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964racer

Piecemeal rod rigging replacement

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My rod rigging (Ericson 33) is visually in good condition but because of it's age is coming up on a replacement. Assuming that the navtec hardware that connects to the rods (at mast and at turnbuckle) is good,  I am thinking that I could replace a few shrouds at a time by removing them, taking measurements and ordering them premade and then replacing myself without taking the mast down .  It may seem like a tedious way to do it, but if I go to a rigging shop, the boat will be out of commission for quite a while and the cost is $$$.   Any thoughts ? 

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Yes, can't see why it would be any different than doing it the same way as with wire. Depending on the rig stability, turn around time, and weather (is it going to be really windy?) you might be able to remove all the lowers say from a single spreader rig and still have it stable enough to stay up

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Certainly can be done that way. If you are trying to maximize re-use of parts that’s not the best way, if I’m understanding your methods. I’d definitely ask whichever rig outfit you’re thinking of using about their thoughts. Any measurement issues may be all on you. 
 

If the headstay is getting replaced and it’s an older furler, you might need one end headed onsite. 

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I have flown overseas with a single pieces in a large coil. As baggage...recreational equipment. Discontinuous rig. Simple to replace IF the various pieces happen to come apart easily from the bosun’s chair. Some parts need heat to come apart on account of the thread locker. My spreaders need to be slid away from the mast to free the top ends of diagonal pieces. That one can do that on an old rig is far from a given. Loosening the shrouds to do that makes a wiggly noodle outa the mast. Fun stuff.

A keel stepped mast should stand up fine in calm water with no rigging at all. After getting the parts (during the Navtec parts debacle) the yard did everything in a few hours...unstepped. They had done it hundreds of times...14 individual rods, I think. 

Spec’ing out the parts is a bit of a chore. As well as noodling the new rod headed lengths. 

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15 hours ago, El Borracho said:

I have flown overseas with a single pieces in a large coil. As baggage...recreational equipment. Discontinuous rig. Simple to replace IF the various pieces happen to come apart easily from the bosun’s chair. Some parts need heat to come apart on account of the thread locker. My spreaders need to be slid away from the mast to free the top ends of diagonal pieces. That one can do that on an old rig is far from a given. Loosening the shrouds to do that makes a wiggly noodle outa the mast. Fun stuff.

A keel stepped mast should stand up fine in calm water with no rigging at all. After getting the parts (during the Navtec parts debacle) the yard did everything in a few hours...unstepped. They had done it hundreds of times...14 individual rods, I think. 

Spec’ing out the parts is a bit of a chore. As well as noodling the new rod headed lengths. 

I think I'm convinced it should be done at the yard and pull the mast (it is keel stepped btw).   I  recently had a rigger recently go aloft and check all the rod connections/terminations (rotating ones etc.) and clean spreaders, replace boots.  He said that my spreaders were attached with the nylon washers which he thought was a good indication - that whoever worked on it last actually cared about doing it right (boat is 1982).  I had another rigger earlier this year give me a quote of 7K to replace all the rod rigging - that included all the fittings. He did express a lot of concern about the availability of navtec parts and it almost seemed like he wasn't interested in doing the job for that reason  (maybe I  just need to get more estimates).  My rig is pretty big for the boat size (550 sq ft of sail area, 300 sq ft main  fractional rig) and I have two swept spreaders, so maybe 7K is not unreasonable for the rod rigging (?).  I would still need to also replace headstay and backstay wire rigging as well  (I hope not the furler but who knows).

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Hayn is making Navtec parts, they bought the IP, and are good about having stuff available, so not an issue. 
7k seems reasonable. BSI might save you a few dollars. 
if the furler works well and is original to the boat it will be a tough call, although I think you would notice some issues with a furler that was 30+ years (loose joints, broken welds, other issues)

pulling the rig will make it easier for certain, and if the rig hasn’t been out in a bit, it would be a good idea. 

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2 hours ago, 964racer said:

I think I'm convinced it should be done at the yard ... almost seemed like he wasn't interested in doing the job for that reason  (maybe I  just need to get more estimates). 

Check with the major famous yards you have. They will not be shy about the job and can do the work without screwing around. Dunno about the price...I review and sign yard my bills with my eyes closed. 

