McGyver 45 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 She had foils last year: https://www.bateaux.com/article/34535/clubswan-80-un-maxi-voilier-de-course-a-foil-pour-marins-affutes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mad 3,965 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Quote This one-design sailboat 23.99 m long, with a draft varying from 6.30 m to 4.50 m, was designed by Juan Kouyoumdjian, like the ClubSwan 36 in 2018. It is also the French architect's responsibility. Argentine that we owe the designs of the IMOCA Arkéa-Paprec and the latest addition to the Corum l'Epargne fleet . This could be fun to watch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SloopJonB 8,834 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 An 80' One design. Something is very wrong. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Al Paca 399 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 I need to raise my rates. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mad 3,965 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, SloopJonB said: An 80' One design. Something is very wrong. Can’t see this working as a class. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SloopJonB 8,834 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 It probably could - that's what's wrong. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NZK 376 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 7 hours ago, mad said: Can’t see this working as a class. It'll probably work just as well as the Maxi72 class (that it's supposed to be replacing) - everyone will play well together for a year or two and then whoever isn't winning will make an 'out of class' modification and the whole thing will turn back into an arms race. Swan have managed the Club 50 fleet pretty well to keep it more economical and approachable than a full grand-prix affair like the TP52s - I don't think this concept can transfer to an 80ft primarily because the step-up in logistics and maintenance is so big (and yes, I realise my use of the term 'economical' is highly relative - they're still fucking expensive). At least they have Persico building these - the 50s (and apparently 36s) have been a fucking nightmare in terms of quality and consistency. 11 hours ago, McGyver said: She had foils last year Interesting. Is this because the concept is flawed and hasn't shown real-world performance in the 36s launched to date? The foil primarily affects reaching and upwind performance on the 36 - it isn't deployed downwind IIRC. Given the 80 has a canting keel to maximise righting moment for upwind sailing and they will likely primarily race windward/leewards maybe someone decided it just wasn't worth the ball-ache for limited performance gains? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TwoLegged 1,224 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 2 hours ago, NZK said: At least they have Persico building these - the 50s (and apparently 36s) have been a fucking nightmare in terms of quality and consistency. That's sad to hear. Back in the IOR days, Swan built some hideous designs (like the pinch-ended, high-topside 371) ... but they were always beautifully built. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 10 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 2 hours ago, NZK said: At least they have Persico building these - the 50s (and apparently 36s) have been a fucking nightmare in terms of quality and consistency. Curious to hear about this. I have a swan 45. Early in its life (previous owner) my boat's rudder snapped off. This was a common problem. Swan reengineered the rudder and retrofitted every boat built at that time under warranty. I have my eye on the club swan 50. I know the first 3 boats came out of the factory a little heavy and swan is retrofitting all of them under warranty. What other problems are there in terms of "quality and consistency"? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NZK 376 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 minute ago, pilotdave said: I have my eye on the club swan 50. I know the first 3 boats came out of the factory a little heavy and swan is retrofitting all of them under warranty. What other problems are there in terms of "quality and consistency"? AFAIK there are now some issues with the mold for the 50 because so many have sold and they are now having issues with the newer boats being overweight (I've heard 200kg) and they have to remove interior parts during regattas to get down to weight. I don't think there have been any serious build quality concerns and the fleet has proven to be very successful - to be honest my description may have been slightly over-zealous as a lot of the other grumblings I've heard are from people comparing them to TPs and Maxi72s which is not exactly a fair exercise. I think Swan may have underestimated how hard the boats were going to be raced as most of have them have numerous pros crawling all over them trying to optimise every last gram and millimeter.... . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mid 3,176 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 15 hours ago, McGyver said: She had foils last year: https://www.bateaux.com/article/34535/clubswan-80-un-maxi-voilier-de-course-a-foil-pour-marins-affutes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cristoforo 438 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 4 hours ago, pilotdave said: Curious to hear about this. I have a swan 45. Early in its life (previous owner) my boat's rudder snapped off. This was a common problem. Swan reengineered the rudder and retrofitted every boat built at that time under warranty. I have my eye on the club swan 50. I know the first 3 boats came out of the factory a little heavy and swan is retrofitting all of them under warranty. What other problems are there in terms of "quality and consistency"? Nautor initial comment on the 45 rudder was 'the boat is much faster than we ever dreamed and rudder loads are greater than expected.' They spent a ton flying retro rudders around the world. