Mudsailor 90 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Was it the ketches built for the 1993/94 RTW race or were there any later launches anywhere? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fastyacht 1,601 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 8 hours ago, Mudsailor said: Was it the ketches built for the 1993/94 RTW race or were there any later launches anywhere? That is a good question. They were kind of neat. I saw them up close in Portsmouth in 93. I liked how the Clipper bow made an appearance in the final form of the IOR! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
12 metre 389 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 5 hours ago, fastyacht said: That is a good question. They were kind of neat. I saw them up close in Portsmouth in 93. I liked how the Clipper bow made an appearance in the final form of the IOR! I doubt IOR directly encouraged the clipper bows, but a couple of thing happened to spawn them - at least for the Whitbread. Due to the nature of the Whitbread course little or no emphasis was put on upwind ability, which is why ketches began proliferating in that particular race. IOR always allowed more SA for multi masted boats - to compensate for the fact they are dogs upwind. But if you do like Chance did on some of his early 70's ketch rig big IOR boats and spread the masts further apart, you gain back a little and the clipper bow allows you to do this. Secondly, and I was not aware of this, apparently by 1993, IOR allowed Asymms: http://rbsailing.blogspot.com/2014/12/new-zealand-endeavour-farr-maxi.html so the clipper bow was effectively an early days prod. Finally, also interesting to note that NZ Endeavour had a bulb keel, which I've always claimed you would never find on an IOR boat. Although again, may have been something unique to the Whitbread since they were also reducing foil size for offwind speed I assume and stability was required for reaching. On top of that, you also can't, or won't stack the rail with bodies in such a race. Actually interesting how Whitbread established it's own separate and unique species of IOR design so to speak. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sledracr 660 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 When was the last IOR-50s regatta? When did the ICAYA last use IOR as the level-setting rule for Maxis? When was the last time an IOR class was recognized in the Kenwood Cup? (1992?) What about Admiral's Cup? Sardinia? Southern Cross? Sydney-Hobart? IIRC, IOR was still a "thing" in the 1993 transpac, but (except for the sleds) there were only a couple of IOR-rated boats, and the class disappeared after that instance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jhc 152 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, sledracr said: When was the last IOR-50s regatta? When did the ICAYA last use IOR as the level-setting rule for Maxis? When was the last time an IOR class was recognized in the Kenwood Cup? (1992?) What about Admiral's Cup? Sardinia? Southern Cross? Sydney-Hobart? IIRC, IOR was still a "thing" in the 1993 transpac, but (except for the sleds) there were only a couple of IOR-rated boats, and the class disappeared after that instance. By that measure the last IOR boat built may have been the SC 70 Pyewacket. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sledracr 660 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 13 minutes ago, jhc said: By that measure the last IOR boat built may have been the SC 70 Pyewacket. I think the last SC-70 built was Orient Express, launched a few months before the '93 transpac. The SC-70 Pyewacket (not to be confused with the NM Pyewacket or the Andrews Pyewacket) was launched in 1990, IIRC But the broader point is probably pretty close. The last IOR-based design built might well have been Pyewacket, an Andrews-70 built in 1997. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mad 3,949 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, sledracr said: When was the last IOR-50s regatta? When did the ICAYA last use IOR as the level-setting rule for Maxis? When was the last time an IOR class was recognized in the Kenwood Cup? (1992?) What about Admiral's Cup? Sardinia? Southern Cross? Sydney-Hobart? IIRC, IOR was still a "thing" in the 1993 transpac, but (except for the sleds) there were only a couple of IOR-rated boats, and the class disappeared after that instance. http://rbsailing.blogspot.com/search/label/50-Foot Class Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fastyacht 1,601 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1993 Admirals Cup was most definitely still (at least paritally) IOR. I saw lots of strange and interesting things in the water and on the hard that year. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jhc 152 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 9 minutes ago, sledracr said: I think the last SC-70 built was Orient Express, launched a few months before the '93 transpac. The SC-70 Pyewacket (not to be confused with the NM Pyewacket or the Andrews Pyewacket) was launched in 1990, IIRC But the broader point is probably pretty close. The last IOR-based design built might well have been Pyewacket, an Andrews-70 built in 1997. Ha, ha. Alternative facts? My recollection was SC 70 Pyewacket's first Transpac was 1993. Afterward Disney turboed the boat, and the next Transpac had "Turbo sleds". I recall Disney saying something to the effect that he was not going to spend a million dollars, and get beat racing in a level rated class again. That ended the sled class, and the IOR in Transpac. