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On 2/23/2021 at 6:55 PM, winchfodder said:

I think Ben's problem with the dodgy starts and tactics in the final was that he was convinced that he was sailing a slower boat and it got into his head.  

 

Well the figures show it.

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That old cliche "You can't win them all". He has got a pretty full trophy cabinet though 5 Olympic Medals, a record number of Finn Gold Cups, a bucket load of worlds, a WMRT title, thrashed everyone i

to be fair... I have raced Giles... it didn't go very well. I had only been sailing for a couple of years though and was very small. Giles, despite being my age was already getting too big for toppers

Actually I got to be in the cockpit with Ben many moons ago in a demo event match racing against Ian Percy and Shirley Robertson in the Sunsail France 1 and France 2 AC class boats.  My input was sole

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2 hours ago, LordBooster said:

OK, I will give you a hint or two. The hula that Lidgard invented was a legal way of increasing the displacement and of the yacht. The challengers had to do something to respond to the hula. What did they do? Again, take your time to check the history books.

   

Get your facts right.

NZL 82 design team was Tom Schnackenberg Clay Oliver and Mike Drumond.

Schnackenberg: Well, necessity's the mother of invention. They come from sort of a frustration. How can we have our cake and eat it? We tested steeper stern and shallower stern slopes to try to see which was better and while we were arguing about these, we thought it would be nice to have this and nice to have that and then Clay said, "Well, you know, of course, if we had an appendage on the back, we could have it both ways."

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1 hour ago, LordBooster said:

I guess you have figured it out. It may be the same old story. But in a more cruel (or something) version. What Sir Ben says is that Prada both sponsored the yacht he sailed against and the Prada Cup itself. After that he basically don't want to say anything more. But what may be implied is the following. If proper control measurements had been taken place (that is common in other regattas) something may had came out that a yacht/regatta-sponsor don't want to come out. And I hope you have looked at the old YouTube clips by now. In the case of the Lidgard-designed NZ defender it would have been fair for them if proper control measurements had been taken place during the Louis Vuitton Cup. In such case they simply could have filed a protest against the challengers. But since apparently no records was available or similar, no protest could be filed. The only way the defender could respond to, in what was going on by the challengers, was to do the same thing to their own yacht. And we all know what happened. Water in the yacht clearly visible, broken boom and mast. OK, now let's put us in the situation of the present defender. Now they have to react to a yacht that is strangely fast. But they have no documents on what has been going on. Thus, they cannot file any protest. They have most certainly figured out that it is the opposite to what Lidgard's design suffered from. Now I must admit that I don't know how is sponsoring the present America's Cup itself. Regardless of what NZ has to figure out how to handle the situation. Any ideas?

 

           

That sounds like a Q-Anon conspiracy.

You should clarify what you think went on during the 2003 challenger trials and AC, because right now you are talking bollocks. 

Spin your theory. No evidence required, but lay out your whole theory so we can see what you think you know.

Do you think the measurers just issue a class certificate and walk away, never to look at a boat again, either today or in 2003?

Spit it out, or STFU.

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10 minutes ago, Jean-Baptiste said:

Battre un cheval mort, continuez.

Battre un cheval mort, continuez.=Beat a dead horse, continue.

OK, how shall NZ continue if their yacht is dead horse? I must admit that I don't know the rules here. But one way may be to do the same thing as the Prada-yacht but worse. Already in the first race. Now the Prada yacht has to figure out if they want to protest or not. If they protest, they probably have to accept a protest from NZ as well...

 

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Regarding the (long lost) thread and conspiracy theories: I think the Occam Razor can help us quite a bit.
This is the AC: nothing can't be rolled out. Everything is possible and almost every dirt trick was already played in the history of this cup.
But sometimes things can just be way simpler then they appear.
BA  has some anger management issue, and the pressure on him in this campaign must have been huge. He has always used the sport as a way to just throw his frustrations and stress and anger to, becoming one of the best of all time.
This time there was no chance for him: no way to even try to fight on the water. 
Of course all this pressure had to come out, as it did.
Add to it that his job, once has been clear there he had no way to fight the Italians on the water, is to put as much pressure as he can on LR. There's quite a lot of stuff going on between ETNZ and ITUK for the future, and BA has always been a master in marginal gain. 
I still believe that a team manager should behave way better than this; complaining on stuff.com about not being invited to presser in which he was, 4 minutes before, present it's just a poor tactic move.
But, well, time will tell.