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Snowden 338 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Cristoforo said: Nautor initial comment on the 45 rudder was 'the boat is much faster than we ever dreamed and rudder loads are greater than expected.' They spent a ton flying retro rudders around the world. A nice way to spin it :-) should have tried that with the FT10 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cristoforo 438 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 2 hours ago, Snowden said: A nice way to spin it :-) should have tried that with the FT10 Yep. But I doubt FT was chartering jets to get new warranty rudders to regattas Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gorn FRANTIC!! 405 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 2 hours ago, Cristoforo said: Yep. But I doubt FT was chartering jets to get new warranty rudders to regattas DO YOU WANT YOUR DEPOSIT BACK!?!?!?! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Monkey 1,469 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said: DO YOU WANT YOUR DEPOSIT BACK!?!?!?! WE HUNG IT FROM THE CEILING SO WE KNOW ITS FINE!!! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bgytr 385 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 On 2/26/2021 at 5:13 AM, NZK said: AFAIK there are now some issues with the mold for the 50 because so many have sold and they are now having issues with the newer boats being overweight (I've heard 200kg) and they have to remove interior parts during regattas to get down to weight. I don't think there have been any serious build quality concerns and the fleet has proven to be very successful - to be honest my description may have been slightly over-zealous as a lot of the other grumblings I've heard are from people comparing them to TPs and Maxi72s which is not exactly a fair exercise. I think Swan may have underestimated how hard the boats were going to be raced as most of have them have numerous pros crawling all over them trying to optimise every last gram and millimeter.... . 200kg, 440lb, doesn't seem like much outta 18000lb displacement. Why don't they just add corrector weights to the light boats for one design races? Hell just add 50 gallons in the water tanks. Those fixed bowsprits are stupid. For almost the same weight, you could just bring the rest of the boat out to the extent of the sprit and have 5 more feet of waterline. Plus eliminate a highly stressed structural connection. But that's fashion for ya. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Grande Mastere Dreade 2,387 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 On 2/26/2021 at 4:13 AM, NZK said: AFAIK there are now some issues with the mold for the 50 because so many have sold and they are now having issues with the newer boats being overweight (I've heard 200kg) and they have to remove interior parts during regattas to get down to weight. I don't think there have been any serious build quality concerns and the fleet has proven to be very successful - to be honest my description may have been slightly over-zealous as a lot of the other grumblings I've heard are from people comparing them to TPs and Maxi72s which is not exactly a fair exercise. I think Swan may have underestimated how hard the boats were going to be raced as most of have them have numerous pros crawling all over them trying to optimise every last gram and millimeter.... . i'm curious , how do you weigh a 50' boat with rigging? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Monkey 1,469 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 58 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said: i'm curious , how do you weigh a 50' boat with rigging? On a travel lift with load cells. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jackolantern 473 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said: i'm curious , how do you weigh a 50' boat with rigging? With your largest scale Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Will1073 30 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 200kg seems pretty reasonable to me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bgytr 385 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 5 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said: i'm curious , how do you weigh a 50' boat with rigging? Displacement measurements work if you have the hull offsets. Very accurate if done right. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ishmael 6,667 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Will1073 said: 200kg seems pretty reasonable to me Just pretend *********** is on board. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alberta 46 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 6 hours ago, bgytr said: 200kg, 440lb, doesn't seem like much outta 18000lb displacement. Why don't they just add corrector weights to the light boats for one design races? Hell just add 50 gallons in the water tanks. Those fixed bowsprits are stupid. For almost the same weight, you could just bring the rest of the boat out to the extent of the sprit and have 5 more feet of waterline. Plus eliminate a highly stressed structural connection. But that's fashion for ya. Then stick a 2 meter stick off the front to go faster downwind. More hull is a lot more expensive than a sprit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gouvernail 2,916 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 What is FP? