time to stop bullying Cuba.

There is no one else for Cuba to trade with?  The fault is not with the US it is with Communism.

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7 minutes ago, sailman said:
5 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

No, Fufkin.  I think that their neighbour should stop trying to starve them out of their home.  The vendetta has lasted sixty years, and it's time to stop bullying Cuba.

There is no one else for Cuba to trade with?  The fault is not with the US it is with Communism.

Not so, Sailman.  Communism did not impose the embargo.  The USA imposed the embargo, which is vastly more severe than the embargos it has imposed on any other country.

And Sailman, your question "is no one else for Cuba to trade with" is either ignorant or disingenuous.  The Helms-Burton Act created a secondary embargo, placing huge barriers on other countries trading with Cuba.

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BS.  The EU and South America trades with them.  The fault is not with the US, Cuba is a failed State because of Communism not because we will not trade with them.  Rather than making it easier for people to enter our country why not focus on the reason they are leaving?

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58 minutes ago, sailman said:

BS.  The EU and South America trades with them.  The fault is not with the US, Cuba is a failed State because of Communism not because we will not trade with them.  Rather than making it easier for people to enter our country why not focus on the reason they are leaving?

Sailman, the reason they are leaving is that their country has been under an economic blockade for sixty years, which has been designed "to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government".  That's a link to the original US State Dept Memorandum on the policy.

After sixty years of that policy, it's rank hypocrisy for Americans to claim that the problems are of Cuba's own making.

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45 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Sailman, the reason they are leaving is that their country has been under an economic blockade for sixty years, which has been designed "to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government".  That's a link to the original US State Dept Memorandum on the policy.

After sixty years of that policy, it's rank hypocrisy for Americans to claim that the problems are of Cuba's own making.

You can apologize for Communism all you want it doesn’t change the reality.

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30 minutes ago, sailman said:
1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Sailman, the reason they are leaving is that their country has been under an economic blockade for sixty years, which has been designed "to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government".  That's a link to the original US State Dept Memorandum on the policy.

After sixty years of that policy, it's rank hypocrisy for Americans to claim that the problems are of Cuba's own making.

You can apologize for Communism all you want it doesn’t change the reality.

I didn't "apologize for Communism".

The reality, Sailman, is that you are engaged in an exercise of denial and deflection from the fact that the USA has spent sixty years trying "to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government" in Cuba. 

Your attempts to claim that the problems in Cuba are homegrown are as dishonest as the thug who accepts no responsibility for the disastrous state of someone who they beat up.

Why are you dong this?

Do you think that all your denialism will make the history go away? 

Do you think that the State Dept memos won't exist if Sailman ignores them? 

Do you think that if you point in another direction, the Helms-Burton Act will become invisible?

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1 hour ago, sailman said:

You can apologize for Communism all you want it doesn’t change the reality.

Yeah. It's easier to talk about it like that.
That way, you don't have to admit that it is real people who are suffering.

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23 minutes ago, DavidC59 said:

Yeah. It's easier to talk about it like that.
That way, you don't have to admit that it is real people who are suffering.

Boo freaking hoo 

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18 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:
11 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

Planked with roofing tin?

1000w_q95.jpg

 

 

 

Edit-  is this also a proper rudder?

... What's it rate?  

I was wondering when that would come up.

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2 hours ago, sailman said:

You can apologize for Communism all you want it doesn’t change the reality.

If the US government was smart, which it very often is not, around 1970 it would have normalized relations with Cuba. Instead of hotels being developed by Canadian and European companies it could have been American. If the US was any good at using soft power, the forces of Hilton, Coca-Cola, Ford, and Disney would have destroyed, or at least dramatically watered down, Communism in Cuba.

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1 hour ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

If the US government was smart, which it very often is not, around 1970 it would have normalized relations with Cuba. Instead of hotels being developed by Canadian and European companies it could have been American. If the US was any good at using soft power, the forces of Hilton, Coca-Cola, Ford, and Disney would have destroyed, or at least dramatically watered down, Communism in Cuba.

