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A federal judge has ruled that the Federal moratorium on evictions is unconstitutional ...

https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-federal-judge-rules-cdcs-pandemic-eviction-moratorium/story?id=76134385

"Although the COVID-19 pandemic persists, so does the Constitution."

Although as it stands, the moratorium is still in effect and will remain so until the end of March at least, unless it is extended again.

When the moratorium is lifted, our country will see the biggest wave of evictions in history. The courts may not even be able to keep up with all of the property owners who currently are forced to supply free rent to tenants who file the COVID exemption, even while their own costs mount.

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Shocking . What sort of people want to evict tenants and make them homeless in the midst of a pandemic?

Strange that Mike posts this without comment as he's skin in the game.

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26 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

so the federal government attempts to support the people it represents and the constitution says no?

 

what a great piece of paper.

That's the way it is. The states can place the moratorium, but not the Feds.

The government represents both people who own and rent property.

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22 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Shocking . What sort of people want to evict tenants and make them homeless in the midst of a pandemic?

Strange that Mike posts this without comment as he's skin in the game.

No decent property owner wants to evict tenants, it's a lose-lose proposition.

But the moratorium says that the tenant needs to only file the COVID exemption and then they can stop paying rent.

In my case, I have a mortgage and lots of costs on my grandmother's old house, I rented it to a tenant who needed it, and they filed the COVID exemption days later. The exemption claims that the tenant lost their jobs due to COVID, but they still need to attempt to pay some rent. In my case they still have jobs and have paid no rent since October. They won't pay gas, electric or water, and I can't shut it off, so I have to pay that for them. They've broken doors and walls and get into raging fights that end with visits from the police. And eviction is not allowed.

We have social safety nets to prevent homelessness, it's called Section-8 and I'm happy to rent Section-8, I have in the past. But there is no compliance check on the COVID exemption, it's just a blanket permission to not pay any rent.

Yes, I'm sure that it does help some people who have been genuinely impacted, but it's also apparently abused. If you feel proactive Meli, why not rent out your home to someone who breaks down doors and walls and doesn't pay rent. Then you'll have "skin in the game" too! Whee!

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6 minutes ago, mikewof said:

No decent property owner wants to evict tenants, it's a lose-lose proposition.

But the moratorium says that the tenant needs to only file the COVID exemption and then they can stop paying rent.

In my case, I have a mortgage and lots of costs on my grandmother's old house, I rented it to a tenant who needed it, and they filed the COVID exemption days later. The exemption claims that the tenant lost their jobs due to COVID, but they still need to attempt to pay some rent. In my case they still have jobs and have paid no rent since October. They won't pay gas, electric or water, and I can't shut it off, so I have to pay that for them. They've broken doors and walls and get into raging fights that end with visits from the police. And eviction is not allowed.

We have social safety nets to prevent homelessness, it's called Section-8 and I'm happy to rent Section-8, I have in the past. But there is no compliance check on the COVID exemption, it's just a blanket permission to not pay any rent.

Yes, I'm sure that it does help some people who have been genuinely impacted, but it's also heavily abused. If you fell proactive Meli, why not rent out your home to someone who breaks down doors and walls and doesn't pay rent. Then you'll have "skin in the game" too!

Or choose better tenants?

I've had tenants good and not so good. Comes with being a landlord. 

Why not sell your second house and pay off your mortgage. That's what I did. problem solved, no tenants no mortgage. win win.

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17 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Or choose better tenants?

I've had tenants good and not so good. Comes with being a landlord. 

Why not sell your second house and pay off your mortgage. That's what I did. problem solved, no tenants no mortgage. win win.

I'm supposed to sell a house that is inhabited by a tenant who can't be evicted? How would that work?

For your bad tenants, did the government tell you you that you weren't allowed to evict them?

 

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14 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Or choose better tenants?

I've had tenants good and not so good. Comes with being a landlord. 

Why not sell your second house and pay off your mortgage. That's what I did. problem solved, no tenants no mortgage. win win.

Yep that's the reason I'd not become a landlord. Too much hassle.

Nonetheless I can understand the position if you're paying the mortgage with no relief and your tenants aren't paying you. That could well become unsustainable, resulting in a mortgage foreclosure, sale of property and tenants getting evicted. From the tenants' POV, little difference in outcome, maybe some in timing.

FKT

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Just now, mikewof said:

I'm supposed to sell a house that is inhabited by a tenant who can't be evicted? How would that work?

For your bad tenants, did the government tell you you that you weren't allowed to evict them?

Is this what you're talking about?

Looks like you can evict them for property damage.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/09/04/2020-19654/temporary-halt-in-residential-evictions-to-prevent-the-further-spread-of-covid-19

Renter's or Homeowner's Declaration

 

 

Attachment A is a Declaration form that tenants, lessees, or residents of residential properties who are covered by the CDC's order temporarily halting residential evictions to prevent the further spread of COVID-19 may use. To invoke the CDC's order these persons must provide an executed copy of the Declaration form (or a similar declaration under penalty of perjury) to their landlord, owner of the residential property where they live, or other person who has a right to have them evicted or removed from where they live. Each adult listed on the lease, rental agreement, or housing contract should likewise complete and provide a declaration. Unless the CDC order is extended, changed, or ended, the order prevents these persons from being evicted or removed from where they are living through December 31, 2020. These persons are still required to pay rent and follow all the other terms of their lease and rules of the place where they live. These persons may also still be evicted for reasons other than not paying rent or making a housing Start Printed Page 55293payment. Executed declarations should not be returned to the Federal Government.

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2 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yep that's the reason I'd not become a landlord. Too much hassle.