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7 minutes ago, Thewas said:

This is the AC: nothing can't be rolled out. Everything is possible and almost every dirt trick was already played in the history of this cup.

OK, what NZ probably has to do is to make clear for Prada that their sponsorship is a good thing, and that NZ want it to continue to be something good for Prada. NZ have to state before the first race that they will do everything that Prada does. And if necessary file a protest already in the first race. Now Prada has to estimate the loss in good-will.

 

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10 minutes ago, LordBooster said:

OK, what NZ probably has to do is to make clear for Prada that their sponsorship is a good thing, and that NZ want it to continue to be something good for Prada. NZ have to state before the first race that they will do everything that Prada does. And if necessary file a protest already in the first race. Now Prada has to estimate the loss in good-will.

 

The plot thickens. C’mon, explain yourself, this is Sailing Anarchy, not the DaVinci Code 

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35 minutes ago, Thewas said:

Regarding the (long lost) thread and conspiracy theories: I think the Occam Razor can help us quite a bit.
This is the AC: nothing can't be rolled out. Everything is possible and almost every dirt trick was already played in the history of this cup.
But sometimes things can just be way simpler then they appear.
BA  has some anger management issue, and the pressure on him in this campaign must have been huge. He has always used the sport as a way to just throw his frustrations and stress and anger to, becoming one of the best of all time.
This time there was no chance for him: no way to even try to fight on the water. 
Of course all this pressure had to come out, as it did.
Add to it that his job, once has been clear there he had no way to fight the Italians on the water, is to put as much pressure as he can on LR. There's quite a lot of stuff going on between ETNZ and ITUK for the future, and BA has always been a master in marginal gain. 
I still believe that a team manager should behave way better than this; complaining on stuff.com about not being invited to presser in which he was, 4 minutes before, present it's just a poor tactic move.
But, well, time will tell.

He was not invited. He was invited after he complained.

 

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6 minutes ago, Thewas said:

Aaah, poor BA: we're not even giving him his very thread on SAAC. :D

 

He has never heard of you. 

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4 minutes ago, dullers said:

He was not invited. He was invited after he complained.

 

He was not invited. He was invited after he complained. He went to the presser. After he complained again.

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1 hour ago, Zaal said:

I miss how all of this can apply to the current AC edition

You must be new here.

Totally relevant as it gives us something to bitch and moan about until this AC starts.

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I'm pretty sure to have seen him in the presser. Pls don't undermine my already fragile perception of reality...

Just now, dullers said:

He was not invited there. He was invited complained after he complained was invited

 

 

Fixed. Or is there any required advance to consider an invitation as an actual invitation?
 

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13 minutes ago, dullers said:

He has never heard of you. 

Sure he has.

Benny and I were having a beer just last week and he was bemoaning the fact that he hadn't seen his good mate Thewas is aaaages!

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Sure he has.

Benny and I were having a beer just last week and he was bemoaning the fact that he hadn't seen his good mate Thewas is aaaages!

As plausible as anything else I've read in this thread. ;-)

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14 minutes ago, strider470 said:

non ci sto capendo un c**zo :D

Si tirava un po' di supercazzola, tanto per (come fosse antani)

15 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Sure he has.

Benny and I were having a beer just last week and he was bemoaning the fact that he hadn't seen his good mate Thewas is aaaages!

The good ol' Ben, always a though for the friends. If you meet him again hug him for me. 

4 minutes ago, LordBooster said:

Ehhhh, I can't follow you...

 

He was invited. Maybe not two weeks before, but he was invited. Or was he? maybe he just crashed the winners presser with Giles (who can actually stop these two mountains?)

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Just now, Thewas said:

Si tirava un po' di supercazzola, tanto per (come fosse antani)

The good ol' Ben, always a though for the friends. If you meet him again hug him for me. 