Wait I thought no one was trading with Cuba?  How is that watering down working with China?

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This is really time to go to PA - every country that went to communism was ruled by corrupt dictators including Cuba. The missile crisis happened because we installed them in Turkey and so they retaliated. The average person affected has about as much say as citizens in the USA with the exception that in a few years we can pick someone else.  Sometimes it actually helps.

Funny that Vietnam is now a major trading partner with the US - if you check your foulies they most likely come from there. It's weird I know since what we know is what we are told. Threatening countries just doesn't work but certainly helps those who profit from it.

 

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Why is it that former enemies become better and closer friends than do “allies”?

might it be that each has seen the other acting under the worst of circumstances and “know what they’re made of”, to coin a phrase. Your “friends”,having never been put to the test, you’re not quite as sure of.

I started this as a sailing thread, but don’t mind it yielding a more complex discussion about how friends and so-called enemies relate to each other, whether as individuals or as states.

we know what these seven went through, yet we “have to” kick them back because of the States involved.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

Looks like they bought some Flexseal at Walmart. They musty have had some money. How many patreons do they have?   Why dont these people go to Haiti or Bahamas and be welcomed with open arms? What is AOC doing about this? What's it rate? 

They dont speak French, French Creole, or Bahamian English. But they do speak Spanish, as does the U.S.  Pretty simple really.

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7 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

Looks like they bought some Flexseal at Walmart. 

And that right there shows how little you understand. 

I have been to Cuba twice.  It is a magnificent place to visit and I found the locals charming, clever, ambitious and keen to re-establish relations with the US.  

The reason your statement is idiotic is because there is no Walmart in Cuba.  No company with any ties to the US can operate there.  So the hardware stores are local affairs that maybe procure goods from Mexico that in turn procures goods from a Spanish company that doesn't do business with the US.  

The US embargo of Cuba makes procurement of even the most common of everyday supplies incredibly complicated.  

As others state, the US relationship with Cuba is really, really weird.  

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58 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

They dont speak French, French Creole, or Bahamian English. But they do speak Spanish, as does the U.S.  Pretty simple really.

I've logged plenty of time in Miami. Cubans are smart and tough. Our equals in every way. And the women? It's like looking at fire.

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10 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

And the women? It's like looking at fire.

now there is prose at it's finest .

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18 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

No, Fufkin.  I think that their neighbour should stop trying to starve them out of their home.  The vendetta has lasted sixty years, and it's time to stop bullying Cuba.

This starvation concern of yours is mis placed. Cuba ranks better than the U.S. in food insecurity. Food insecurity in a branch plant economy that trades with the U.S. freely, Puerto Rico, is three times worse than in the U.S.

I mention Puerto Rico as a Caribbean nation that is clearly underserved by their trade relations with the U.S., and wish to highlight that repealing the embargo is not necessarily the white knight you seem to paint it as.

16 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

 

As to the rest of your comments, Fufkin, the idea that either of the Castro brothers got an automatic share is fantasy.  You are confusing Cuba with one of the American-backed kleptocracies in Latin America.

As it stands, a non-U.S. foreign entity that wants to do business with Cuba, essentially enters into a 49%/51% ownership/tax arrangement with the government and not individuals. I'm not confusing anything. Canadian companies have been successfully doing business with Cuba for decades. The main penalty is that executives have been prevented from travelling to the U.S., which was/is a penalty they chose to take in return for super normal profits for their home corporation. They don't effectively have the protection that a corporation enjoys in Canada, rather they enter into a co-operative agreement with the government and not individual citizens.  Its a risk that has paid off for some.

13 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Fufkin, you are evading the simple fact that 98% of the world's countries oppose the embargo.  After 60 years, it is time for the USA to stop bullying Cuba and start letting Cuba decide its own future.