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sledracr 660 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 25 minutes ago, jhc said: Alternative facts? My recollection was SC 70 Pyewacket's first Transpac was 1993. Heh. I'd put money on SC-70 Pyewacket (hull #18) being in the 1991 Transpac.... (not to mention, I raced against the SC-70 Pyewacket on Blondie in the '92 LAYC summer-sleds regatta while Orient Express - hull #19 - was still built built....) The Turbo-70s (led by Cheval-95 and Pyewacket) made their debut in the 1995 TP Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P_Wop 1,994 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 27 minutes ago, fastyacht said: 1993 Admirals Cup was most definitely still (at least paritally) IOR. I saw lots of strange and interesting things in the water and on the hard that year. Was that the year of Juan Alphabet's Krazy K-yote with the unstayed partial wingmast? What a horror. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mad 3,949 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, P_Wop said: Was that the year of Juan Alphabet's Krazy K-yote with the unstayed partial wingmast? What a horror. Remember it well, that didn't work out very well for them that year. There were some angry people around. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P_Wop 1,994 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, mad said: Remember it well, that didn't work out very well for them that year. There were some angry people around. Juan K went on to completely bugger up the very quick lightweight Fortuna for the 93-94 Witless race, turning her into a ketch with a huge unstayed mizzen. This of course fell down at the first available opportunity, followed somewhat inexplicably by the main mast. Lawrie Smith wasn't impressed. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mad 3,949 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 3 minutes ago, P_Wop said: Juan K went on to completely bugger up the very quick lightweight Fortuna for the 93-94 Witless race, turning her into a ketch with a huge unstayed mizzen. This of course fell down at the first available opportunity, followed somewhat inexplicably by the main mast. Lawrie Smith wasn't impressed. Remember that has well, didn't they drop the other stick on the way back? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P_Wop 1,994 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, mad said: Remember that has well, didn't they drop the other stick on the way back? Yes, the main rig fell over too. Nobody's quite sure why and how... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jhc 152 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 23 minutes ago, sledracr said: The Turbo-70s (led by Cheval-95 and Pyewacket) made their debut in the 1995 TP Yes, exactly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fastyacht 1,601 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 33 minutes ago, P_Wop said: Yes, the main rig fell over too. Nobody's quite sure why and how... How did JK keep getting projects? Never made sense. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sledracr 660 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 28 minutes ago, jhc said: Yes, exactly <lol> and while Cheval-95 was a new-in-1995 Choate build, Pyewacket was a turbo'd rig on a five-year-old (1990) SC-70 hull. Or maybe that's just more alternative facts... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mudsailor 90 Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 Ok, so 93 Transpac had an IOR class, 93 admirals cup was IOR. Class listing for 95 transpac does not list a rating rule at all. Now I did find that there was a One ton cup in ‘94 and even a quarter ton cup in ‘96! , the last winner of the 1/4 ton cup was Per Elisa, won in both 95 and 96, so maybe the last boat built and rated under IOR? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jhc 152 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, sledracr said: <lol> and while Cheval-95 was a new-in-1995 Choate build, Pyewacket was a turbo'd rig on a five-year-old (1990) SC-70 hull. Or maybe that's just more alternative facts... I’ve found the ‘91 Transpac program, with pyewacket listed as 1990 SC70. I stand corrected. Guess I own those alternative facts! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mudsailor 90 Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 2 hours ago, P_Wop said: Was that the year of Juan Alphabet's Krazy K-yote with the unstayed partial wingmast? What a horror. According to the Juan K website that was 1999 as the IMS 50’ big boat 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jhc 152 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 ‘94 Kenwood cup was ims. Were ior boats still being built? Series built boats, yes. Custom builds, I doubt it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fastyacht 1,601 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 2 hours ago, P_Wop said: Yes, the main rig fell over too. Nobody's quite sure why and how... https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/sailing-smith-is-ordered-out-of-whitbread-1508043.html I dont see any mention of Juan K... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fastyacht 1,601 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Juan K was in nappies when IOR was a thing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bridhb 542 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 15 minutes ago, Mudsailor said: According to the Juan K website that was 1999 as the IMS 50’ big boat I thought IMS was supposed to promote "normal" boats? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P_Wop 1,994 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 14 minutes ago, Mudsailor said: According to the Juan K website that was 1999 as the IMS 50’ big boat You're right. I can't find pix of the earlier boat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fastyacht 1,601 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, bridhb said: I thought IMS was supposed to promote "normal" boats? LOL. IMS was internationalization of MHS. It worked remarkably well rating existing boats across a broad spectrum remarkably fairly and gave old CCA boats a second life from the late 80s to the mid 90s but then like verything, it went to shit when designers figured out how to game it. ALL rules can be gamed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fastyacht 1,601 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 2 hours ago, P_Wop said: Was that the year of Juan Alphabet's Krazy K-yote with the unstayed partial wingmast? What a horror. 