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8 hours ago, Mudsailor said:

Was it the ketches built for the 1993/94 RTW race or were there any later launches anywhere?

That is a good question. They were kind of neat. I saw them up close in Portsmouth in 93. I liked how the Clipper bow made an appearance in the final form of the IOR!

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5 hours ago, fastyacht said:

That is a good question. They were kind of neat. I saw them up close in Portsmouth in 93. I liked how the Clipper bow made an appearance in the final form of the IOR!

I doubt IOR directly encouraged the clipper bows, but a couple of thing happened to spawn them - at least for the Whitbread.

Due to the nature of the Whitbread course little or no emphasis was put on upwind ability, which is why ketches began proliferating in that particular race.  IOR always allowed more SA for multi masted boats - to compensate for the fact they are dogs upwind.  But if you do like Chance did on some of his early 70's ketch rig big IOR boats and spread the masts further apart, you gain back a little and the clipper bow allows you to do this.

Secondly, and I was not aware of this, apparently by 1993, IOR allowed Asymms: http://rbsailing.blogspot.com/2014/12/new-zealand-endeavour-farr-maxi.html so the clipper bow was effectively an early days prod.

Finally, also interesting to note that NZ Endeavour had a bulb keel,  which I've always claimed you would never find on an IOR boat.  Although again, may have been something unique to the Whitbread since they were also reducing foil size for offwind speed I assume and stability was required for reaching.  On top of that, you also can't, or won't stack the rail with bodies in such a race.

Actually interesting how Whitbread established it's own separate and unique species of IOR design so to speak.

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When was the last IOR-50s regatta?

When did the ICAYA last use IOR as the level-setting rule for Maxis?

When was the last time an IOR class was recognized in the Kenwood Cup?  (1992?)

What about Admiral's Cup?  Sardinia?  Southern Cross?  Sydney-Hobart?

IIRC, IOR was still a "thing" in the 1993 transpac, but (except for the sleds) there were only a couple of IOR-rated boats, and the class disappeared after that instance.

 

 

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

When was the last IOR-50s regatta?

When did the ICAYA last use IOR as the level-setting rule for Maxis?

When was the last time an IOR class was recognized in the Kenwood Cup?  (1992?)

What about Admiral's Cup?  Sardinia?  Southern Cross?  Sydney-Hobart?

IIRC, IOR was still a "thing" in the 1993 transpac, but (except for the sleds) there were only a couple of IOR-rated boats, and the class disappeared after that instance.

 

 

By that measure the last IOR boat built may have been the SC 70 Pyewacket.

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13 minutes ago, jhc said:

By that measure the last IOR boat built may have been the SC 70 Pyewacket.

I think the last SC-70 built was Orient Express, launched a few months before the '93 transpac.  The SC-70 Pyewacket (not to be confused with the NM Pyewacket or the Andrews Pyewacket) was launched in 1990, IIRC

But the broader point is probably pretty close.  The last IOR-based design built might well have been Pyewacket, an Andrews-70 built in 1997.

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

When was the last IOR-50s regatta?

When did the ICAYA last use IOR as the level-setting rule for Maxis?

When was the last time an IOR class was recognized in the Kenwood Cup?  (1992?)

What about Admiral's Cup?  Sardinia?  Southern Cross?  Sydney-Hobart?

IIRC, IOR was still a "thing" in the 1993 transpac, but (except for the sleds) there were only a couple of IOR-rated boats, and the class disappeared after that instance.

 

 

http://rbsailing.blogspot.com/search/label/50-Foot Class

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9 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I think the last SC-70 built was Orient Express, launched a few months before the '93 transpac.  The SC-70 Pyewacket (not to be confused with the NM Pyewacket or the Andrews Pyewacket) was launched in 1990, IIRC

But the broader point is probably pretty close.  The last IOR-based design built might well have been Pyewacket, an Andrews-70 built in 1997.

Ha, ha. Alternative facts? My recollection was SC 70 Pyewacket's first Transpac was 1993. Afterward Disney turboed the boat, and the next Transpac had "Turbo sleds". 