What about the last 60 years has prevented the Cuban government from deciding their own future or the future of its people. They rank near the top in world literacy, education, have an incredible arts scene, have a bourgeoning tech scene, and produce some of the best athletes and musicians in the world. 

If it's the Cuban people you're talking about, and not the government, if you want them to have a say in their own future, maybe that starts at home, regardless of any embargo. Allowing athletes and musicians to keep a proper portion of their earnings abroad, and allowing individuals to strike ownership deals with foreign investors on their own, and not as a co-operative with majority government ownership might be a start.

**

Well that's it for politics how about a sailing story? Canada has long had a tourism pact with Cuba that allows Cubans to visit us on a limited basis. They have to try and try again to get a visa and then under strict conditions can visit for a short time. They need a sponsor. Some friends of mine visit Cuba a couple of times a year and have developed some great friendships so, one day they called me up and told me they had a family of three visiting them and could I take them sailing. 

So I took them on a little swimming party in the middle of Lake Ontario. They had a blast and we shared a few jokes about how the U.S. was only a couple of hours down wind if they wanted to make a break for it.

That's when they mentioned that they'd never been on a boat before. That was crazy to think about. 

Anyway, after a great afternoon,  we came back ashore, they were on their way, enjoyed a few more days in a big city, and went back to Cuba. Just because some people have a burning desire equate reaching U.S. shores with a better life, doesn't necessarily mean that is some kind of universal obsession among Cuban citizens. 

 

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4 minutes ago, fufkin said:
18 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

No, Fufkin.  I think that their neighbour should stop trying to starve them out of their home.  The vendetta has lasted sixty years, and it's time to stop bullying Cuba.

This starvation concern of yours is mis placed. Cuba ranks better than the U.S. in food insecurity. Food insecurity in a branch plant economy that trades with the U.S. freely, Puerto Rico, is three times worse than in the U.S.

Fufkin, it's bizarre to watch such persistent denial of the fact that the US policy goal is "to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government".

The fact that US policy has not worked as intended does not alter the internet.

7 minutes ago, fufkin said:

As it stands, a non-U.S. foreign entity that wants to do business with Cuba, essentially enters into a 49%/51% ownership/tax arrangement with the government and not individuals.

Exactly.  An arrangement with the govt.   Not, as you previously claimed, with two individuals.

18 hours ago, fufkin said:

So if any foreign entity(U.S. excluded) wanted to inject capital into the economy, they were free to do so, just as long as the former benevolent despot and his brother got one half ownership.

 

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1 minute ago, TwoLegged said:

Fufkin, it's bizarre to watch such persistent denial of the fact that the US policy goal is "to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government".

The fact that US policy has not worked as intended does not alter the internet.

Exactly.  An arrangement with the govt.   Not, as you previously claimed, with two individuals.

 

I'm not denying anything and not once have offered my own personal opinion of the Helms Burton act or the previous embargos it is based on. 

As it stands the U.S. efforts to effect regime change via embargo has failed, Cuba has found its way, and can produce education and nutrition stats that are better than that of the big bully you say has 'starved them out of their homes'.

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8 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

If the US government was smart, which it very often is not, around 1970 it would have normalized relations with Cuba. Instead of hotels being developed by Canadian and European companies it could have been American. If the US was any good at using soft power, the forces of Hilton, Coca-Cola, Ford, and Disney would have destroyed, or at least dramatically watered down, Communism in Cuba.

Why this obsession with using power of any type against Cuba?  Why not just back off and leave Cuba to decide Cuba's own future, rather than jut looking for a different way to destroy another country's system of government?

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3 minutes ago, fufkin said:

As it stands the U.S. efforts to effect regime change via embargo has failed, Cuba has found its way, and can produce education and nutrition stats that are better than that of the big bully you say has 'starved them out of their homes'.

It's a bit more complex than that, Fufkin.