He was invited. Maybe not two weeks before, but he was invited. Or was he? maybe he just crashed the winners presser with Giles (who can actually stop these two mountains?)

 

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4 hours ago, accnick said:

What Sir Ben says is that Prada both sponsored the yacht he sailed against and the Prada Cup itself. After that he basically don't want to say anything more.

The enigma may be was Sir Ben cannot say in public. Or?

 

 

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11 minutes ago, LordBooster said:

The enigma may be was Sir Ben cannot say in public. Or?

 

 

Excuse me, but the quote you attribute to me is unrelated to anything I said. Don't try to quote people if you don't know how quoting works on this forum. You are quoting yourself, not me, and I don't appreciate my name attached to drivel.

Innuendo is meaningless.

Fish or cut bait, mate.

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1 minute ago, accnick said:

Excuse me, but the quote you attribute to me is unrelated to anything I said. Don't try to quote people if you don't know how quoting works on this forum. You are quoting yourself, not me, and I don't appreciate my name attached to drivel.

Innuendo is meaningless.

Fish or cut bait, mate.

Sorry!

I believe that one enigma is what Sir Ben couldn't tell in public.

 

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26 minutes ago, accnick said:

Fish or cut bait, mate.

Ha, ha. I'd like to borrow that one, Nick. ;-)

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10 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Ha, ha. I'd like to borrow that one, Nick. ;-)

It's a bit more polite than the other way to say the same thing. It's in the public domain, so you're welcome to it.

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11 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Get your facts right.

NZL 82 design team was Tom Schnackenberg Clay Oliver and Mike Drumond.

Schnackenberg: Well, necessity's the mother of invention. They come from sort of a frustration. How can we have our cake and eat it? We tested steeper stern and shallower stern slopes to try to see which was better and while we were arguing about these, we thought it would be nice to have this and nice to have that and then Clay said, "Well, you know, of course, if we had an appendage on the back, we could have it both ways."

https://powerboat.world/news/229357/Hamish-Pepper-on-the-Happy-Hour-podcast

 

Dudes, get your facts right...

Listen to the link 

The hula was a desperate attempt to go faster by barker, Snacks, etal, because they didn't have enough dosh post Blake, Sefton and co stripping TNZ of it's cash and assets.

The hula was also compromised by the rule interpretation regarding it Touching the hull during sailing. This was challenger by Alingi.. 

 Listen to Hamish Pepper in the pod cast.

 

No doubt people will bag me:rolleyes: and put me on ignore for highlighting Thier ineptitude...

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14 hours ago, LordBooster said:

Lidgard had figured out a way to do both under sailing. In a legal way. [...]. 

 

Honest question: how the hell do you increase displacement on a boat while sailing?

Only way I can think of is using winglets that pull the boat down in the water (that's how they actually work) but other than that I don't get it.

Edit: That's only good when you are heeled upwind and they pull you to windward, but it's pure drag downwind

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7 hours ago, LordBooster said:

Sorry!

I believe that one enigma is what Sir Ben couldn't tell in public.

 

Please, less of the Sir Ben. Could be BA. Ben. Ben Ainslie. Even, in a formal situation, Sir Ben Ainslie. "Sir Ben" belongs only in a fantasy, written for children.

On the other hand.....

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Who gets paid more in this designers race? Designer or Helm?

 

someone else pointed out to me that you need the whole package.   After all, Ben bear LT 2-0 in Round Robin on sailing skills despite boat that at best was equal but maybe slower.

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14 hours ago, jaysper said:

That's a fucking high bar, especially between racing where we all start howling at the moon and go a touch feral.

We know it's a mental cesspit, bad for our general well-being, yet... Here we are.

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9 hours ago, LordBooster said:

The enigma may be was Sir Ben cannot say in public. Or?

 

 

Yes, I think that you started from there, what's the real meaning behind BA words ? Please enlight us 

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1 hour ago, Zaal said:

Yes, I think that you started from there, what's the real meaning behind BA words ? Please enlight us 

Well, that is an enigma. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein

"what can be said at all can be said clearly, and what we cannot talk about we must pass over in silence.