I recall Disney saying something to the effect that he was not going to spend a million dollars, and get beat racing in a level rated class again.

That ended the sled class, and the IOR in Transpac.

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25 minutes ago, jhc said:

Alternative facts? My recollection was SC 70 Pyewacket's first Transpac was 1993.

Heh.  I'd put money on SC-70 Pyewacket (hull #18) being in the 1991 Transpac.... 

(not to mention, I raced against the SC-70 Pyewacket on Blondie in the '92 LAYC summer-sleds regatta while Orient Express - hull #19 - was still built built....)

The Turbo-70s (led by Cheval-95 and Pyewacket) made their debut in the 1995 TP

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27 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

1993 Admirals Cup was most definitely still (at least paritally) IOR. I saw lots of strange and interesting things in the water and on the hard that year.

Was that the year of Juan Alphabet's Krazy K-yote with the unstayed partial wingmast?  What a horror.

Juan Kouyoumdgjian – Top Yacht Design

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1 minute ago, P_Wop said:

Was that the year of Juan Alphabet's Krazy K-yote with the unstayed partial wingmast?  What a horror.

Juan Kouyoumdgjian – Top Yacht Design

Remember it well, that didn't work out very well for them that year.  There were some angry people around.

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1 minute ago, mad said:

Remember it well, that didn't work out very well for them that year.  There were some angry people around.

Juan K went on to completely bugger up the very quick lightweight Fortuna for the 93-94 Witless race, turning her into a ketch with a huge unstayed mizzen.  This of course fell down at the first available opportunity, followed somewhat inexplicably by the main mast.  Lawrie Smith wasn't impressed.

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3 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

Juan K went on to completely bugger up the very quick lightweight Fortuna for the 93-94 Witless race, turning her into a ketch with a huge unstayed mizzen.  This of course fell down at the first available opportunity, followed somewhat inexplicably by the main mast.  Lawrie Smith wasn't impressed.

Remember that has well, didn't they drop the other stick on the way back? 

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1 minute ago, mad said:

Remember that has well, didn't they drop the other stick on the way back? 

Yes, the main rig fell over too.  Nobody's quite sure why and how...

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28 minutes ago, jhc said:

Yes, exactly

<lol>  and while Cheval-95 was a new-in-1995 Choate build, Pyewacket was a turbo'd rig on a five-year-old (1990) SC-70 hull. 

Or maybe that's just more alternative facts...

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Ok, so 93 Transpac had an IOR class, 93 admirals cup was IOR.  Class listing for 95 transpac does not list a rating rule at all.
 Now I did find that there was a One ton cup in ‘94 and even a quarter ton cup in ‘96! , the last winner of the 1/4 ton cup was Per Elisa, won in both 95 and 96, so maybe the last boat built and rated under IOR?

 

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

<lol>  and while Cheval-95 was a new-in-1995 Choate build, Pyewacket was a turbo'd rig on a five-year-old (1990) SC-70 hull. 

Or maybe that's just more alternative facts...

I’ve found the ‘91 Transpac program, with pyewacket listed as 1990 SC70. 
I stand corrected.

Guess I own those alternative facts!

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2 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Was that the year of Juan Alphabet's Krazy K-yote with the unstayed partial wingmast?  What a horror.

Juan Kouyoumdgjian – Top Yacht Design

According to the Juan K website that was 1999 as the IMS 50’ big boat

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15 minutes ago, Mudsailor said:

According to the Juan K website that was 1999 as the IMS 50’ big boat

I thought IMS was supposed to promote "normal" boats?

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14 minutes ago, Mudsailor said:

According to the Juan K website that was 1999 as the IMS 50’ big boat

You're right.  I can't find pix of the earlier boat.

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1 minute ago, bridhb said:

I thought IMS was supposed to promote "normal" boats?

LOL. IMS was internationalization of MHS. It worked remarkably well rating existing boats across a broad spectrum remarkably fairly and gave old CCA boats a second life from the late 80s to the mid 90s but then like verything, it went to shit when designers figured out how to game it.
ALL rules can be gamed.

 

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2 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Was that the year of Juan Alphabet's Krazy K-yote with the unstayed partial wingmast?  What a horror.