Cuba has very effective medicine and education because it provides those services collectively as basic human needs, rather than following the US model of structuring them as opportunities for private profit where needs are at best secondary.   Cuba has indeed done this despite the embargo, because neither is much effected by the embargo.

However, outside of public services, the US embargo has had a severe impact on the Cuban economy, by erecting high barriers to development of export industries. The impossibility of economic development is one of the reasons why people flee, because the embargo prevents Cuba offering more than subsistence.

The other factor is that six decades of American aggression pushed the Cuban regime into a paranoid, defensive stance with some repression.  This is not paranoia: a huge, powerful neighbour has been actively trying to overthrow the Cuban state, and restore something closer to the appalling Batista regime.  Faced with that sort of threat, most countries adopt some sort of repression , and the USA's history of internal repression in response to perceived external threats is pretty ugly.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Why this obsession with using power of any type against Cuba?  Why not just back off and leave Cuba to decide Cuba's own future, rather than jut looking for a different way to destroy another country's system of government?

I didn't say that the use of soft power is good. bad, or indifferent - just that it would have been effective. The US did not put decades of economic sanctions on Viet Nam and the country is doing quite well. Same thing probably would have happened with Cuba. Methinks you are too quick to take umbrage and assign motives to others. Perhaps you should think about your own motivations in the posts you make.

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26 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

I didn't say that the use of soft power is good. bad, or indifferent - just that it would have been effective. The US did not put decades of economic sanctions on Viet Nam and the country is doing quite well. Same thing probably would have happened with Cuba. Methinks you are too quick to take umbrage and assign motives to others. Perhaps you should think about your own motivations in the posts you make.

Bristol, a suggestion like that is not value-neutral.  Proposing an alternative way of exerting power over another country presupposes that it is desirable and appropriate to exert such power over another country.   

Thanks for clarifying that you were not actually advocating any such path ... but it would have been better to include the disclaimer alongside the suggestion.

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

It's a bit more complex than that, Fufkin.

Cuba has very effective medicine and education because it provides those services collectively as basic human needs, rather than following the US model of structuring them as opportunities for private profit where needs are at best secondary.   Cuba has indeed done this despite the embargo, because neither is much effected by the embargo.

However, outside of public services, the US embargo has had a severe impact on the Cuban economy, by erecting high barriers to development of export industries. The impossibility of economic development is one of the reasons why people flee, because the embargo prevents Cuba offering more than subsistence.

The other factor is that six decades of American aggression pushed the Cuban regime into a paranoid, defensive stance with some repression.  This is not paranoia: a huge, powerful neighbour has been actively trying to overthrow the Cuban state, and restore something closer to the appalling Batista regime.  Faced with that sort of threat, most countries adopt some sort of repression , and the USA's history of internal repression in response to perceived external threats is pretty ugly.

You're right, it is a bit more complex than that. Cuba has excellent medicine and education because after the revolution it became more of a priority than it was for the Batista regime which prioritized consumerism and was tolerant of extreme income distribution inequality. Nowadays, the vast majority of Cubans own their own homes and don't have a mortgage, yet come up a little short on modern day consumer items. About a decade ago the average monthly wage was 19 bucks, not paid directly to a worker by a firm, but to the government, which would then convert at par US dollars for domestic pesos and then remit to the worker, thereby effectively excluding domestic workers from the tourist economy(at least officially). That minuscule wage however, covered basics when spent in the domestic peso economy, and when combined with education, medicine and the other elements that 78%  of GDP that goes to public spending can provide, put the average citizen well above subsistence, but still unable to amass wealth by a foreign currency conversion or metric.