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Any super compelling reason to go with rod?  Why not switch to dynaform wire and get 95% of rods advantages, with cost and fitting advantages of wire?  It’s not like you’re constrained by any OD rules...

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3 hours ago, Crash said:

Any super compelling reason to go with rod?  Why not switch to dynaform wire and get 95% of rods advantages, with cost and fitting advantages of wire?  It’s not like you’re constrained by any OD rules...

I'll have to check that out. My inclination was to just go with what was already there (plug and play) and avoid any retrofitting/hole drilling to adapt the mast to something different.   I did look into dyneema standing rigging (for about 5 minutes) and decided it's not for me, although I know of at least one Ericson owner that seems to have had some success with it and did the installation himself. 

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3 hours ago, Crash said:

Any super compelling reason to go with rod?  Why not switch to dynaform wire and get 95% of rods advantages, with cost and fitting advantages of wire?  It’s not like you’re constrained by any OD rules...

Depending on who you talk to...our 35'er was going to be $9K plus plus to switch from rod to wire. I'm currently looking for a rigger that isn't quite so proud of their billing.

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24 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Depending on who you talk to...our 35'er was going to be $9K plus plus to switch from rod to wire. I'm currently looking for a rigger that isn't quite so proud of their billing.

I investigated going to wire... To get the same level of strength/stiffness as your rod rig, the wire is going to be heavier.  I already have a tippy boat for SH, so I want to keep weight aloft to a minimum.

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Around here the process goes like this

** Talk to rigger about the plan

** rigger evaluates the job and makes certain all the materials are in stock

* appointment is made

* project is done in a day or two 

Unless there are unforeseen problems and special parts have to be ordered or bade in a machine shop

or the biggest damn cold mass in 200 years slams the area and everything grinds to a complete stop for a week

 

..... in which case.... who gives a fuck??? Nobody was going to sail anyway 

 

 

 

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9k is a very high price for a small boat 

Rod is not expensive , the fittings are 

its not possible to give an accurate estimate without fist examining the fittings 

labour , when disassembling a mast that is long past it’s service interval , is also expensive . Drilling out and repairing fasteners takes time and skill 

replacing standing rigging while the mast is still in the boat is a fools game 

don’t do it 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Depending on who you talk to...our 35'er was going to be $9K plus plus to switch from rod to wire. I'm currently looking for a rigger that isn't quite so proud of their billing.

The biggest hurdle with switching from rod to wire is if the rod has stemballs. Wire stemballs won’t typically fit in rod stemballs seats due to size issues. But a pair of tangs can be made so the wire then goes to eyes or forks. Just a little machine work. 
 

I know a few C&C landfall 38s that went to wire and it was well south of 9k

 

 

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If memory serves your mast has these fittings image.jpeg.e02332dff31ebf0a407d21aea40c8795.jpeg Sometimes they come apart cleanly, other times you will be filling up the swear jaw. The big problem is the threaded barrel joining these was often an aluminum piece. 

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Rod rigging can be reheaded (assuming the turnbuckles have enough adjustment remaining).  Find a proper Navtec qualified rigger and ask.

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27 minutes ago, ctutmark said:

If memory serves your mast has these fittings image.jpeg.e02332dff31ebf0a407d21aea40c8795.jpeg Sometimes they come apart cleanly, other times you will be filling up the swear jaw. The big problem is the threaded barrel joining these was often an aluminum piece. 

They normally come apart 

one side is set into lock tight , the other side is bedded into an assembly paste like tefgel 

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3 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

They normally come apart 

one side is set into lock tight , the other side is bedded into an assembly paste like tefgel 

You are assuming that the original person took those steps.  I have seen plenty that were not assembled correctly. 

Just like the advice  that you can re-head/reuse rods, all well and good if the sections don't have things like spreader bends. Re-heading screws up the location of the spreader bends 

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4 hours ago, mgs said:

The biggest hurdle with switching from rod to wire is if the rod has stemballs. Wire stemballs won’t typically fit in rod stemballs seats due to size issues. But a pair of tangs can be made so the wire then goes to eyes or forks. Just a little machine work. 
 