Nonetheless I can understand the position if you're paying the mortgage with no relief and your tenants aren't paying you. That could well become unsustainable, resulting in a mortgage foreclosure, sale of property and tenants getting evicted. From the tenants' POV, little difference in outcome, maybe some in timing.

FKT

That isn't really right. Normally, when the tenant stops paying, they can be evicted in a month or so. In this case, they're living rent free for months and months with no eviction in sight. I don't really understand how this helps COVID, but COVID is in the name, so I guess it does, somehow.

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4 minutes ago, mikewof said:

I'm supposed to sell a house that is inhabited by a tenant who can't be evicted? How would that work?

For your bad tenants, did the government tell you you that you weren't allowed to evict them?

 

They would If I still had a rental.

You are not the only place in the world with Covid related eviction moratoriums  :rolleyes: 

https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/latest-news/victorian-eviction-moratorium-extended-news-alert

 

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2 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Is this what you're talking about?

Looks like you can evict them for property damage.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/09/04/2020-19654/temporary-halt-in-residential-evictions-to-prevent-the-further-spread-of-covid-19

Renter's or Homeowner's Declaration

 

 

Attachment A is a Declaration form that tenants, lessees, or residents of residential properties who are covered by the CDC's order temporarily halting residential evictions to prevent the further spread of COVID-19 may use. To invoke the CDC's order these persons must provide an executed copy of the Declaration form (or a similar declaration under penalty of perjury) to their landlord, owner of the residential property where they live, or other person who has a right to have them evicted or removed from where they live. Each adult listed on the lease, rental agreement, or housing contract should likewise complete and provide a declaration. Unless the CDC order is extended, changed, or ended, the order prevents these persons from being evicted or removed from where they are living through December 31, 2020. These persons are still required to pay rent and follow all the other terms of their lease and rules of the place where they live. These persons may also still be evicted for reasons other than not paying rent or making a housing Start Printed Page 55293payment. Executed declarations should not be returned to the Federal Government.

I thought so too ... turns out my state will only evict for "felony" damage, like a meth lab, or brothel, not broken doors and walls.

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6 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yep that's the reason I'd not become a landlord. Too much hassle.

Nonetheless I can understand the position if you're paying the mortgage with no relief and your tenants aren't paying you. That could well become unsustainable, resulting in a mortgage foreclosure, sale of property and tenants getting evicted. From the tenants' POV, little difference in outcome, maybe some in timing.

FKT

Mike's talking about his own mortgage. AFAIK there is no mortgage on the rental.

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2 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

They would If I still had a rental.

You are not the only place in the world with Covid related eviction moratoriums  :rolleyes: 

https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/latest-news/victorian-eviction-moratorium-extended-news-alert

 

Don't feel left out, I'm sure you can find someone to rent your current home who doesn't want to pay rent and can't be evicted.

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Just now, mikewof said:

Don't feel left out, I'm sure you can find someone to rent your current home who doesn't want to pay rent and can't be evicted.

And no doubt I'd find a tenant that doesn't break doors down.:rolleyes:

Only time I've had trouble with tenants is when I was overseas and used an agent.

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1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:

Mike's talking about his own mortgage. AFAIK there is no mortgage on the rental.

Both homes have debt. My grandmother's home was built in the 1920s, I've needed to put a massive amount of work into it ... wiring, foundation, roof, and the property tax is high too. There is supposedly a program to reimburse rent, but it's not actually paid anything yet, it doesn't cover damage from the tenants and I'm not even sure where the money is coming from. National debt?

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14 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

And no doubt I'd find a tenant that doesn't break doors down.:rolleyes:

Only time I've had trouble with tenants is when I was overseas and used an agent.

Nobody WANTS to rent to destructive tenants, it's just the way things work out apparently when they suddenly have a bunch of money sitting around that doesn't need to go to rent and can go to other things that perhaps tend to cloud one's judgement. Property owners tend not to have the ability of precognition, as far as I know.

My grandpa and grandma bought that house back when Denver was overrun with cattlemen and drunks, I can only assume he's seen a good bit worse than I'm seeing. In the summer, I can still go into the backyard and pick tiny grapes from the descendants of vines that he planted back in 1930. Yeah, bad tenant now, but the next one will be good, that house has good energy.

Regardless, when the moratorium is lifted, there WILL be an eviction tsunami, I don't see how that can be avoided, nor do I see how this has anything to do with COVID. It seems that a better method would have just been to extend Section-8 benefits to people with demonstrated need, rather than their ability to sign a two-page COVID form. At least with Section-8, there are social workers who monitor the situation. But this COVID exemption is just a free-for-all, there is no oversight that I can see anywhere.

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Here. the EO from you're governor 

Can't see where it says you can't evict a tenant for non payment. you just have to give correct notice. (30 days) 

I only skimmed it, but it would seem that if you've already given notice, you can backdate the notice period to include the time already under notice.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n32m2FHLlc4CJxk2dLrSGUibHlc8BVZ1/view

This wouldn't just be another whinge about Covid restrictions would it?

 

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Here.

Colorado special task force recommendations.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CobjEeoBbF8d8w3KNE5-TY_1G05RKq5E/view

Looks like you can apply for rent relief . (I assume the rental is above board and you have appropriate lease agreements and documentation)

No need to thank me for doing your homework for you.

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17 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Here.

Colorado special task force recommendations.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CobjEeoBbF8d8w3KNE5-TY_1G05RKq5E/view

Looks like you can apply for rent relief . (I assume the rental is above board and you have appropriate lease agreements and documentation)

No need to thank me for doing your homework for you.

Your confidence is "refreshing."

It's called POP, property owner's preservation, I applied months ago, haven't seen a dime yet, though I did finally get an email to tell me that I need to resubmit because the 2020 forms were expired and they need to be 2021 forms now. Well over sixty pages of forms, the owner has to comply with Housing and Urban Development guidelines, State guidelines, Federal guideline. And when the landlord does get money, they lose their place in the eviction line.