Yes, the embargo effects the economy, but  by a lot of measurements, things like %debt to GDP(pretty good at somewhere in the 30 percentile range), total exports as a world rank, (middle of the pack in the 70-80 range in world country rank)...Cuba isn't doing so bad for a smallish country. Their biggest trading partner is Canada, but they've enjoyed some much more supportive trade agreements with allies, which when subsidies were removed, their economy suffered. Most notably, when the Soviet Union withdrew supportive trading agreements, and more recently Venezuelan agreements faltering have effected the economy negatively. You mentioned exports. One of the most favourable export agreements, while it worked was the doctors for oil agreement with Venezuela. Some 30,000 doctors matriculated through Venezuela during this period. 

You seem to mention that the U.S. is responsible for Cuban paranoia without actually mentioning the values of its former benevolent despot, who perhaps would've resisted the incursion of U.S. consumerism at all costs, which the lifting of the embargo would surely usher in. Of course there's that sticky issue of an individual citizen being allowed to partner with foreign capital partners and form a corporate entity, which is still not legal. There is also, within the doctrine of the Cuban constitution, an extreme sensitivity to unjust enrichment, or income inequality. This is a matter of domestic political and moral values, and not necessarily subject to the whims of a foreign entity interested in either regime change or property reparations.

That certain Cuban citizens don't wish to be subject to this value system, that they might believe in individual reward maintaining some sort of independence to the service of the collective, I would humbly suggest is a bigger factor for an individual fleeing the country than the % burden on the economy that the embargo creates. 

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Bristol, a suggestion like that is not value-neutral.  Proposing an alternative way of exerting power over another country presupposes that it is desirable and appropriate to exert such power over another country.   

Thanks for clarifying that you were not actually advocating any such path ... but it would have been better to include the disclaimer alongside the suggestion.

You shouldn't rush to judgement, you seem to have a very quick trigger. My suggestion can be entirely value-neutral, it is an observation not a suggestion since it should have happened in 1970 or so to be effective. In fact, it would be easy to suggest that my comments were Cuba positive since the Cuban people would have been better off with the application of soft power than hard(er) power as has been the case. The US treated Viet Nam, a country that defeated the US in a brutal war, better than Cuba.

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1 hour ago, fufkin said:

the Batista regime which prioritized consumerism and was tolerant of extreme income distribution inequality.

Fufkin, that massively misrepresents the economics of the US-backed Batista dictatorship.  Far from neutrally "tolerating" inequality, the Batista regime was designed and run a massive kleptocracy, in which the mafia was welcomed.  By the late 1950s, U.S. financial interests owned 90% of Cuban mines, 80% of its public utilities, 50% of its railways, 40% of its sugar production and 25% of its bank deposits.  Basically, the country had become a racket to keep cash flowing to the USA, and to provide a venues for the casinos and brothels which flourished under Batista.

In 1960, US Senator John F Kennedy noted that:

At the beginning of 1959 United States companies owned about 40 percent of the Cuban sugar lands—almost all the cattle ranches—90 percent of the mines and mineral concessions—80 percent of the utilities—practically all the oil industry—and supplied two-thirds of Cuba's imports.

US policy since then has been aimed at restoring American ownership of the assets which were seized in the revolution.

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8 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

You shouldn't rush to judgement, you seem to have a very quick trigger. My suggestion can be entirely value-neutral, it is an observation not a suggestion since it should have happened in 1970 or so to be effective.

On the contrary, Bristol, I think the problem is you are slow to check the assumptions behind your own position.

A comparison of the merits of different forms of foreign power to change Cuba is an implicit acceptance that some form of externally-driven change is desirable.

8 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

 In fact, it would be easy to suggest that my comments were Cuba positive since the Cuban people would have been better off with the application of soft power than hard(er) power as has been the case. 

You are still missing my point: that your comments are all predicated on the assumption of the USA applying power to change Cuba.

Given that previous American soft power produced the appalling Batista regime, I don't see any reason to believe that any use American power in Cuba will benefit the ordinary people of Cuba.

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I wasn't saying that externally-driven change should be, or should have been, applied to Cuba, rather that if the US did want to do so the approach they chose was not the most effective one - as we have seen. Not everyone is an advocate for one side or another. I don't have a 'position', I am not even an American. Sometimes one can be merely an observer.