I know a few C&C landfall 38s that went to wire and it was well south of 9k

 

 

We have a sistership a few docks down who converted for less than half the price I was quoted.

Actually, the first quote I got, after a rigger went aloft for a look, was $4500. Once I expressed interest in going ahead, that doubled and I was warned it was an open checkbook event. I demurred. I had heard some stories from friends who found out what "open checkbook event" really means with that company. Final quote for one was $14,000 for rerigging a big schooner. He was handed a bill for over $35,000 by the time they finished. I should have figured it out earlier, the rig check came in double what I was quoted.

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7 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

We have a sistership a few docks down who converted for less than half the price I was quoted.

Actually, the first quote I got, after a rigger went aloft for a look, was $4500. Once I expressed interest in going ahead, that doubled and I was warned it was an open checkbook event. I demurred. I had heard some stories from friends who found out what "open checkbook event" really means with that company. Final quote for one was $14,000 for rerigging a big schooner. He was handed a bill for over $35,000 by the time they finished. I should have figured it out earlier, the rig check came in double what I was quoted.

That’s pretty aggressive. You’d think someone could only pull that sort of behavior a couple times before business dries up. 

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34 minutes ago, mgs said:

That’s pretty aggressive. You’d think someone could only pull that sort of behavior a couple times before business dries up. 

It's not easy to find a rigger with time to spare over here on the mainland.  Probably the same or worse on the island. 

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Sounds like an opportunity for someone 

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10 hours ago, ctutmark said:

If memory serves your mast has these fittings image.jpeg.e02332dff31ebf0a407d21aea40c8795.jpeg Sometimes they come apart cleanly, other times you will be filling up the swear jaw. The big problem is the threaded barrel joining these was often an aluminum piece. 

Here's what my rigger friend told me about these connections.  They can be dangerous, and years ago Navtev was replacing them for free.  The sharp edge at the bottom of the slot will impinge on the top fitting of the shroud as the mast works fore and aft in a seaway.  Small notches will develop where those edges impact the shroud top.  Those notches don't need to be big to induce a stress concentration at a very bad place.  In addition to axial stress along the shroud, if the mast works in a seaway, bending can also take place at the connection, loading the shroud past its capacity.  

I replaced my lowers last spring that had these connections.  There was a small mark at the above mentioned spot, definitely caused by that edge of the connector.  I'd get rid of em.

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@964racer

my curiosity is killing me. I have some questions about fair and reasonable pricing:

* Do you think a person who is sufficiently capable of self supervision such that he can be trusted to evaluate and re-rig your mast should make more annually or less than you do in your occupation? 

* How much do you think a fully qualified rigger should make per year? 
 

* Should Riggers have health insurance?

* should riggers be able to save for retirement 

* Should a rigger give you a lower price because your boat is an older boat?

* Should new tires cost less for old cars. 
 

* Should a rigger charge enough so he can afford sufficient insurance to cover the cost of repairs and personal injuries if his new rig fails? 
 

* are you starting to believe I am sick and tired of price complaints from ignorant assholes who would need thirty years of intensive training and a 2 million dollar investment to have any chance of replacing me as the “guy who takes care of all the boats?”...... and who still couldn't replace me properly..... 

 

if I get the slightest inkling some jackass is coming to my shop because he hopes to get a lower price, I pretty much quit responding to his inquiries. 
Sailboat maintenance isn’t like brain surgery. You can’t go to tech school for a few years,  hang up a sign to hang on your wall, and then start PRACTICING.

 

You mentioned doing it yourself. 
 Sailboat repair is a lot like legal defense. 
 

A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client,

 

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9 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

@964racer

my curiosity is killing me. I have some questions about fair and reasonable pricing:

* Do you think a person who is sufficiently capable of self supervision such that he can be trusted to evaluate and re-rig your mast should make more annually or less than you do in your occupation? 

* How much do you think a fully qualified rigger should make per year? 
 

* Should Riggers have health insurance?

* should riggers be able to save for retirement 

* Should a rigger give you a lower price because your boat is an older boat?

* Should new tires cost less for old cars. 
 

* Should a rigger charge enough so he can afford sufficient insurance to cover the cost of repairs and personal injuries if his new rig fails? 
 