 

1993 was the year the Irish skipper put his boat on the bricks.

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14 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Juan K went on to completely bugger up the very quick lightweight Fortuna for the 93-94 Witless race, turning her into a ketch with a huge unstayed mizzen.  This of course fell down at the first available opportunity, followed somewhat inexplicably by the main mast.  Lawrie Smith wasn't impressed.

Nothing to do with JuanK old mate, Javier, Blinks, Damon and yours truly involved in that.  Was effing quick but then it came apart - remember what happened in the first few hours of the race and everyone woke up to what the thing could do...

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15 hours ago, fastyacht said:

How did JK keep getting projects? Never made sense.

On the other hand, he is very clever and has designed some innovative and fast boats.  I suspect that if he didn’t have the long track record of structural failure that he would be far more successful.  The other thing about Juan K that rubs people the wrong way is that he’s one of those designers that’s always looking for a loophole, Krazy k yote being a perfect example of this.  

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13 hours ago, fastyacht said:

1993 was the year the Irish skipper put his boat on the bricks.

Jameson on the rocks was a great drinks promotion that year. 

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18 hours ago, mad said:

Remember it well, that didn't work out very well for them that year.  There were some angry people around.

Is that the one that the rig tipped forward 

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5 hours ago, hughw said:

Nothing to do with JuanK old mate, Javier, Blinks, Damon and yours truly involved in that.  Was effing quick but then it came apart - remember what happened in the first few hours of the race and everyone woke up to what the thing could do...

Sorry, old mate.  Right again.  I had always thought JK was responsible, but....  Sad that the mizzen fell over, but a bit of a mystery why the main went over too.  Probably not wise to discuss some of the rumors about that.

I didn't know she was that fast.  But, again, what do I know...?

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35 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

Sorry, old mate.  Right again.  I had always thought JK was responsible, but....  Sad that the mizzen fell over, but a bit of a mystery why the main went over too.  Probably not wise to discuss some of the rumors about that.

I didn't know she was that fast.  But, again, what do I know...?

93 was the Last Gasp for Big Tobacco.

Winston, Merit, Fortuna. 

 

And it became the 1st instance of Volvo. Too bad Saab didnt get in the fray.

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Oh god I remember the frame they built aft of the stern to support that mizzen, crazy stuff, dunno how they ever thought it would work:blink:

Edit, found a picture of it, not too many of them around with her in this configuration... 

 

 

21 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Juan K went on to completely bugger up the very quick lightweight Fortuna for the 93-94 Witless race, turning her into a ketch with a huge unstayed mizzen.  This of course fell down at the first available opportunity, followed somewhat inexplicably by the main mast.  Lawrie Smith wasn't impressed.

_20210301_181150.JPG

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38 minutes ago, 45Roller said:

Oh god I remember the frame they built aft of the stern to support that mizzen, crazy stuff, dunno how they ever thought it would work:blink:

Edit, found a picture of it, not too many of them around with her in this configuration... 

_20210301_181150.JPG

Chance did that widely spaced mizzen rig in the early 70's - Equation? Ondine?

It was described as "Two sloops sailing in close company".

I think he was the first to try it.

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1 hour ago, 45Roller said:

Oh god I remember the frame they built aft of the stern to support that mizzen, crazy stuff, dunno how they ever thought it would work:blink:

Edit, found a picture of it, not too many of them around with her in this configuration... 

 

A good engineer can make anything work.  Fortuna may not have had a backstay, but it doesn't look like a freestanding mizzen - looks like there were chainplates and side stays.

Brit Chance made it work with Ondine IV with a proportionately larger mizzen and the frame (bumpkin) looks even larger and more complex.  And that was going on almost 50 years ago.

Note that the "As Sailed " bumpkin looks much larger than the one shown in the drawing:

1974-ONDINE.jpg

Ondine-IV.png

1974-ONDINE-IV-Boating.jpg

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1 hour ago, P_Wop said:
7 hours ago, hughw said:

Nothing to do with JuanK old mate, Javier, Blinks, Damon and yours truly involved in that.  Was effing quick but then it came apart - remember what happened in the first few hours of the race and everyone woke up to what the thing could do...