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you think trumpers are rightwing nuts ?

the first batch of cuban refugees in miami post castro were 10 times worse then the Q faction of trumpers

and they have NOT got much better over the last 60 years just more numerous and vocal now over a million of them here

cubans turned miami into a third world rightwing city where english is seldom heard

 

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18 hours ago, ROADKILL666 said:

If they have just got to the beach and stepped foot on shore they would have not been sent back.

I don’t think that policy is in effect any longer. When I lived in the Keys, a few boats made it to our island one night. We gave them some water because they drank all theirs and were VERY dehydrated. Someone called immigration and a number of agents arrived and took them away in a big immigration department bus to a detention center for processing. They got to stay here.


I think they would be returned to Cuba now. 

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On 2/21/2021 at 8:01 AM, nota said:

you think trumpers are rightwing nuts ?

the first batch of cuban refugees in miami post castro were 10 times worse then the Q faction of trumpers

and they have NOT got much better over the last 60 years just more numerous and vocal now over a million of them here

cubans turned miami into a third world rightwing city where english is seldom heard

 

I generally stay out of these political and frequently pro/anti US arguments but I do think this Is BS. I’ve been in Miami many times and, as far as I can tell, we got the best of the deal with the Cubans who come to S Florida. Conservative? Sure! Maybe because they got a good look at extreme socialism. But very successful and extremely self sufficient. I vote for more of them. 

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On 2/20/2021 at 6:11 PM, TwoLegged said:

It's a bit more complex than that, Fufkin.

Cuba has very effective medicine and education because it provides those services collectively as basic human needs, rather than following the US model of structuring them as opportunities for private profit where needs are at best secondary.   Cuba has indeed done this despite the embargo, because neither is much effected by the embargo.

However, outside of public services, the US embargo has had a severe impact on the Cuban economy, by erecting high barriers to development of export industries. The impossibility of economic development is one of the reasons why people flee, because the embargo prevents Cuba offering more than subsistence.

The other factor is that six decades of American aggression pushed the Cuban regime into a paranoid, defensive stance with some repression.  This is not paranoia: a huge, powerful neighbour has been actively trying to overthrow the Cuban state, and restore something closer to the appalling Batista regime.  Faced with that sort of threat, most countries adopt some sort of repression , and the USA's history of internal repression in response to perceived external threats is pretty ugly.

I'll focus on one statement that you made here: They have effective medicine and education. Medicine? Ever read about their slave doctor program? Medications are in very short supply. Don't believe that Michael Moore movie. Education is fine if you don't mind indoctrination and re-education camps. Shooting journalists.

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I saw several boats made of garbage and one decent wooden rowboat used to make the journey in the Keys. They are left where they are as there is no paperwork associated with them and some are painted wild Cuban colors and look good as beachfront decorations. As far as US/Cuba relations go, I was surprised that my Cuban friends in Miami were against Obama allowing tourism to begin. They felt that it was financing an oppressive regime. I thought they would have liked the idea of free travel to Cuba, but I am ignorant of the deep understanding they have of the situation. 

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1 hour ago, gn4478 said:

I'll focus on one statement that you made here: They have effective medicine and education. Medicine? Ever read about their slave doctor program? Medications are in very short supply. Don't believe that Michael Moore movie. Education is fine if you don't mind indoctrination and re-education camps. Shooting journalists.

Medication is indeed in short supply, because there ha been an embargo for sixty years and a secondary embargo for 25 years.  The embargos are intended to cause such crises:  "to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government".

As for indoctrination, I suggest that in the glasshouse where kids are forced pledge allegiance to a flag and half of the political spectrum is missing because state persecution shut it down, people should refrain from throwing stones.