* are you starting to believe I am sick and tired of price complaints from ignorant assholes who would need thirty years of intensive training and a 2 million dollar investment to have any chance of replacing me as the “guy who takes care of all the boats?”...... and who still couldn't replace me properly..... 

 

if I get the slightest inkling some jackass is coming to my shop because he hopes to get a lower price, I pretty much quit responding to his inquiries. 
Sailboat maintenance isn’t like brain surgery. You can’t go to tech school for a few years,  hang up a sign to hang on your wall, and then start PRACTICING.

 

You mentioned doing it yourself. 
 Sailboat repair is a lot like legal defense. 
 

A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client,

 

Yup 

the way  it works is that when I come face to face with a  difficult , know  it all client,  I double the estimate 

if the punter takes this padded  estimate I suffer thru the project    , stockpile  the extra profit , then pass this  cash bonanza  onto  my first class clients . 

First class clients always get the best quality price and are the core of your business 

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2 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Yup 

the way  it works is that when I come face to face with a  difficult , know  it all client,  I double the estimate 

if the punter takes this padded  estimate I suffer thru the project    , stockpile  the extra profit , then pass this  cash bonanza  onto  my first class clients . 

First class clients always get the best quality price and are the core of your business 

 

On 2/21/2021 at 3:24 AM, slug zitski said:

9k is a very high price for a small boat 

Rod is not expensive , the fittings are 

its not possible to give an accurate estimate without fist examining the fittings 

labour , when disassembling a mast that is long past it’s service interval , is also expensive . Drilling out and repairing fasteners takes time and skill 

replacing standing rigging while the mast is still in the boat is a fools game 

don’t do it 

 

 

I did get a similar estimate for my boat  that included replacement of the navtec fittings.   My forestay and backstay are wire.  The rigger gave me the vibe that he wasn't really interested in the job and it was going to take him a month or two to do it (due to his uncertainty about availability of navtec parts and that he was busy with other stuff), so I have continuing to look around. Maybe I was one of the clients getting the padding ? :-)  If I could find someone I trust with lots of experience in the navtec stuff and could plan the project and get it done in a few days (or even a week or two) once he is ready, that would be ideal.  

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13 minutes ago, 964racer said:

 

I did get a similar estimate for my boat  that included replacement of the navtec fittings.   My forestay and backstay are wire.  The rigger gave me the vibe that he wasn't really interested in the job and it was going to take him a month or two to do it (due to his uncertainty about availability of navtec parts and that he was busy with other stuff), so I have continuing to look around. Maybe I was one of the clients getting the padding ? :-)  If I could find someone I trust with lots of experience in the navtec stuff and could plan the project and get it done in a few days (or even a week or two) once he is ready, that would be ideal.  

These things happen 

several estimates clarify things 

unfortunately some locations don’t have an abundance  of capable pro rigging shops 

I recently did a rod replacement on a 40 footer 

7.5 k

BSI rod 

unstep , rod replaced , 95 percent of terminal fittings saved , mast horse rental , three weeks shipyard mast storage , mast stepped , dockside rig tune 

Good attention to detail , rapid turn around ..it was a fair price

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13 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

@964racer

my curiosity is killing me. I have some questions about fair and reasonable pricing:

* Do you think a person who is sufficiently capable of self supervision such that he can be trusted to evaluate and re-rig your mast should make more annually or less than you do in your occupation? 

* How much do you think a fully qualified rigger should make per year? 
 

* Should Riggers have health insurance?

* should riggers be able to save for retirement 

* Should a rigger give you a lower price because your boat is an older boat?

* Should new tires cost less for old cars. 
 

* Should a rigger charge enough so he can afford sufficient insurance to cover the cost of repairs and personal injuries if his new rig fails? 
 

* are you starting to believe I am sick and tired of price complaints from ignorant assholes who would need thirty years of intensive training and a 2 million dollar investment to have any chance of replacing me as the “guy who takes care of all the boats?”...... and who still couldn't replace me properly..... 