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bgytr 385 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 10 hours ago, Alberta said: Then stick a 2 meter stick off the front to go faster downwind. More hull is a lot more expensive than a sprit. No it isn't. one part. one mold. One manufacturing process, much less man hours in engineering and assembly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jack Sparrow 79 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 3 hours ago, bgytr said: No it isn't. one part. one mold. One manufacturing process, much less man hours in engineering and assembly. The ClubSwan 80 is a retractable sprit- https://www.nautorswan.com/news/2020/09/clubswan-80-born-to-change-the-maxi-yachts-world/ "Retractable Carbon Sprit". There certainly is a bit of engineering and man hours in implementing a bowsprit, but I would think that based on the size of these sprits (10+ feet) that adding the equivalent length of hull wouldn't be an attractive proposal at all. Nobody in this market is looking for a bargain on engineering or man hours (or they wouldn't be buying a new 80 foot racer-cruiser) and in any case, the added wetted surface caused by adding 10 feet to the bow would then drive a bigger rig, bigger sails, and...a bowsprit for the downwind sails. The point you make about added complexity, man hours, etc is perfectly valid. It just likely is never going to be an issue for racing boats run on this sort of budget. I can see it being a factor in smaller cruising boats, where a fixed price point is important to development and build costs. I don't think anyone has ever bought a brand new Swan because they were looking to save money on costs. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TwoLegged 1,224 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 3 hours ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said: I don't think anyone has ever bought a brand new Swan because they were looking to save money on costs. Hmm. A brand new Swan is probably a few pennies more than yer FT10 or J/70 or Melges. But I doubt the FT10 or J/70 or Melges ever appeared on the same shopping list as a Swan. The choice was probably Swan or custom boat, and the Swan will work out a lot cheaper, especially come resale time. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bgytr 385 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 4 hours ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said: The ClubSwan 80 is a retractable sprit- https://www.nautorswan.com/news/2020/09/clubswan-80-born-to-change-the-maxi-yachts-world/ "Retractable Carbon Sprit". There certainly is a bit of engineering and man hours in implementing a bowsprit, but I would think that based on the size of these sprits (10+ feet) that adding the equivalent length of hull wouldn't be an attractive proposal at all. Nobody in this market is looking for a bargain on engineering or man hours (or they wouldn't be buying a new 80 foot racer-cruiser) and in any case, the added wetted surface caused by adding 10 feet to the bow would then drive a bigger rig, bigger sails, and...a bowsprit for the downwind sails. The point you make about added complexity, man hours, etc is perfectly valid. It just likely is never going to be an issue for racing boats run on this sort of budget. I can see it being a factor in smaller cruising boats, where a fixed price point is important to development and build costs. I don't think anyone has ever bought a brand new Swan because they were looking to save money on costs. Ah ya my mistake, it is retracting pole. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Will1073 30 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 13 hours ago, Gouvernail said: What is FP? Don't go there... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ishmael 6,667 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 21 hours ago, Gouvernail said: What is FP? Face paper. It's like toilet paper, but for the other end. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TwoLegged 1,224 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 21 hours ago, Gouvernail said: What is FP? It's a mythological place of doom, whose existence is disputed by logical positivists. Kinda like purgatory, but with snakepits and fire torture ... and shameless plug for advertisers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gouvernail 2,916 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 Logical prostitutes?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chimp too 334 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 On 2/27/2021 at 8:12 PM, Grande Mastere Dreade said: i'm curious , how do you weigh a 50' boat with rigging? Not in a travel lift as monkey suggests. You use a crane, some spreader bars and a tension load cell. Easy. Here is a photo of a Wally 80 as example. Done it on many boats up to 100 feet and 50,000kg. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shanghaisailor 1,440 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 23 hours ago, TwoLegged said: It's a mythological place of doom, whose existence is disputed by logical positivists. Kinda like purgatory, but with snakepits and fire torture ... and shameless plug for advertisers. It's funny how some people slag off something that enables them to join threads for free Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TwoLegged 1,224 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 6 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said: It's funny how some people slag off something that enables them to join threads for free If you are writing cheques to post in any SA threads, I have a bridge to sell you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shanghaisailor 1,440 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Just now, TwoLegged said: If you are writing cheques to post in any SA threads, I have a bridge to sell you. WTF? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
daan62 277 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 80 ft one-design.... it has been tried before with limited succes Grand Mistral 80 Pierre Fehlmann Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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