The renter just signs their name to the two page declaration ... any idea why it's so much easier for the renter than the owner?

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35 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Here. the EO from you're governor 

Can't see where it says you can't evict a tenant for non payment. you just have to give correct notice. (30 days) 

I only skimmed it, but it would seem that if you've already given notice, you can backdate the notice period to include the time already under notice.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n32m2FHLlc4CJxk2dLrSGUibHlc8BVZ1/view

This wouldn't just be another whinge about Covid restrictions would it?

 

If they file the COVID form they can't be evicted for nonpayment of rent. The only evictions that have proceeded are end-of-lease terms (why is that exempt from COVID? It makes no sense at all.) And also criminal actions like meth labs. Also, the notice you mention has been reduced from 30 days to 10, not that it matters anyway.

I've explored every possible avenue to get this settled, even hired a lawyer, the legal bill could have bought a half-decent dirt bike. It's going nowhere, they're protected and they know it. The tenant literally told me to my face "you won't get me out of here until Spring." And he told me that back in October. I thought he was nuts, turns out he knew more than anyone.

But this Federal Judge's decision might make a difference, it's the first movement I've seen on getting some ration back into the rental laws. Ironically for me, my income has been severely hit by COVID, and my rent on my lab space continues unabated, regardless that it's now just sitting there mostly unused. I don't get to file a COVID exemption because I don't live in it ... not that I would do it anyway, my commercial landlord is my friend, I value his and her friendship. This will all get ironed out eventually.

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2 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I aspire to own one of those waterfront shacks...

FKT

You could buy one of these for a paltry $350,000

44729fbf7b8f08a02443682511f04893?width=650

Not allowed to sleep or cook in it though :)

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Just now, Shortforbob said:

You could buy one of these for a paltry $350,000

44729fbf7b8f08a02443682511f04893?width=650

Not allowed to sleep or cook in it though :)

Nah - can get one a lot cheaper here in Tas. And yeah in theory you can't sleep in them, but nobody really cares. 

I've got 15 ex fish farm pontoon floats that one day will form a base for a work barge. At least that's what I'll call it when I register it. Nice thing about registered vessels, they're exempt from council rules WRT structures and accommodation...

FKT

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Been off for a few days, so haven't read the whole thread.  Don't know about Mikes state, but supposedly CT will have a bunch of the recently granted FED Covid rental assistance money, released to states in January..  Supposedly CT got 217 million.  Sure hope I can help several Tenants apply for this, as we are owed quite a bit from several of them.

I was told by a local housing assistance guy who handles these Fed Covid programs, that once the program rolls out, we may get direct payments for up to 8 months, for Tenants who qualify for this program.....

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47 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

because a roof over ones head should be a right, but having 2 roofs is just greedy.

Yeah, I've often thought that the homeless problem could be solved with all those empty holiday homes and airbnbs 

There's 139 million dwellings in the USA, one for every 2.5 people.

9 million in Oz, one for every 2.6 people.

each home owner in the usa averages 2.4 rooms per person inc children.

we're  not far behind at 2.3

most other OECD countries average 1.2-1.6 rooms pp.

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/housing/

that's obscene.

Come the revolution, people like me, all alone with 2 cats and a dog in three bedroom, million dollar + townhouses (Mike's out of date :D ) will be relocated to bedsitters. 

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4 hours ago, mikewof said:

The government represents both people who own and rent property.

A quaint notion, but which group has more voters?

 

4 hours ago, mikewof said:

I don't really understand how this helps COVID, but COVID is in the name, so I guess it does, somehow.

Lots of "pandemic relief" seems to actually be more of a panicdemic power grab. Or, as in this case, property grab.

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

@Dog hadn’t been evicted yet 

 

7201B1C9-0756-465C-A614-E43D3DC6D01A.jpeg

We own a apartment building and my wife screens the tenants. She's tough and as a result we have never had to evict anyone. I joke that I wouldn't qualify to live in my own building.

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22 minutes ago, Dog said:

We own a apartment building and my wife screens the tenants. She's tough and as a result we have never had to evict anyone. I joke that I wouldn't qualify to live in my own building.

"we own an apartment building"

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42 minutes ago, Dog said:
43 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

"we own an apartment building"

And?

You haven't heard? Owning property has been proven bad by political science!

On 12/13/2020 at 11:20 PM, AJ Oliver said:

But property, ..., is theft - and that I do not respect that in the slightest. 

 

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7 hours ago, mikewof said:

I'm supposed to sell a house that is inhabited by a tenant who can't be evicted? How would that work?

For your bad tenants, did the government tell you you that you weren't allowed to evict them?

 

it happened near me.  My friend's apartment house  was sold last friday....he's been out of work since October. Looking .....He found a p/t job to help but that only pays partial bills...still has college loans, car payment and needs to eat. Building owner told him on Thursday the place was sold.  He has until April 30 to find a new place and move out (as per the new owners) problem is, there's no place to move to as all the other apartments are being lived in by people who are in the same predicament...

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9 hours ago, mikewof said:

A federal judge has ruled that the Federal moratorium on evictions is unconstitutional ...

https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-federal-judge-rules-cdcs-pandemic-eviction-moratorium/story?id=76134385

"Although the COVID-19 pandemic persists, so does the Constitution."

Although as it stands, the moratorium is still in effect and will remain so until the end of March at least, unless it is extended again.

When the moratorium is lifted, our country will see the biggest wave of evictions in history. The courts may not even be able to keep up with all of the property owners who currently are forced to supply free rent to tenants who file the COVID exemption, even while their own costs mount.