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1 minute ago, TwoLegged said:

Medication is indeed in short supply, because there ha been an embargo for sixty years and a secondary embargo for 25 years.  The embargos are intended to cause such crises:  "to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government".

As for indoctrination, I suggest that in the glasshouse where kids are forced pledge allegiance to a flag and half of the political spectrum is missing because state persecution shut it down, people should refrain from throwing stones.

If you are comparing the US education system and freedom to Cuba, you are smoking some bad shit.  Cuba is a repressive government that kills and tortures its own citizens for political speech. Kids are not forced to stand and say the pledge of allegiance. I am no fan of the cancel culture that has developed, but we are not lining up to shoot republicans and libertarians as of yet. The Castros are thugs.

 

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8 minutes ago, gn4478 said:

Cuba is a repressive government that kills and tortures its own citizens for political speech.

The United States runs a global kidnap and torture program, with secret prisons, and kills its own citizens at a world-leading rate.  People in glasshouses etc

10 minutes ago, gn4478 said:

Kids are not forced to stand and say the pledge of allegiance.

In theory, the right to refuse was acknowledged 50 years after the pledge started.  But it is still routine for whole class to be led in reciting a political chant, and dissenters are frequently persecuted, e.g. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/18/us/florida-pledge-of-allegiance-altercation-arrest/index.html, where a kid was arrested for being "disruptuve" for expressing a different political view to the view in the pledge

16 minutes ago, gn4478 said:

The Castros are thugs.

The United States has the world's highest incarceration rate, by a significant margin: https://www.statista.com/statistics/262962/countries-with-the-most-prisoners-per-100-000-inhabitants/.

The United States has attacked countries all around the globe, killing millions, and it has backed vicious dictators in other countries, killing millions more.    People in glasshouses etc

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11 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

The United States runs a global kidnap and torture program, with secret prisons, and kills its own citizens at a world-leading rate.  People in glasshouses etc

In theory, the right to refuse was acknowledged 50 years after the pledge started.  But it is still routine for whole class to be led in reciting a political chant, and dissenters are frequently persecuted, e.g. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/18/us/florida-pledge-of-allegiance-altercation-arrest/index.html, where a kid was arrested for being "disruptuve" for expressing a different political view to the view in the pledge

The United States has the world's highest incarceration rate, by a significant margin: https://www.statista.com/statistics/262962/countries-with-the-most-prisoners-per-100-000-inhabitants/.

The United States has attacked countries all around the globe, killing millions, and it has backed vicious dictators in other countries, killing millions more.    People in glasshouses etc

Apples and oranges. You hate America. Thats clear. God bless you.

Can you give an example of a good country in your opinion, other than Cuba?

 

 

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21 minutes ago, gn4478 said:

You hate America. Thats clear. God bless you.

Why on earth do you try to twist my words like that?

I don't hate America at all. I just wish America would stop being so violent, shut its Gulag, make sure all its people have food and healthcare ... and cut the propaganda machine that has kids chanting loyalty slogans like North Koreans.

24 minutes ago, gn4478 said:

Can you give an example of a good country in your opinion, other than Cuba?

You are making assumptions.  I don't regard Cuba as a good country, and have not described it as such.  Cuba is a fairly screwed-up place which has managed to be a lot less screwed up than when it was a run by an American puppet as a big mafia whorehouse.  But Cuba has been under sustained attack for sixty years, and all it has managed is partial damage limitation.

If you want a good country, find one which doesn't use violence at home or abroad, which has minimal levels of imprisonment, and where everyone has food, housing and medical care.  Norway and Iceland do much better than average on most measures on that list, and Costa Rica also has some good indicators.

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cubans in miami shot and killed with bombs other cubans who were deemed not rightwing enough ie moder-rats

while commie cubans invaded african country's to support wars of so called liberation  

bay of pigs CIA cubans did the watergate break in and the 80's cocaine distribution for st ron of raygun to finance the contras

and the miami river cops who killed a bunch of people and stole tons of cocaine were all cubans

lovely bunch of people I just wish they were else where and not in my home town

and support all efforts to limit any more of them here

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Why on earth do you try to twist my words like that?