1993 was the year the Irish skipper put his boat on the bricks. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hughw 54 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 14 hours ago, P_Wop said: Juan K went on to completely bugger up the very quick lightweight Fortuna for the 93-94 Witless race, turning her into a ketch with a huge unstayed mizzen. This of course fell down at the first available opportunity, followed somewhat inexplicably by the main mast. Lawrie Smith wasn't impressed. Nothing to do with JuanK old mate, Javier, Blinks, Damon and yours truly involved in that. Was effing quick but then it came apart - remember what happened in the first few hours of the race and everyone woke up to what the thing could do... 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
eliboat 328 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 15 hours ago, fastyacht said: How did JK keep getting projects? Never made sense. On the other hand, he is very clever and has designed some innovative and fast boats. I suspect that if he didn’t have the long track record of structural failure that he would be far more successful. The other thing about Juan K that rubs people the wrong way is that he’s one of those designers that’s always looking for a loophole, Krazy k yote being a perfect example of this. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Presuming Ed 189 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 Remember reading a mention in Seahorse a while ago that IOR was still going in Japan long after it died everywhere else. I suppose the ORC would know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mad 3,949 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 13 hours ago, fastyacht said: 1993 was the year the Irish skipper put his boat on the bricks. Jameson on the rocks was a great drinks promotion that year. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ROADKILL666 340 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 18 hours ago, mad said: Remember it well, that didn't work out very well for them that year. There were some angry people around. Is that the one that the rig tipped forward Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P_Wop 1,994 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 5 hours ago, hughw said: Nothing to do with JuanK old mate, Javier, Blinks, Damon and yours truly involved in that. Was effing quick but then it came apart - remember what happened in the first few hours of the race and everyone woke up to what the thing could do... Sorry, old mate. Right again. I had always thought JK was responsible, but.... Sad that the mizzen fell over, but a bit of a mystery why the main went over too. Probably not wise to discuss some of the rumors about that. I didn't know she was that fast. But, again, what do I know...? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fastyacht 1,601 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 35 minutes ago, P_Wop said: Sorry, old mate. Right again. I had always thought JK was responsible, but.... Sad that the mizzen fell over, but a bit of a mystery why the main went over too. Probably not wise to discuss some of the rumors about that. I didn't know she was that fast. But, again, what do I know...? 93 was the Last Gasp for Big Tobacco. Winston, Merit, Fortuna. And it became the 1st instance of Volvo. Too bad Saab didnt get in the fray. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Roller 359 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 Oh god I remember the frame they built aft of the stern to support that mizzen, crazy stuff, dunno how they ever thought it would work Edit, found a picture of it, not too many of them around with her in this configuration... 21 hours ago, P_Wop said: Juan K went on to completely bugger up the very quick lightweight Fortuna for the 93-94 Witless race, turning her into a ketch with a huge unstayed mizzen. This of course fell down at the first available opportunity, followed somewhat inexplicably by the main mast. Lawrie Smith wasn't impressed. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SloopJonB 8,595 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 38 minutes ago, 45Roller said: Oh god I remember the frame they built aft of the stern to support that mizzen, crazy stuff, dunno how they ever thought it would work Edit, found a picture of it, not too many of them around with her in this configuration... Chance did that widely spaced mizzen rig in the early 70's - Equation? Ondine? It was described as "Two sloops sailing in close company". I think he was the first to try it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