Swoop right in and buy their homes.  You might not be able to walk down the street without being shot at.  That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

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7 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

maybe you should take it up with your lefty friends :D

There are a lot of people who have been hit hard by this. Formerly employed people who are now homeless, living in vans, homes all but foreclosed, with the eviction "tsunami" likely accompanied by a foreclosure avalanche too. It can be incredibly difficult for lots of people to bounce back, tenants and owners both.

That this reality is amusing to you is perhaps cause for a moment of self-reflection?

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6 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

because a roof over ones head should be a right, but having 2 roofs is just greedy.

They had a roof over their head before they signed their exemption from paying rent.

Then their rent went to other non-rent things. And now they're in a hole. I just don't understand the logic of the program. Why didn't the Trump administration just use Section-8? Why didn't the Biden administration convert the broken thing they inherited over to Section-8?

It's almost like the stopgap system was designed to force all of these evictions and foreclosures.

It's like a weird little time bomb left from Trump that Biden has made no effort to defuse.

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6 hours ago, billy backstay said:

Been off for a few days, so haven't read the whole thread.  Don't know about Mikes state, but supposedly CT will have a bunch of the recently granted FED Covid rental assistance money, released to states in January..  Supposedly CT got 217 million.  Sure hope I can help several Tenants apply for this, as we are owed quite a bit from several of them.

I was told by a local housing assistance guy who handles these Fed Covid programs, that once the program rolls out, we may get direct payments for up to 8 months, for Tenants who qualify for this program.....

Have you taken a look through the paperwork yet?

For just one house, it took me about 80 hours of work to get it all submitted, and still no payments.

But you got a housing assistance person's help, that's better than I ever got. In my case it was far more Kafkaesque ... email links that didn't work, a website that didn't work, voicemails, voicemails, voicemails. I finally got a call back from a beleaguered state employee who seemed to want to help, but didn't have access to the Federal requirements.

You'll see when you start filling out the forms, half of them are straight-up HUD forms that require a site inspection. If your tenants cooperate, that's helpful, otherwise you'll need a police standby to go into the rental like I did to stop a leak. And then I have to write broken doors and walls, which require repair before being eligible for HUD compliance.

 

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5 hours ago, Pedagogical Tom said:

A quaint notion, but which group has more voters?

 

Lots of "pandemic relief" seems to actually be more of a panicdemic power grab. Or, as in this case, property grab.

Could this be designed as just a big property grab? Homeowners outnumber renters 2 to 1 in the USA. But I read that the USA alone has produced more than 50 new billionaires since the COVID restrictions started.

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12 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Have you taken a look through the paperwork yet?

For just one house, it took me about 80 hours of work to get it all submitted, and still no payments.

But you got a housing assistance person's help, that's better than I ever got. In my case it was far more Kafkaesque ... email links that didn't work, a website that didn't work, voicemails, voicemails, voicemails. I finally got a call back from a beleaguered state employee who seemed to want to help, but didn't have access to the Federal requirements.

You'll see when you start filling out the forms, half of them are straight-up HUD forms that require a site inspection. If your tenants cooperate, that's helpful, otherwise you'll need a police standby to go into the rental like I did to stop a leak. And then I have to write broken doors and walls, which require repair before being eligible for HUD compliance.

 

 

I have not.  When I called in January there was no money left, but a new batch of money was coming from the Fed and the new program was to be operable in mid February.  Since then, I was told it had been put off to March.  I plan on calling them again on Monday.  That being said two Tenants, all on their own applied before the last programs money ran out, and received checks on their behalf without us doing anything except one small piece of paper, confirming they were our Tenants and they owed us back rent.

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6 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Yeah, I've often thought that the homeless problem could be solved with all those empty holiday homes and airbnbs 

There's 139 million dwellings in the USA, one for every 2.5 people.

9 million in Oz, one for every 2.6 people.

each home owner in the usa averages 2.4 rooms per person inc children.

we're  not far behind at 2.3

most other OECD countries average 1.2-1.6 rooms pp.

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/housing/

that's obscene.

Come the revolution, people like me, all alone with 2 cats and a dog in three bedroom, million dollar + townhouses (Mike's out of date :D ) will be relocated to bedsitters. 

I don't know about "obscene" but rather a facet of contemporary construction and occupancy rules. 

Older locations like Rome, NYC, London, etc., tend to get filled up in bedrooms because the land is so expensive.

In the newer suburbs though, it costs about the same to build a five bedroom home as a two bedroom home, the costs are mainly site related; water, flood control, streets, tax base. Adding a few extra walls to make more bedrooms is often a result of the county requirement to maintain minimum property taxes for that development.

And it's not going to turn around it seems, the global population rate increase is down near 1, and headed to zero by 2060. These homes are often good for hundreds of years, even in a place like Nairobi or India. 

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10 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

so the federal government attempts to support the people it represents and the constitution says no?

 

what a great piece of paper.

The problem is the CDC mandate, while it makes sense to do in a crisis, is an unfunded mandate.  Unless the gov't provides the same sort of assistance to the landlords as it does to the renters - it is grossly unfair.  There are people who own rentals who rely on that rent to put food on their own table and to pay the mortgages to keep the property from being taken away from them by the bank.  So it's not a cut and dried thing.