Sorry, old mate.  Right again.  I had always thought JK was responsible, but....  Sad that the mizzen fell over, but a bit of a mystery why the main went over too.  Probably not wise to discuss some of the rumors about that.

I didn't know she was that fast.  But, again, what do I know...?

Definitely not here anyway.;)

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4 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

A good engineer can make anything work Fortuna may not have had a backstay, but it doesn't look like a freestanding mizzen - looks like there were chainplates and side stays.

Brit Chance made it work with Ondine IV with a proportionately larger mizzen and the frame (bumpkin) looks even larger and more complex:

 

 

You are of course correct mate, I was just talking about Fortuna Lights, not other more successful iterations of the idea, 

Thanks for the info on Ondine :)

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15 hours ago, 45Roller said:

Oh god I remember the frame they built aft of the stern to support that mizzen, crazy stuff, dunno how they ever thought it would work:blink:

Edit, found a picture of it, not too many of them around with her in this configuration... 

 

"A good engineer can make anything work.  Fortuna may not have had a backstay, but it doesn't look like a freestanding mizzen - looks like there were chainplates and side stays. "

Half height stays on the mizzen and then runners.   Boat was extended, bumped here and there, but we all wondered what would happen in the deep South or if the additions would part company and do their own thing!     Maybe just as well it didn't make it that far...

However pace it did have -reaching down the back of the IOW after the start and comment from I forget who was 'Smith's on the pace' 

Good fun project though, mizzen was 1" shorter than the main mast to qualify...probably still got the files on it somewhere.   As you say  Jerome, best keep the rumours on the other stick falling off to ourselves:)  

 

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16 minutes ago, hughw said:

"A good engineer can make anything work.  Fortuna may not have had a backstay, but it doesn't look like a freestanding mizzen - looks like there were chainplates and side stays. "

Half height stays on the mizzen and then runners.   Boat was extended, bumped here and there, but we all wondered what would happen in the deep South or if the additions would part company and do their own thing!     Maybe just as well it didn't make it that far...

However pace it did have -reaching down the back of the IOW after the start and comment from I forget who was 'Smith's on the pace' 

Good fun project though, mizzen was 1" shorter than the main mast to qualify...probably still got the files on it somewhere.   As you say  Jerome, best keep the rumours on the other stick falling off to ourselves:)  

 

Great, thanks for the extra information 

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On 3/1/2021 at 5:34 PM, fastyacht said:

93 was the Last Gasp for Big Tobacco.

Winston, Merit, Fortuna. 

 

And it became the 1st instance of Volvo. Too bad Saab didnt get in the fray.

97/98 merit cup & silk cut

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I think the answer to your question and not a 93/94 maxi is Pinta the 1992 one-ton built/launched just after the launch of Endeavor (Nov 92). It stayed somewhat based in NZL with Russell Coutts as skipper/tactician, Peter Lester as helmsman, Don Cowie etc. Pinta started 1993 by winning the One Ton Cup in Cagliari, Sardinia sailing for Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron. Pinta then sailed for Germany in the Admirals Cup, which I believe they also won. Those were the last times those events were sailed IOR as stated above .. 

 

97C755AE-8026-4BB7-AE69-ACD5A28709FD.jpeg

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42 minutes ago, .......................... said:

I think the answer to your question and not a 93/94 maxi is Pinta the 1992 one-ton built/launched just after the launch of Endeavor (Nov 92). It stayed somewhat based in NZL with Russell Coutts as skipper/tactician, Peter Lester as helmsman, Don Cowie etc. Pinta started 1993 by winning the One Ton Cup in Cagliari, Sardinia sailing for Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron. Pinta then sailed for Germany in the Admirals Cup, which I believe they also won. Those were the last times those events were sailed IOR as stated above .. 

 

97C755AE-8026-4BB7-AE69-ACD5A28709FD.jpeg

Pinta '92 during Breskens sailing weekend 2017:

image.thumb.png.679fb4df31224752e83c5d2e5f562eff.png

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