12 metre 389 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 1 hour ago, 45Roller said: Oh god I remember the frame they built aft of the stern to support that mizzen, crazy stuff, dunno how they ever thought it would work Edit, found a picture of it, not too many of them around with her in this configuration... A good engineer can make anything work. Fortuna may not have had a backstay, but it doesn't look like a freestanding mizzen - looks like there were chainplates and side stays. Brit Chance made it work with Ondine IV with a proportionately larger mizzen and the frame (bumpkin) looks even larger and more complex. And that was going on almost 50 years ago. Note that the "As Sailed " bumpkin looks much larger than the one shown in the drawing: 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mad 3,949 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 1 hour ago, P_Wop said: 7 hours ago, hughw said: Nothing to do with JuanK old mate, Javier, Blinks, Damon and yours truly involved in that. Was effing quick but then it came apart - remember what happened in the first few hours of the race and everyone woke up to what the thing could do... Sorry, old mate. Right again. I had always thought JK was responsible, but.... Sad that the mizzen fell over, but a bit of a mystery why the main went over too. Probably not wise to discuss some of the rumors about that. I didn't know she was that fast. But, again, what do I know...? Definitely not here anyway. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Roller 359 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 4 minutes ago, 12 metre said: A good engineer can make anything work. Fortuna may not have had a backstay, but it doesn't look like a freestanding mizzen - looks like there were chainplates and side stays. Brit Chance made it work with Ondine IV with a proportionately larger mizzen and the frame (bumpkin) looks even larger and more complex: You are of course correct mate, I was just talking about Fortuna Lights, not other more successful iterations of the idea, Thanks for the info on Ondine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fastyacht 1,601 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 I loved it when more than one mast happened. Modern boats are so boring. I am going to design a hydrofoil schooner. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BoatSlut 18 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 1993 is the last SH with IOR results https://rolexsydneyhobart.com/standings?categoryId=222&raceId=63&seriesId=2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hughw 54 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 15 hours ago, 45Roller said: Oh god I remember the frame they built aft of the stern to support that mizzen, crazy stuff, dunno how they ever thought it would work Edit, found a picture of it, not too many of them around with her in this configuration... "A good engineer can make anything work. Fortuna may not have had a backstay, but it doesn't look like a freestanding mizzen - looks like there were chainplates and side stays. " Half height stays on the mizzen and then runners. Boat was extended, bumped here and there, but we all wondered what would happen in the deep South or if the additions would part company and do their own thing! Maybe just as well it didn't make it that far... However pace it did have -reaching down the back of the IOW after the start and comment from I forget who was 'Smith's on the pace' Good fun project though, mizzen was 1" shorter than the main mast to qualify...probably still got the files on it somewhere. As you say Jerome, best keep the rumours on the other stick falling off to ourselves:) 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Roller 359 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 16 minutes ago, hughw said: "A good engineer can make anything work. Fortuna may not have had a backstay, but it doesn't look like a freestanding mizzen - looks like there were chainplates and side stays. " Half height stays on the mizzen and then runners. Boat was extended, bumped here and there, but we all wondered what would happen in the deep South or if the additions would part company and do their own thing! Maybe just as well it didn't make it that far... However pace it did have -reaching down the back of the IOW after the start and comment from I forget who was 'Smith's on the pace' Good fun project though, mizzen was 1" shorter than the main mast to qualify...probably still got the files on it somewhere. As you say Jerome, best keep the rumours on the other stick falling off to ourselves:) Great, thanks for the extra information Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cill123 7 Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 On 3/1/2021 at 5:34 PM, fastyacht said: 93 was the Last Gasp for Big Tobacco. Winston, Merit, Fortuna. And it became the 1st instance of Volvo. Too bad Saab didnt get in the fray. 97/98 merit cup & silk cut 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
.......................... 197 Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 I think the answer to your question and not a 93/94 maxi is Pinta the 1992 one-ton built/launched just after the launch of Endeavor (Nov 92). It stayed somewhat based in NZL with Russell Coutts as skipper/tactician, Peter Lester as helmsman, Don Cowie etc. Pinta started 1993 by winning the One Ton Cup in Cagliari, Sardinia sailing for Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron. Pinta then sailed for Germany in the Admirals Cup, which I believe they also won. Those were the last times those events were sailed IOR as stated above .. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
daan62 276 Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 42 minutes ago, .......................... said: I think the answer to your question and not a 93/94 maxi is Pinta the 1992 one-ton built/launched just after the launch of Endeavor (Nov 92). It stayed somewhat based in NZL with Russell Coutts as skipper/tactician, Peter Lester as helmsman, Don Cowie etc. Pinta started 1993 by winning the One Ton Cup in Cagliari, Sardinia sailing for Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron. Pinta then sailed for Germany in the Admirals Cup, which I believe they also won. Those were the last times those events were sailed IOR as stated above .. Pinta '92 during Breskens sailing weekend 2017: 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steam Flyer 5,304 Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 PINTA was also quite a good-looking boat IMHO FB- Doug Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.