I'm one of those above btw, so it's personal for me too.  I have a renter who lost her job briefly and just stopped paying rent, even after she got a new job.  She got in her mind that this "moratorium on eviction" was a free ride and she was going to camp out rent free.  I tried to work with her to make small payments to catch up over time and I was massively flexible with her.  When she refused all comms to work it out, I showed up at her door and said I was going to file eviction papers.  That night she filed the necessary paperwork to pull the CDC "no eviction card".  I had to have a lawyer send her an official letter stating roughly that while the mandate might prevent me from evicting her now, even a filed eviction notice will crush any future chances of renting anywhere decent AND that she is still on the hook for back rent + interest for ever and that I will pursue her to the ends of the earth to get it.  But that if she started to make some attempt to catch back up, this would all go away.  Surprisingly, a payment arrived the next day with some extra catch up payments.  It all worked out, and yes I could probably have eaten having no payments for a little while..... but not everyone has that luxury nor has a shooting buddy and good friend who is a lawyer and would do that for free.  He bills at close to $600/hr.  A landlord barely hanging on by his or her teeth from going under themselves cannot afford to have their only source of income stopped as well.  So any "relief" from eviction better also include rent subsidies - or it IS absolutely unconstitutional.  

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10 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Shocking . What sort of people want to evict tenants and make them homeless in the midst of a pandemic?

Strange that Mike posts this without comment as he's skin in the game.

The sort of people who themselves will be homeless when the bank repossess their home for being unable to make the mortgage payment and be able to buy food for their family.  That's who.

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18 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

I have not.  When I called in January there was no money left, but a new batch of money was coming from the Fed and the new program was to be operable in mid February.  Since then, I was told it had been put off to March.  I plan on calling them again on Monday.  That being said two Tenants, all on their own applied before the last programs money ran out, and received checks on their behalf without us doing anything except one small piece of paper, confirming they were our Tenants and they owed us back rent.

They told me the same thing in January, no more funds. Then I reapplied and I got an automatic email that there are some funds. So far no payments, but I'm hopeful.

You seem to have good tenants, that's helpful.

One good thing that has come from all this though ... I haven't been able to afford a mechanic or body shop, I've become half decent at fixing my family's and friend's vehicles. I've wrenched at least ten vehicles back into service in less than a year. Maybe this is going to be my new post-apocalypse job!

 

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10 hours ago, mikewof said:

No decent property owner wants to evict tenants, it's a lose-lose proposition.

But the moratorium says that the tenant needs to only file the COVID exemption and then they can stop paying rent.

In my case, I have a mortgage and lots of costs on my grandmother's old house, I rented it to a tenant who needed it, and they filed the COVID exemption days later. The exemption claims that the tenant lost their jobs due to COVID, but they still need to attempt to pay some rent. In my case they still have jobs and have paid no rent since October. They won't pay gas, electric or water, and I can't shut it off, so I have to pay that for them. They've broken doors and walls and get into raging fights that end with visits from the police. And eviction is not allowed.

We have social safety nets to prevent homelessness, it's called Section-8 and I'm happy to rent Section-8, I have in the past. But there is no compliance check on the COVID exemption, it's just a blanket permission to not pay any rent.

Yes, I'm sure that it does help some people who have been genuinely impacted, but it's also apparently abused. If you feel proactive Meli, why not rent out your home to someone who breaks down doors and walls and doesn't pay rent. Then you'll have "skin in the game" too! Whee!

Yep, 100%.  I own several rental properties in town.  I have a current renter who did the exact same thing, filed the COVID paperwork because she thought it was a free ride.  Fortunately, my other two tenants are awesome and have had no troubles at all.  

I am attempting to buy another rental before the home prices rise any further.  We went and looked at a property that already had a family living there as tenants - which I would prefer as it saves the asspain of advertising and doing all the stuff to prep it to rent.  I would prefer to keep them in the home.  SWMBO and I went and looked at it.  It was pretty much the perfect rental -  good part of town, size, cost, etc.  We chatted to the husband and wife who were there and they were both unemployed.  Also while the place was not trashed, they also had not done a great deal to keep it clean.  But the lack of income was a Deal breaker...... we walked away.   While they might have been great tenants who would have found a way to keep up on rent, there no way was I taking the risk of dealing with a property that could be held hostage.  

And again most landlords (who are not giant corporations) have properties where the rent barely covers the mortgage on the home.  Any remainder is what pays the bills.  There are many of these landlords who themselves have become unemployed due to COVID and the rental income is their ONLY income that feeds them.  Where is the help for them?  I haven't followed it in great detail, but my understanding is even this $1.9 Trillion COVID aid package doesn't address property owners who have tenants not paying.  I hope I'm wrong on that.  

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10 hours ago, mikewof said:

Regardless, when the moratorium is lifted, there WILL be an eviction tsunami, I don't see how that can be avoided, nor do I see how this has anything to do with COVID. It seems that a better method would have just been to extend Section-8 benefits to people with demonstrated need, rather than their ability to sign a two-page COVID form. At least with Section-8, there are social workers who monitor the situation. But this COVID exemption is just a free-for-all, there is no oversight that I can see anywhere.

Yup

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7 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

because a roof over ones head should be a right, but having 2 roofs is just greedy.

YGTBSM!!!  How is owning a property to generate income any different than owning any other business to generate income????  It's called entrepreneurialism.  Isn't that supposed to be a good thing?? 

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16 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Yep, 100%.  I own several rental properties in town.  I have a current renter who did the exact same thing, filed the COVID paperwork because she thought it was a free ride.  Fortunately, my other two tenants are awesome and have had no troubles at all.  

I am attempting to buy another rental before the home prices rise any further.  We went and looked at a property that already had a family living there as tenants - which I would prefer as it saves the asspain of advertising and doing all the stuff to prep it to rent.  I would prefer to keep them in the home.  SWMBO and I went and looked at it.  It was pretty much the perfect rental -  good part of town, size, cost, etc.  We chatted to the husband and wife who were there and they were both unemployed.  Also while the place was not trashed, they also had not done a great deal to keep it clean.  Deal breaker...... we walked away.   While they might have been great tenants who would have found a way to keep up on rent, no way was I taking the risk of dealing with a property that was being held hostage.  