 

if I get the slightest inkling some jackass is coming to my shop because he hopes to get a lower price, I pretty much quit responding to his inquiries. 
Sailboat maintenance isn’t like brain surgery. You can’t go to tech school for a few years,  hang up a sign to hang on your wall, and then start PRACTICING.

 

You mentioned doing it yourself. 
 Sailboat repair is a lot like legal defense. 
 

A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client,

 

Just to be brutally honest here (and OK, maybe I'm one of those ignorant ah's that you are sick and tired of),  as far as I am aware, there is no formal certification process in the US that qualifies one to be a sailboat "rigger" unlike other specialties .  Anyone can call themselves a "rigger". So here in the Bay Area, there are a lot of "riggers".  Out of every good rigger, there may be 3 or 4 bad ones or possibly even more floating around .  I can tell you from recent personal experience of a rigger that was recommended, made bold claims of his own experience, did some work for me and almost everything he did on my boat has to be redone.  .Fortunately, he didn't do anything that was really structural to the boat.  So you can see why some clients might be very hesitant or careful about hiring anyone to do work on their boat.

 

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

These things happen 

several estimates clarify things 

unfortunately some locations don’t have an abundance  of capable pro rigging shops 

I recently did a rod replacement on a 40 footer 

7.5 k

BSI rod 

unstep , rod replaced , 95 percent of terminal fittings saved , mast horse rental , three weeks shipyard mast storage , mast stepped , dockside rig tune 

Good attention to detail , rapid turn around ..it was a fair price

That seems like a fair price. So if 9K was offered  to me with replacement of terminal fittings (assuming they can be found) on a 33, it doesn't seem unreasonable. I will have to ask about the fittings though, because my fittings look good - perhaps on closer inspection some of them can be saved/reused. I have a keep stepped mast which was completely redone 10 years ago (including the mast step/base in the boat), so I am hoping the mast itself is not a problem to take down and reinstall. Here in the Bay Area , the boats stay in the water all year around, so the mast doesn't come down that often.

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2 minutes ago, 964racer said:

That seems like a fair price. So if 9K was offered  to me with replacement of terminal fittings (assuming they can be found) on a 33, it doesn't seem unreasonable. I will have to ask about the fittings though, because my fittings look good - perhaps on closer inspection some of them can be saved/reused. I have a keep stepped mast which was completely redone 10 years ago (including the mast step/base in the boat), so I am hoping the mast itself is not a problem to take down and reinstall. Here in the Bay Area , the boats stay in the water all year around, so the mast doesn't come down that often.

Fittings are cleaned up then examined in the shop

most of the fittings are very durable and last for many years 

some navtec fitting are “ peened “ in place and can’t be reused 

some spreader tip designs are very difficult to disassemble  

a rigger  will instantly recognize these issues when giving an estimate 

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15 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

he hopes to get a lower price

I think he said he wants to pay the full price, just spread over time rather than all at once. 

In fact, doing it this way means he'll probably pay more in the end if there are any set up costs involved. 

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12 hours ago, 964racer said:

Just to be brutally honest here (and OK, maybe I'm one of those ignorant ah's that you are sick and tired of),  as far as I am aware, there is no formal certification process in the US that qualifies one to be a sailboat "rigger" unlike other specialties .  Anyone can call themselves a "rigger". So here in the Bay Area, there are a lot of "riggers".  Out of every good rigger, there may be 3 or 4 bad ones or possibly even more floating around .  I can tell you from recent personal experience of a rigger that was recommended, made bold claims of his own experience, did some work for me and almost everything he did on my boat has to be redone.  .Fortunately, he didn't do anything that was really structural to the boat.  So you can see why some clients might be very hesitant or careful about hiring anyone to do work on their boat.

 

I hope you realize I was writing SA style with as much crazed emotionalism as possible. 
plesse don’t take it any

more personally than the traditional “fuck off show us your girlfriends’ bare chest.”

re-rigging a mast is, as you know, expensive and should only be done by somebody who knows what can go wrong. 
 

around here we chat a lot about the fact most of us who care for boats are over 60 and many of us worked and learned a lot in production facilities that no longer exist. 
 

As the fleet ages, it will continue to need more maintenance and those who know how are wandering away to graveyards and / or more lucrative occupations. 
 

good luck finding a great rigger and warranty 

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