"Was sich überhaupt sagen lässt, lässt sich klar sagen; und wovon man nicht reden kann, darüber muss man schweigen."

I get headache by reading this stuff. What does Ludwig W. mean? Does it apply to BA's silence? I have to take something to cure my headache... Stay tuned.

 

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4 hours ago, LordBooster said:

I guess BA couldn't elaborate about the following of the Prada yacht: Why it could both point higher upwind, and go deeper downwind compared to his own yacht.

 

Well, I can think about a couple reasons: it was better sailed and better designed. I think Ineos had the budget and the people to do a better work, but it seems that the first boat wasn’t really good.. they lost time re-designing it  

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5 hours ago, 45Roller said:

Happier times for BA

It is incredible how resilient the Americas cup Deed has been to backdoor agreements and arrangements, from EB, to LE.  In the end the predictable happened - the one team who didn't sign won that round, and all the agreements were shown to have less value than the paper they were written on.  The stick of the NYSC is a very strong one!

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4 hours ago, Zaal said:

Well, I can think about a couple reasons: it was better sailed and better designed. I think Ineos had the budget and the people to do a better work, but it seems that the first boat wasn’t really good.. they lost time re-designing it  

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/podcasts/the-superior-sailor-series/superior-sailor-series-episode-five-dennis-conner/

The guru of AC is DC.

If BA had a yarn with DC ( listen to the link above) re the AC he would have learnt that the order of a winning campaign is...

1. Need a high profile winning sailor to strart things of. (DC,RC,BA...)

2. Money 

3. A fast design.

4. Money

5. The rest is easy .. with plenty of money

Simple.

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Baconator said:

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/podcasts/the-superior-sailor-series/superior-sailor-series-episode-five-dennis-conner/

The guru of AC is DC.

If BA had a yarn with DC ( listen to the link above) re the AC he would have learnt that the order of a winning campaign is...

1. Need a high profile winning sailor to strart things of. (DC,RC,BA...)

2. Money 

3. A fast design.

4. Money

5. The rest is easy .. with plenty of money

Simple.

1) Money

2) Design

3) Then you put any world class sailors and he wins.

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7 minutes ago, Baconator said:

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/podcasts/the-superior-sailor-series/superior-sailor-series-episode-five-dennis-conner/

The guru of AC is DC.

If BA had a yarn with DC ( listen to the link above) re the AC he would have learnt that the order of a winning campaign is...

1. Need a high profile winning sailor to strart things of. (DC,RC,BA...)

2. Money 

3. A fast design.

4. Money

5. The rest is easy .. with plenty of money

Simple.

 

 

 

 

 

DC helped initiate this modern era of professionalism in the AC but it has long since overtaken him.

Better to talk to Coutts.

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9 hours ago, LordBooster said:

I guess BA couldn't elaborate about the following of the Prada yacht: Why it could both point higher upwind, and go deeper downwind compared to his own yacht.

 

I imagine if he knew why then they could have fixed the issues.

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Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

1) Money

2) Design

3) Then you put any world class sailors and he wins.

I thought that too .. but then saw that conner had to get the money for his campains leveraging of his winning record and sale pitch ..

 

RC and BA are the same.  ..   they draw in the money of the back of their talent and record.

Billionaires back winners.... First you need a winner?

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4 minutes ago, jaysper said:

DC helped initiate this modern era of professionalism in the AC but it has long since overtaken him.

Better to talk to Coutts.

Not really, he took a 7 day aweek approach to sailing but was never payed for it. He payed his way via his drapery business... Or so we are made to believe...

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8 minutes ago, Baconator said:

I thought that too .. but then saw that conner had to get the money for his campains leveraging of his winning record and sale pitch ..

 

RC and BA are the same.  ..   they draw in the money of the back of their talent and record.

Billionaires back winners.... First you need a winner?

The billionnaire find a sailor that can organize a winning team, the design team makes the difference.

 

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28 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The billionnaire find a sailor that can organize a winning team, the design team makes the difference.

 

And not the normal crowd of yacht designers either.

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13 hours ago, LordBooster said:

I am more with TS Eliot's Sweeney. "But I’ve gotta use words when I talk to you."

 

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