And again most landlords (who are not giant corporations) have properties where the rent barely covers the mortgage on the home.  Any remainder is what pays the bills.  There are many of these landlords who themselves have become unemployed due to COVID and the rental income is their ONLY income that feeds them.  Where is the help for them?  I haven't followed it in great detail, but my understanding is even this $1.9 Trillion COVID aid package doesn't address property owners who have tenants not paying.  I hope I'm wrong on that.  

The $1.9 trillion, the rule of thumb in these cases is that at least half of any assumed debt will find it's way into the pockets of financiers before the money hits the streets. In this case, I guess my kids are going to get the debt.

I'm not a property investor, but rather my family has been in this area since about 1850, so we have property that still is in the family, and I like to fix things, it kind of connects me to my family who died. My grandparents old house, it's definitely been a money pit, but a couple years ago between tenants, we had a family picnic there in the empty house, all the cousins, uncles, everyone. We got to relive so many memories all the cousins and their children. It was like a time machine, one of the best days ever. I never met my grampa Bill, but we drank some beer in his old house, and shared memories.

When I saw the damage from the current tenants, I didn't get upset, it was kind of reassuring, another chance to fix my grandparents house.

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6 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Yeah, I've often thought that the homeless problem could be solved with all those empty holiday homes and airbnbs 

There's 139 million dwellings in the USA, one for every 2.5 people.

9 million in Oz, one for every 2.6 people.

each home owner in the usa averages 2.4 rooms per person inc children.

we're  not far behind at 2.3

most other OECD countries average 1.2-1.6 rooms pp.

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/housing/

that's obscene.

Come the revolution, people like me, all alone with 2 cats and a dog in three bedroom, million dollar + townhouses (Mike's out of date :D ) will be relocated to bedsitters. 

I literally thought you could not be more stupid, but you've yet again proven me wrong.  <_<

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We are owed around 15 grand total, and a few thousand more as of March 1st.  Fortunately 3/4 of the condos have retired mortgages, so we are just squeaking by between the rents we do collect, Missus SSI, and my lousy paying job.  Just got to hang on by my fingernails, until August, when I get SSI, which will be more than the job, and I will retire from that, and drive a 10 passenger van for 20 hours a week, instead of 40 hours a week, starting at 6:30 AM. Van driver pays the same as the Contractor job at a Mil-Spec plant. Got pretty good overtime there, before Covid, but that's over.

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5 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

"we own an apartment building"

What's wrong with that, Komrade Meli?  Who is supposed to own it?  The state?

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6 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

We are owed around 15 grand total, and a few thousand more as of March 1st.  Fortunately 3/4 of the condos have retired mortgages, so we are just squeaking by between the rents we do collect, Missus SSI, and my lousy paying job.  Just got to hang on by my fingernails, until August, when I get SSI, which will be more than the job, and I will retire from that, and drive a 10 passenger van for 20 hours a week, instead of 40 hours a week, starting at 6:30 AM. Van driver pays the same as the Contractor job at a Mil-Spec plant. Got pretty good overtime there, before Covid, but that's over.

But yet ETS says you're greedy and meli thinks all landlords are millionaires and can't let their renters stay for nothing forever.  

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There’s no injunction as of yet so sit tight til appeal period runs. 
 

anyone looking to sell res property in CO or WA or OR, give me a shout at blocksail@gmail.com

Things are about to get sporty

 

 

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12 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

anyone looking to sell res property in CO or WA or OR, give me a shout at blocksail@gmail.com

Things are about to get sporty

 

"Anyone like you who buys investment property is a greedy cunt putting out people on the street and making them homeless"  - A likely @Shortforbob and @Ease the sheet. quote

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23 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

There’s no injunction as of yet so sit tight til appeal period runs. 
 

anyone looking to sell res property in CO or WA or OR, give me a shout at blocksail@gmail.com

Things are about to get sporty

Look at Wyoming. More inventory. Laramie, Cheyenne, for the Colorado industrial creep, Sheridan for the Montana spillover.

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24 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

There’s no injunction as of yet so sit tight til appeal period runs. 
 

anyone looking to sell res property in CO or WA or OR, give me a shout at blocksail@gmail.com

Things are about to get sporty

 

 

Why do you think this is a good time to buy?

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32 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

But yet ETS says you're greedy and meli thinks all landlords are millionaires and can't let their renters stay for nothing forever.  

That's definitely the narrative. I had a small claim against me, tenant changed her mind about a rental on the fourth of the month, her mom decided that the neighborhood had too many non-caucasians to be safe for her adult daughter. Wanted it all back, I offered deposit and half a month, I was willing to eat the other half. I never thought judge would find for her, sure enough, the evil landlord lost.

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11 hours ago, mikewof said:

No decent property owner wants to evict tenants, it's a lose-lose proposition.

But the moratorium says that the tenant needs to only file the COVID exemption and then they can stop paying rent.

In my case, I have a mortgage and lots of costs on my grandmother's old house, I rented it to a tenant who needed it, and they filed the COVID exemption days later. The exemption claims that the tenant lost their jobs due to COVID, but they still need to attempt to pay some rent. In my case they still have jobs and have paid no rent since October. They won't pay gas, electric or water, and I can't shut it off, so I have to pay that for them. They've broken doors and walls and get into raging fights that end with visits from the police. And eviction is not allowed.

We have social safety nets to prevent homelessness, it's called Section-8 and I'm happy to rent Section-8, I have in the past. But there is no compliance check on the COVID exemption, it's just a blanket permission to not pay any rent.