I don't hate America at all. I just wish America would stop being so violent, shut its Gulag, make sure all its people have food and healthcare ... and cut the propaganda machine that has kids chanting loyalty slogans like North Koreans.

You are making assumptions.  I don't regard Cuba as a good country, and have not described it as such.  Cuba is a fairly screwed-up place which has managed to be a lot less screwed up than when it was a run by an American puppet as a big mafia whorehouse.  But Cuba has been under sustained attack for sixty years, and all it has managed is partial damage limitation.

If you want a good country, find one which doesn't use violence at home or abroad, which has minimal levels of imprisonment, and where everyone has food, housing and medical care.  Norway and Iceland do much better than average on most measures on that list, and Costa Rica also has some good indicators.

Costa Rica is special.

(Something about American money involved there. And bonefish).

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Fact is, the US has traded with Cuba, despite the embargo, we've sold them a few boat loads of wheat , which they needed.

There is not much back and forth but it does happen.

Their entire fishing industry is for export. Very little seafood to be found in Cuba, money is made by selling it to other countries. 

Citizens are not allowed to even be seen with a lobster.

 Cuba is a beautiful country and the people are lovely, curious, educated and gentle... from what I could gather.

One of the best thing about such places (similar to, say, Ljubljana ) is the  lack of American tourists and Americanization in general,

Capitalism would ruin it, definitely make it ugly or at least wouldn't save it. 

That said,  I never felt happier to be an American, than when I was in Cuba, 

since I have the freedom to leave Cuba and go just about anywhere in the world ....a good thing.

They are behind the times, they have NOTHING  but are very resourceful.  Hence the boat which started this thread.

I would hope America would accept any Cuban citizen who manages to get here,  but understandably no one wants to encourage dangerous crossings.

How about:  for every one Cuban citizen we will send you 10 Trump supporters?

 

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15 hours ago, fastyacht said:

 

Kinda catchy, but got monotonous toward the end.

Audience looked like their previous gig was watching Monty Python

And one of the models hat learly on looked like "We are Devo"

 

They're playing towards Cuba's large German population?  

;-)

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On 2/19/2021 at 8:19 PM, Dex Sawash said:

Planked with roofing tin?

1000w_q95.jpg

 

 

 

Edit-  is this also a proper rudder?

Sure! I've done one myself on the beach at Foxy's.

Chained-to-a-Tree Boat [Archive] - The WoodenBoat Forum

There is even a book on the subject.

top 5 biographies by Robb White - How to Build a Tin Canoe

The trick is to use plenty of roofing tar as you can see the Cubans have done.

Corrugated Iron – Boats!?! – The Museum of Thin Objects

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 Not many designs live so close to this forum's name.

Cuba sailors, the real sailing anarchists. 

......but heck, look at all the added flotation,, and draft stripes on the sail!    They have many 1st world designs looking on in shame!   :rolleyes:

image.png

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This boat should be on display somewhere prominent so that folk appreciate what theyve got more and what is possible if/when needed and theres no app or website for guidance. Good on them for surviving.
Fuck professional politicians worldwide. Soft handed power gimps.

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13 hours ago, FixinGit said:

This boat should be on display somewhere prominent so that folk appreciate what theyve got more and what is possible if/when needed and theres no app or website for guidance. Good on them for surviving.
Fuck professional politicians worldwide. Soft handed power gimps.

Agree 100% in a perfect world. In the actual world many readers see a boatload of spics hoping to get free stuff. 

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6 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Agree 100% in a perfect world. In the actual world many readers see a boatload of spics hoping to get free stuff. 

When surveyed, 100% of voters see political buildings full of power gimps hoping to get free stuff... The difference is alot of illegal immigrants dont get away with it..

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