Yes, I'm sure that it does help some people who have been genuinely impacted, but it's also apparently abused. If you feel proactive Meli, why not rent out your home to someone who breaks down doors and walls and doesn't pay rent. Then you'll have "skin in the game" too! Whee!

Suck it up, Buttercup. You rented the house to a bunch of animals. Deal with it. 

 That said start talking to some lawyers, the eviction ban does not preclude the ability to seek damages after all this is over, and it will be over. Also review your landlord's house insurance policy. I'm sure a brilliant guy such as yourself bought the rider for vandalism, and is aware the ruling of one Texan judge in such matters is worth less than a moderately sized burrito fart. 

 

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7 hours ago, Dog said:

We own a apartment building and my wife screens the tenants. She's tough and as a result we have never had to evict anyone. I joke that I wouldn't qualify to live in my own building.

Your wife is a sharp cookie  . . 

I wouldn't rent to you either. 

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

What's wrong with that, Komrade Meli?  Who is supposed to own it?  The state?

Why not ??  About time the US caught up with the civilized world.  

FYI, the global capital of social housing is Vienna . .  

"Vienna’s city government owns and manages 220,000 housing units, which represent about 25 percent of the city’s housing stock." 

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_011314.html

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

But yet ETS says you're greedy and meli thinks all landlords are millionaires and can't let their renters stay for nothing forever.  

 

Don't recall who ETS is?  If I were greedy I would not try to work with people in their difficult times, and would simply boot them out instead!  I guess you could say I'm nearly a millionaire based on our equity in Real Estate, but it's not a liquid asset, and doesn't always pay the bills.   Tax consequences of selling are very onerous, as opposed to decent income once all are paid off, and all tenants are paying again...  I'm 65 now and bought first 2-family when I was 27, and running a maxi race boat, this has been a very long term retirement plan.

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2 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Why not ??  About time the US caught up with the civilized world.  

FYI, the global capital of social housing is Vienna . .  

"Vienna’s city government owns and manages 220,000 housing units, which represent about 25 percent of the city’s housing stock." 

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_011314.html

I guess Vienna's other 75% are just Greedy Kapitalist Kunts who haven't woken up to the New Socialist World Order yet.  Ammiright, aj?

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6 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

Don't recall who ETS is?  If I were greedy I would not try to work with people in their difficult times, and would simply boot them out instead!  I guess you could say I'm nearly a millionaire based on our equity in Real Estate, but it's not a liquid asset, and doesn't always pay the bills.   Tax consequences of selling are very onerous, as opposed to decent income once all are paid off, and all tenants are paying again...  I'm 65 now and bought first 2-family when I was 27, and running a maxi race boat, this has been a very long term retirement plan.

Well, according to AJ, you Are a capitalist, greedy, self-serving asshole.  The state should be running your rentals instead.  I would just do the right thing and get ahead of this if I were you - and sign your properties over to the state.  Just saying.

At least in my case, when the state comes to take my real estate investments - they will have all likely been lost in a boating accident.  ;)

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1 minute ago, Burning Man said:

Well, according to AJ, you Are a capitalist, greedy, self-serving asshole.

As I tole ya a hundred million times,  

never exaggerate. 

How about if you try reading the article cited before you spout ??? 

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9 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Well, according to AJ, you Are a capitalist, greedy, self-serving asshole.  The state should be running your rentals instead.  I would just do the right thing and get ahead of this if I were you - and sign your properties over to the state.  Just saying.

At least in my case, when the state comes to take my real estate investments - they will have all likely been lost in a boating accident.  ;)

 

If the Government wants to take our 16 PITA, Cheap, many Section 8, small, low end apartments, and give me a million bucks tax free, just show me where to sign the documents!! 

I will be greatly relieved NOT having to manage Rentals in my retirement, and free to travel more and visit the kids down south!!

OTOH hand, what kind of a safe return can I invest that million into, that's going to pay me more per month, than carrying on as I have been for 35+ years??

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I'm just pulling ya chains :)

I've no issue with people renting an apartment or house or two if they're good landlords and play by the rules. I've done it myself. Until there's a better way, landlords are a necessary weevil.

But I do have an issue with listed companies that own hundreds or even thousands of dwellings. 

When unemployed in the UK years ago, I walked into a job, filing maintenance requests with a property management company. 

I'd never realised that some single corporate entities hold the leases on literally thousands of peoples homes. I found it totally depressing having to file humbly and often poorly hand written requests for basic maintenance which were ignored. Mould in cupboards, leaking toilets etc, I quit.

Nah,   Come the revolution brother.

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3 hours ago, Burning Man said:

The problem is the CDC mandate, while it makes sense to do in a crisis, is an unfunded mandate.  Unless the gov't provides the same sort of assistance to the landlords as it does to the renters - it is grossly unfair.  There are people who own rentals who rely on that rent to put food on their own table and to pay the mortgages to keep the property from being taken away from them by the bank.  So it's not a cut and dried thing.

I'm one of those above btw, so it's personal for me too.  I have a renter who lost her job briefly and just stopped paying rent, even after she got a new job.  She got in her mind that this "moratorium on eviction" was a free ride and she was going to camp out rent free.  I tried to work with her to make small payments to catch up over time and I was massively flexible with her.  When she refused all comms to work it out, I showed up at her door and said I was going to file eviction papers.  That night she filed the necessary paperwork to pull the CDC "no eviction card".  I had to have a lawyer send her an official letter stating roughly that while the mandate might prevent me from evicting her now, even a filed eviction notice will crush any future chances of renting anywhere decent AND that she is still on the hook for back rent + interest for ever and that I will pursue her to the ends of the earth to get it.  But that if she started to make some attempt to catch back up, this would all go away.  Surprisingly, a payment arrived the next day with some extra catch up payments.  It all worked out, and yes I could probably have eaten having no payments for a little while..... but not everyone has that luxury nor has a shooting buddy and good friend who is a lawyer and would do that for free.  He bills at close to $600/hr.  A landlord barely hanging on by his or her teeth from going under themselves cannot afford to have their only source of income stopped as well.  So any "relief" from eviction better also include rent subsidies - or it IS absolutely unconstitutional.  

The bitching at the disconnect between the rent relief and the lack of compensation is warranted.

 

The moratorium should be spread right across the chain, from renter to mortgage provider.

But hey, capitalism with American characteristics....

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3 hours ago, Burning Man said:

YGTBSM!!!  How is owning a property to generate income any different than owning any other business to generate income????  It's called entrepreneurialism.  Isn't that supposed to be a good thing?? 

Investment? Entrepreneurialism?

Then don't whinge when it goes bad.   

 

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33 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

I'm just pulling ya chains :)

I've no issue with people renting an apartment or house or two if they're good landlords and play by the rules. I've done it myself. Until there's a better way, landlords are a necessary weevil.

But I do have an issue with listed companies that own hundreds or even thousands of dwellings. 

When unemployed in the UK years ago, I walked into a job, filing maintenance requests with a property management company. 

I'd never realised that some single corporate entities hold the leases on literally thousands of peoples homes. I found it totally depressing having to file humbly and often poorly hand written requests for basic maintenance which were ignored. Mould in cupboards, leaking toilets etc, I quit.

Nah,   Come the revolution brother.

Dream on. Not going to happen, at least here in Australia. Not for another 100 years or so anyway - property ownership is still way too widespread amongst the middle class & working class.

FKT

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23 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Investment? Entrepreneurialism?

Then don't whinge when it goes bad.   

 

We small time entrerpreneurs don't whinge!  We swalllow the profits and the  LOSSES, and often go broke, or lose our assets.  Unlike Wall Street and Corporate America.

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1 minute ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Dream on. Not going to happen, at least here in Australia. Not for another 100 years or so anyway - property ownership is still way too widespread amongst the middle class & working class.

FKT

Hmm, there's going to have to be some change faster than that though. Home ownership is an impossible dream for many now with property prices in Melbourne and Sydney being what they are. And the desperate renters are increasingly young and educated.

The tiny house my son rents for $400 pw,15km outside the city  sold for 1.2 Million a year ago

one of these

814-816 Glen Huntly Road, Caulfield South VIC 3162

It's a joke when wages are stagnant and the workforce is increasingly casualised.

Something has to give. 

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Just now, Shortforbob said:

Hmm, there's going to have to be some change faster than that though. Home ownership is an impossible dream for many now with property prices in Melbourne and Sydney being what they are. And the desperate renters are increasingly young and educated.

The tiny house my son rents for $400 pw,15km outside the city  sold for 1.2 Million a year ago

one of these

814-816 Glen Huntly Road, Caulfield South VIC 3162

It's a joke when wages are stagnant and the workforce is increasingly casualised.

Something has to give. 

Yeah it's not good. My children are in well paid jobs, one is renting, one owns/pays off an apartment, the last is still in the big house with her mother.

The problem - one of them anyway, there are lots - is the conflation of a place to live with an investment/asset that inflates in value over time.

FKT

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9 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yeah it's not good. My children are in well paid jobs, one is renting, one owns/pays off an apartment, the last is still in the big house with her mother.

The problem - one of them anyway, there are lots - is the conflation of a place to live with an investment/asset that inflates in value over time.

FKT

and short term investors. how the hell can they compete or borrow a million dollars. My first house was exactly like that one. I bought it for 60,000, thirty years ago on the joint wages of two base level PS jobs. I'm pretty sure wages haven't increased x 20 in the last 30 years.:rolleyes:

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8 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

and short term investors. how the hell can they compete or borrow a million dollars. My first house was exactly like that one. I bought it for 60,000, thirty years ago on the joint wages of two base level PS jobs. I'm pretty sure wages haven't increased x 20 in the last 30 years.:rolleyes:

Yeah same. Paid $80K in 1985 for a house currently 'valued' at maybe $1.5 million. OK I did $150K worth of upgrades etc but basically it's the land it sits on that's worth the money. If it ever sold it'd be demolished before the stamp on the development plans was dry and 5-6 villas would be going up at over $1 million each.

Big part of the reason is something you're in favour of - migration and in your mindset unlimited migration. All those people need somewhere to live. Sydney & Melbourne are 2 of the most popular destinations. Supply & demand baby, there goes the house prices. Your kids can't afford a house? Policies you support are part of the reason, not that I'd expect you to join those dots.

I've seen Sydney grow from around 2 million to over 6 million and I can say that it's done the place no favours at all.

Anyway, evictions - all too hard for me. I think part of the problem in Oz is the short term mindset around property leases so tenants don't have security of tenure and landlords have less incentive to rent for income rather than capital gain. But long leases decrease flexibility and people like you would undoubtedly want them weighted so tenants could stay ad infinitum yet move without notice or break fees so - shrug. I've never had the urge to control someone else's living space or arrangements and don't want the hassle of being a landlord so what would I know.

Rather go sailing and as the tide is rising, my GF is on the way down with snacks et al - laters...

FKT

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1 hour ago, billy backstay said:

We small time entrerpreneurs don't whinge!  We swalllow the profits and the  LOSSES, and often go broke, or lose our assets.  Unlike Wall Street and Corporate America.

 

Anyone think Trump will privatize the losses, when his $400 or so million in notes, owed to Deutshce Bank,  come due, soon?

My Grandfather once told me; "If you owe the bank a Million", they own you.  If you owe them tens or hundreds of millions, YOU OWN THEM".......

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